Depends on whether you were the stronger or the weaker of the disputing parties, I suspect...
Actually, I disagree. I realize in this oh-so-civilized and politically-correct world I'm a bit of a neanderthal, but as the weaker one in may confrontations growing up, there was a certain finality and satisfaction in just facing your tormentor or opponent and having it out. Many times I was left with the split lip or black eye, but was able to walk away knowing that I'd at least defended my honor. As stupid as it sounds, things were never left to fester long enough to get to Columbine-proportions let alone anything that would be considered a severe beating.
I didn't fight often, but that was because I learned very quickly that my actions had consequences. I learned that it can sometimes hurt as much to punch someone as to get punched. I also learned that to avoid a physical confrontation, I needed to work on my diplomacy and many times my over-all prick-titude.
Kids these days barely get the chance to use harsh-language against each other before an adult steps in. They see people on TV and in the movies getting in horrific fights that would quickly render a real person unconscious or dead, getting right back up again, ready for more. They've never experienced the fear and pain of defeat, let alone the fear and pain of victory. Without an early outlet for small disagreements some people bottle it up until they explode. Often, they just commit suicide, but sometimes they take the small hurts way too far, grab a gun and kill someone. We can sit on the outside, wring our hands and say "Why would someone kill someone else over a little thing like that?" Well, it's not a little thing when you spend your whole life feeling powerless.
When I was a kid you'd never hear about someone shooting up their school. Why? For one thing, half the pickup trucks in the high school parking lot had a rifle in the back window. The kids actually hunted with them and had first-hand knowledge of the damage they did to flesh and what death and blood smells like. They'd never reach for a gun in a fight. They'd lose hand-to-hand first. Second, there was a spot, right off school grounds, that was the de facto fighting spot. You knew, when you were called out where to be and at what time.
If you chose not to show up, you lost and were dishonored. If you showed up, defeated your opponent, and then proceeded to beat him while he was down, you were considered a loser, which was a bigger dishonor that not showing up. If you lost, at least it was over and you were respected for standing up for yourself. The strange part about that was, after the first time a big bully beat a smaller kid there, it rarely happened again. The big bully didn't get near the accolades they'd envisioned after beating up on a weaker kid in full public view of their classmates. In fact, it was usually the weaker kid who came out better in the eyes of their peers. Of course, if you didn't show up you weren't lauded for your passivity, you were scorned for not being willing to stand up for yourself. No one had any respect for someone who wouldn't stand up for themselves (or their girlfriends more often than not).
I love when I hear naive people say "violence doesn't solve anything". Bullshit. Violence almost always solves the problem, one way or the other. It just may not be the best way to solve the problem. But when you've never known real violence, never dealt real violence, it all sort of becomes unreal. When you grow up your whole life being told that pacifism is so noble and everything can be resolved with talking and reason you lose touch with the grim, gritty reality that comes with getting that bloody nose. So when you find yourself in a situation when the other party won't just accept your reason and when you can't find any adults/officials to come to your rescue and make the other party see reason, your sense of frustration grows to the point where the violence you've never experienced takes on a seductive kind of power and finality. You'll show them!
So, is violence the answer? Not always and certainly not first, but when you take the possibility out of the equation all together, you're screwed. I raised my kids to warn them once, warn them twice, then, if they don't stop, give it everything you've got - just be ready to pay the consequences. I can only remember two times in my son's life where he got in a fight. He was expelled once for it. I backed him up, because he'd already proved that going to his teacher and the school counselor didn't work. He'd had enough, he'd warned the kid. I told him the next time the bully hit him he should lay into him with everything he had and to prepare to be hurt. He did, he was, and he was expelled for a week, but the trouble with the bully was over for good.
Like I said, I may not be as civilized and politically-correct as the rest of you young hipsters, and as a rule we geeks tend to be more cerebral than physical anyway, but as a geeky kid growing up I was on the receiving end of a lot of pain until I learned that if the pain was going to come anyway, I might as well take control of it and stand up for myself. Strangely, as soon as I did that, they stopped picking on me...
This is so unbelievably redneck, I'm at a loss for words. That attitude is something out of the 50's or earlier. Taught your kids, huh? Like, that violence solves things. You really think they heard that, warn once warn twice? No what they heard was Dad will back us up if we kick the crap out of someone. Whether that someone had it coming due to their over-all stupidity or not. And, btw, I was never in a fight in high school. Never had a cause and it wasn't because I was intimidating physically. I just h
Thing is, some people just don't deserve respect, and I won't give them any until they show me why I should. Violence might not always be the best way to solve something, but it's usually the fastest.
And, btw, I was never in a fight in high school. Never had a cause and it wasn't because I was intimidating physically. I just had a knack for getting along with people; i.e. I tried to respect everyone.
Translation: you're a pussy "yes man".
That's okay son.. at least you won't get hurt in the boardroom with the other MBAs when I give you a directive as to how you're going to vote.
"This is so unbelievably redneck, I'm at a loss for words. That attitude is something out of the 50's or earlier."
You are expressing that this attitude is incompatible with your emotional preference, not that it is illogical or unsupported by actual results.
"And, btw, I was never in a fight in high school. Never had a cause and it wasn't because I was intimidating physically. I just had a knack for getting along with people; i.e. I tried to respect everyone."
I agree with about everything you've said. However you have to remember "back in the day" in a small town you have only your community and circle to deal with. Now you lose a fight and its on youtube, video cameras everywhere -- constant reminder.
Again, I think a lot of what you say is valid, but its apples and oranges now. We are so wired and high strung with the internet, fashion, riches, good college, etc that there is more stress. Is that an excuse for todays kids or to go kill people? No. However
Best dissertation on the subject I've seen yet. Hope you don't mind if it's spread far and wide.:)
Another point is that when you tell your kid it is right to stand up fairly for himself, and that you're behind him all the way, he develops trust in you as the parent and himself as a competent person.
But if your response to bullying is to take him out of harms way (eg. take him out of school), all he learns is that he's a loser (he must be, since you don't trust him to stand up for himself), and that's how o
To this day the most confident, rational, and competent people I know are the kids I grew up with which got their asses kicked across a parking lot at least once during middle school or high school. Every single one of them got in some good blows themselves and could sit there afterword bleeding out the nose or mouth smiling that they at least had a chance to 'shut that guy up' who wouldn't lay off of of them. It's completely anecdotal, but I have to say that I agree with what you posted in every respect. T
This is all very nice, but if you haven't noticed it's impossible to punch someone over the internet, which is what the article is about.
We haven't established that fact yet. Now shuddup and hold still this time. Remember: You have to keep your eyes closed and sit no further than 2 inches from the screen.
I didn't fight often, but that was because I learned very quickly that my actions had consequences. I learned that it can sometimes hurt as much to punch someone as to get punched. I also learned that to avoid a physical confrontation, I needed to work on my diplomacy and many times my over-all prick-titude.
There is something to be said about the whole "yea he beat you, but really you asked for it". Society becomes a lot more polite when they realize a slug to the face won't land the hitter in jail. Now a days the winners are those who can subtely harass people - you know the people - those who can manipulate the words to antagonize someone but only the victim see's it and it is intended so only the victim see's it. Back in the day - the victim could say "Yea you may be smarter then me with words, but you k
If we accept physical violence as a respectable method for resolving disputes, then women will be at a significant disadvantage (past a certain age). Or would you give different advice to a girl? What about to a boy who doesn't have the courage to fight? Does he deserve the harassment more than someone who does? Regardless, since there's no positive correlation as far as I know between being right and being tough, we potentially reinforce or encourage the behavior of jerks.
Your romanticization of violence sort of falls apart when you stop looking at flukes like Columbine where middle class disaffected teenagers have never experienced violence and start looking at the every day violence in the inner city. Kids don't get shot or stabbed downtown because they've been bottling it up too long.
I don't think that the lack of 1950's 'noble' fighting is what leaves things "to fester long enough to get to Columbine-proportions"
Rather, it is a much greater disparity in wealth between rich and poor, and a consumer culture that has nearly destroyed the core family unit.
In the 50's, a single working father could buy a house, a car, and support his family. That is possible now, if you chose to live as simply as a 50's household did. Smaller house, no cable, no internet, chop your own firewood, get your
In Melbourne, Australia, once upon a time at *all* ages, fights were about honour, pride. One on one, see who wins. These days, at school, you start fighting a person in a one on one fight, and if he starts losing, you'll be jumped by his mates. Or if he loses, he'll come back and attack you behind your back. There's no honour.
At higher ages, or after school, what started off as a fist fight will now lead to people pulling out knives. Hell, there was one instance here a while
You left out something. Once they realize you are weaker they don't stop harassing you simply because they know they can harass you. Because there's a fight, win or lose, doesn't mean it will stop there, and often just escalated everything. I don't know the kind of fights you had but 30 years ago a fight, single or gang, often ended in hospital time for the loser and/or target. Honor??!! Get this, it's not about honor or the locals, just whatever ego/control game the jackass(es) is(are) playing.
I firmly believe that every male should have the crap kicked out of him at some point... we (males) tend to grow up thinking that we are made of plastic and, as you so correctly pointed out, that we are impervious to damage, just like the guys we love to watch on TV. My "epiphany" occurred in the 4th grade, when I, the bully, larger than everyone else in my class, got his butt kicked by a classmate's big sister, publicly, in the school playground. That took the wind out of my little bully sails. After that,
"Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature... Life is
either a daring adventure or nothing."
-- Helen Keller
Your Honor! (Score:5, Funny)
"My client wishes the court to know that the witness, in fact, 'started it'."
Re: (Score:5, Insightful)
I miss the days when disputes were settled on the playground after school. *sigh*
Seemed a much simpler time, didn't it?
Re: (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Your Honor! (Score:4, Interesting)
Depends on whether you were the stronger or the weaker of the disputing parties, I suspect...
Actually, I disagree. I realize in this oh-so-civilized and politically-correct world I'm a bit of a neanderthal, but as the weaker one in may confrontations growing up, there was a certain finality and satisfaction in just facing your tormentor or opponent and having it out. Many times I was left with the split lip or black eye, but was able to walk away knowing that I'd at least defended my honor. As stupid as it sounds, things were never left to fester long enough to get to Columbine-proportions let alone anything that would be considered a severe beating.
I didn't fight often, but that was because I learned very quickly that my actions had consequences. I learned that it can sometimes hurt as much to punch someone as to get punched. I also learned that to avoid a physical confrontation, I needed to work on my diplomacy and many times my over-all prick-titude.
Kids these days barely get the chance to use harsh-language against each other before an adult steps in. They see people on TV and in the movies getting in horrific fights that would quickly render a real person unconscious or dead, getting right back up again, ready for more. They've never experienced the fear and pain of defeat, let alone the fear and pain of victory. Without an early outlet for small disagreements some people bottle it up until they explode. Often, they just commit suicide, but sometimes they take the small hurts way too far, grab a gun and kill someone. We can sit on the outside, wring our hands and say "Why would someone kill someone else over a little thing like that?" Well, it's not a little thing when you spend your whole life feeling powerless.
When I was a kid you'd never hear about someone shooting up their school. Why? For one thing, half the pickup trucks in the high school parking lot had a rifle in the back window. The kids actually hunted with them and had first-hand knowledge of the damage they did to flesh and what death and blood smells like. They'd never reach for a gun in a fight. They'd lose hand-to-hand first. Second, there was a spot, right off school grounds, that was the de facto fighting spot. You knew, when you were called out where to be and at what time.
If you chose not to show up, you lost and were dishonored. If you showed up, defeated your opponent, and then proceeded to beat him while he was down, you were considered a loser, which was a bigger dishonor that not showing up. If you lost, at least it was over and you were respected for standing up for yourself. The strange part about that was, after the first time a big bully beat a smaller kid there, it rarely happened again. The big bully didn't get near the accolades they'd envisioned after beating up on a weaker kid in full public view of their classmates. In fact, it was usually the weaker kid who came out better in the eyes of their peers. Of course, if you didn't show up you weren't lauded for your passivity, you were scorned for not being willing to stand up for yourself. No one had any respect for someone who wouldn't stand up for themselves (or their girlfriends more often than not).
I love when I hear naive people say "violence doesn't solve anything". Bullshit. Violence almost always solves the problem, one way or the other. It just may not be the best way to solve the problem. But when you've never known real violence, never dealt real violence, it all sort of becomes unreal. When you grow up your whole life being told that pacifism is so noble and everything can be resolved with talking and reason you lose touch with the grim, gritty reality that comes with getting that bloody nose. So when you find yourself in a situation when the other party won't just accept your reason and when you can't find any adults/officials to come to your rescue and make the other party see reason, your sense of frustration grows to the point where the violence you've never experienced takes on a seductive kind of power and finality. You'll show them!
So, is violence the answer? Not always and certainly not first, but when you take the possibility out of the equation all together, you're screwed. I raised my kids to warn them once, warn them twice, then, if they don't stop, give it everything you've got - just be ready to pay the consequences. I can only remember two times in my son's life where he got in a fight. He was expelled once for it. I backed him up, because he'd already proved that going to his teacher and the school counselor didn't work. He'd had enough, he'd warned the kid. I told him the next time the bully hit him he should lay into him with everything he had and to prepare to be hurt. He did, he was, and he was expelled for a week, but the trouble with the bully was over for good.
Like I said, I may not be as civilized and politically-correct as the rest of you young hipsters, and as a rule we geeks tend to be more cerebral than physical anyway, but as a geeky kid growing up I was on the receiving end of a lot of pain until I learned that if the pain was going to come anyway, I might as well take control of it and stand up for myself. Strangely, as soon as I did that, they stopped picking on me...
...and I actually got laid.
Re: (Score:2)
Violence almost always solves the problem, one way or the other.
Damn straight! That girl I beat up in grade school never bothered me again. Kept all the other bitches in line, too.
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Then how about I kill you right now? It would solve all kinds of problems!
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
This is so unbelievably redneck, I'm at a loss for words. That attitude is something out of the 50's or earlier.
Taught your kids, huh? Like, that violence solves things. You really think they heard that, warn once warn twice? No what they heard was Dad will back us up if we kick the crap out of someone. Whether that someone had it coming due to their over-all stupidity or not.
And, btw, I was never in a fight in high school. Never had a cause and it wasn't because I was intimidating physically. I just h
Re: (Score:1)
Thing is, some people just don't deserve respect, and I won't give them any until they show me why I should. Violence might not always be the best way to solve something, but it's usually the fastest.
Re: (Score:0)
Translation: you're a pussy "yes man".
That's okay son.. at least you won't get hurt in the boardroom with the other MBAs when I give you a directive as to how you're going to vote.
Re: (Score:2)
"This is so unbelievably redneck, I'm at a loss for words. That attitude is something out of the 50's or earlier."
You are expressing that this attitude is incompatible with your emotional preference, not that it is illogical or unsupported by actual results.
"And, btw, I was never in a fight in high school. Never had a cause and it wasn't because I was intimidating physically. I just had a knack for getting along with people; i.e. I tried to respect everyone."
That's just adorable, but it doesn't work for man
Re: (Score:0)
You are a friend whore with 1200 friends on your facebook, but you don't really know any of them.
Too scared to say what you really think, so everyone manipulates you.
Stand up for yourself.
Re: (Score:0)
I agree with about everything you've said. However you have to remember "back in the day" in a small town you have only your community and circle to deal with. Now you lose a fight and its on youtube, video cameras everywhere -- constant reminder.
Again, I think a lot of what you say is valid, but its apples and oranges now. We are so wired and high strung with the internet, fashion, riches, good college, etc that there is more stress. Is that an excuse for todays kids or to go kill people? No. However
Re: (Score:2)
Best dissertation on the subject I've seen yet. Hope you don't mind if it's spread far and wide. :)
Another point is that when you tell your kid it is right to stand up fairly for himself, and that you're behind him all the way, he develops trust in you as the parent and himself as a competent person.
But if your response to bullying is to take him out of harms way (eg. take him out of school), all he learns is that he's a loser (he must be, since you don't trust him to stand up for himself), and that's how o
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
You're so macho, I'm sure if I was female I'd conceive just by reading your words over the internets.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:hold still dammit (Score:0)
This is all very nice, but if you haven't noticed it's impossible to punch someone over the internet, which is what the article is about.
We haven't established that fact yet. Now shuddup and hold still this time.
Remember: You have to keep your eyes closed and sit no further than 2 inches from the screen.
Ready? one, two, three, ...
Re: (Score:0)
Kudos
Re: (Score:2, Troll)
I didn't fight often, but that was because I learned very quickly that my actions had consequences. I learned that it can sometimes hurt as much to punch someone as to get punched. I also learned that to avoid a physical confrontation, I needed to work on my diplomacy and many times my over-all prick-titude.
There is something to be said about the whole "yea he beat you, but really you asked for it". Society becomes a lot more polite when they realize a slug to the face won't land the hitter in jail. Now a days the winners are those who can subtely harass people - you know the people - those who can manipulate the words to antagonize someone but only the victim see's it and it is intended so only the victim see's it. Back in the day - the victim could say "Yea you may be smarter then me with words, but you k
Re: (Score:2)
Behind the hockey rink after school! Fighting spot indeed. Makes me wonder if such still goes on there.
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Besides, I should be able t
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Re: (Score:0)
Geezer's disease; also known is "in my day" syndrome.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Your romanticization of violence sort of falls apart when you stop looking at flukes like Columbine where middle class disaffected teenagers have never experienced violence and start looking at the every day violence in the inner city. Kids don't get shot or stabbed downtown because they've been bottling it up too long.
Re: (Score:2)
I don't think that the lack of 1950's 'noble' fighting is what leaves things "to fester long enough to get to Columbine-proportions"
Rather, it is a much greater disparity in wealth between rich and poor, and a consumer culture that has nearly destroyed the core family unit.
In the 50's, a single working father could buy a house, a car, and support his family. That is possible now, if you chose to live as simply as a 50's household did. Smaller house, no cable, no internet, chop your own firewood, get your
Re: (Score:2)
I wish shit was still like that.
In Melbourne, Australia, once upon a time at *all* ages, fights were about honour, pride. One on one, see who wins. These days, at school, you start fighting a person in a one on one fight, and if he starts losing, you'll be jumped by his mates. Or if he loses, he'll come back and attack you behind your back. There's no honour.
At higher ages, or after school, what started off as a fist fight will now lead to people pulling out knives. Hell, there was one instance here a while
Re: (Score:1)
You left out something. Once they realize you are weaker they don't stop harassing you simply because they know they can harass you. Because there's a fight, win or lose, doesn't mean it will stop there, and often just escalated everything. I don't know the kind of fights you had but 30 years ago a fight, single or gang, often ended in hospital time for the loser and/or target. Honor??!! Get this, it's not about honor or the locals, just whatever ego/control game the jackass(es) is(are) playing.
Re: (Score:0)
Kids in America grew up like this, and the US called itself a "civilized" country?
Re: (Score:1)
My "epiphany" occurred in the 4th grade, when I, the bully, larger than everyone else in my class, got his butt kicked by a classmate's big sister, publicly, in the school playground.
That took the wind out of my little bully sails. After that,