What country are YOU living in? Here in America (by which I mean the USA and Canada), punishment rarely fits the crime. If you steal a billion dollars from investors, you'll be asked to retire and pay a fine. Steal a hundred dollars from a liquour store, and you'll get twenty years in jail.
Pirating films isn't white-collar enough to warrant a light sentence. The only crimes that have stiff sentences are the ones that wealthy people don't commit.
Here in America (by which I mean the USA and Canada), punishment rarely fits the crime. If you steal a billion dollars from investors, you'll be asked to retire and pay a fine. Steal a hundred dollars from a liquour store, and you'll get twenty years in jail.
Ah yes, but most people who steal from liquor stores have commited many other crimes, and are likely to commit a lot more, whereas white collar criminals tend to only commit one crime.
Ah yes, but most people who steal from liquor stores have committed many other crimes, and are likely to commit a lot more, whereas white collar criminals tend to only commit one crime.
Huh, that's funny. I'd have sworn Dennis Koslowski [nydailynews.com] is accused not only of looting his own company, but tax evasion in the millions as well -- and various conspiracies to cover up his alleged crimes.
Not to mention the allegations against Ken Lay and the other alleged Enron conspirators : not only are they alleged to have conned their own investors, they are also alleged to have manufactured fake power shortages in order to over-charge California, according to seized tapes: [cbsnews.com]
"They're fucking taking all the money back from you guys?" complains an Enron employee on the tapes. "All the money you guys stole from those poor grandmothers in California?"
"Yeah, grandma Millie, man"
"Yeah, now she wants her fucking money back for all the power you've charged right up, jammed right up her asshole for fucking $250 a megawatt hour."
And the tapes appear to link top Enron officials Ken Lay and Jeffrey Skilling to schemes that fueled the crisis.
"Government Affairs has to prove how valuable it is to Ken Lay and Jeff Skilling," says one trader.
But even if you were correct in claiming that "white collar criminals tend to only commit one crime", if that single crime nets the criminal millions of dollars, well, those ill-gotten gains will last a lifetime longer than the take from knocking over a liqueur store.
I'm sure that if by robbing a liqueur store you could make millions, the hold up men would be happy to retire afterward -- or be driven out of thievery by competition from greedy MBAs.
But tell me one thing: why are you so willing to be sympathetic to those who steal the investments of pensioners and pension plans in order to live it up yachting on the Riviera, and so unsympathetic to the poor junkie from the projects who just wants to steal enough to get by for one more miserable day?
Why do we allow the wealthy to bend us over and rob us, and then fawn all over them at their parole parties? Why do we beleive that a CEO really "earns" a salary plus benefits in the tens of millions of dollars, while the average worker gets his jib outsourced?
Is it because we respect wealth -- earned or stolen -- so much, or just because we respect ourselves so little?
Is this still the country that Jefferson and the Adamses risked their "lives, fortunes, and scared honors" for, or some European-style feudalism with the thieving rich taking the place of an idle aristocracy?
Is this still the country that Jefferson and the Adamses risked their "lives, fortunes, and scared honors" for, or some European-style feudalism with the thieving rich taking the place of an idle aristocracy?
Seriously, how do you think the European aristocracy came into being? It was rich and wealthy merchants using their money and power to buy themselves rights and more power. America is not a classless society, it just defines its classes differently. Your powerful families are growing just as they did in Europe hundreds of years ago - basically same system, different part of the curve.
Seriously, how do you think the European aristocracy came into being? It was rich and wealthy merchants using their money and power to buy themselves rights and more power.
Hmm. I'm not an expert on European history, but that isn't how the English aristocracy came into being -- it was from conquerors running around. I would venture to guess that most European aristocracy actually came up from conquest.
Seriously, how do you think the European aristocracy came into being? It was rich and wealthy merchants using their money and power to buy themselves rights and more power.
This isn't entirely correct. A nobility title came with land (a feud), not with wealth. You could be piss poor and still be an aristocrate, and then again, in the Middle Ages, you could be the richest merchant in the world and still not hold any title. This was, at least in part, because of religion: trading was considered to be usury (for obvioud reasons -- noone would sell goods for the price they bought them), and usury was considered to be a mortal sin.
Yes, i know about the Hanseatic League. In fact, i live in one of the former Hanse cities. But i don't see what difference it should make, as even the Hanseatic merchants, as rich and powerful as they may have been, were still outside the nobility hierarchies.
Point of fact: Trading was never considered usury. Usury is (in the Judeo-Christian-Muslim tradition) charging interest on loans, at least to your co-religionists.
The fact that the aristocrats considered it beneath them to engage in manufacturing or trade is one of the factors that led to their eventual demise as the ruling class in Europe.
Well, trading wasn't exactly usury, but it was still considered to be something just as bad, as it meant taking more than you needed to survive and this was also a sin. Furthermore, trading was usually coupled with "usury," as you still needed to acquire some capital to start trading.
You, my friend, need to sit down and catch up on your Neal Stephenson reading. In particular, you need to cozy up with one or both of the books in the Baroque Cycle (Quicksilver or The Confusion), and educate yourself about what the European aristocracy actually consisted of, and how they interacted with the wealthy merchants. You could of course just go and pick up a few history books, but Stephenson has been nice enough to condense a lot of information into a couple of volumes, and to wrap it in an engro
Here follows the transcript from a "Daily Show Exclusive" tape of a phone call between Trader One and Grandma Millie herself. ----- GRANDMA MILLIE: "Hello?"
TRADER ONE: "Hi. Is this Grandma Millie?"
GRANDMA MILLIE: "Yes, dear?"
TRADER ONE: "I'm taking your energy, bitch!"
GRANDMA MILLIE: "What?"
TRADER ONE: "HA! HA!"
GRANDMA MILLIE: "But I need energy to bake pies for the little orphans..."
Actually, if you research the American Revolution and the civil unrest among the poor during it's time, you will realize that laws in this country have always favored the rich. Shortly after the Declaration of Independence, laws were passed to restrict all but the wealthiest ten percent of the population from holding office (restricted by stipulations of vast land ownership). Also, the rich could buy their way out of military service, while the poor could not. This, in addition to the fact that the poor saw
Why do we allow the wealthy to bend us over and rob us, and then fawn all over them at their parole parties? Why do we beleive that a CEO really "earns" a salary plus benefits in the tens of millions of dollars, while the average worker gets his jib outsourced?
These questions are not related. Not that it should be considered good, but corporate theft is slower and less obviously painful than a knifing. Celebrating crooks at their parole is something that people of bad character have done for centuries.
So
The amount of weight an evangelist carries with the almighty is measured
in billigrahams.
You'd get less time... (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm not standing up for the crime, but isn't the punishment supposed to match it?
Sickening...
What Country are YOU living in? (Score:5, Insightful)
Pirating films isn't white-collar enough to warrant a light sentence. The only crimes that have stiff sentences are the ones that wealthy people don't commit.
Re:What Country are YOU living in? (Score:0, Troll)
Ah yes, but most people who steal from liquor stores have commited many other crimes, and are likely to commit a lot more, whereas white collar criminals tend to only commit one crime.
Re:What Country are YOU living in? (Score:5, Insightful)
Huh, that's funny. I'd have sworn Dennis Koslowski [nydailynews.com] is accused not only of looting his own company, but tax evasion in the millions as well -- and various conspiracies to cover up his alleged crimes.
Not to mention the allegations against Ken Lay and the other alleged Enron conspirators : not only are they alleged to have conned their own investors, they are also alleged to have manufactured fake power shortages in order to over-charge California, according to seized tapes: [cbsnews.com]
But even if you were correct in claiming that "white collar criminals tend to only commit one crime", if that single crime nets the criminal millions of dollars, well, those ill-gotten gains will last a lifetime longer than the take from knocking over a liqueur store.
I'm sure that if by robbing a liqueur store you could make millions, the hold up men would be happy to retire afterward -- or be driven out of thievery by competition from greedy MBAs.
But tell me one thing: why are you so willing to be sympathetic to those who steal the investments of pensioners and pension plans in order to live it up yachting on the Riviera, and so unsympathetic to the poor junkie from the projects who just wants to steal enough to get by for one more miserable day?
Why do we allow the wealthy to bend us over and rob us, and then fawn all over them at their parole parties? Why do we beleive that a CEO really "earns" a salary plus benefits in the tens of millions of dollars, while the average worker gets his jib outsourced?
Is it because we respect wealth -- earned or stolen -- so much, or just because we respect ourselves so little?
Is this still the country that Jefferson and the Adamses risked their "lives, fortunes, and scared honors" for, or some European-style feudalism with the thieving rich taking the place of an idle aristocracy?
Re:What Country are YOU living in? (Score:5, Insightful)
Is this still the country that Jefferson and the Adamses risked their "lives, fortunes, and scared honors" for, or some European-style feudalism with the thieving rich taking the place of an idle aristocracy?
Seriously, how do you think the European aristocracy came into being? It was rich and wealthy merchants using their money and power to buy themselves rights and more power. America is not a classless society, it just defines its classes differently. Your powerful families are growing just as they did in Europe hundreds of years ago - basically same system, different part of the curve.
Re:What Country are YOU living in? (Score:2)
Hmm. I'm not an expert on European history, but that isn't how the English aristocracy came into being -- it was from conquerors running around. I would venture to guess that most European aristocracy actually came up from conquest.
Re:What Country are YOU living in? (Score:2)
If it wasn't for the fact that genocide and ethnic cleansing wasn't a war crime a century ago, we'd have had a lot of ancient aristocrats in jail.
Re:What Country are YOU living in? (Score:5, Interesting)
This isn't entirely correct. A nobility title came with land (a feud), not with wealth. You could be piss poor and still be an aristocrate, and then again, in the Middle Ages, you could be the richest merchant in the world and still not hold any title. This was, at least in part, because of religion: trading was considered to be usury (for obvioud reasons -- noone would sell goods for the price they bought them), and usury was considered to be a mortal sin.
Re:What Country are YOU living in? (Score:1)
Re:What Country are YOU living in? (Score:2)
The fact that the aristocrats considered it beneath them to engage in manufacturing or trade is one of the factors that led to their eventual demise as the ruling class in Europe.
Re:What Country are YOU living in? (Score:1)
Re:What Country are YOU living in? (Score:2)
Re:What Country are YOU living in? (Score:1)
-----
GRANDMA MILLIE: "Hello?"
TRADER ONE: "Hi. Is this Grandma Millie?"
GRANDMA MILLIE: "Yes, dear?"
TRADER ONE: "I'm taking your energy, bitch!"
GRANDMA MILLIE: "What?"
TRADER ONE: "HA! HA!"
GRANDMA MILLIE: "But I need energy to bake pies for the little orphans..."
TRADER ONE: "Well, your orphans can eat my ass!"
GRANDMA MILLIE: "Oh dear lord..."
TRADER ONE: "God can't help you now,
Re:What Country are YOU living in? (Score:2)
Hey, there's big money in anisette.
rj
Re:What Country are YOU living in? (Score:2)
Re:What Country are YOU living in? (Score:2)
Re:What Country are YOU living in? (Score:3)
Re:What Country are YOU living in? (Score:2)
These questions are not related. Not that it should be considered good, but corporate theft is slower and less obviously painful than a knifing. Celebrating crooks at their parole is something that people of bad character have done for centuries.
So