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Etoy: It's Not Over Yet
from the top-of-the-ninth dept.
It's one thing to drop a lawsuit. It's another to "move away" from it. According to Chris Truax, the lawyer for the Etoy art group, which version the media heard depended on what time they were in touch with the eToys management. The initial version, he claims, was that eToys was dropping the suit. A later version was that they were "backing away" from the suit. A third version reassured the press that a precondition specified in the legal document was never intended to be a demand - only a request.
To see how the coverage changed throughout Wednesday, see the first Wired story, then the NYT/CNET story, the Yahoo/TheStandard story, and then the second Wired story.
The problem was that eToys.legal was not working from the same playbook as eToys.PR. The precondition, clearly a showstopper, also calls into question whether the giant toy firm has a clue about what is really at stake.
That precondition was:
"to give good faith consideration, as our neighbor on the Internet, to concentrating the profanity, nudity and violence that is sometimes part of the etoy corporation message on etoy corporation's other websites."
Asking artists to censor their work, of course, flies like a lead wheelbarrow. At the same time the company spokesman was saying "our intent was never to silence free artistic expression," their legal team was doing precisely that. The entire short letter in which this request was made was focused on finding a resolution to the perceived problem of "profanity, nudity, and violence," and concluded by noting that co-existence was possible if "etoy corporation will respond favorably to this proposal."
The later Wired story quotes eToys management as putting this spin on it:
"This is a simple, straightforward, good-faith effort on our part to resolve this matter. We are asking that they make good-faith efforts to put some of the material that kids and parents might find offensive on another part of the site."
They can repeat the words "good faith" all they like, but that doesn't make this any less censorship. Imagine operating as an artist, knowing that for the rest of your tenure with the Etoy art group you must work very carefully not to put material inappropriate for children too close to your homepage. One use of the F-word already led to this lawsuit; how hair-trigger would the lawyers be the second time around? You'd want to tone down your message, lest you be accused of working in "bad faith."
But maybe this letter was just badly worded; perhaps there was a miscommunication somewhere between the PR and the legal departments.
Or, maybe this whole episode was a cynical attempt to calm down the activist community and get the story out of the public eye.
Think about what eToys is really saying. They have cost the art group a fair amount of money in legal bills and have shut down their website for (to date) a month. Now they say they want to walk away as long as Etoy does the same.
If someone came onto your property, stole your computer - and then a month later, after you'd spent thousands of dollars trying to get it back, offered to return it on the condition that you promised not to sue - would you be inclined to accept that condition?
How would you feel if they asked you to make a "good-faith effort" not to use your computer to write any "profanity"?
Chris Truax stopped short of saying whether Etoy would or would not continue their defensive countersuit if eToys' original suit were dropped, saying only "if the suit is dropped unilaterally, that's a very positive step." In my talks with him, he has seemed committed to finding a way to settle this matter without resorting to a knock-down, drag-out court battle, and he has said he'd like to help eToys management to educate themselves about being good netizens.
But he also pointed out several times that "the devil is in the details." And, of course, he's right. This whole mess won't be over until it's over.
It's a shame that the courts are still seeing issues like these at the end of 1999; those in positions of power should have learned about being good netizens by now. Etoy's story isn't all that unusual. While the art group has been under fire, there have been simultaneous attacks on the scholarly arts organization Leonardo and a computer club which happens to share the same initials as the BBC. Stay tuned.
Ankles! (Score:3)
Even if Etoy wasn't art (Score:3)
Push this case! (Score:3)
EToys, NSI, US Justice System to Blame (Score:3)
required additional viewing: (Score:5)
Protest.net's overview of this mess [protest.net]
RTMarks's etoy page [rtmark.com]
ETOYS stock value [altavista.com] in the past month accoring to Alta Vista
A better stock picture [yahoo.com] from yahoo.
At this rate, ETOYS will be worthless soon enough. How low does it have to fall before it simply ceases to exist in it's current form? In this age of internet stocks being so highly valued how can ETOYS not realize the damage this has caused them? How can they be so blind?
Perhaps they have forgotten that we talk to each other. Perhaps they have forgotten that we can hear all sides of the stories. perhaps they have forgotten that we could have been their market and their investors had they not done this.
Perhaps they're just blind.
Re:Even if Etoy wasn't art (Score:3)
Man's unique agony as a species consists in his perpetual conflict between the desire to stand out and the need to blend in.
Countersuit (Score:3)
I'm sure we don't know the full story (Score:4)
IF eToys argument is "hey, do what you like, but can you keep the stuff that's age-inappropriate off the public pages", then I don't see the problem. Anyone capable of setting up a web page is more than capable of setting up an .htaccess file, and anyone capable of thought is capable of deciding if something is "age-inappropriate".
That's not censorship, as it doesn't tell anyone what they can do or say, it merely says "uh - can everyone agree to be mature about this?" I don't see anything the matter with that. It doesn't hurt to use your noggin.
But that's a BIG "if", and the implication of the article was that their legal department didn't necessarily think the same way.
If the eToys argument is that "you show what we say, and nothing more", then they deserve to be forced to eat Haggis, Black Pudding and mushy peas, with HP sauce. On National Television. Without throwing up. Even after being told what goes in them.
I don't agree with censorship, but I don't have any problem with two web sites trying to find some kind of common ground so that they can talk this over like human beings.
damn pr stunts... (Score:3)
ETOYS DROPS SUIT AGAINST ARTISTS. Public outcry led toy site to abandon action against artists using eToy.com.
Uh huh... "dropped" the lawsuit eh? Ya don't say. I wonder how much this "ad space" cost Etoys? :)
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The Virtual Suburbs? (Score:5)
eToys apparently still doesn't get it. Internet was never meant to be a shopping mall. Yes, commerce can succeed in this medium, but that does not neccesarily make this a shopping mall.
Internet is a neighborhood. This means that there's a great variety of resources here. Sure, there's stores, and some of them make a lot of money. There are also gathering places, theatres (some of them pretty bleeding-edge, like etoy), workshops, and homes. This neighborhood has been here, and has grown, long before eToys ever came on the scene. Now, eToys is saying, "We want this neighborhood to become a shopping mall." And they'll tear down the whole damn neighborhood to do it.
Ultimately what these companies want is not a bazaar, not a whole new world, not a new medium of communication; but a virtual suburb. Where everything is clean (or else), there are no angry people, no controversial opinions or expressions, and everyone is free, so long as what they want to do is make money. A virtual suburb that is safe for sheltered suburban children raised in good Mayburyish homes, where they can learn that Internet is safe, inoffensive, secure, protected. A virtual suburb where you don't find anything that might even vaguely disturb you. Where the music is soothing, the pictures are pretty, and you can make your dreams come true by entering your credit card number and expiration date. Don't worry, that information, along with all your other information, won't be handed off to anyone who might hurt you (just to other people who want to sell to you).
There's just one problem. Even if they get their way, it's all pure bullshit. Internet is not secure, will never be secure. Real life is full of controversey, different ideas, and shocking truths. If they get shoved off of Internet, they'll just move to another network, albeit perhaps a more exclusive one (think back to the BBS days). Moreover, the information you hand out is not safe. The difference is, today, if it's not safe, you'll find out quickly. Tomorrow, if it's not safe, you may never find out. Not unless you're on one of those BBS'es. Or unless it's already too late.
It doesn't have to turn out this way. We can win this fight. We're smart enough; together, we're rich enough; and we have enough to lose to keep us motivated in this fight.
As a note, I noticed today that eToys stock is at a 52-week low. Maybe it's time eToys figured out a new strategy?
Prolly just a correction (Score:3)
Speaking frankly, and keep in mind I'm not a securities trader or a financial analyst or a lawyer or whatever...for a long time, eToys was worth more than Mattel and Hasbro combined. That's the two largest toy makers in the US. As of today, eToys is worth less than either Mattel or Hasbro, even if only by a little. This makes more sense. eToys's income is far, far less than that of either company, and eToys is less established. If you ask me, this is probably just a correction, and a much-needed one.
It's true that their stock is almost at a 52-week low. But this doesn't necessarily mean that they're mishandling the business. I would be very surprised if investors started suing them over this.
Re:I'm sure we don't know the full story (Score:4)
Talking things over like human beings doesn't include suing for and recieving an injunction against someone's livelihood, shutting them down, going so far as to remove their email access, and then sending a preliminary olive branch after your biggest retail season is over. I don't think etoys should be treated with any respect at this point, nor should they be able to mandate any terms of surrender. If justice were to be served, they would be shut down themselves for a month, just to even the score.
Some of us geeks have children! (Score:3)
Which reminds me... i should send them another letter telling them that i won't be satisfied until they have unilaterally and unconditionally dropped everything against etoy.
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Re:I'm sure we don't know the full story (Score:4)
Please don't take this personally, but I believe it is exactly the kind of attitude potrayed in this post that allows the erosion of democracy and freedom to occur around events like this eToys vs. etoy business.
Of course /. has editorial bias. /. is, in theory, run by humans. Humans have biases. /. puts a lot of effort into and does a very good job at keeping editorial bias to a minimum. I believe that's why it has the level of community participation it does.
Why is it that we "don't hear all sides of the story" when (American) business or financial interests are threatened? Do you think we've heard "all sides of the story" surrounding the probable intentional bombing of of the Chinese embassy during the Kosovo conflict? Have we heard all sides of the story regarding the brutal police suppression of non-violent activists in Seattle recently? (Yes, I realize that there were some violent protestors as well. But also keep in mind that there are many eyewitness accounts of 'plant' activity. i.e. people purposefully trying to agitate the crowd and handcuffing them with plastic handcuffs when they join in.)
It seems that when the equity income of pampered knowledge workers is in question, we "haven't heard all sides of the story". When we have undisputed facts regarding an attack on democracy and freedom, it's irrelevant.
There are a couple of undisputed facts here:
Even assuming that eToy's argument is what you claim it is, do you honestly believe they have the right to that argument? I certainly don't. It would be an extremely slippery slope to allow corporation to police network content around their "domain neighborhoods".
I also think we should be extremely wary of your assumption that "age-appropriateness" is a good thing. It has been proven time and again in other mediums that conrtols on information for the perceived benefit of the "innocent" are no subsitute for a supportive community. Look at the populatiry of (shudder) Christianity. To beg "the system" for controls on information to protect our progeny is shrugging off parental responsibility to an outside agency. We should be addressing the problems and concerns that are preventing parents from developing supportive communities in their homes (i.e. insane work hours, the engineering of materialistic market-mania in youth (Pokemon, etc.), etc.) rather than abdicating our responsibility to someone or something else and then bitching when it is ineffective.
Re:Some of us geeks have children! (Score:3)
I am making my position to them (politely)clear in another window as I type this.
Re:Should have realized this would happen... (Score:3)
Now we turn to big corporations and small organizations. Same story.
eToys death watch? (Score:3)
According to eToys' [yahoo.com] stock history, they've dropped from almost $80/share to ~$25.50/share.
Does anyone have a really credible analysis on this? I found some ideas over at the Red Herring [redherring.com]. Toys R Us is down to $14.13, $10 off its yearly high. The entire online toy purchasing industry is suffering from a lack of confidence, resulting (reportedly) from their inability to fill toy orders on time.
While customers of other toy makers (Toys R Us) and KBKids professed (at a rate exceeding 40%) they wouldn't shop there again, the rate of terminal dissatisfaction with eToys is 12%.
My prediction is that eToys' stock will rebound. The eToys death watch will be an excruciatingly slow event and will suffer quite an ugly setback as eToys (in my non-investor prediction) gets out of the hospital bed around early Spring, the time by which eToys will most likely have gotten their butts in gear with regards to meeting customer orders. They will either have more efficient fulfillment techniques, or customers will buy earlier, but in either case this major depressant upon their stock value will be lifted away by April.
So is there cause for despair? Yes and no. Surely we cannot avoid eating a few crow feathers here and there when eToys' stock rebounds. But the way to keep the whole crow from being stuffed down, i.e. the way to keep their stock from rebounding too far, and perhaps even drag it down to sub-$20 levels, is rather clear.
1) If you know of any online artist groups, inform them about the eToy vs eToys issue. The artist community does not suffer this crap very easily.
2) If you know of any non-online artist groups of any sort - stores, galleries, you name it - let them know, also.
There is the more drastic and difficult theory, also:
3) Gather donations and fund an ad in USA Today, documenting the tragedy of eToys' attack on etoy.com. Express it as an attack on artistic free expression by means fraudulent legal tactics (false patent claims, etc.), under an atmosphere of judicial ignorance favoring the biggest-mouthed, deepest-pocketed lawyers. Call for a boycott on eToys.com.
You have to find ways to create massive tides of bad press for eToys - this and this alone will create a major dampener on their stock value. This should start right now, while their stock is down, so as to depress the upcoming rebound as eToys prepares a mission plan to prevent their previous customer fulfillment failures from happening again.
Now I've checked USA Today for their information on the costs of a full page ad [usatoday.com], and the rates are almost $11,000 for a 1/16 page ad, up to $81K for a full pager. It ain't cheap. Of course the bigger the ad the more people are going to notice it, but I think even at 1/16th page it is still going to cause major press, and grab the attention of a lot of people.
What do y'all think?
Open Letter to Mr. Malda (Score:3)
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We request that you take your website, slashdot.org, offline immediately and delete any and all files relating to the site in any manner whatsoever. You will also be responsible for removing each and every link on the Internet that points to slashdot.org or any of its pages. Failure to comply will result in a mega-huge monster of a lawsuit -- don't fuck with us, we've got more money than you do.
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Please contact your legal department if you have any questions. (Don't bother with the PR department, they know nothing. Buncha monkeys think we've been keeping good relations with you folks for months, and have even offered to buy your domain name for a huge sum of cash. Ha, what morons.)
Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year,
The CrashDot.org Inc. & Co. Legal Team.
due dilligence (Score:3)
Many Internet companies, in fact, buy confusable domains outright. eToys should have tried to acquire the etoy.com domain name before they got started.
Either eToys didn't do their homework, or they decided early on that they didn't care about the confusability issue. Either way, it's the responsibility of eToys, not etoy.com, no matter what etoy.com content is.
Besides, the etoy.com content doesn't seem "adult" by European standards. Why should US hangups and prudishness dictate what the rest of the world can see on the Internet?
You say "editorial bias" like it's a bad thing (Score:4)
No editorial bias on Slashdot? Excuse me? This is one of the most biased ``news'' outlets you'll ever see!
And that's fine.
People, even people who write for the news, should have opinions. That's their job. If their job was ``just the facts'' then we might as well all just read press releases instead.
This notion of ``journalistic neutrality'' was invented by the wire services late last century in order to be able to sell their stories to both Democratic and Republican papers. They found that stories that didn't express opinions were saleable to a wider market, and so if they kept up the charade that both sides of an argument had merit, they made more money.
Sometimes both sides of an argument don't have merit. Some times one side is just wrong. Analysis of current events is the most important part of journalism, and yet today people treat it like it's a bug rather than a feature.
Getting the facts right is an important part of journalism, but so is spelling. Explaining what the facts mean is the most important part, and that usually can't be done without expressing an opinion. (Opinions being what is pejoratively refered to as ``bias'' by people who hold opposing opinions.)
Re:required additional viewing - new Wired story (Score:3)
Apparently they're enjoying the situation and getting ready to launch an online game. There's a lot of really enjoyable things in this article. It brought a smile to my face to see the chaos that they have planned. A new web site, games, a music CD. I'm liking it!
What case? (Score:3)
I'm sorry, but on what exactly is e-toys case based? I don't see it.
There are four families of possible causes of action. From what I've read in the papers (I have NOT seen any of the actual court documents) none of them works:
I think the judge was wrong to grant the injunction. Some combination of talk about securities fraud, other bad things, the xmas rush, the home town advantage, judicial error, whatever, produced the injunction. I don't see how it could have survived an appeal. Or am I missing some fact somewhere? Anyone seen the actual court papers?
To my eye it's no wonder etoys is trying to drop the case.
A. Michael Froomkin [mailto],
U. Miami School of Law,POB 248087
Coral Gables, FL 33124,USA
Re:required additional viewing: TOYWAR.com (Score:3)