Slashdot Log In
Court Reinstates Proof-of-Age Requirement For Nude Ads
Posted by
timothy
on Sat Feb 21, 2009 05:36 PM
from the barely-legal dept.
from the barely-legal dept.
arbitraryaardvark writes "An Ohio swinger's magazine objects to keeping proof on file that its advertisers are over 18. I reported here in 2007 that the 6th circuit struck down U.S.C. Title 18, Section 2257 as a First Amendment violation. The full 6th circuit has now overturned that ruling. The case might continue to the Supreme Court. The Cleveland Plain Dealer reports."
Related Stories
[+]
Court Strikes Down Age Verification For Adult Sites 359 comments
How Appealing reports that a court has struck down age verification requirements for porn sites, as a First Amendment violation. Here is the ruling (PDF). While the average reader here has never been to such a site, porn has been a driving force in the economics and technology of the Net. The age verification requirements of U.S.C. Title 18, Section 2257 were yet another attempt to regulate to death what the government can't outright prohibit. The requirements intruded on the privacy and safety of performers and created headaches for sites like flickr and photobucket that host images. It is has long been thought that the requirements wouldn't hold up in court, but this is the first actual ruling.
This discussion has been archived.
No new comments can be posted.
The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.
Full
Abbreviated
Hidden
Loading... please wait.
SOP (Score:5, Insightful)
It should just be SOP that you have a proof of age statement for ANY model that could potentially be seen as underage, file it right along side the model release form - and call it a day. A little extra insurance saves tons of headaches later in life, and a little prudence and CYA never killed anyone in this lawsuit-happy world.
Re:SOP (Score:5, Interesting)
The OP is correct, it's sensible advice. As a filmmaker and photographer I always do get forms signed and ID from models. It's extremely annoying to have to do that, but it's insurance nonetheless. Never underestimate the stupidity of humanity when it comes to anything sex-related.
Parent
Re:SOP (Score:5, Insightful)
I know we must all Think of Children all the time, but what if you had to continually register your possessions to prove you didn't steal them, or continually register your driving speed to prove you weren't speeding? We'd be all up in arms over the outrageous unconstitutionality of such laws. But point a camera at a naked body and all of the sudden it's ok to have laws just like Singapore or China.
> Never underestimate the stupidity of humanity when it comes to anything sex-related.
Indeed. Especially Americans.
Parent
Re:SOP (Score:4, Insightful)
As a United States citizen, taxpayer, voter, and veteran, I must say that I live in a country of pussies. I am trying to get my fiancee to go to a nudist event when it warms up a little: just a bunch of people swimming in a pool, nothing sexual, honestly it is just comfortable. She has a hard time imagining anyone seeing her naked. I explained it like this. Even fully clothed, everyone knows what she looks like naked. It is no secret that she has breasts and a vagina. Hell, half the human population has that. The other half tries to see it as much as possible anyway.
There should not be anything taboo about a naked human body, yet our society insists on making it so. As a group, we mistakenly blur the line between nudity and sex, especially sex that should be taboo and illegal: rape, incest, child molestation. We blur the line so much until the issues become as one, and use fear-mongering to keep opposing ideas in check. That is the greater crime: legislating morality.
As for the original topic: I am not opposed to such a law if worded correctly. It should not burden advertisers or publishers. Regardless of what the law says or if there is one at all, I believe it would be wise to have this information recorded somewhere. Whether the onus is on the advertiser or on the publisher, if anyone has any doubts about the age of the model, they need to record it. Copy the model's state-issued ID, and record the date the photograph was taken. Have a simple, one or two line document that states something along the lines of "based on the government-issued ID, I believe this model is of the legal age to get naked in front of a camera." Have the model, photographer, and someone able to execute contracts at the advertising agency sign it. It could literally take five minutes. Slap it in a filing cabinet indexed in a way that makes sense, scan it to PDF, whatever. Cover your ass. Even if there is no law requiring this, someone could still file a lawsuit: exploiting children is illegal regardless of this specific law.
Parent
Re:SOP (Score:5, Funny)
3 to 5 years jail time.
Parent
Re:SOP (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:SOP (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:Idea... (Score:4, Funny)
Parent
Re:Idea... (Score:5, Funny)
Yep. There is a bright future in governmental service for that gentleman.
Parent
Re:Any model? (Score:4, Funny)
it's pretty implicit if not entirely explicit (no pun intended) under this topic heading that we're talking about nude models. I am stupider for reading your comment.
Parent
Re:SOP (Score:4, Informative)
I have photographs of both of my children naked. Certainly I have photos from the delivery room. I even have pictures of their fist baths, and one of my younger son pissing on my ex-wife while she bathed him.
The difference is I am not publishing these photographs, nor do I use them in a sexual context. It is the difference between nudity and sexuality. At the very least, if such a law were in effect, someone would need to see them, suffer some sort of harm (or claim that I harmed my children), and then file a lawsuit. Even if it is technically illegal, a judge wants to see that someone was hurt in some way before agreeing to hear a lawsuit.
Parent
oblig. (Score:5, Insightful)
This Thread Is Worthless Without Pictures.
Re:oblig. (Score:5, Funny)
It's a swingers' magazine. Do you have any idea what swingers look like? Trust me... the lack of pictures is a plus.
Parent
Picture Collectors (Score:5, Interesting)
The proof-of-age thing really hits picture collectors hard. For those pictures that do not have a site tag on them, if questioned, the collector must be able to come up with proof-of age. The only thing a court needs to convict you of possession of child pornography is 'reasonable suspicion' that the subject of the photo is underage and the pose is considered 'sexual.' There are many models out there that are well above the age of consent that might raise suspicions.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
The only thing a court needs to convict you of possession of child pornography is 'reasonable suspicion' that the subject of the photo is underage and the pose is considered 'sexual.'
So, what about Lady Justice? Wasn't the model for that statue 12 or so?
Re:Picture Collectors (Score:5, Insightful)
If you think the Lady Justice statue is sexual in nature, you've got problems.
Parent
Who cares? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Honestly, who cares? As long as no one is hurt, it should be legal. The government is not our moral compass. As long as it does not negatively impact you or anyone who didn't agree with it (and agreement should not have an age restriction), it should be, by definition, legal.
That's what a lot of people here say, but the problem is that a lot of people think exactly that and so this is why our elected representatives craft such laws.
Re:Who cares? (Score:4, Funny)
What is the purpose of government?
I always thought it was to "establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity".
But I could be wrong.
Parent
Nothing new (Score:5, Insightful)
It is a deliberate tactic for anti-sex groups to threaten porn stars with stalkers. If they can't shame them into obedience, then they expose them to sexual predators.
Re:Nothing new (Score:5, Informative)
One of the google talks by Violet Blue actually had some interesting information on the 2257 requirement. She did not go quite this far in criticising the law, but pointed out some very serious problems with it.
Basically, a decent chunk of people who needed to prove age for 2257 compliance basically just had pictures of them with the driver's license. Of course, many people tend not to perform under their real name and if these pictures get onto the internet, then someone else can tie a face to a real name and possibly even an address. Not a good situation in general. From what I gather, the wording of the law was pretty vague as well as to what sort of proof was required and who could eventually ask for it.
Anyhow, a pretty interesting talk here with some relevance to the topic: Violet Blue (Google Tech Talks) [youtube.com]
Parent
ZOMG! (Score:4, Insightful)
But seriously, this is just another example of what I call the "extended childhood" of North American children. Forget the Puritans; it was common all across Europe to marry children of 13-14 years of age for centuries. (Hell, didn't Jerry Lee Lewis marry a 14-year old in 1950's?) But even though our kids, thanks to TV, computers, and the net, are much more educated than kids were in the 1930's, we keep trying to protect them from their own natural urges for longer and longer periods of time.
And this weird American prudishness just continues to amaze me. Here in Canada, on regular broadcast TV, not just cable, you can see nudity and soft-core sex practically every night. And on plain vanilla cable (which virtually all Canadians have), not specialty pay channels, you can even see hard core sex late night on the weekends. I really don't get why people think it's fine for the kids to see hundreds (if not thousands) of murders as they grow up, but think that if their kids see a naked breast, they'll be instantly corrupted.
A Thumbnail On The Law (Score:5, Informative)
This case is headed to the Supreme Court, and there is a decent chance they may agree to hear it. There is a directly conflicting ruling out of the 10th Circuit in Denver. A split on a point of law (a Circuit split [wikipedia.org]) is often a reason for the Supreme Court to step in, so that the conflict can be resolved.
I had to deal with 2257 compliance in my work for an adult website. It works like this:
1. The photographer (or production company) must verify identity with a government-issued ID. If shot in the United States, the government-issued ID must be an American identification, even if the model is not from the United States, such as a cute chick on vacation for a couple weeks just traveling on her passport. Note that if you shoot outside the United States, a foreign ID is fine. Are you shooting in El Paso? You can go to prison for shooting your Estonian model on her passport and visitor's visa, but if you take her to Juarez and shoot her there, you're in the clear.
2. The photographer must keep a copy of the ID, the model's contract, AND the pictures for five years after the last publication of the photographs. In addition, if published on the Internet, you have to keep a complete list of all URLs (including thumbnails!) of any picture you publish, even when those URLs change or come down. You better not be using any database-driven stuff with auto-generated URLs, because you now have to track every one of them, no matter how they change.
3. The records must be cross-indexed by model's real name, any stage names, any dates of publication, any dates of recording, title of product or production, and URL. Use three year old footage in a new DVD? You get to dig back through your compliance records and update your cross-indexes.
4. The records must be SEPARATE from your normal day-to-day business records. That is, you have to keep this stuff for the ordinary course of your business, and THEN you must keep a SEPARATE copy for the government.
5. You must publish the REAL name and address of the person who holds the records on each copy of your product -- DVD, mag, or book -- AND on EVERY PAGE of your website (a "click here for 2257 info" link is *not* acceptable).
6. This person must be available at least 20 hours a week, 52 weeks a year, for unannounced visits from the FBI, who may rifle through your records (and copy any or all of them, to dig through at their pleasure) looking for violations without a warrant or any cause at all, probable or not.
7. Violation of any of this can land you in prison, even if your models are not under the age of 18. You can do years in prison and pay thousands in fines if the only thing wrong is that you screwed up the cross-indexing.
8. If you sub-license or sell your content (such as your website's affiliates), you have to give un-redacted copies of your records to the person you sell/give the content to. Are you a DVD producer who posts your movies on HotMovies [hotmovies.com]? HotMovies gets a copy of your records, complete with the model's real name and address. The model doesn't get any right to opt out, either; if they can also turn around and sell or sub-license your content, THEIR licensees get your model's information, and YOU can't do anything about it, and you have no control over who it all goes to!
9. If you receive sub-licensed or sold content, you likewise have to keep a complete set of records. It is *not* sufficient to simply keep track of where your content came from so the FBI can back-track. You have to have your own independent, complete set of records, all lined up, cross-indexed and separated from your daily business records, and ready for inspection whenever the FBI decides to materialize.
10. You are required to keep records even if you go out of business, be available for FBI inspection 20 business-time hours per week even if you go on vacation or operat
Re:Kids will Lie. (Score:4, Insightful)
It then comes down to who decides what looks 'legal' and who doesn't. I can see this turning into the same mess as ID verification for Alcoholic beverages (anyone over 30 ID'd). Somewhat of a joke since you can't really tell everyone age with any accuracy from looks.
If the law is too difficult or to sweeping to enforce without unnecessarily restricting someone's first amendment rights, then it should be overturned as unconstitutional. We have those protections for a reason.
They should find a better way to put the sick bastards away who peddle child porn.
Parent
NOT "companies". Anybody. (Score:5, Informative)
If you bought your camera on eBay, and you have taken pornographic pictures of your wife or girlfriend, the law very clearly applies to YOU. Which is not reasonable... but which is fact.
Clearly, the law *IS* overbroad.
Parent