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Mozilla Privacy The Internet

Firefox Add-On To Track Your Location Via Wi-Fi 181

Posted by timothy from the location-aware dept.
Barence writes "Mozilla Labs has unveiled a new Add-on that allows Firefox to pinpoint your location based on Wi-Fi signals. The feature, called Geode, is a prototype for the location-tracking technology that will be built into the forthcoming Firefox 3.1. Geode is designed to work with websites that rely on knowing your location, such as mapping and geotagging services. The prospect of Firefox having the ability to track your location raises obvious privacy fears. Mozilla insists users will remain in complete control. 'With Geode, when a website requests your location a notification bar will ask how much information you want to give that site: your exact location, your neighbourhood, your city, or nothing at all,' the Mozilla Labs blog claims."
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Firefox Add-On To Track Your Location Via Wi-Fi

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  • Big Brother is like a fox on fire (Score:5, Funny)

    by WillAffleckUW ( 858324 ) on Wednesday October 08, 2008 @01:34PM (#25302263) Homepage Journal

    And twice as annoying.

    Excuse me while I install this on my son's laptop ... without him knowing.

  • They'll never track me (Score:5, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 08, 2008 @01:34PM (#25302267)

    I'm wearing my tinfoil underwear.

    Oh crap, this means I need to wear underwear at the computer.

  • Why Not... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by jpatters ( 883 ) on Wednesday October 08, 2008 @01:36PM (#25302303)

    Why not let it give the user the option of telling the web site some arbitrary location?

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by einer ( 459199 )

      You can get the source and make it do just that. My personal hope is that the default this to off and make you activate it manually. Also, what are the chances that this gets abused by law enforcement?

    • Because the Dept of Homeland Spying would get misleading info on your whereabouts.

    • exactly. The introductory use case of being in a strange environment and looking for food isn't very compelling. Why not just tell it where you are, ala google maps? What if you want to plan ahead for a future trip? If you can't specify where you are, you cant really do that.

    • uhm, as it's open source, anyone that is a programmer has that option. i'm going to have some fun with this i think.

      posting from the white house, cuba, yemen, etc.

    • Why not let it give the user the option of telling the web site some arbitrary location?

      No kidding. I'd love to be able to do this just to get around those damn you're-not-from-America-so-can't-watch-this-video-clip messages. I particularly hate it when (Adobe Flash Player, I'm looking at you) they let me install the program, WATCH THE AD, then give me the message.

      Grey [wellingtongrey.net]

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Fumus ( 1258966 )
      Exactly. There was a warning popping up when I enabled javascript copy to clipboard saying that this site wanted blahblah. What's the effort in letting me control which site I want to give my location and which never need it.

  • Going back to hard-wired connection (Score:5, Funny)

    by TheNecromancer ( 179644 ) on Wednesday October 08, 2008 @01:37PM (#25302307)

    I sure hope Best Buy still sells that 2-mile long ethernet cable...

  • ... It's an addon, not a cookie. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by plasmacutter ( 901737 ) on Wednesday October 08, 2008 @01:40PM (#25302357)

    The addon has to be manually installed.

    It's not a piece of malware, it's not surreptitiously installed by remote servers. It's strictly voluntary.

    The only privacy concerns which arise from this are if people are not careful enough with the addon to disable it.

    • Re:... It's an addon, not a cookie. (Score:5, Insightful)

      by truthsearch ( 249536 ) on Wednesday October 08, 2008 @01:47PM (#25302481) Homepage Journal

      Except the summary states "the location-tracking technology... will be built into the forthcoming Firefox 3.1."

      I'd much rather this remain a separately downloadable add-on.

      • Except the summary states "the location-tracking technology... will be built into the forthcoming Firefox 3.1."

        I'd much rather this remain a separately downloadable add-on.

        and it also says you can make sure sites get "nothing at all"

        Additionally, being open source, you can grab the SRC and make builds of it minus that code.

        • Re:... It's an addon, not a cookie. (Score:5, Interesting)

          by truthsearch ( 249536 ) on Wednesday October 08, 2008 @02:14PM (#25302995) Homepage Journal

          Just being included would make it open to security problems. Someday a vulnerability might let a sight activate it using JavaScript, for example.

          I'm a minimalist. If I'm not going to ever use it, I'd rather it not be on the computer at all, especially if it's a potential privacy issue.

          And we all know that your average Firefox user will always be going to mozilla for their builds. I doubt a fork that removes this component would gain much traction.

          • It wouldn't need much traction though.

            If the only difference between the fork and the original is a few comment indicators, one person could easily do it and post major builds.

          • It would be great if Mozilla, or somebody else, would make a light version of Firefox, which only had web browsing. It could be extendable, so that user's could have just what they want, and not a lot of feature creep. Perhaps they could call it Phoenix, or Firebird.

            • Re: (Score:2)

              by cjb658 ( 1235986 )

              It would be great if Mozilla, or somebody else, would make a light version of Firefox, which only had web browsing. It could be extendable, so that user's could have just what they want, and not a lot of feature creep. Perhaps they could call it Phoenix, or Firebird.

              Wasn't that the whole idea behind having extensions in the first place?

              • Re: (Score:2)

                by WK2 ( 1072560 )

                Yep. That's what I was pointing out, that Firefox has lost it's way. It is no longer a small, lightweight browser.

                Phoenix was the original name for Firefox. Then Firebird. It's purpose was to be small and light-weight, without all of the extra features of the Mozilla web browser (now Seamonkey). So Mozilla stripped out the extra features, and now they are adding them again. I am suggesting that they strip them out again. Everything old is new again.

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by kesuki ( 321456 )

            this feature is a deal breaker for me. i'm switching back to firefox 2.

            chrome doesn't have noscript, Ie is not an option. hopefully chrome will get popular enough to get noscript by the time firefox 2 gets too obsolete.

      • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

        by buchner.johannes ( 1139593 )

        I'd much rather this remain a separately downloadable add-on.

        It is designed so that every application has to get the agreement from the user first. He/She may choose to permit access to the accurate or approximate coordinates (or to deny access).

        Source: heise.de (german) [heise.de]

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by barzok ( 26681 )

        Websites already have some idea where I'm coming from, regardless of my browser and JavaScript settings. All keyed off the known locations of IPs.

      • raises privacy concerns. C'mon people, this privacy at all costs meme is getting a little extreme. This add-on is for people who want to be tracked! Most people who DL Firefox are smart enough not to enable this add-on. For those that aren't should a cool feature not be added to protect people from themselves? Then let's ban guns too (no, let's not).

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by syousef ( 465911 )

      The only privacy concerns which arise from this are if people are not careful enough with the addon to disable it.

      When there are negative consequences to forgetting to disable a piece of software, it's malware in my book. I don't trust Mozilla any more. The final straw was awfulbar. I do not wish to broadcast unvisited bookmarks to anyone looking over my shoulder no matter how innocuous they are!

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by cjb658 ( 1235986 )

      This has already been done [loki.com]

      Unfortunately, it just tells you where you are. I'd like to see it give turn-by-turn directions.

  • Gee! It says I'm at work. Like I'd be anywhere else at this time of the day.

  • They can already pinpoint your location pretty well using your IP address (and without your permission). So what's the point of this?

    • Re:Solution to a non-problem? (Score:4, Interesting)

      by athakur999 ( 44340 ) on Wednesday October 08, 2008 @01:55PM (#25302619) Journal

      IP geolocation usually only gets you down to the city level usually and even then the city you get isn't always accurate. Using wifi signals (I assume they keep a keep a database of SSIDs and AP MAC addresses to compare against) should be able to get your location down to at least the city block level which is much more useful.

      • Like on a 3G iPhone? Their pseudo-GPS using wireless access points gets pretty darn close. It usually pinpoints me within a building or two.

        I think it would be useful to at least have this option on my UMPC, even through Firefox. Business trips can often take me to places I have no interest in going; once there, at least I wouldn't be totally lost.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Kelson ( 129150 ) *

      Think mobile computing.

      Consider a search for the nearest coffee shop, video store, etc. within walking distance. You can look for a street address on the nearby buildings (good luck with that in some areas) and type it in, or you can allow you mapping app of choice to figure out where you are and look it up automatically.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by emj ( 15659 )

      Because you get lousy resolution with Geo-pos-IP, and even the bad services available today are pretty expensive.

      • Because you get lousy resolution with Geo-pos-IP, and even the bad services available today are pretty expensive.

        An none work with IPv6.

    • We just tried out IP geolocation where I work, and the results were depressing. From what my boss found out, we could only get results for ~65% of IP addresses. The ones we could get were close, but not usably close -- our office was listed as being in a town 1/2 hour away in good traffic.

      "Location-based" services need good data on where someone is. If I'm trying to find coffee shops nearby, for example, it doesn't help if the only ones I can find are several towns over.

  • Stupid (Score:4, Insightful)

    by BCW2 ( 168187 ) on Wednesday October 08, 2008 @01:42PM (#25302401) Journal
    The default damn well better be "nothing at all" or the lawsuits will be spectacular.
    • Or Opera use will go way up.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by BZ ( 40346 )

      Lawsuits? The loss of goodwill would be a lot more important. Even more important would be the fact that a default of anything other than "nothing at all" is fundamentally the wrong thing to do.

      I don't think you need to worry much on this score. The people working on this are neither stupid nor malicious.

  • Forgot a function (Score:5, Insightful)

    by CaptainPatent ( 1087643 ) on Wednesday October 08, 2008 @01:44PM (#25302435) Journal

    Geode is designed to work with websites that rely on knowing your location, such as mapping, geotagging services, and location-based advertising.

    Hey, they've got to be making money off of it somehow.

  • Control is not enough (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Improv ( 2467 ) <pgunn01@gmail.com> on Wednesday October 08, 2008 @01:44PM (#25302449) Homepage Journal

    Just like providing DRM systems, there is the danger, when providing this capacity, for websites to begin to demand it, something they can't easily do now because there's no infrastructure to demand it.

    Of course, this is a constant danger/possibility - some days I regret that Javascript was invented because a number of sites don't work at all unless I tell NoScript to allow JS on them. Cost of progress, I guess...

    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      by SanityInAnarchy ( 655584 )

      there is the danger, when providing this capacity, for websites to begin to demand it

      There is also the source code, freely available and modifiable, which means you could easily tell such websites that your current location is Fuckoff, in the fine state of NoneOfYourDamnedBusiness.

      a number of sites don't work at all unless I tell NoScript to allow JS on them.

      Hey, it could always be worse. You could always stumble on a site that doesn't work unless you allow Flash on it.

    • It would be the height of stupidity for a website to require this since it would require all their users to not only be using wifi, but be using wifi on a registered WAN. I imagine this would take a huge chunk out of their potential user base.

      Then again, for DRM stupidity was no obstacle. So, who knows.

  • Questions (Score:2, Interesting)

    by speroni ( 1258316 )

    Is this IP address driven? Is this mostly for public hotspots? Will one be able to register their home Wifi signal?

    Will one be able to register their neighbors unsecured wifi signal?

    Will there be reverse look uo p for public hotspots? How about "Public" hotspots?

  • Wow.. good for once it doesn't run on linux! (Score:1, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward

    just tried to install it to see what it's like, but won't install on i386/Ubuntu

  • How does wifi "pinpoint your location"? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by FourthAge ( 1377519 ) on Wednesday October 08, 2008 @01:53PM (#25302567) Journal

    Does this require each hotspot owner to register the location of his/her hotspot, so that a database can be queried to find the location?

    e.g. "I can see access points with MAC addresses 00:60:08:57:3C:D2 and 00:E0:18:77:D6:40 so I know I'm at 37 23.516 -122 02.625.."

    How many hotspot owners can be bothered to register their correct location? And re-register it if their IP address changes? How many even change their password?

    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward
      They sent vehicles out with Wi-fi scanners to catalog broadcast MAC addresses and then map those wireless devices via their GPS location. All that data is then funneled into a database so the position of the Wireless device can be easily "looked up." The downside is that wireless devices are not static and can be easily moved or turned off. So the database must be constantly updated.

      • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

        by Idiomatick ( 976696 )

        It could be updated by the users of firefox, assuming the world didnt move to the west 20meters you should be able to figure out a few routers moving at a time. Sounds like a really fun/interesting code challenge.

    • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

      by alerante ( 781942 )
      Wi-Fi location works kind of like Google Street View — someone drives around and collects information on the wireless devices in the area. All of this data is subsequently collected into a database, which is then used to look up locations based on the names and strengths of nearby networks.

    • e.g. "I can see access points with MAC addresses 00:60:08:57:3C:D2 and 00:E0:18:77:D6:40 so I know I'm at 37 23.516 -122 02.625.."

      Is a web browser even allowed to have access to information like MAC addresses? I figure it ping's a few known servers and calculates its location from the time. In which case, it could easily be fooled by a VPN or Tor.

  • If a service can offer a better experience if it knows my location without having to login and identify myself, it is useful in many scenarios. For example, advertising a deal or a offering a coupon for an item in a nearby store. But like any technology, it can definitely be abused.

    There are a few problems with WiFi based location estimation. For example, the SSID may change or vanish. Secondly, it can easily be abused by reporting false location. On the contrary, it can work indoors unlike most commercial

  • Tracking an IP (Score:4, Funny)

    by fireheadca ( 853580 ) on Wednesday October 08, 2008 @02:07PM (#25302869)

    Then I'll create a GUI interface in Visual Basic and see if I can track an IP address

  • Compatible with what iPhone websites use? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Yvan256 ( 722131 ) on Wednesday October 08, 2008 @02:17PM (#25303053) Homepage Journal

    Is there even such a thing anyway?

    I hope the Firefox team, Apple, Opera and Google will soon sit down and establish a standard for such things (new metas, new javascript, whatever). Tell Microsoft about it, but don't wait for them.

    Also, won't AMD sue for using the Geode [wikipedia.org] name?

    • Trademarks are product type specific, that is aslong as there is no risk of someone mixing up geode the processor with geode the program then the trademark does not apply.

  • Undefined license for proprietary component! (Score:5, Interesting)

    by hackel ( 10452 ) on Wednesday October 08, 2008 @02:27PM (#25303251) Journal

    From the included LICENSE.TXT:

    "The XPCom component contained within the contents of this extension is licensed by
    Skyhook Wireless, Inc. ("Skyhook") and are subject to the Skyhook license and
    terms of use (the "Skyhook License"); you may not use this component except
    in compliance with the Skyhook License.

    You may obtain a copy of the Skyhook License at [need URL]"

    I didn't look long, but I could not find any "Skyhook License" on Skyhook's website (which is I guess why they chose not to fill in the URL!). I certainly would not use a product for which the license was in question like this, especially considering the proprietary, binary-only DLLs they provide. Not that I would be able to try it out, since it only includes 32-bit Windows and Mac libraries, no Linux at all.

    Buyer beware, as they say...

  • If they have this kind of geolocation information about where Wifi access points are, they probably have the ability to track you down to at least a neighborhood just knowing your IP address for an awful lot of WAPs in their database.

    So even without this plugin, if you use public Wifi you're giving a fair amount of information about your location to the sites you visit.

    What, am I worried about this? No. Should I be?

    • I think you're spot-on. As MySpace/Facebook have proven, not using the service doesn't mean that a whole lot of personal information about you can't be revealed by your "friends" who are members.

      Imagine that Google (or some other nefarious agency) starts infecting, err, "adding logging" to WiFi access points. I'm sure it'll be innocuous - protects the children, necessity for the war on terror, etc. But, just like your device can collect all the WiFi access point info and report it, getting back a locatio

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by argent ( 18001 )

        Imagine that Google (or some other nefarious agency)

        Would that be the Department of Google? Or the Federal Google Administration?

  • Other location services (Score:3, Informative)

    by vrmlguy ( 120854 ) <samwyse AT gmail DOT com> on Wednesday October 08, 2008 @02:38PM (#25303485) Homepage Journal

    There are other ways to approximate your location when you aren't using wi-fi. As an example, http://www.geobytes.com/ipLocator.htm [geobytes.com] will give you a location derived from your ISP's. Also, a way to set a location in your Firefox profile would be useful for desktop PCs that rarely move. And I should note that Ubiquity is currently using the MaxMind geo-api (http://www.maxmind.com/app/api [maxmind.com]) for very similar purposes.

  • How about... (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Twyst3d ( 1359973 )
    Every day at midnight, the geode add on wakes your laptop and sends a very quick communication to a database online. The database is simple. Geode identifier and a y/n column for has your computer been stolen? If a user has reported his laptop stolen the connection stays on and local authorities are notified.

  • Firefox 3.1? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by B5_geek ( 638928 ) on Wednesday October 08, 2008 @02:41PM (#25303557)

    And thus marks the end my my upgrade path with Firefox. It's been nice, so long and thanks for all the fish!

    • Agreed. Mozilla has lost its way.

      Enough with the built in "features". The awesome bar was bad enough, this is a step too far. By all means offer it as an add-on. Surely the whole point of add-ons is that people can start with a basic browser and choose which features are useful to them?

      It's time for a fork.

    • Indeed. I will NOT be installing 3.1 if this tracker is installed with it. If anyone from mozilla reads slashdot pay attention. Do NOT include this software in the core browser or you will lose not only my support but the support of everyone I know. (And I happen to be the tech guy for all of my friends and family, and there are LOTS of them) I will actively make sure they do not upgrade to 3.1. Either make it an add-on or scrap it entirely. If you pride your browser on its security features this is a spit

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by BZ ( 40346 )

      I'm curious: what is the exact problem you have with the geolocation stuff? No data is given to the server unless you explicitly allow it for that particular site. If you _do_ allow it, it enables a class of very interesting web applications, especially on mobile devices.

      Could you explain what your objections are, past an instinctive reaction to the word "track"?

      • I can't speak for the parent, but my problem with it is the possibility of abuse. You're installing an app that can pinpoint the location of your computer, at least to some degree. If someone wants to exploit this "feature", you've already done most of the work for them. All they have to do is find a way to tap into the data that app gathers.

        But regardless of that, my other objection is having such an app included in the browser. If it's an extension, I can choose whether or not I want to install it, bu

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by BZ ( 40346 )

          > And why should it be in there by default?

          That's a really good question. For now, the W3C is publishing a spec that will require it, but there've been rumblings to the effect that not all W3C specs are worth implementing...

          Realistically, this feature is no more dangerous than many other things (like file inputs, etc) if properly secured. You're right that it increases attack area, but so does SVG. See, for example, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2008Sep/0112.html [w3.org]

          So the only real question

          • I completely agree with you.

            I'm just quite puzzled that Mozilla sees the need to build this into the browser. Even if this means nothing here in North America and Europe, can you imagine what this will do to Firefox adoption in a place like China? Would you want to be a dissident with something like this installed on your laptop? I wouldn't. I'd be nervous enough as it is, so I sure as hell wouldn't want this "feature" potentially telling the Chinese government where I was while I was blogging about hum

            • Re: (Score:2)

              by BZ ( 40346 )

              > I'm just quite puzzled that Mozilla sees the need to build this into the browser.

              I though you just agreed that this was important on mobile devices...

              > If a tool can be abused, it will be abused.

              That's an argument for having no tools at all, which isn't a good idea. The goal should be to strike a balance.

              • I think it can be useful on mobile devices, but that doesn't mean it has to be built into the browser. An extension will do just fine. If you want to meet half-way, then have the extension preinstalled on the upcoming Firefox for mobile platforms, but, since it would still be an extension, users could remove it if they want to do so.

      • The specifics of this "feature" are irrelevant. Whether its good or bad for individuals should be a choice. This is the point. If this is built-in there's no choice.

        Some people like the awesome bar for example, some don't mind it, some -- perhaps many -- dislike it intensely. There is absolutely no need for that, or this tracker, to be built into the browser by default. The add-on functionality is perfect and very useful. Let people choose what they need in a browser and keep the basic browser fast and

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by BZ ( 40346 )

          > It seems like Mozilla is now intent on adding features rather than having a great stable
          > product.

          That's a false dichotomy, really.

          But there's one more issue here. All the browsers are in a position where they'll become totally irrelevant in a few years if they don't have feature parity with Flash and Silverlight... so they're working on said feature parity (except maybe IE, which doesn't mind being irrelevant if Silverlight wins).

  • I know somewhere on the web there's a nationwide wi-fi map, with every point listing their name. I checked my house, and there was my AP. So yeah, pretty slick making software from that data.

    Double edged sword here: yes, privacy concerns, but if your laptop gets stolen & the thief is at a documented area, go in for the retrieval!

  • Wrong fears ? (Score:2, Interesting)

    by nsebban ( 513339 )
    "The prospect of Firefox having the ability to track your location raises obvious privacy fears."

    What I fear more is Firefox becoming everything but what people need it to be. You know, a web browser.
    Please wake me up when someone decides to fork FF and remove all the useless crap that's being added lately. We're far from what made many of us tech-savvy people switch to what used to be a lightweight, efficient and secure web browser.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by BZ ( 40346 )

      So what, exactly, is a web browser? Heck, what's "web"? The problem is that the definition keeps changing. Used to be, no image support was fine in a web browser. And no script support. And no CSS support. And no DOM support.

      Note that the W3C is standardizing a geolocation API; this is just an implementation of that W3C spec.

      I should also point out that Firefox 3 is faster and more memory-efficient than Firefox 2 or Firefox 1.5 or Firefox 1.0 (though when comparing to 1.0 you probably need to make sur

  • 'With Geode, when a website requests your location a notification bar will ask how much information you want to give that site: your exact location, your neighbourhood, your city, or nothing at all,' the Mozilla Labs blog claims."

    I would like to later ask Geode for the lists of web sites I've set to my exact location, neighbourhood, city, or nothing at all.

    I create these settings and forget them. The cloud should not only remember what I set for the Web sites, but for me whenever I want to check,

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by dossen ( 306388 )
      And it just so happens that the list you are asking for is shown in the options dialog of the extension. Not the most prominent place, but it's there alright.
  • im guessing google maps would use this like it currently uses the GPS feature in an iPhone 3G

  • Microsoft had a WiFi geo locator utility and web application several years ago, and abandoned it because people that cared where they were would just use the GPS in their phones, as it was consumer utility to find local information.

    I don't think a utility that reports back where you are will be any more successful, and a bit scary.

  • Does this imply a fix to the "We're sorry, but the TV show episode you wish to view is not available from your location." annoyance?

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