US Senate Asks for National Security Letter Explanation

A group of U.S. Senators are asking the FBI to explain a recent controversial National Security Letter sent to the Internet Archive. The Internet Archive was able to defeat the request with help from the EFF and the ACLU this past April. "The Internet Archive's case is only the third known legal challenge to NSLs, despite the fact that the the FBI issues tens of thousands a year -- more than 100,000 such letters were issued in 2004 and 2005 combined. But despite the lack of legal challenges from recipients at ISPs, telephone companies and credit bureaus, successive scathing reports from the Justice Department's Inspector General have found illegal letters and a willy-nilly culture within the bureau towards tracking their usage."

If they really want to know...

[by Anonymous Coward]

...they should send the FBI a National Security Letter asking why,

Re:They would, but...

[by Anonymous Coward]

Congress has any power they give themselves not explicitly denounced as unconstitutional by the Supreme Court in review, and when they get a large enough consensus they can change even that. More explicitly, Congress controls the budget: All the other branches of government could piss and moan about it all they like, but a strong congress could turn everyone out into the streets until they backed down.

Re:They would, but...

[by Anonymous Coward]

Congress has any power they give themselves not explicitly denounced as unconstitutional by the Supreme Court in review

Good Lord! Is that what they're teaching you kids in civics class these days? Cheer up emo kid, no branch of government has the ability to simply grant itself powers; all such self-granted powers would be, by definition, unconstitutional.

Yeah, but you're as far off base as emo kid!

Good Lord! Is that what they taught you in civics class back then? Cheer up boomer dude, The Executive has the ability to simply grant itself powers; as long as the Department of Justice (which is part of the Executive Branch) chooses to Congressional requests for information (and when the requests are ignored, to also ignore Congressional subpoenae issued against other members of the Executive!), no charges are filed, no arrests are made, and the case (and its constitutional issues) never reaches the Judicial Branch, and in the absence of a judge's ruling, the Executive's actions can never, by defintion, be ruled unconstitutional.

(I'm not the original AC, as you might guess. Google "inherent contempt", and "contempt of Congress". It may sound like I was going for +5, Funny, but it's actually been happening for real over the past 6-12 months. Long enough for everyone to forget what the original issue was, other than that it's useful for making the other side look bad in an election year.)

who is first?

[electrosoccertux (874415)]

This is the sort of thing where somebody has to be first.

If everybody could agree to all publish their letters at once and all be first, then the FBI would be powerless [more or less]. It would blow the whole thing wide open. Everyone could analyze for themselves the validity of these claims, including lots of lawyers who would eat this up. We'd see that 99.9% of these are just a template *.doc file printed with regards to [insert company name here] and mailed off.

I'm all for having watchmen, but not when we don't get to watch THEM. Which is exactly what this

Obligatory Watchmen

[oahazmatt (868057)]

I'm all for having watchmen, but not when we don't get to watch THEM. Which is exactly what this

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes. Words to live by. I talk to so many people on a daily basis who have completely become numb to the fact that the people should always dictate the actions of the government, not the other way around. I'd like to know when such a supreme case of apathy and fear exactly overwhelmed our culture.

Re:Obligatory Watchmen

[by Anonymous Coward]

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes. Words to live by. I talk to so many people on a daily basis who have completely become numb to the fact that the people should always dictate the actions of the government, not the other way around. I'd like to know when such a supreme case of apathy and fear exactly overwhelmed our culture.

A long time ago and was deliberately accelerated in response to the anti-war movement during Vietnam. The public school system has been in many ways deliberately designed to promote the acceptance of authority, a move not only desirable to the government but to the corporations. Politicians promote the government being the cradle to grave guide for its citizens as it makes for nice fat pork barrels and accompanying "donations". A false sense of safety and reliance on the government is pushed for the very same reasons $$$$. This is the reason why that an immigrant is vastly more likely to go into business for themselves then someone born in America, because the immigrant often wishes to enjoy the freedoms of America they have heard so much about and do not trust the authority that Americans have been trained to accept and seek out. The extreme power shift around the time of the "Civil War" from states to the Federal Government enhanced these problems.

The FBI itself was supposed to be a temporary agency within the government, but under J. Edgar Hoover leaped to astounding levels of power that were not cut back until his passing. It still exists and does anyone really thing that the FBI won't seek greater power and that such things as the misuse of NSLs won't enable such?

"Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny."
Thomas Jefferson

Re:Obligatory Watchmen

[Mr. Slippery (47854)]

It hit critical mass, IMO, after the Depression and FDR's New Deal.

Nah, critical mass of fear was already there during the first Red Scare, when they passed the Sedition Act of 1918, locked up Eugene Debs, deported hundreds without due process, and destroyed the American left.

It probably goes back to the Great Upheaval of 1877 [wikipedia.org]. You know those big old National Guard armories they have in a lot of cities? They weren't built in case of invasion. They were built in case the workers got uppity again.

Re:who is first?

[ceroklis (1083863)]

This is the sort of thing where somebody has to be first.

Hans was first.

remember!

[crazybit (918023)]

they do this to protect your freedom...

Re:remember!

[pha7boy (1242512)]

the sad thing is that most of them actually believe that they do protect your freedom and your way of live by doing this. Good people in a bad culture leads to really, really bad decisions.

It's about time

[zappepcs (820751)]

I don't know about the rest of /., but I think it is about time that the NSL usage was challenged. I'm glad that they finally found one that was worth challenging. These things are evil incarnate... or rather enable evil incarnate.

There simply is NOT enough terrorist activity or threat to warrant this kind of constitutional stomping authority. I really don't care if that sounds unpatriotic. I just do NOT believe that there was ever valid justification for such actions as allowed by the NSLs. They give carte blanche access to your information in ways that you are supposed to be protected from. Simply put, it is a non-supervised method to violate every or any citizens constitutional rights to privacy.

I'm tired of seeing arguments about how it's for security, or it fights terrorists. For FSM's sake, if it violates MY rights, then it's fucking wrong. period. no argument. for. ever.

I don't care if you tell me it will only be used in 'certain' cases.. I do NOT want you to have the ability to do so because I do not fucking trust you. ever. period. get over it.

The 2nd amendment is there to provide recourse to such actions by the government and I don't care if those in power think I'm saying treasonous things, I have a constitutionally guaranteed right to say them, think them, and 'believe it or not' act on them. I do NOT want this, or any, government to be snooping in my life, or anyone's life just because they can for expedience sake. Follow the law, do the right thing and you will have my respect. Don't and I will keep my gun very handy. THAT, my friends, is the intent of the framers of the constitution. Don't tread on me was used early on as a rally cry... I'm using it now. Don't tread on me or my privacy. It's time that ALL citizens of the USA said the same.

Re:It's about time

[TheVelvetFlamebait (986083)]

The 2nd amendment is there to provide recourse to such actions by the government and I don't care if those in power think I'm saying treasonous things, I have a constitutionally guaranteed right to say them, think them, and 'believe it or not' act on them.

It's a tricky situation. The second amendment is supposed to help "correct" democracy if it no longer becomes representative, and also help uphold the constitution. Unfortunately, this is no easy task. Are you a speaker for the people, attempting to rally them to bring down an oppressive government? Or are you a lone nut, acting as if your perspective is really that of the people? What if the constitution is being violated, but preventing that would be against the will of the people, and undermine democracy? Is the will of the founding fathers enough to trump the will of the people?

Is violating the constitution enough to warrant a death sentence to all in power, or are there grey areas that warrant only throwing the government out of office next elections? If you do indeed decide to go on a shooting spree, who should die? Should everyone employed by the government be offed? How about everyone in executive positions, right down to transport ministers? Or everyone in the white house?

The second amendment may have been relevant years ago, when the US was small and times were unstable, but now you have a lot more to lose. You have a huge economy, a wealthy lifestyle, sturdy future prospects, large population and infrastructure just to name a few. Violent coups must be thought through because they are devastatingly expensive. A civil war could ruin the US, so you had better to be bloody sure that you are doing the right thing. That's not even counting if you're a pacifist...

Re:It's about time

[zappepcs (820751)]

This is what I said:

I'm using it now. Don't tread on me or my privacy. It's time that ALL citizens of the USA said the same.

It neither called others to violent action, or intimated violent action on my part. My reference to the second ammendment (no, it is not out of date) is simply to frame the statement. The intent of the framers was not to create a fixed/rigid document to define government for all time, but to allow, nay, encourage citizens to change that government and document to suit all people in the pursuit of freedom and happiness etc.

I'm absolutely sure that when the rest of the world mocks our 'land of the free' label, it is time to do something. Not tomorrow, not next month, but now. Yes, voting is a quick and comparatively painless way to implement change. The problem (as I see it) is that this does not highlight to the citizenry that the people they vote in may be in the same cabal of (on face value) patriots that would violate their rights.

Sadly, in the land of the free, there are few who know their rights, and why they have them. I'm tempted to say that 'no child left behind' has ensured this, but won't. Despite the sig, I do not promote violent overthrow of the government, but I reserve the right to. There is no difference between one tyrant 3000 miles away and 30 tyrants 100 miles away... save for the fact that shooting the 30 is easier.

My entire tirade (and it is one) is for one simple reason; I'm tired of having MY rights trampled in the name of something that simply does NOT exist. If you think me wrong, shut down all the anti-terrorism measures... ALL of them, prove to me empirically that there is a danger that warrants such invasion of my life and privacy. Go ahead, do it!

I'm tired of people 'protecting me' from dangers that do not exist and trampling MY rights in the process. If you want to guard my house while I'm on vacation, fucking do it from the other side of the street. My security system is working fine, and I'm not paying you to waste your time and MY tax dollars to sit inside my house.

This goes for terrorism, child-pornography, internet bullies, file sharers, and any manner of thought crime criminals.

See my sig, I do not advocate violence, rather I suggest that the Internet changes everything. Information wants to be free, and information frees the rest of us. If the government is so honorable at protecting my rights, why do they have to do it in secret?

Don't give me that bs about national security ... I have a TSEC, and I understand it, how it works, what it is for. There is no reason that NSL letters, DMCA, USPATRIOT act et al need to exist. We have plenty of laws to take care of these problems already. New laws are only implemented to empower people or limit the scope of power of others. period. study it a bit.

I am BLOODY SURE that what I'm saying is right. I'm not a pacifist, but I am also not advocating a violent revolution. I like the Ron Paul revolution myself. The trouble is that if you do not smack people around a bit, they won't have the attention span to listen. Now is the time to listen to what is being said. Now is the time to take heart. Now is the time to put on the tin foil hats and load your home security devices. Now is the time to be skeptical. Now is the time to question EVERYTHING that the government is doing, or is asking for laws so they can do. Now is the time to listen carefully. Now is the time to start making up your mind about whether you would use a gun. Now is the time to decide how much your constitutionally guaranteed rights are worth to you. Now is the time to figure out what you would do when they come to take you from your home....

Yes, sounds a bit paranoid but then when you compare the Bush administration to the German government prior to WWII, it's a scary piece of entertainment... try it for yourself.

If you give an inch, they will take a mile so the saying goes. In this case that is not true... they will not stop with the mile.

There is much that can be done before violence is needed, but it must be done now. Attention must be drawn to the wrongs that are happening in this country now, not next month, not in September, but NOW.

Re:It's about time

[moderatorrater (1095745)]

The intent of the framers was not to create a fixed/rigid document to define government for all time, but to allow, nay, encourage citizens to change that government and document to suit all people in the pursuit of freedom and happiness etc.

No, no, the intent of the framers was to tenderize meat more efficiently, and they knew that to produce meat tenderizer in the bulk that they wanted would require that government stay out of the way. Everything else was incidental to the framers' opinions.

In reality, it was a large group of men who all had differing opinions of what government should be and who all are now dead, and therefore unable to tell us what they intended. That's why they left a document to base the government on, so that we wouldn't worry about their intent, but the one document they left us with legal force. Intention should only be considered far enough to determine the meaning of archaic words because anything else cannot be independently verified.

Re:It's about time

[scooter.higher (874622)]

The second amendment is supposed to help "correct" democracy if it no longer becomes representative, and also help uphold the constitution.

And that is one of the problems we are facing. Our elected politicians are no longer concerned with representing their constituents. They are doing the bidding of special interest groups.

Elections have become nothing more than pageants. Where did this term "unelectable" come from? The media decides to not cover a candidate because they are considered "unelectable?"

There is a problem. People just don't care enough to do the research to find a solution.

Re:It's about time

[wellingj (1030460)]

A couple of things.
1. The purpose of the constitution was to protect the rights of the individual from the tyranny of the majority.
2. Violating the constitution is against the law. There should be a trial. But if some legislators were to come and deprive me of any of my rights, you damn right there will be violence. The government depriving anything from me is tantamount to forcing me to choose between doing what is right and violence done against me by the state.
3. They started this, I wouldn't be pissed off if they had just left me alone to live freely. But they had to take the money that I work for, as if they owned 25% of my worth as a human being. Now they want to take my rights to do something about it.

Re:It's about time

[fahrbot-bot (874524)]

There simply is NOT enough terrorist activity or threat to warrant this kind of constitutional stomping authority.

Agree and futhermore...

<soapbox>
It doesn't really matter how much, the ends don't justify the means - despite what the Bush administration would have us believe. The Constitution is there to protect us from our Government and from those citizens who want to limit the rights of other citizens. As far as the "War on Terror", if the US has to behave badly and/or contrary to our core principles to "win", then we lose and they win.
</soapbox>

Warrant

[Boronx (228853)]

Gee, if only the FBI were required to get a warrant before making a search, we'd already have an explanation on record to look up. Too bad our founders didn't put anything into the constitution about that.

What, me read?

[by Anonymous Coward]

http://uniset.ca/terr/news/lat_fbibreakin.html [uniset.ca]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weatherman_(organization) [wikipedia.org]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft [wikipedia.org]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedition_Act_of_1918 [wikipedia.org]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alien_and_Sedition_Acts [wikipedia.org]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SLAPP [wikipedia.org]
http://www.amazon.com/Bowling-Alone-Collapse-American-Community/dp/0743203046/sr=8-1/qid=1172469926/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/105-3962904-3664448?ie=UTF8&s=books [amazon.com]
http://code.google.com/p/torchat/ [google.com]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_the_Shah's_Men [wikipedia.org]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_and_Contras_cocaine_trafficking_in_the_US [wikipedia.org]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_drug_trafficking [wikipedia.org]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip [wikipedia.org]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKULTRA [wikipedia.org]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichstag_Fire_Decree [wikipedia.org]
http://web.mit.edu/gtmarx/www/iron.html [mit.edu]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jury_nullification [wikipedia.org]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_Rule_Book [wikipedia.org]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repeal_of_prohibition [wikipedia.org]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Writeprint [wikipedia.org]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Eck_phreaking [wikipedia.org]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sousveillance [wikipedia.org]
http://www.cgsecurity.org/wiki/PhotoRec [cgsecurity.org]
http://www.eff.org/testyourisp/pcapdiff/ [eff.org]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panopticon [wikipedia.org]
http://ai.bpa.arizona.edu/COPLINK/ [arizona.edu]
http://ai.bpa.arizona.edu/research/coplink/authorship.htm [arizona.edu]
http://www.coplink.com/ [coplink.com]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO [wikipedia.org]
http://www.zurich.ibm.com/security/idemix/ [ibm.com]
http://packetstormsecurity.nl/filedesc/Practical_Onion_Hacking.pdf.html [packetstormsecurity.nl]
http://www.williamson-labs.com/laser-mic.htm [williamson-labs.com]
http://www-users.cs.umn.edu/~dfrankow/files/privacy-sigir2006.pdf [umn.edu]
http://freehaven.net/anonbib/topic.html#Anonymous_20communication [freehaven.net]
http://www.wiley.com/legacy/compbooks/mcnamara/links.html [wiley.com]

Penalties

[Repton (60818)]

If an organisation is breaking the law (which is what "illegal" means, right?), why do police never get involved?

As an outsider looking in, it seems like the cycle is this:

1. Government organisation does something illegal.
2. If someone notices:
   1. Senate / ombudsman / inspector says "Bad! Naughty government organisation!"
   2. [optional] Organisation says "Sorry!"
3. GOTO 1.

Is it any wonder that nothing changes if there are never any consequences for illegal doings?

Re:Penalties

[Scrameustache (459504)]

If an organisation is breaking the law (which is what "illegal" means, right?), why do police never get involved?

Do you remember the fuss about the politically-motivated firing of several US attorneys?
Some got fired for investigating people belonging to THE party. (The one in power)

Do you now understand what all the fuss was about?
Why you can't allow the power to be above the law?

bureaucratic shortcut

[cats-paw (34890)]

One of the overlooked problems with the NSL is that they provide a bureaucratic shortcut. You know, warrants are just so much work. Naturally it becomes the path of least resistance and so everything becomes related to terrorism just so they don't have to do all that work to get a regular warrant. You have to show probable cause, you need to identify the particulars of what you are looking for, etc... The best part is that you can do a really sloppy job and nobody will be the wiser, because they're all ecretsay.

There should be a little work involved, shouldn't there ? Wouldn't it be just great if those letters would actually apply to matters of national security ? The FBI has proven for us that they don't, just by the simple fact that they've generated so many of them.

FUD has ruled for many years now. Contact your congresscritter, register to vote, after all it is supposed to be your government.

Related interview

[proxima (165692)]

On the Media [onthemedia.org] had an interview (transcript and mp3 download available) last week with Internet Archive co-founder Brewster Kahle. [onthemedia.org] about his personal experience with the national security letter. Interesting stuff, but perhaps not much new if you've been keeping up with this.

A good excuse for civil disobedience.

[Cracked Pottery (947450)]

The law is written to keep this method of inquiry as secret as possible. While there are occasional instances where this would be warranted, e.g. the hot pursuit of dangerous criminal, the volume of these requests is so large that these cases are most likely comparatively rare. The most common effect of this provision is therefore the concealment of abuse.

Until there are cases where criminal convictions are challenged on Constitutional grounds, we will not learn just how much abuse, for example how often are instances of these letters used to uncover political information about lawful activities. Tools such as this are so dangerous to freedom that severe sanctions should exist for frivolous use.

Re:Ah, the fresh smell of paranoia

[Waffle Iron (339739)]

Of course this is bad, but it's realistically just a matter of bureaucracy gone bad, with some potential for abuse.

Stalinism was also just a bureaucracy gone bad.