Scientology Given Direct Access To eBay Database 684
An anonymous reader writes "The Church of Scientology can delete auctions from eBay with no supervision under the VeRO program, and has used this to delete all resale of the e-meters Scientologists use. This is to stop members from buying used units from ex-members instead of buying from the official (and very expensive) source. Given Scientology's record of fraud and abuse, should eBay give them this level of trust? Will this set a precedent for other companies that want to stop the aftermarket resale of their products?"
Don't tell Chef but (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Don't tell Chef but (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Don't tell Chef but.. I'm Buddhist... (Score:4, Funny)
OM-MA-NI-PAD-ME-HUM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mantra [wikipedia.org]
Re:Don't tell Chef but (Score:5, Funny)
Anything is "allowed", as far as free speech goes. While making fun of a religion might be insensitive and intolerant, making fun of Scientology is neither. Scientology is a religion like tofu is a meat.
Re:Don't tell Chef but (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Don't tell Chef but (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Don't tell Chef but (Score:5, Funny)
The problem with "WWXD?" is that it's just not a terribly useful guiding philosophy. For instance, imagine you're in a situation where you're having trouble getting along with your coworkers, and so you ask yourself, "WWXD?" The answer is that Xenu would round up his coworkers, put them on some starships shaped like DC-8 airliners, ship them to the distant reaches of the galaxy, and then nuke them into oblivion. So, as you can see, "WWXD?" has two major problems:
First, the solution is *always* to put people on spaceships shaped like 1950s-era jet airliners and then nuke them, because that's all we know about Xenu. "WWXD?" dictates that you put people on DC-8 shaped spaceships and then nuke them in any situation, whether it's marital problems, dealing with the poor, or feeling frustrated that you dropped your grilled cheese sandwich: just round up a bunch of people, put them on airplane-shaped spaceships, and then drop a bunch of H-bombs on them. It's just not very flexible as a philosophy.
The second issue with the "WWXD?" philosophy is more practical. Xenu was an evil galactic overlord. As a galactic overlord, he had lots of resources, in particular, lots of minions and henchmen to round people up and put them on spaceships, and lots of spaceships shaped like DC-8s, and lots of thermonuclear bombs. Unless you have access to similar resources, "WWXD?" is just not practical to apply to your everyday life. Although I admit, when I think of how to deal with Scientologists, and then ask "WWXD?", I have to admit that the philosophy does have some appeal.
Re:Don't tell Chef but (Score:4, Funny)
I agree this is a big problem. I don't know about any of you, but all my spaceships are shaped like DC-10s.
Re:Don't tell Chef but (Score:5, Insightful)
What is eBay thinking? I'm not going to read TFA because it'll probably make my head hurt, but I'm hoping this was some oversight on eBay's part and the outcry is going to make them re-evaluate this "vErO" policy or whatever the hell it's called. I don't see why anybody should have this level of access to eBay besides the folks who administer the site. So this means that if I put a used computer up for sale on eBay Microsoft can delete it because there's a good chance that it has Windows on it? Disney can delete my auction of a used copy of The Little Mermaid? Or how about Apple being able to delete my auction of an old iPod (including 5000 mp3s)?
I suppose it's just too much trouble to expect a third party to have to write a C&D letter to eBay, sort of like how it's too much trouble for the NSA to get an after-the-fact warrant signed by a judge before they listen in on the phone calls of US citizens.
I'd like to say I'll never deal with eBay again, except for the fact that I've never dealt with eBay in the first place. I do like to barter through the Illinois Trade Association, though. If you think auctions are a cool way to do business, you really need to check out barter. It's one way to keep the government out of your grill.
Re:Don't tell Chef but (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:/s/Xenu/Cowboyneal (Score:5, Funny)
First, the solution is *always* to sit on a couch, eat Pringles, and play video games because that's all we know about CowboyNeal. "WWCBND?" dictates that you sit on a couch, eat Pringles, and play video games in any situation, whether it's marital problems, dealing with the poor, or feeling frustrated that you dropped your grilled cheese sandwich: just sit on a couch, eat some Pringles, and play video games. It's just not very flexible as a philosophy.
The second issue with the "WWCBND?" philosophy is more practical. CowboyNeal is a fat slob. As a fat slob, he already has the resources to follow through with this plan, in particular, he has a couch, lots of Pringles, and plenty of video games to play. Unless you have access to similar resources, "WWCBND?" is just not practical to apply to your everyday life. Although I admit, when I think of how to deal with the fact that I too am a fat slob, and then ask "WWCBND?", I have to admit that the philosophy does have some appeal.
Re:/s/Xenu/Cowboyneal (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Head Shops & E-Meters (Score:5, Funny)
alternatively, October 2, 1925 [wikipedia.org]
Re:Head Shops & E-Meters (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Head Shops & E-Meters (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Head Shops & E-Meters (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Head Shops & E-Meters (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Head Shops & E-Meters (Score:5, Funny)
You are correct. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0098382/quotes [imdb.com]
I give myself one geek demerit for picking the wrong movie.
Re:Head Shops & E-Meters (Score:4, Funny)
I hereby smite you.
Re:Head Shops & E-Meters (Score:4, Funny)
And therein lies the true wonder... not only did he quote from Star Trek, and not only did he quote Shatner during that intermediate period when he was not cool, but he quoted from ST V, which most consider the worst one ever made.
That's no nerd, that's an übernerd. We are not worthy.
Re:Head Shops & E-Meters (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Head Shops & E-Meters (Score:5, Informative)
Let me be perfectly clear then: Scientology makes the claim, in their official religious literature, that Jesus was a homosexual pedophile. That is backed up by court records.
Re:Head Shops & E-Meters (Score:5, Funny)
I dunno...my girlfriend has religious paraphenalia that needs electricity. I know because when I am in another room, I can hear a buzzing sound in the bedroom and her chanting, "oh, god. oh, god! ohhhhh, gooood!"
Re:Head Shops & E-Meters (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Don't tell Chef but (Score:5, Funny)
There is nothing funny about them.
Re:Don't tell Chef but (Score:5, Informative)
No, *do* laugh at them (Score:5, Insightful)
Think about the South Park episode that went through the entire theology of the CoS, with a big blinking sign that read "This is what Scientologists actually believe" over the animation. That was even more effective than the "Dum Dum Dum Dum Dum" song refrain about the Mormons, all the more so since there was no attempt at all at the end of the episode to paint actual CoS members as decent human beings, unlike the Mormon episode.
Laugh at them.
Re:Church (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Church (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Church (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Church (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:yet again the religous twats get too much say (Score:5, Informative)
You shouldn't talk of things about which you are ignorant.
There almost certainly was a historical Buddha. There is far more evidence for this, from independent sources, than for (e.g.) Socrates.
And FYI, the Buddha never said he was anything but a normal man. In fact, he stated again and again that he was just that -- not some kind of a God or superbeing.
Re:yet again the religous twats get too much say (Score:5, Informative)
And things like rising from an untimely death after being nailed to a cross (or tree) three days after dying (and then celebrating), having a last supper, being born of a virgin, being the son of a god, etc... were all prevalent beliefs of pagan mythology at the time of and well before Jesus. A guy who had these "myths" thrown upon his name decades after he was dead in order to start a religion.
People forget that the history of most religions are far more "earth-bound" than they like to realize...
Re:Don't tell Chef but (Score:5, Informative)
Read the wiki linked to in the article summary. Very Interesting.
short answer (Score:5, Insightful)
This is favoritism. Microsoft doesn't even have this ability to stop the resale of their software.
Re:short answer (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:short answer (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:short answer (Score:5, Informative)
I especially love their section on how things won't be mistakenly removed:
My guess is... (Score:5, Informative)
The Scientologists are just that scary.
Re:My guess is... (Score:5, Insightful)
It's a given that CoS will abuse eBay's information. I guess it's already too late to purge my account.
Re:My guess is... (Score:5, Informative)
You may be interested in the phenomenon of Anonymous--a sort of movement that has coalesced to fight against the abuses of the Church of Scientology.
Interestingly, the 'official' position (if so nebulous a thing can have anything 'official') is not that the -religion- of scientology is wrong and evil, but that the -organization- that calls itself the 'Church of Scientology' does not deserve tax exemption, recognition as a church, etc.
I've been keeping track of Anonymous for some time--they seem to be the origin of many of the various memes that end up getting popular, so they seem to work well as a sort of miner's canary when discerning the opinion of the internet in general. This is, to my knowledge, the first time that this particular phenomenon has occurred--an internet movement that has had significant international effect in the real world. What makes it even more interesting is that it -has no leaders-. Somehow, out of total anarchy, it's managed to coalesce a sort of identity to itself, and has directed attention towards a single goal.
At any rate, it appears that as a followup to the February 10th protests (which were remarkable in themselves in that they were entirely without violence and none of the protesters in any of the countries were arrested--that has to be a first, in a protest of that scope) there are another series of protests being planned for March 15th--sort of a "Happy Birthday" to Hubbard, whose birthday was apparently March 13th and not conveniently on a Saturday this year. I've also heard some mention of plans for April, but not being an Anon, I don't know the details.
IIRC, one of the Anonymous-sponsored websites is youfoundthecard.com; it's worth looking into.
Re:My guess is... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:short answer (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:short answer (Score:5, Insightful)
They run a despicable business that can only survive thanks to litigation.
This story of E-bay associating with CO$ cannot possibly be good for E-bay's reputation.
Re:short answer (Score:5, Informative)
No, because case precedent says there are certain rights you can't legally sign away. Slavery and your life are included in that. They are deemed rights which you can't legally waive. Ever. (*)
No, because the contract is prima facie [wikipedia.org] invalid -- meaning, it wasn't ever a valid contract, so trying to enforce the terms of said contract is meaningless.
Cheers
(*) There could be some place where you could, but that place shares no legal history with us.
Re:short answer (Score:5, Interesting)
I think the government should give $cientology a choice; either be a religion, in which case you can't sue, you can't seek special favors from companies over the resale of your products, and so forth, or you're not a religion, and you're a business, in which case you've got to pay taxes on moneys or products changing hands.
And in either case, their lawyers should be disbarred for multiple cases of malicious prosecution.
Or, in short form, FUCK $CIENTOLOGY.
Who cares? (Score:5, Insightful)
What they're really trying to control is the purchase of scientology collectables by non-scientologists.
Is this legal? (Score:5, Insightful)
Of course, I'm no lawyer, but I've heard that everyone on Slashdot is.
this = Scientology (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:this = Scientology (Score:4, Interesting)
And then there's this:
http://www.xenu-directory.net/news/19920912-globeandmail.html [xenu-directory.net]
Re:Is this legal? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Is this legal? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Is this legal? (Score:5, Interesting)
Imagine if the makers of the other products out there followed suit. You would not be able to purchase second hand goods. Only directly from the original outlet. Kinda stifles the economy since the majority of vehicles out there are purchased as used items. Just one example but it would have a very bad impact if this method of controlling profit spreads.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
a Partial list [ebay.com]
yes of course it is (Score:5, Insightful)
The C of S is not "preventing the resale of their product," they're just preventing the resale through E-Bay and with E-Bay's cooperation. You can still put an ad in the paper and sell it, or put up a notice in your neighborhood market, or just walk around town with a sign attached to you saying "E-Meter Cheap!"
And who gives a shit what the lawyers think? Why should the law be relevant here? This isn't a question you want the lawyers thinking about, because you can be damn sure that any solution they think up is going to cost you far more in cash and personal liberty than you would like to part with. Do you want there to be a law telling you what you can and cannot sell on your personal website? Do you want to have to get your Craigslist ad vetted by the police before it can go up? Do you want the FBI to have the right to interrogate you about whether you sold your pet cat or unused furniture to the right people, and in the right way?
Christ, let us keep the lawyers in the fridge, OK? If there's a big market for secondhand E-meters, and E-Bay foolishly foregoes it because they want to keep the Scientologists happy, then let someone start up a private website devoted to reselling E-Meters, and he will make scads of money, more than enough to dare the "Church" to sue him, and get their clueless clock cleaned and get hit for beaucoup lawyer fees on top of it.
But what I suspect is that ex-Scientologists who want to recoup some of the financial loss associated with their recent vacation from rationality are a very small group, and while it kinda sucks that when there's very few of you and a whole lot of someone else (in this case, non-ex-Scientologists, or pre-ex-Scientologists), you have to tread carefully, that's just life in a wide-open democracy. It's not like an intelligent and determined person can't work around this problem fairly easily. I'm sure if I had an E-Meter to sell, I could do it easily enough without E-Bay or the Church getting a clue. Probably my 16-year-old could, too.
What will Anonymous do? (Score:5, Interesting)
Posting this AC because, frankly, I don't want anybody to think I'm advocating this. I'm just saying I wouldn't be surprised if it happened.
Re:What will Anonymous do? (Score:4, Interesting)
Mass false bidding on auctions or the like. Not to give suggestions or anything, but they could start sniping auction with fake accounts and never pay. Doing it on a large enough scale could affect eBay's bottom line. They could start spamming people with emails about how eBay is going broke. I'm sure there's plenty of other things I'm not even thinking about that they could do.
I hope that's just blustering... (Score:5, Funny)
Oh, okay. It's just blustering, after all. (Score:5, Funny)
In that case, never mind. It's much more likely that you executed a denial of service attack on your *own* machine than on eBay. I mean, you do know that Firefox has an upper limit on how many connections it will actually open at the same time, right? (Go to about:config and filter for "connect.") All other connections are just placed in a queue until Firefox has an available slot. The slowdown was entirely on your own machine and LAN.
I mean, honestly... Did you really think that you were being some sort of 1337 super-hax0r by using *one* machine on a single home or school connection to bog down one of the largest e-commerce sites on the planet?
(Oh, also, your proposed Million Loser March is more likely to DoS your proxy service than eBay itself.)
how direct an access is what bother me more (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:how direct an access is what bother me more (Score:5, Informative)
do they also have access to customer info? (Score:5, Insightful)
Yet another reason to not use EBay or PayPal.
Curious (Score:5, Interesting)
I wonder who at eBay is high up the kook-chain in Scientology?
Re:Curious (Score:5, Informative)
Well, if you RTFA, it has nothing to do with insider knowledge. Instead:
"The mechanism that permits the Church of Scientology (and others) such broad access and discretion is called the Verified Rights Owner ("VeRO") Program. Membership in VeRO is obtained simply by submitting a form to eBay explaining that you are an Intellectual Property rights holder. ... It should come as little surprise that VeRO members routinely overreach, as the cost of challenging a listing removal is almost always prohibitive. ... The VeRO Program makes a great deal of sense for some types of listings -- counterfeit Rolexes and Gucci handbags appear on eBay with such frequent regularity that those companies would be hard pressed to handle these trademark violations any other way."
eBay has more info about their VeRO program [ebay.com].
Basically, the original summary is misleading: lots of companies (e.g. copyright/trademark holders) have access to directly delete auctions on eBay. The Slyentologists are only one of many (but they're fun to pick on!).
does this work for every producer (Score:5, Interesting)
F-meter (Score:5, Funny)
Uh, what? (Score:5, Insightful)
Perhaps if they wanted to curb the resale of their devices, they should offer some sort of buy back program? They'll still turn around and sell them again and make a profit.
Off topic, yet... (Score:5, Informative)
http://www.xenu-directory.net/critics/lonsdale1.html [xenu-directory.net]
That's pretty sad.
mod parent up (Score:5, Insightful)
Ah, one more good reason... (Score:4, Insightful)
...to stop using eBay to sell your used stuff.
Anything for Tom (Score:5, Funny)
Thats it! (Score:4, Interesting)
indulgences (Score:5, Funny)
VERO Program (Score:4, Informative)
It's pretty obvious from the early comments that not many people RTFA. (Comments like, "I wonder who at eBay is high up the kook-chain in Scientology?" and all that.) This is an established EBay program called VERO that Scientology has joined, like a bunch of other manufacturers, and (big surprise) happens to be abusing.
Re:VERO Program (Score:4, Insightful)
In any case, it's a lazy way for EBay to enforce rights compliance.
Similarly, Mormon garments are another item that seem to take advantage of this program, so it's not exactly unheard of. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_garment/ [wikipedia.org]
Ebay is right on schedule (Score:5, Insightful)
Wonderful (Score:3, Funny)
The cat is out of the bag anyway (Score:5, Interesting)
For those who can't figure out the diagram, it's basically a Wheatstone bridge with a simple (crappy) differential amplifier. It's the sort of thing anyone could build from pennies worth of components.
This is perfectly legal (Score:5, Interesting)
The CoS is not doing anything illegal either, since they are acting now as an agent of E bay.
But I think a much better question is, what did scientology do to eBay to get them to agree to this?
$3700 Wheatstone bridges? (Score:4, Funny)
The name of the product is the "Mark VIII Super Quantum E-meter". A Wheatstone bridge, however, works on completely classical principles.
Or maybe resistance is quantized, with one quantum of resistance being equal to the extra resistance from one extra thetan hanging around?
Re:$3700 Wheatstone bridges? (Score:4, Insightful)
Also, as a result of the fruitless '60-s investication of the CoS and it's E-meters by the IRS, the church had to add a disclaimer on all E-meters sold since then that the device in itself did nothing and was only to be used by trained or in-training Scientology ministers. Perhaps this is one reason that is motivating them to control the resale of used E-meters- so that they aren't accused of violating that '60s ruling by the IRS.
That's my $.02
It's functional? (Score:4, Insightful)
And: it sounds like it was named by an eight-year-old.
a bit misleading (Score:4, Informative)
Interestingly people who are targeted by this can file a DMCA counter claim and bring the issue into the court system. I hope this guy does that - maybe some of the CoS's practices can finally see the light of day.
Re:a bit misleading (Score:5, Insightful)
E-meter like a condom (Score:5, Funny)
Holy crap NO (Score:5, Insightful)
Given Scientology's record of fraud and abuse, should eBay give them this level of trust?
The answer is right there. Would you want any group with Scientology's record of fraud and abuse to have access to anything important?
What do you want to bet they'd pull auctions of other Scientology-questionable stuff that isn't e meters?
Put a DVD copy of Anonymous' Scientology protests [youtube.com] up for sale and watch what happens. What do you want to bet that it winds up deleted? Blocking e meter sales my ass - this is nothing more than some goofy cult making decisions about what you're allowed to buy. Don't let it happen!
These people are batshit fucking insane. Don't legitimize them by giving them any sort of power, control, or authority whatsoever.
Most important reason: (Score:5, Insightful)
According to eBay's VeRO ToS they will gladly hand this information over.
eBay changes search for "emeter" into "exeter" (Score:4, Interesting)
In the search box type (without quotes) "emeter". If you type it with the quotes, that's different.
What happens? You perform a search for "exeter"!
I'm sure it isn't anything sinister, though. A search for "cimputer" is changed into a search for "computer". But it sure is confusing.
Completely Misleading (Score:5, Insightful)
The VeRO program does not provide direct access to eBay's database to delete items. It is a fast-track for manufacturers to submit deletion requests for items they believe are infringing on their copyrights. Every time an auction is deleted, the VeRO program gives eBay the proper documents holding the manufacturers legally responsible for their claim of copyright infringement.
Taking a simple look at the program's description [ebay.com] reveals that ANY auction being deleted through this program can be reinstated, automatically, by the user, within 10 days. They simply have to do the same thing the manufacturer did: claim legal responsibility for their auction, in writing.
Now, there's no doubt that I, as a private individual, would never risk challenging the very well funded battery of lawyers the Church of Scientology has to keep me in line. Even though I know they have no leg to stand on, I can't afford the legal battle. But I wouldn't cry that its eBay's fault, when eBay gave me the option to directly challenge the "manufacturer".
Re:Completely Misleading (Score:5, Informative)
Microsoft vs. the Church of Scientology (Score:5, Funny)
A: One is a wealthy and powerful criminal enterprise bent on world domination, while the other, ah, ummm.... Microsoft has better health benefits.
Another example of the abusive VERO program (Score:5, Informative)
Try reselling Weight Watchers program materials. They get deleted on a regular basis because Weight Watchers doesn't like it if you resell them. There's no legal basis for this, and if you push the issue with eBay, the response you get is "Well, they said they don't want you selling them, so too bad." They tell you to "take it up with Weight Watchers" who says "We say you can't sell them, and that's that."
VeRO is a bullshit program that lets eBay wash their hands of legitimate issues on the site and that gives companies ridiculously too much power. Do you think that if I set up a stand at a flea market reselling legally acquired materials, that the flea market owners would stand for the publisher of those materials walking around with a rubber hose and yanking the items away if I tried to sell them?
This isn't news, hopefully this just pushes VeRO into the public eye and convinces eBay to get rid of it, or to force "rights owners" (I wasn't aware that a "right to prevent resale" existed) to actually file individual complaints based on some sort of legal theory to delist an item, not just "We don't want these resold." Scn is abusing it like they abuse everything else, but this system seems to be made specifically to facilitate abuse.
Open letter to eBay (Score:5, Funny)
Get some balls.
Sincerely,
Me
E-Bay has been doing this since 1998! (Score:5, Interesting)
You see, Microsoft wanted to engage in illegal price fixing, and killed my auctions reselling copies of Microsoft software that I had won as door prizes.
I had never agreed to a license agreement, so I was not bound by it, but eBay still allowed Microsoft to kill my auctions.
It was only after I won my small-claims lawsuit against eBay for breech of contract, and another small claims court suit against Microsoft for slander that I got another eBay account. That's why my account says "since 1999."
Anyway, great job hopping on this story 9 years later,
Andy
E-Meter? Ha! (Score:5, Funny)
An E-Meter is no match for the "Church of Jobs" iMeter!
Re:easy answer -or- +5 insightful (Score:5, Informative)
Re:What fraud and abuse? (Score:5, Informative)
Any Scientologists reading this topic have no doubt already heard about Bare Faced Messiah and the lies contained within it, invented (of course) by the Church's enemies in order to discredit Hubbard and his ideas. To you I say: what if your perception of reality is wrong? What if you have been lied to, that a sort of Matrix has been built around you by your friends and colleagues at the Church? Wouldn't you at least like to see what other people's reality looks like? No need to take any pills, the truth might be a click away...
Re:Hill v. Scientology (Score:4, Interesting)
A lawyer working for the Church of Scientology stood on the steps of a courthouse in fancy lawyer gowns and said they were going to commence a criminal contempt proceeding against a Crown (State) attorney. This violated the ethical guidelines of the lawyer, threatened an officer of the State, and impugned the credibility of that officer and of the judicial system itself.
The attorney and CoS were fined $300,000 each, and CoS $500,000 in aggravated damages and $800,000 in punitive damages.
I would presume this has been enforced. The CoS is still operating just down the street from where I work.
I am sorry. (Score:4, Interesting)
I am sorry for you my friend. I would suggest you see the story of people who where in Scientology for more than 20 years [xenutv.com] and were even "OT7" (whatever that means). Of course, I do not know if your church allows you to see such videos. (I would not count on that.. In fact i am surprised that your CoS nanny filter allows you to get into slashdot.
Do not get me wrong, I have nothing about the Scientology religion, it is the "church" the one I think is bad. Similarly to how the Catholic church was bad some years ago (Spanish Incquisition). I know there are groups of people that follow the same beliefs as Scientologists, but they cannot call themselves Scientologists because they would get sued (WTF?).
And, lastly, just for curiosity, do you *really* believe in Xenu and all those things described in OT3 ?
Hope you the best! And I really hope you remember my post in some 10 years when you get out of Scientology and look back at all the years you wasted.