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ISP Block on Pirate Bay Not Having Desired Effect

Posted by ScuttleMonkey on Mon Feb 11, 2008 02:03 PM
from the never-underestimate-the-pirates dept.
The Internet Censorship
TechDirt is reporting that the recent block placed on The Pirate Bay torrent site is not only relatively ineffective, but actually driving more traffic to the site because of the attention. "The news from The Pirate Bay appears to confirm this suspicion. According to The Pirate Bay's new Court Blog, Danish traffic has not dropped since the implementation of the block. '...the number of visits from Denmark has increased by 12% thanks to IFPI,' the blog post reads. 'Our site http://thejesperbay.org is growing more because of the media attention than people actually coming to learn how to bypass the filter - our guess is that alot of the users on the site now run OpenDNS instead of the censoring DNS at Tele2.dk.' 'We also started tracking some stats before and after the block. There's no noticeable difference between the number of users from Tele2.dk before and after.'"

Related Stories

[+] Courts Force Danish ISP to Block Torrent Tracker 145 comments
Pirate writes "A Danish court ruled in favor of the IFPI, and ordered the Danish ISP Tele2 to block all access to the popular BitTorrent tracker. The Pirate Bay, currently ranked 28th in the list of most visited sites in Denmark, is working on countermeasures."
[+] Danish ISP Tele2 Challenges Pirate Bay Blockade 129 comments
krasmussen writes "After Monday's injunction on Danish ISP Tele2 to block access to The Pirate Bay, the company has now decided to take the case further in court. 'We do not like being put in a role where we as ISP have to regulate people's freedom of speech' says Nicholai Pfeiffer, regulatory manager i Telenor, which owns Tele2. However, because the current ruling against Tele2 still stands, the customers are not going to regain access to The Pirate Bay at the moment."
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  • Oblig. Quote: (Score:5, Insightful)

    by TripMaster Monkey (862126) on Monday February 11 2008, @02:06PM (#22381160)
    "The Net treats censorship as damage and routes around it."

    -- John Gilmore
    • YAARRRRR!!! Ye be right, Matey! It be Gasparilla here in Tampa, and thar be pirates! Ye shall not censor us, ye Landubbers! Now walk the plank! YAAAARRRRR!!!!!

    • Truth, ignorance, and condoms. (Score:5, Insightful)

      by erick99 (743982) * <homerun@gmail.com> on Monday February 11 2008, @02:17PM (#22381300) Homepage
      That is absolutely true but most folks in government (worldwide) don't seem to get that. It's as if the people who typically go after Internet issues haven't spent much time using it outside of checking the weather and ordering condoms (size extra small) from Amazon.

    • ObResponse: (Score:5, Insightful)

      by _KiTA_ (241027) on Monday February 11 2008, @03:17PM (#22382058) Homepage

      "The Net treats censorship as damage and routes around it."

      -- John Gilmore
      "But what if censorship is in the router?"

        -- Seth Finkelstein

      • Re:Oblig. Quote: (Score:5, Insightful)

        by mpe (36238) on Monday February 11 2008, @03:05PM (#22381880)
        And the Net also has another interesting trait. It seems operate with a variation of Netwon's 3rd law. For every action there is an opposite + magnified reaction.

        This has more to do with human behaviour and predates "the Net".
        Banning (or attempting to ban) just about anything is actually a very good way of advertising something. People who would otherwise never have heard about the whatever wanting to find out what all the fuss is about.

        • Re:Oblig. Quote: (Score:5, Insightful)

          by Jarjarthejedi (996957) <bookreader13@@@cox...net> on Monday February 11 2008, @06:50PM (#22384562) Journal
          However it is only in the age of the internet that you can easily gain access to something that is supposedly banned, at least in the EuroAmerican world (countries behind firewalls are a different story). Banning a book removes it from all bookstores and libraries and so makes it hard to acquire. Banning an internet site (or at least blackholing it like was done here) removes it from all government regulated areas of the internet, which is very small. It's like trying to ban a book without the power to stop importation or monitor smaller bookstores, you can get it removed from the big stores (the main DNS servers) but that will only serve to advertise the book and make it more popular in the smaller shops and to be imported.

          As a sidenote, OpenDNS for the win.

  • This is exactly... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by snl2587 (1177409) on Monday February 11 2008, @02:08PM (#22381188)

    ...what everyone thought, I suppose. I'm wondering: did any of the legislators consult a single tech guy? I don't agree with filtering, but this is just embarrassing.

    • Re:This is exactly... (Score:5, Interesting)

      by ivan256 (17499) on Monday February 11 2008, @02:11PM (#22381232)
      Unfortunately, they probably did. I know several well paid network engineers and sysadmins who really have no understanding of how the internet works, and would think a local ISP DNS block would work. The typical training for these positions is heavy on the "how", and light on the "why".

      • They know very well this doesn't work (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Per Abrahamsen (1397) on Monday February 11 2008, @02:45PM (#22381608) Homepage
        The tele2 tech guys I know are quite competent. It is just that it is not in their, not in their employers, interest to implement an effective filter. So they do the absolutely minimal amount of work they have to do, in order to comply with this "small claims" court order.

      • Re:This is exactly... (Score:5, Insightful)

        by KillerBob (217953) on Monday February 11 2008, @03:30PM (#22382228)

        Unfortunately, they probably did. I know several well paid network engineers and sysadmins who really have no understanding of how the internet works, and would think a local ISP DNS block would work. The typical training for these positions is heavy on the "how", and light on the "why".


        More realistically, they know exactly why it isn't working and aren't trying very hard to implement it. It's called "paying lip-service". A DNS block does work fine, as long as your users don't want to, or don't try to circumvent it. Case in point, I'm using DNS block on my home/small business network to block out adservers, using the list from http://pgl.yoyo.org/as/ [yoyo.org]. Works great, because nobody on the network has any interest at all in circumventing it. If I were blocking something like Google, the users would riot. And they'd switch to a different DNS server.

        Most people in the kind of position where they'd be able to implement a DNS block know that the only way to enforce it would be to block DNS traffic at the routers... or to silently redirect DNS traffic to the ISP's DNS server, something that's ridiculously easy to do with most routers/gateways/firewalls.

      • Its not technical ignorance, its cultural (Score:5, Insightful)

        by deft (253558) on Monday February 11 2008, @04:30PM (#22382986) Homepage
        The vast majority of people on the net probably have little knowledge of how to bypass the block, and would be helpless to do anything. It may be correct.

        The component they seem to miss is the resolve of those people that know how to do it to not only adapt their system to access anything they want, but to then make the fix for it easily accessible to the masses. They are willing to write scripts, make interfaces, patches, websites, directions, etc so that anyone can do it.

        Thats the component they miss, and it is not a technical lack of understanding, but a cultural one.

    • Re:This is exactly... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by xappax (876447) on Monday February 11 2008, @02:22PM (#22381360) Homepage
      Perhaps the ISP itself does not agree with the spirit of the censorship, and are merely going through the motions to satisfy the court and cover their asses. Basically, maybe they don't care whether people get around the block.

    • That was a rhetorical question, right? (Score:5, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 11 2008, @02:36PM (#22381510)
      did any of the legislators consult a single tech guy?

      Of course they did, because married tech guys are just too hard to find.

  • OpenDNS (Score:4, Interesting)

    by kextyn (961845) on Monday February 11 2008, @02:09PM (#22381200)
    Why is anyone still using the DNS info provided by their ISP? I have been happy with OpenDNS for quite a while now. A lot of people may not think about what DNS server they're using untill something like this happens. My old ISP (Cox) is what made me use OpenDNS. They started blocking access to some certain questionable sites (relating to cracking programs.) They had good reason to though because the site was full of popups which always make my anti-virus go crazy. But since I use Opera I didn't see any of them unless I wanted to.

    • Re:OpenDNS (Score:5, Informative)

      by arivanov (12034) on Monday February 11 2008, @02:13PM (#22381258) Homepage
      You are asking the wrong question.

      The right question is: Why an ISP claiming to censor and filter is not transparently proxying DNS?

      It is the easiest protocol to abuse. A single line NAT entry can do the trick. 99.9% of access equipment out there is capable of doing that. Just add it to the default user profile along with the mandatory web proxy/cache and other similar lines.

        • Re:OpenDNS (Score:5, Interesting)

          by TripMaster Monkey (862126) on Monday February 11 2008, @02:54PM (#22381742)

          How long before OpenDNS or equivalent services offer a VPN'ed/encrypted method of getting to their DNS servers? Then all your ISP is going to see is a bunch of connections to IP addresses with no underlying DNS queries.

          Interesting question. Here's another one, following the path you suggested:

          How long before RIAA/MPAA attempts to have said OpenDNS encrypted DNS query service shut down, on the grounds that it facilitates piracy?

    • Re:OpenDNS (Score:5, Informative)

      by Simon (S2) (600188) on Monday February 11 2008, @02:25PM (#22381392) Homepage

      Why is anyone still using the DNS info provided by their ISP? I have been happy with OpenDNS for quite a while now.

      I don't use (only) OpenDNS because I don't like being tracked and their search page that pops up when you type a wrong address. I run my own caching name server (dnsmasq) that draws from a pool of DNS servers (OpenDNS too) and I get rid of their stupid search page with

      bogus-nxdomain=208.69.32.131
      bogus-nxdomain=208.69.32.130
      This is much faster than using a name server that is not in your intranet and has the advantage that I can give names to all machines in my lan (laptop, xbox, mediacenter, mobile phone...), and if one nameserver goes down or blocks something, there are others in my pool.

      • Re:OpenDNS (Score:5, Informative)

        by davidu (18) on Tuesday February 12 2008, @02:47AM (#22388960) Homepage Journal

        I don't use (only) OpenDNS because I don't like being tracked...
        We don't track you. The stats and charts are for your network only and we only log that if you tell us to. Additionally, we provide a clear "don't log my queries" option along with a "purge all historical data" button in the interface to make everything crystal clear.
        It doesn't get much more transparent -- or easier -- than that. Users without an account do not have their DNS requests logged, obviously.
        We're running a service used by hundreds of thousands of IT professionals and millions of users around the world -- we can't even keep stats fast enough as it is for the users who want them, let alone deal with everyone else.
        -david (CEO and occasional janitor over at OpenDNS)

    • Re:OpenDNS (Score:4, Insightful)

      by urbanriot (924981) on Monday February 11 2008, @02:25PM (#22381396)
      Because some of us don't trust OpenDNS's DNS filtering to think for us, and prefer to have unmoderated DNS results. Not to mention, my ISP's DNS resolving is considerably faster than OpenDNS's.

      Why is anyone still using the DNS info provided by their ISP? I have been happy with OpenDNS for quite a while now.

  • Streisand effect (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Phyrexicaid (1176935) on Monday February 11 2008, @02:17PM (#22381308)
    Seriously, does no one advise upper management that trying to block something on the internet just draws *more* attention to it? Happens over and over.

  • An interesting thought... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Pojut (1027544) on Monday February 11 2008, @02:55PM (#22381756) Homepage
    ...even if a far-fetched one. Say this trend continues...illegal downloading of music, movies, books, games, etc. There will ALWAYS be people that will buy their media, or at least some of it. What happens when the number of people stealing outnumbers those buying to the point where these corps are actually losing money? I don't just mean their sales have gone down, I mean to the point where they are in the red, no longer making any profit.

    I think what will happen is already happening. People are figuring out that hey, for only a few thousand dollars, I can BUY the equipment to make my own music or movie, and release it independently.

    Consider this. I invest $15,000 in some very respectable music equipment. I write all the songs, perform all the instruments, record it all, and master the mix. I then put up a website on a domain that costs me 10 bucks to register and only 15 bucks to host. I sell the music in multiple no-DRM formats on my website. In addition, I upload it onto various torrent sites, and include in the file a readme with a link to my website asking that people buy it. I upload a link to the site on Digg, Stumbleupon, Reddit, etc. I post the link in forums, in newsgroups. I submit my stuff to internet radio stations, post it on MySpace/Facebook...I even spend a little bit more money to get some advertising on various gaming and independent music websites. Let's assume that with all of this, my costs are now sitting right around $20,000 for total amount invested (not including time, of course.)

    Assuming that my work is good and that people like it, I have the potential to make more money than I would with a record deal. Not only that, but I would OWN the equipment that I had made the album with, which I could then either sell, or I could keep and record another album thus making more money (especially since it would be a one time investment)

    I'm not saying it would be easy, but the potential to earn far more than I invest is definitely there. By putting the album up on torrent sites and such with a link to my website, I am building an empire. I am getting free advertising. I am getting word of mouth. I am getting EXPOSURE, and it's not really costing me much of anything.

    THIS is what will eventually be the downfall of the music industry (the movie industry not so much...equipment has definitely come a long way, but it's still very expensive compared to producing an album). The music industry won't be driven out of business by people downloading their crap for free...it will be little old me with full creative and distributive control over MY creation. It will be people KNOWING they can download my album because they don't have to worry about any lawyers running after them. It will be people SUPPORTING an artist like me, because I am doing the same thing they are: looking for new musicians who are doing it all on their own.

    (Note: I am not actually doing this...I can barely play the nose whistle, much less any other instrument)

  • It's going to court (Score:5, Informative)

    by MortenLJ (686173) on Monday February 11 2008, @03:07PM (#22381908)
    An article in a mainstream Danish newspaper [politiken.dk] says that the case is going to court, other ISP's are actually chipping in to fund Tele2's suit against the imposed restriction.

    • Eh, wha? (Score:5, Informative)

      by SmallFurryCreature (593017) on Monday February 11 2008, @02:30PM (#22381446) Journal
      You must be an american. The number of movies produced in the rest of the world is GREATER then the number of movies produced in the US, or even if you start calling every country that has english as a main language being clubbed together (wonder how the french part of canada feels about it).

      This is only logical, while english is a very common language and a great many people speak it as their second, third language, it is not the most common language.

      In europe, most tv-stations, even the commercial ones are man-dated by law to provide a certain amount of "native" broadcasting. That is why the station RTL4 which was clearly aimed at dutch audience spend money on a luxemburg program block in the early hours to satisfy the law (they were based there using a loophole).

      Childerens tv in holland has had a strong EU only feel to it in my youth, simply because US programs did not meet EU regs against advertising to childeren.

      As for how it is affected, it is not even clear yet how copyright infringement affects hollywood, how it affects local cinema in the rest of the world is anyones guess. We certainly are not going to get the truth about it from the media, they after all have a rather direct intrest in the matter.

      So far however it seems to matter little, Remember non-hollywood movies tend not to pay quit as much to their stars. This matters a lot, to pay those idiotic salaries a Tom Hanks gets you need to make massive profits. Pay them a more modest wage and you have a lot more room.

      Also what you claim about english content being more easily accepted in the rest of the world helps. I can far more easily find a seeded torrent of a US show then say a belgium program even if said program in the country itself is more popular.

    • Re:HuH ? (Score:4, Informative)

      by Actually, I do RTFA (1058596) on Monday February 11 2008, @02:44PM (#22381588)

      I certainly must have missed something. They are only doing a DNS level "block" of Pirate Bay? No shutting down of specific IP addresses that go to servers or at least some attempt at firewall (ie, Great Wall of China variant) filtering ?!?!?

      You are missing something. The ISP was ordered to block Pirate Bay, and is sueing so that they no longer will have to do so. Therefore, I have no doubt the effort to block it was knowingly prefunctory.

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