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EPA Asserts Executive Privilege In CA Emissions Case

Posted by Zonk on Sun Jan 20, 2008 05:33 PM
from the interesting-use-of-term-executive dept.
Brad Eleven writes "The AP reports that the United States Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) has invoked executive privilege to justify withholding information in its response to a lawsuit. The state of California is challenging the agency's decision to block their attempt to curb the emissions from new cars and trucks. In response, the EPA has delivered documents requested by the Freedom of Information Act for the discovery phase of the lawsuit — but the documents are heavily redacted. That is, the agency has revealed that it did spend many hours meeting to discuss the issue, but refuses to divulge the details or the outcomes of the meetings. Among the examples cited, 16 pages of a 43-page Powerpoint presentation are completely blank except for the page titles. An EPA spokesperson used language similar to other recent claims of executive privilege, citing 'the chilling effect that would occur if agency employees believed their frank and honest opinions and analysis expressed as part of assessing California's waiver request were to be disclosed in a broad setting.'"
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[+] Politics: States Set to Sue the U.S. Over Greenhouse Gases 440 comments
dnormant writes to tell us The New York Times is reporting that more than a dozen states are gearing up to sue the Bush administration for holding up efforts to regulate automobile emissions. "The move comes as New York and other Northeastern states are stepping up their push for tougher regulation of greenhouse gases as part of their continuing opposition to President Bush's policies. On Wednesday, Gov. Eliot Spitzer's administration is to issue regulations requiring power plants to pay for their greenhouse gas emissions, part of a broader plan among 10 Northeastern states, known as the Regional Greenhouse Gas Initiative, to move beyond federal regulators in Washington and regulate such emissions on their own."
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  • by creimer (824291) on Sunday January 20 2008, @05:39PM (#22119976) Homepage
    Wouldn't it be easier for the Bush administration to disband the courts to protect the nation from eco-terrorists in California? After all, a true democracy doesn't allow the courts to interfere with the government.
      • Re:Pakistan model... (Score:5, Interesting)

        by Zeinfeld (263942) on Sunday January 20 2008, @07:10PM (#22120792) Homepage
        How does anything anti-Bush get mod'ed as a troll? With all the lying, incompetence, turning the Justice Dept. into a stooge fest, exempting themselves from the law, wiretapping Americans, trampling on the Constitution, and plundering the nation's treasure who here still supports those asshats?

        There is a mailing list, mostly populated by folk who post on Little Green Footballs. They told folk to register for Slashdot several years back. Whenever there is a political story they send out a begging letter asking anyone with mod points to mod down the most threatening posts.

        They found out who I was and booted me off it a while back. I don't see why they would have stopped though.

        If you think something has been modded down unfairly repost it. They have rather fewer mod points than they need to supress all the negative comments on the administration.

  • Oh, spare me. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by ScrewMaster (602015) on Sunday January 20 2008, @05:39PM (#22119988)
    ... the chilling effect that would occur if agency employees believed their frank and honest opinions and analysis expressed as part of assessing California's waiver request were to be disclosed in a broad setting.

    You people work for us, We the People. Any analyses you perform should be a matter of public record. Get over yourselves.

    Furthermore, what is with "executive privilege" being used as a cover for bureaucratic malfeasance? We aren't talking nuclear secrets here, but matters of public policy.
    • Re:Oh, spare me. (Score:5, Insightful)

      by flyingsquid (813711) on Sunday January 20 2008, @05:50PM (#22120102)
      And why the hell is the Environmental Protection Agency trying to prevent states from protecting the environment? It's like we're living in 1984, where the Ministry of Peace wages war, the Ministry of Truth promotes propaganda, and the Ministry of Plenty produces shortages... nah. That comparison is probably going too far.

      On the plus side, I hear Dick Cheney increased the chocolate ration to 20 grams.

      Seriously, November 1 can't come soon enough. The way things are going we're looking for a showdown between Clinton and McCain. For a change, we may have a win-win choice this fall. Neither's perfect, but I think either will result in a return to sanity and pragmatism, and result in a massive improvement over the current administration.

      • Unvarnished: (Score:5, Insightful)

        by mdsolar (1045926) on Sunday January 20 2008, @06:20PM (#22120366) Homepage Journal
        EPA political appointee #1: "Ford is offering 0.5 billion in campaign contributions if we say no to California..."

        EPA political appointee #2: "I'll check with GM to see it they'll raise their offer."
      • Re:Oh, spare me. (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Tom (822) on Sunday January 20 2008, @06:35PM (#22120490) Homepage Journal
        I've become too cynical to believe that the people ever win anything in any election.

        Someone said it very well recently: The economy is all about money, and politics is all about power. Nowhere does the good of the people figure in or matter.
      • by QuantumG (50515) <qg@biodome.org> on Sunday January 20 2008, @06:44PM (#22120588) Homepage Journal
        I was more looking forward to the 5th of November.

        Although you probably won't remember it.

      • Re:Oh, spare me. (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Ralph Spoilsport (673134) on Sunday January 20 2008, @07:55PM (#22121166) Journal
        Seriously, November 1 can't come soon enough. The way things are going we're looking for a showdown between Clinton and McCain. For a change, we may have a win-win choice this fall. Neither's perfect, but I think either will result in a return to sanity and pragmatism, and result in a massive improvement over the current administration.

        No.

        I couldn't disagree more. Both are corporate shills who will keep the USA mired in Iraq for at least the next 8 years. They both are on their knees to the machine that is destroying not only the USA as a country, but the biosphere itself. They are both really really lame. Neither of them have a plan to deal with the impending energy crisis, nor do either of them have any idea how to deal with the ecocide that is part and parcel of the (according to Cheney) non-negotiable "American Way of Life" which is basically a practice of pillage and destruction. With a nice smiley face from Hollywood to make it all seem OK.

        :-)

        RS

    • Re:Oh, spare me. (Score:5, Insightful)

      by ivan256 (17499) on Sunday January 20 2008, @06:05PM (#22120246)
      Stop voting for the guy who tells you what you want to hear instead of the guy who tells the truth, and then maybe we can start to reverse the decades of this kind of crap.

      It'll never happen though.
      • Re:Oh, spare me. (Score:5, Insightful)

        by ScrewMaster (602015) on Sunday January 20 2008, @06:22PM (#22120372)
        instead of the guy who tells the truth

        Just out of curiosity, who is that guy? I'd really like to know, so I can vote for him (or her, and no Hillary is not the one.) All the candidates I see out there at the moment are liars and/or hypocrites, to one degree or another.
        • Re:Oh, spare me. (Score:5, Insightful)

          by MrCopilot (871878) on Sunday January 20 2008, @07:41PM (#22121024) Homepage Journal
          Just out of curiosity, who is that guy? I'd really like to know, so I can vote for him

          Dennis Kucinich, if you are a Dem and Ron Paul if you are a Republican (poor soul).

          Consequently, their tendency to tell the truth has all but eliminated either from serious consideration or even inclusion in later debates.

        • Re:Oh, spare me. (Score:5, Interesting)

          by fahrbot-bot (874524) on Sunday January 20 2008, @08:59PM (#22121666)
          instead of the guy who tells the truth

          Just out of curiosity, who is that guy? I'd really like to know, so I can vote for him ...

          Obviously an over-simplification, but chances are, if you don't like what they're saying, that's the truth. For example, does anyone really think lowering taxes will help pay off the 650+ billion dollars spent on Iraq? (Please save the "stimulates the economy" speech, I know it's more complex than either point of view.)

          Now since each politician distorts different things, the choice isn't always clear and simple. Pick your poison and stick with it.

          I want a President and Congress that will tackle the big issues, *then* the smaller ones. Here in Virginia, our legislators have wasted time trying to pick a new state song, and a bill to ban hanging anything that looks like testicles from trailor hitches. I can't even *imagine* what crap goes on at the federal level.

          For example, for me, a candidate that is anti- (abortion, gay marriage, flag burning) etc... is missing the point. While these topics are important, they are individual matters and the US has serious community problems like the debt, healthcare, immigration, employment, etc... Get these solved (for which, I don't know the answers), then work on the others.

          I know I will get shit-stormed by *someone* for using the above examples, so, not to inflame anyone's passions, but for the record, I am, and my wife was (she died two years ago):

          • pro-abortion: I'm a guy and (even if I disapproved, which I don't) I don't think it's my place to tell a woman what she can/can't do with her body. Husbands and wives may have difficult discussions about this, but it's her body,
          • pro-gay marraige: I would split what we call "marriage" it into civil and religious components - for everyone. A civil-union for the legal/tax/estate stuff, and marriage for the religious stuff - if your religion supports you. Everyone, gay or straight gets one, the other or both.
          • pro-flag burning: Seriously, what's the argument here? You can buy US flag underwear. People die protecting our rights, including free-expression. You don't like someone buring a flag, too bad - move to N Korea - bet you can't burn a flag there. I argue that the US is great *because* we can burn our flag.
    • "Executive privilege" -- yeah, that's exactly what they're doing.

      Executive privilege is designed to protect matters of national security. Not political blunders or malfeasance. We're talking about automobile emissions standards, not plans for building an F-117 for crying out loud.

      And California has a direct need to have higher standards than the rest of the freakin' country. Have you been to Los Angeles? *cough* *cough* The smog is horrible. And most of it is due to the rather large number of automobiles that operate on the roads there. Traffic sucks bad -- the streets are in constant gridlock.
      • by Khyber (864651) <khyberkitsune@gmail.com> on Sunday January 20 2008, @06:48PM (#22120626) Journal
        Head a little further east, into Riverside and Redlands. LA's exposure to the sea breeze drives their smog right into the inland empire, where it settles. LA may generate most of it, but the majority ends up settling in the valley. When we're lucky, we can see the mountains arund us at night. Usually it's just a haze and only the lights are visible.

        California doesn't need higher standards. California needs to start banning all old and out of tune automobiles, period. There's so many junker antiques running around that it's absolutely insane. Also, they need cleaner factories. They might as well start their own EPA while they're at it, because the one we already have isn't doing a goddamned thing. How do we get a vote to pull all of the EPA's funding into Congress?
    • Re:Oh, spare me. (Score:5, Insightful)

      by rucs_hack (784150) on Sunday January 20 2008, @06:48PM (#22120622)
      You people work for us, We the People. Any analyses you perform should be a matter of public record. Get over yourselves.

      Why should they? If all you do is mutter on slashdot they've got nothing to worry about. Outside of the techie world how many people even know what a news discussion site is?

      The problem about just saying you should have your rights under the constitution is that the people who got the opportunity to create it and then wrote it actually did fight, and many suffered and came over all dead. You don't compare well to them, except in the 'gathering to discuss their grievances' bit.

      You need to do something about it aside from talk is the point I'm making.

      I can't, I'm not American, but I would if I had to in my own country.
      • Re:Oh, spare me. (Score:5, Insightful)

        by BeanThere (28381) on Sunday January 20 2008, @06:15PM (#22120328)

        In this age of climate change hysteria, if you did research that ended up suggested otherwise would you like to have it out there with your name on it?

        If the research is solid, then yes, of course, why not? If fear over climate change is just 'hysteria', then the scientific process will over time eventually push the truth to the service, and what scientific researcher wouldn't want his/her name associated with pioneering good research that revealed the truth? You think scientists would rather lie and be buried anonymously than reveal a truth that puts them ahead of everyone else?

        It will be effectively impossible for anyone to debunk the research if it is genuinely good, because that's how science works.

      • Re:Oh, spare me. (Score:5, Insightful)

        by ScrewMaster (602015) on Sunday January 20 2008, @07:41PM (#22121030)
        You apparently don't understand the point.

        Nobody's saying that all such things should be performed in public, but the record of their dealings damn well should be. Period! If their actions are not justifiable, then we need and have every right to know that, so we can get rid of these assholes and put in people that are more trustworthy. The issue here is that an important matter of public record, one that affects many millions of people, is being hidden from us using a flimsy excuse and a misuse of "executive privilege." If that doesn't at least smell like malfeasance in office to you, you must have a problem with your olfactory organs.
  • Que? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by ScouseMouse (690083) on Sunday January 20 2008, @05:40PM (#22120008) Homepage
    Surely, the executive privilege thing is to protect state secrets, not to protect state officals? If Something someone says wouldn't hold up to scrutiny, they shouldn't be saying it for an official document?, particularly one that goes against what the local politicians have decided?
  • by jon787 (512497) on Sunday January 20 2008, @05:44PM (#22120046) Homepage Journal

    "citing 'the chilling effect that would occur if agency employees believed their frank and honest opinions and analysis expressed as part of assessing California's waiver request were to be disclosed in a broad setting."


    So why not just redact the names and leave the statements intact? Oh yeah, that would actually make sense.
  • Typical Bureaucrats (Score:5, Interesting)

    by rossz (67331) <ogre@geekb[ ]r.net ['ike' in gap]> on Sunday January 20 2008, @05:48PM (#22120082) Homepage Journal
    They hide information for the sake of hiding information. You're reducing pollution, asshole, not hunting down terrorists so there should NEVER be any reason to withhold any information from the public, let alone a court of law.

    The law should be: By default all information is public. The government must PROVE there is an overriding security reason to keep something a secret. And not wanting to be embarrassed isn't good enough. Hiding information to save someone's political career is an argument FOR releasing the data.
  • Sickening... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by HotNeedleOfInquiry (598897) on Sunday January 20 2008, @06:02PM (#22120218)
    Ok, I'm a business owner and that makes it hard for me to be a Demo. Furthermore, I'm a California citizen and I'm generally opposed to "Moonbeam" Jerry Brown and his environmental soapbox posing. So you see, I'm not a screeming liberal by any means.

    That said, this just really sucks. The Freedom of Information act was possibly the most effective means to hold the government accountable in my lifetime. Bush and company have no respect for it and think that they can arbitrarily ignore it. In the words of Emo Philips, "They need to be tought a lesson". Run their asses back to Texas along with all their followers, cronies and hacks. I'm greatly sick of all of this.
  • by dprovine (140134) on Sunday January 20 2008, @07:03PM (#22120738)

    As with previous examples, it's not that they fear a chilling effect on candid advice, it's that the advice they gave wasn't for the good of the country. They advised the EPA to do what was good for their industries, and that's bad press.

    In an interview on the Newshour http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/media/jan-june01/schorr_5-29.html [pbs.org] in 2001, Daniel Schorr was asked what he'd learned about government after years of covering it, and he answered:

    What I learned about that was, first of all, that power exercised in secret is frequently exercised in the stupid... most stupid possible way.

    If people knew that their malfeasance was going to go public some day, and be exposed to the light, they would be less comfortable tell all the lies they tell in the dark.

    • Re:It's their job (Score:5, Insightful)

      by ivan256 (17499) on Sunday January 20 2008, @06:09PM (#22120294)

      If they are afraid to tell the truth, then something is seriously amiss


      In Michigan we recently had an election where two candidates stood up and talked about how they were going to help the state's economy. One said he would train the workers to do economically sustainable jobs, and the other lied out his ass about how he was going to bring back jobs that our economy can't possibly support when competing with cheap labor from China. The liar won the election.

      So yes. Things are seriously amiss. But make sure you point that finger in the right direction.
      • by TheMiddleRoad (1153113) on Sunday January 20 2008, @06:54PM (#22120690)
        Not even close to the truth. Here's a quote from http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2001/0207.schaeffer.html [washingtonmonthly.com] "The Bush administration faced a dilemma: How do you mount a stealth attack on environmental protection without making the most obvious mistakes of the Reagan-Gorsuch era? The first step was to appoint as EPA administrator Christine Whitman, who provides a moderate face, but already had a reputation for gutting anti-pollution enforcement programs while she was governor of New Jersey. Another was to leave the enforcement program rudderless: 18 months into his term, Bush has not yet filled the top EPA enforcement job (his first nominee, Donald Schregardus, withdrew amid criticism of his record running Ohio's program). Leaving the job unfilled not only deprives the staff of leadership, but also robs the administration's critics of an actual person to blame for poor performance. Bush political appointees in the White House and EPA quickly took up the many other ways of thwarting enforcement without drawing attention. Here are a few of their tricks:" And it goes on and on and on. Bush eviscerated the EPA.