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National ID Cards Mandated in the US, If You're Under 50
Posted by
ScuttleMonkey
on Fri Jan 11, 2008 01:05 PM
from the 1984-is-about-the-good-old-days dept.
from the 1984-is-about-the-good-old-days dept.
charleste writes "CNN is reporting that the US Homeland Security Department has mandated Real ID for drivers licenses. According to the article, this will not include a 'chip', but a list of options by state. Despite legislation passed in various states and objections by groups such as ACLU, this appears to be a done deal. Without one of the new IDs you will be unable to board a plane after 2014 if you are under 50."
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REAL ID In Its Death Throes, Says ACLU 315 comments
Dr. Eggman points us to Ars Technica for an article on the ACLU's view of the latest loosening and deadline extensions for REAL ID act compliance by the Department of Homeland Security. The rights organization believes that REAL ID is doomed. "The ACLU, which opposes the plan on civil liberties grounds, says that the many changes made since the Act was passed [in 2005] nearly 'negate the original intent of the program.' 'DHS is essentially whittling Real ID down to nothing... all in the name of denying Real ID is a failure,' said ACLU senior legislative counsel Tim Sparapani. 'Real ID is in its death throes, and any signs of life are just last gasps.'"
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Papers please (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Papers please (Score:5, Funny)
Man in Black Coat in Alley: "Would you like a real fake ID or a fake Real ID?"
Citizen: "Well, I'm only 18 so I need both."
Man in Black Coat in Alley: "Very good, sir. Now, remember when you're buying alcohol, you're a 22 year old student named James Huffington from Rhode Island. When you're boarding a plane, you are Agnes Krakaour, age 51
Citizen: "Thank you so much!"
Re:Papers please (Score:5, Insightful)
You got a +5 funny but it should have been +5 insightful. I don't care how many smartchips or anti-counterfeiting features they add to our licenses, it will still be possible for people to counterfeit them. In the extreme example, somebody motivated enough to obtain a false id would just pay off the right person at DMV to obtain a legitimate one. Hell, if you think that doesn't happen right now then you are deluding yourself.
I don't recall reading that any of the 9/11 hijackers used fake IDs to get onto the airplanes. They obtained them quite legally. Perhaps we should be looking into reforming who can obtain a drivers license, rather then reforming the drivers license itself.
Or better yet: Perhaps we should stop all of this Orwellian nonsense to begin with and just accept the fact that we live in a dangerous world and I'd personally rather have my civil liberties and live with that basic fact then trade them in for the illusion of security.
Re:Papers please (Score:5, Insightful)
Thank you!
I gotta say, I dunno where all this fear comes from. Personally, I'm more afraid of the govt. screwing me over or a glitch in the system, preventing me from doing something (flying, entering public building, banking) than a terrorist blowing me up.
I mean, the odds of something happening wrong with the govt. that I deal with quite a lot throughout my life is much greater than Habib lighting a fuze somewhere near where I'm standing at any given time.
Re:Papers please (Score:5, Interesting)
I'll give you a hint: "If we make the wrong choice, then the danger is that we'll get hit again -- that we'll be hit in a way that will be devastating from the standpoint of the United States" -Dick Cheney
Seriously. Our own Government has done a lot more to make us afraid of terrorism then the terrorists themselves have done. How depressing that in 60 years we've gone from "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself" to "Buy duct tape!".
And let's stick to flea bites, shall we? (Score:5, Insightful)
It's not the fear of a 3000 casualty hit and loss of buildings... it's the fear of something bigger.
The fact is Al Qaeda is relatively overblown. They may be the only group with a global reach, but their global reach isn't that significant. Think about it, they got 19 guys in to hijack planes when the assumption was don't fight hijackers, they generally let everything go peacefully. They hit two buildings, but before they were supposed to (they obviously wanted to simultaneously hit them after 9 AM to maximize damage), 30 minutes apart, and too high to maximize damage.
The fact is, for all the bluster of Islamic Terrorists, they haven't done anything impressive. The most impressive operation was Hezbollah's holding off of Israel, and even that was a joke. They claimed a military victory, but only in the Arab world can your land be occupied by a foreign power, you hold none of their territory, and your roads and bridges are destroyed yet you are victorious because it took more than a week to wipe you out. That, like 9/11, is overplayed. Israel retooled their military once they had a reminder that "surrounded by enemies" isn't just PR, it's real and requires your military be prepared for an actual war, not just policing malcontents in disputed land, and by the time people heard on the 4th plane that they weren't negotiating, they were blowing things up, the people on the plane took it over and ended the issue.
That said, we should keep an eye on things, because these people do just want to inflict lots of damage... fortunately they aren't that bright. If you haven't noticed, every middle eastern "nuclear weapons program," despite years of effort, somehow is always X years/months away, where X is always longer than the Manhattan project. I have no doubt that the Arab world has it's share of brilliant minds (they were the scientific leaders for centuries), but in the Arab world, decades of oppressive dictatorships have managed to kill or exile every independent thinker, and now they seem incapable of anything impressive, and their government projects are run by total morons.
If Al Qaeda had their act together, 9/11 would have been a start to a wave. Hitting soft targets every week would have caused massive financial collapse in America... if everyone was scared to go to shopping malls because bombs were going off weekly, consumer spending would have contracted and US economic might would have fell apart. Fortunately, the Islamic terrorists aren't that bright, and are more interested in big flashy things to make recruiting videos, not about actually waging war with the US. These movements need a steady supply of naive, bored young teenagers and 20 somethings, so their goal is projects that would be exciting to an upper middle class Arab youth that is bored with life.
Instead of living on daddies money and getting stoned in college while talking up socialism over the pizza put on the Gold Card, like their American counterparts, they can convinced to blow themselves up to fight the US/Israel/Zionism and martyr themselves. The terrorists #1 goal is recruiting more foot soldiers, actually hurting us is a distant second.
Re:Papers please (Score:5, Informative)
Based on reading the article, it looks like most of the changes being made are not changes to the license itself, but to the process of obtaining them.
It appears to me that this is not a "federal ID", but consists of the following:
1) Requirements levied on the process of granting a person a drivers' license, in terms of verifying that that person is who they say they are.
2) Requirements levied on the anti-counterfeiting features of that license.
TFA states that a number of states already issue licenses that meet all of these requirements. For example, California residents will apparently not notice any difference except the point at which their picture is taken during the process of obtaining a license. From the looks of it, this will also not affect me, as my state (New York) already implements all of the process and anti-counterfeiting requirements levied here.
Re:Papers please (Score:4, Informative)
That is a federated system - this is a federal ID. Putting quotes around "federal ID" is being either dismissive or ignorant of the ACLU's concerns.
Re:Papers please (Score:4, Interesting)
One big change for me...from what I read, it will now have my Social Security number contained in it. My current license does not. I never showed my SS# when applying for it, and my number does not appear on the front of the license.
From the article, it implies that the SS will be at least encoded on the bar code.
I try not to give my SS out for anything but ss tax related things. Now...why are the Feds requiring it be part of my fscking drivers license?? What does a drivers license have to do with SS taxation?
Directions included (Score:5, Insightful)
Actually, the appendex in "1984" IS an instruction manual.
Read it again (Score:4, Informative)
Yes, it's written in a past-tense explanatory manner.
However, it is so thorough and detailed and systematic as to be, for most practical purposes, an instruction manual.
The difference between "how did you do X" vs. "how should you do X" is often negligible.
(And as for "-1 Wrong": sometimes the facts presented in a post are, objectively, wrong. A moderator should be able to facilitate downplaying factually erronious material, rather than having to shout among the masses. The whole POINT of a -1 moderation, whatever the reason, is to prevent crap from floating to the top.)
Re:Papers please (Score:5, Interesting)
I believe you are off-base comparing Real ID to 1984...
1984's rigid governmental controls were setup by the Inner Party to keep the rest of the Party in-line. The Proles were free to go about their lives more-or-less uninterrupted. Sure, they were spied upon and the government created nonsensical "shortages" for things like razors. The real spying, though, was upon members of the Party who were employed at the four Ministries (DoD (PEACE), Media (TRUTH), Prison (LOVE), and Wall Street (PLENTY)). These individuals were made to suffer until even the most basic mathematics was a lie. Meanwhile, the vast majority lived in ghettos outside of the insanity.
Thus, to the point that it will constrain everybody... Real ID is very dissimilar to anything in 1984. If you *really* want to cast stones, simply knowing the main slogan of 1984 provides better insight.
War is Peace,
Freedom is Slavery,
Ignorance is Strength
And if you'd like to read utopian science fiction *WITH* Real ID... follow the link in my sig. It isn't done, but it is polished enough that you'll get an enjoyable story.
Two out of three... (Score:4, Insightful)
Freedom is Slavery,
Ignorance is Strength
Well thanks to Mr. Bush the US has managed to achieve 2 out of 3 so I guess now he's working on the 'freedom' angle...
Re:Papers please (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Papers please (Score:4, Interesting)
Probably emigrated to NZ by that time, if I can squeeze out before the gate comes down.
My poor, poor children...
Re:Papers please (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Papers please (Score:5, Insightful)
Because this now will be tracked on a national database. Now...all your movements will be tracked starting with air travel. Where you went, how long, etc.
Next, who is to say what information is tracked? National healthcare? Maybe you are penalized in healthcare...since they now know you go to a bar 3 times a week. Cashing checks? Well, they can now associate what you buy each time...tsk tsk...you're still smoking, eh?
Do you now have to swipe it each time you use a credit card? Why not...not an infringement...just 'proves' you are the person on the credit card. Heck..why bother with a separate card at all? The credit card companies just start using your swipe to assoc. with an account with them. Then all the nice databases are hooked together nicely, and a great picture of your life can then be assembled.
But, what problems would that cause?? I mean, we've known the govt. doesn't make mistakes, especially ones that are near impossible to get cleared up in a reasonable amount of time, if at all. We all know there hasn't been anyone misuse their govt. powers to personally screw with someone life before...so, no worries there.
I guess think of it this way. Have there been many laws passed for one reason, that haven't been used for other things? RICO laws used to be just for gangsters...they're being used in creative ways these days for numerous other prosecutions. Patriot act laws were just for terrorists, right? Haven't we seen slashdot articles already alluding to them now being used for less dangerous domestic infractions?
Sure, I paint a slippery slope picture with what the RealID could lead to, with its national database...but, is it THAT far fetched? Who is to stop the next administration from adding a 'little more' functionality to the system?
Re:Papers please (Score:5, Insightful)
Look at it this way: if Canada was supplying the South with weaponry to stir up tensions again to force another civil war in the US while at the same time decrying the London bombings, wouldn't you be a little pissed at Canada?
Now imagine that, but stretched over decades from the United States, and hundreds of years from multiple European monarchies throughout the last thousand years.
Am I trying to justify it? No. However, a bit of understand would go a long way to improve out relationships abroad.
Sorry to rant.
Re:Papers please (Score:5, Insightful)
Even if you buy into that load of crap that you just spewed, how does imposing new restrictions on Americans and granting the Government sweeping new powers help towards that goal? I'd like to think that my drivers license bears no relationship to the military strength of the United States.
And I'll address your theory that we need to exterminate them with a quote from one of my favorite movies: "He seems to have a serious weed up his ass and a legitimate gripe, always a dangerous combination" -Captain Ramsey from Crimson Tide [imdb.com].
Point being, that the Muslim World has several legitimate gripes with the Western World. We can kill all the terrorists we want but until we address those gripes we'll just be creating more of them to fight us. Unless you plan on exterminating them all?
Re:Papers please (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes. If (and that's a highly unlikely if,) this is 'managed to be done', what's to stop those doing the ordering from targetting the next group for elimination? And who is that group going to be? Catholics? Anglicans? Any so-called Christian sect that doesn't speak in tongues, handle snakes, consider Evolution and science to be a tool of the devil and that all knowledge outside of one book needs to be suppressed for 'everyone's own good'?
First they came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew (Score:5, Insightful)
Part of the problem is that NI really is a nice tool in shutting out the undesirables (you can't get a job, you can't travel, you can't use banks, can't rent or even pay a lot of your bills unless the Govt says you can).
So yes, unfortunately National ID really does work against criminals. The question we should be asking is who decides who is a criminal (and can they be trusted).
Headline/summary is slightly misleading (Score:5, Informative)
Regardless, if we don't want this then the states need to be firm in their opposition to it.
If every state (or nearly every one) opposes it, the DHS can't really do anything, unless they want to be the agent of the economy's collapse because no businesspeople can travel. If enough states do not oppose it strongly, then the ones who do will be forced to capitulate eventually, similar to the 21 drinking age.
Re:Headline/summary is slightly misleading (Score:5, Interesting)
If someone tells me that they think the country is headed in the wrong direction and they're leaving, what reason do I have to listen to their thoughts on the matter? If they're so uncommitted to the country they're obviously not invested in the future of the country so their opinion means nothing to me.
If the Vietnam War had been protested by this generation, it seems that the country would have emptied out and the war would have continued. Enough with the mindless talk of leaving because you disagree with what's going on. Either leave or start to do something about it.
sigh (Score:5, Interesting)
Security is when everything is settled. When nothing can happen to you. Security is the denial of life.
Re:sigh (Score:5, Informative)
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
-- C.S. Lewis
Enormous Security Hole (Score:5, Insightful)
But here's what's particularly egregious about this plan: nobody over 50 will have to get a Real ID for nearly 10 years! If Real ID is so unbelievably necessary to our national security, how can we allow this segment to not have an ID? Should we stop scanning older individuals at the airport because they are "less likely to be a terrorist"?
The Bush administration has repeatedly refused to comment on waterboarding because they say they do not want the terrorists to know which interrogation techniques we use. Well, DHS is telegraphing to the world what sort of security techniques we use: Pssst! We only check people less than 50!
Stupid stupid stupid! Hypocritical, hypocritical, hypocritical!
"Who goes Nazi?" by Dorothy Thompson (Score:5, Interesting)
http://harpers.org/archive/1941/08/0020122 [harpers.org]
-theGreater.
under 50 (Score:5, Insightful)
Nice...
ZOMG NINEELEVEN!!!! (Score:5, Interesting)
The September 11 attacks were the main motivation for the changes.
First of all, I'd be willing to bet most people who lost someone dear to them in the tragedy of 9/11 is downright insulted by the constant abuse of the memory of their loved one as a tool to cudgel the American public into accepting laws which have no point other than to increase the power and pervasiveness of the Federal government. The 9/11 attackers all had legitimate IDs, so what possible purpose would this have served back then? We might have known the names of the guys that did it sooner after the fact? Yeah, I'm sure that would have come in real handy.
Frankly, I know there's nothing anyone can do to stop the REAL-ID ball from rolling, so I'd just be happier if they came out and admitted they just want the power trip.
So foreigners not welcome? (Score:4, Informative)
So how do you get on a plane or into a federal building if you don't have a REAL ID compliant license, like um
Done deal? (Score:4, Interesting)
An executive action (a set of regulations) that doesn't have its first deadline until near the end of the next presidential term, doesn't have its main effect until a year into the following term, and doesn't have its full effect until the end of that term is hardly a fait accompli.
There is plenty of time to push for executive modification of the regulations or legislative modification (or outright repeal) of the underlying law, and elections in between to focus that pressure around.
Oh , the irony. (Score:5, Insightful)
Me: Here you go
Airport Security : This is not a real ID, sir
Me: But I'm over 50.
Airport Security : No, you're not. You look like you are 15, not 50.
Me: But, my Id says I'm 50.
Airport Security : But its not a Real ID, could be a fake we only trust Real IDs.
Me: So I need to get a Real Id saying I'm 50 in order to prove to you that i don't need a Real Id?
Airport Security : Please Sir, step into this room and remove all clothing.
Misleading Title (Score:5, Insightful)
Nowhere does this plan call for citizens to carry ID, nor does it affect anything other than driver's licenses.
Re:Tag this article 'showmeyourpapers' (Score:5, Insightful)
And BEFORE THEN. Vote now! Otherwise we usually get stuck with a lesser of two evils thing in the general election.
Re:Tag this article 'showmeyourpapers' (Score:4, Insightful)
Even more reason to get out and vote in November."
Why? Which candidate has come out against the Real ID act??
I'm pretty sure Ron Paul would be against it, but, who of the candidates with a realistic chance of being elected has come out against the Real ID act?
Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?
Re:OH NOES!! (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:OH NOES!! (Score:5, Insightful)
Is it perfect? No. Is it in the interest of civil liberties? Nope. Is it a good step in a world full of people who would love to see you and I dead simply because of the country we were born in? You betcha.
Congratulations. The terrorists have won.
Re:OH NOES!! (Score:5, Insightful)
And just like bars today that swipe ID's, instead of making it harder to create a fake ID, It makes the people checking the ID's less observant and allows them to easily just rely on the technology. IOW's... It's another great way for the public as a whole to pop their head in the sand and say we are secure when in reality we've not really improved anything and possibly even removed some of the accountability people once had in preventing the fraud.
In a related bit..... Think about this.. What do you need to get a state issued ID? Social Security Card? Birth Certificate? Well.... What do you need to get a replacement Social Security Card? Not much other than filling out some paperwork and your Birth Certificate. Soooooo, what do you need to get you birth certificate? In many areas, you just need to go down to the local dept of health and request a copy of it. Not very hard to do at all. Even easier, you could use a service like VitalChek and not even have to show up in person to request the Birth Certificate......And that's assuming that you are using a real Birth Certificate. There isn't really any system set up where the DMV can verify that the certificate your giving them is officially issued. The only thing on them that "proves" they are real is a simple notery-style Official Seal crimped in the paper.
An ID system is only as strong as it's weakest link. And right now we have a MASSIVELY weak link in the process for birth Certificates which this is not changing. All this does (not including potential privacy concerns) is give everybody a warm fuzzy cause they think they are doing something to better the situation.
Re:OH NOES!! (Score:4, Insightful)
You asked what is the benefit. For 9/11 there would have been none that I know of.
But there is a real benefit to better ids that can be checked and trusted.
As I pointed out it could help with check fraud and any other crime that someone would commit using a fake idea. I didn't say it had any benefits at stopping a 9/11 copy cat attack.
You are making a common mistake. You are fighting the last war.
The benefits may have little to do with preventing terrorism but then it may. But a good secure id does have some benefits.
BTW a 9/11 copy cat attack is now pretty much impossible.
1. It is harder to sneak any weapon on a plane.
2. The cockpits are more secure.
3. Passengers will not just sit there any more.
So if you are worried about stopping 9/11 again don't. That is pretty well taken care of.
Re:OH NOES!! (Score:4, Insightful)
Worse, ALL that data will be easier accessed. How many reports did I read just last year where government agencies "lost" millions of records on laptops. Just imagine ONE such failure with the REAL ID data and all the hope that it might prevent fraud goes right out the window.
I agree that the 9/11 scenario is taken care of -- which is why I'm tired of our HS folks using it to scare folks into this REAL ID thing.
My fear these days is corrupt and police-state like government agencies that will arrest you on rumor, hold you indefinitely without evidence or chance of trial and if you're lucky enough -- you won't get tortured while your held indefinitely. Basically, the protections of the Constitution are all but gone. And that means we'll head even faster to a fascist state.
Re:OH NOES!! (Score:5, Insightful)
When people are denied freedom of movement by the gov't when they don't have one is when it becomes a problem.
Also, exactly which problem is this designed to solve? And how is this the least intrusive method of the gov't achieving its goals.
In 2014, about 40% of the US population will be over 50. Even better, Osama Bin Laden himself would be excluded from this requirement.
Re:OH NOES!! (Score:4, Insightful)
The only bright side to this whole thing is that 6 years is plenty long enough for this to get repealed. We're due for a new president here fairly soon and with any luck it will be somebody who won't go along with this crap.
Re:OH NOES!! (Score:5, Funny)
Seriously. (Score:4, Insightful)
The theory of valid ID may perhaps be arguable but the practice of what is done with it is very very different.
Post 9-11 there was a push both for RealID and the idea that "for our protection" police should be able to demand id at all times. The place where this and other activities has been exploited the most is in watching anti-war groups. Google it and you'll find a host of nonviolent noncriminal groups that have been catalogued, followed, identified, simply because they oppose the war. I myself have watched the (not so subtle) undercover cops infiltrate gatherings I was at and have probably been videotaped a few times. Add to this the "right" for them to demand my papers at all times and all of a sudden we have national tracking that does nothing to actually protect us.
This may sound like ranting to you but I assure you that it is not. The simple fact of the matter is that if the information is being gathered then it can be used against us by anyone in power or anyone with access. Leaving aside the fact that the biometric requirements of "RealID" are an invitation to identity theft (all info in one handy place).
Let us not also forget that on 9-11 the hijackers had valid ID. Not forged, not illicit, they had the real thing and they would have easily qualified for RealID. When boarding the planes they took their ID, the made no attempt to hide themselves under false names. They were not on the "no fly" lists. They simply walked through security with real drivers licenses and killed thousands. No "beefed up" card will change that.
Give it time (Score:5, Insightful)
Then you need that ID to fly.
Then you need that ID to leave the country.
Then you need that ID to get into the country.
Then you need that ID to vote.
Then you need that ID to cross state borders.
Then you need that ID to buy gas.
Then you need that ID to be a legal citizen.
Slowly but surely, it will become a 'Show me your papers' issue. Imagine just walking down the street, a cop sees you, maybe he's having a bad day, maybe you roughly match the description of a wanted criminal, he approaches you and asks for you national ID. You don't have it though, because you were just going for a walk. Next thing you know, you're heading down town, handcuffed in the back of a crown vic. Sure, they'll let you out, once you can get a friend to bring your ID in, or go through the red tape to get the State to produce the paper work, but by that point you've been printed, your arrest has been recorded, and you're out a few hours to a few days getting everything straightened out.
Fear mongers will use it as a tool against illegal immigrants first. By requiring the national ID to be able to do the most mundane of things, they'll push aliens further out of the legal realm. Then all it would take is another attack to spur off a series of knee jerk reactions that lead to certain racial/ethnic groups having their cards pulled, leaving them as 2nd class citizens, virtually outlaws because they have no ID to prove their legitimacy in the US.
Yes, it's a paranoid delusion. But so was the idea that the US would use black site prisons, suspend habeas corpus, and invade a sovereign nation on manufactured intelligence. Given enough time, the system will be abused, and civil liberties will be eroded.
And the whole time, this card will do nothing to make our country more secure.
-Rick