Diffing Guantanamo Bay SOP Manuals

James Hardine writes "The Washington Post is reporting that Wikileaks has released another manual for Camp Delta, Guantanamo Bay together with the US military's rendition operations manual. This release follows from the Wikileaks release of the 2003 SOP Manual as discussed on Slashdot last month. Wikileaks compares the two manuals (2003, 2004) and reveals damning changes in official US detainee policy in exquisite detail. Who knew that diff could be such a powerful political weapon?"

Hmph

Section D.

1. Policies in regard to treatment of prisoner's shoes.

A. Shit in them.

Diff is powerful

In my last job, I'd pull word docs through antiword and then diff them; usually contracts for salespeople who got these fuckers from other parties and wanted to make sure none of the language had changed. Very quick and powerful indeed.

Re:

I'm not sure if someone is already doing this with laws, but I think it would be a good thing to hilight the changes.

Re:

I've seen some laws notated with strikethrough on amended or stricken provisions, but not in the bills that modify them. It'd be nice if there were a uniform way of doing this...part of the reason the newer, sneakier laws (Patriot Act?) are so damn huge i

Re:Diff is powerful

That's exactly right. It even happens with our constitution. Amendment 18 enacted prohibition, and over a decade later the 21st amendment nullified the 18th; but they're both still there.

Damning changes?

Except for the fact that soldiers no longer have to carry a human rights card, what are these damning changes? I see little to protest in the diff.

Re:

One thing that caught my eye is that "MP" was replaced with "Guards".

Could be nothing; they could be using other military personnel who aren't MPs as a form of staff augmentation ( i.e. Navy MAAs, USAF security police, et. al. ). Could be contractors, FBI

Re:Damning changes?

If they're guarded by Military Police, then the likely logical argument that follows is that they're prisoners of war. If they're guarded by guards, then who can really say what they are?

We can't tolerate any suggestion that they might be prisoners. They're detainees. We barely acknowledge that they're human beings.

That's SOP in the Bush administrations' "War on Terra".

Um, NO.

Military Police work on every single US military installation in the country, probably the world. They control traffic at gates, catch speeders, and write parking tickets just like their civilian counterparts. They also work in brigs watching over our own troops. Your assertion that Military Police only guard POWs is completely, and utterly wrong. 'Guard' in this case may mean US military personnel OTHER than strictly MPs.

You all want to know one of the main reasons things like SOPs for military installations are marked FOUO? Or why anything is marked FOUO for that matter? It's because there are too many idiots who misinterpret things because they don't understand BASIC military terminology for one, or they can't even begin to understand what our military actually does.

One after another, "Maybe it's Blackwater", "Maybe the prisoners are guards", "Maybe it's aliens". It makes present and former military personnel sick. That is WHY many things are FOUO.
This SOP was written for a very specific audience, BTW. The whole "Camp Rules" section at the top of the diff smells very fake, and at the very least is out of place/context. It would be a separate document, and obviously in different languages. If it were to be included with the SOP, I doubt the translations would be absent. Who the hell keeps getting these as PDFs anyway? I didn't think they were ever distributed electronically outside of formal messaging systems. They're usually just kept in a binder somewhere.

Semper Fi

Re:Damning changes?

I think you meant "no longer have to carry a little laminate card" instead of "no longer have to abide..."

No offense, but your statement seems to be reading a bit more into the document than it actually says.

Anyway, if you believe Gitmo is evil, the document will support your belief. If you do not believe Gitmo is evil, nothing in the document will change your mind. Frankly, I think the entire article is a troll.

Re:Damning changes?

Gitmo is the place where the worst of the worst are kept.

And you know this how? Neither you nor the government, has presented one iota of credible evidence that anyone at Guantanamo has committed any crimes whatsoever. The Bush administration has fought tooth and nail to prevent any such evidence coming to light.
You do know that lots of people have been released from Guantanamo, don't you? And that many of those people have been formally exonerated by their home nations of committing any crime?

One of the people held at Guantanamo has been there since he was 14. Was he one of the "worst of the worst"? The government won't say what he did but, perversely, has described him as a "good kid" that thrived under the tender mercies of the Guantanamo guards. Staff at Guantanamo have reported that, for the most part, they don't know why most people are being held there.

These are the guys that are found actively fighting American forces or the local population or those that are known to have information that they are not willing to divulge.

First, I hate to break it to you, but "actively fighting American forces" isn't a war crime. Whether you're wearing a uniform or not. Imprisoning prisoners of war outside the theater is a clear violation of the Geneva Conventions. So is interrogating them. So even assuming you're correct, Guantanamo Bay is illegal.

And you're not. Most of the prisoners at Guantanamo Bay were sold to the US Army by Afghani warlords/drug lords. And they're about as reputable as they sound.

Besides, that would be an incredibly waste of resources to ship every one of these people to Gitmo and interrogate them for hours only to have them confess to something that never happened.

More like, "interrogate them for years". But you're right, it is a huge waste of resources.

Re:Damning changes?

First, I hate to break it to you, but "actively fighting American forces" isn't a war crime. Whether you're wearing a uniform or not. Imprisoning prisoners of war outside the theater is a clear violation of the Geneva Conventions. So is interrogating them. So even assuming you're correct, Guantanamo Bay is illegal.

Which version of the Geneva Convention have you read? I'm going to assume that you didn't really mean "war crime" but meant "crime at time of war" because clearly a "war crime" is a well-defined term that doesn't really fit the context of your argument.

Whether you're wearing a uniform or not.

Now, the GC never really define who are lawful combatants and who are unlawful combatants; they do however define who deserves treatment as a POW and who do not (in the 3rd Convention [wikipedia.org]). The leap from protection classes to classes of combatant, while not explicit is pretty broadly accepted as detailed in the wikipedia entry for Unlawful Combatant [wikipedia.org]:

"Every person in enemy hands must be either a prisoner of war and, as such, be covered by the Third Convention; or a civilian covered by the Fourth Convention. Furthermore, "There is no intermediate status; nobody in enemy hands can be outside the law," because in the opinion of the ICRC "If civilians directly engage in hostilities, they are considered 'unlawful' or 'unprivileged' combatants or belligerents (the treaties of humanitarian law do not expressly contain these terms). They may be prosecuted under the domestic law of the detaining state for such action".

Article 4.1.2 of GCIII clearly states that the following is required to get POW status:

4.1.2 Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, provided that they fulfill all of the following conditions:

• that of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;
• that of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance (there are limited exceptions to this among countries who observe the 1977 Protocol I);
• that of carrying arms openly;
• that of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.

Moreover, it explicitly excludes POW status from people who resist once the territory is occupied.

Article 4.1.6 extends POW status to:

Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war.

Oh, and if the GC doesn't satisfy you - how about the Laws of War [wikipedia.org] according to which "It is a violation of the laws of war to engage in combat without meeting certain requirements, among them the wearing of a distinctive uniform or other distinctive signs visible at a distance, and the carrying of weapons openly."

You go on to claim: "Imprisoning prisoners of war outside the theater is a clear violation of the Geneva Conventions."

Please cite your source on this. I have never heard anyone make this claim. By the way, the US held German prisoners during WW2 at POW camps in CONUS - was this a "war crime?"

And then again: "So is interrogating them."

Interrogating them (prisoners lawful or not) is not a crime. Police "interrogate" suspects every day in the country and it is perfectly legal. The military interrogates suspected militants overseas every day - again, perfectly legal. Unless by "interrogate" you meant "torture" and by "torture" you meant something harsher than the hazing I suff

Re:Damning changes?

Gitmo is the place where the worst of the worst are kept.

People like the Australian David Hicks, who was found guilty of supporting terrorism through the nefarious act of guarding a tank. What a bastard!

If these are the worst of the worst, then Al Qaeda isn't so bad after all.

And what about those Brits who were let off with a smack on the hand? Or Mamdouh Habib (another Aussie) who was 'rendered' in Egypt for the US and then released without charge?

Gitmo is absolutely not about keeping the worst of the worst. It's about keeping suspects outside US legal jurisdiction. The question "Why?" is critical here. What reasons could there be for denying legal access to suspects?

Just a thought about Gitmo

Here we say that these people are the worst of the worst then try to send them to their home countries who either don't take them back (they've already been labeled a pariah but the U.S.) or they grant them a full pardon if tired in civilian courts.

I don't agree with this sort of treatment, but what should we do with them now? It's a bit late to say don't let it happen in the first place. We have a large group of people pissed off at the United States and with good reason. If we let them go and their home countries won't take them back, where should we put them?

Re:Just a thought about Gitmo

What do you do when you've managed to grab a a wolf by there ears?

One approach would be to claim that it's not really a wolf, it's a bloodthirsty monster, and we don't really have it by the ears, and it's being well treated anyway. Plus no one else will grab it by the ears for us.

Or you can just take your licks for doing something that's so obviously stupid.

My claim is that you need to introduce them to the US judicial system and let it sort things out. Some bad guys might be able to slip through the cracks, but in my opinion we deserve any blowback that we get.

Re:Just a thought about Gitmo

If soldiers, they would be POWs and under Geneva conventions.

If not, they are allegedly civilian criminals and should be prosecuted in the civilian judicial system.

Problem with Gitmo is the US has decided these people are neither soldiers nor civilians but fall in some black hole category in between, where they have no access to civilian justice and no POW rights either.

Re:Just a thought about Gitmo

From Enemy Combatants [cfr.org] on a site called the "Council on Foreign Relations" that has the tagline "A Nonpartisan Resource for Information and Analysis" (and not knowing anything about the CFR, that sounds a bit like a "fair and balanced" view of things, if you get my meaning).

I quote:

An "enemy combatant" is an individual who, under the laws and customs of war, may be detained for the duration of an armed conflict. In the current conflict with al Qaida and the Taliban, the term includes a member, agent, or associate of al Qaida or the Taliban. In applying this definition, the United States government has acted consistently with the observation of the Supreme Court of the United States in Ex parte Quirin, 317 U.S. 1, 37-38 (1942): "Citizens who associate themselves with the military arm of the enemy government, and with its aid, guidance and direction enter this country bent on hostile acts are enemy belligerents within the meaning of the Hague Convention and the law of war."

"Enemy combatant" is a general category that subsumes two sub-categories: lawful and unlawful combatants. See Quirin, 317 U.S. at 37-38. Lawful combatants receive prisoner of war (POW) status and the protections of the Third Geneva Convention. Unlawful combatants do not receive POW status and do not receive the full protections of the Third Geneva Convention. (The treatment accorded to unlawful combatants is discussed below).

The President has determined that al Qaida members are unlawful combatants because (among other reasons) they are members of a non-state actor terrorist group that does not receive the protections of the Third Geneva Convention. He additionally determined that the Taliban detainees are unlawful combatants because they do not satisfy the criteria for POW status set out in Article 4 of the Third Geneva Convention. Although the President's determination on this issue is final, courts have concurred with his determination.

We're all boiling frogs

Reading this article made me realize just how we've all fallen victim to the "boiling frog syndrome [wikipedia.org]". Ten years ago it would have seemed nuts to be reading, and hearing about, the operation of concentration camps in the West, other than when reading about WWII. Now we read stuff about concentration camps, internment, loss of habeas corpus, the US kidnapping people from around the world, etc, and it's all just regular, "same old" news. A few people still feel a little shock, and even fewer actually bother to do anything about it, while the rest of us twiddle our thumbs and either hope it'll all go away or think that "well, we've done nothing wrong, so we'll be fine."

I wonder what sort of stories we'll be reading in another ten years that would shock us now but will seem like regular occurrences in 2017? Thoughtcrime executions, archived recording of all telephone calls (the European Union is already working on this!), incarcerating people because they have the "genes" of a potential psychopath (again, the EU is looking into this)? It's gunna happen and we'll just keep boiling like the frogs we are.

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Internment: Detention without trial

Re:We're all boiling frogs

Please get your facts straight.

1. About half of the "lovely freedom fighters" are sent home already, and none of them ever got charged with anything. Obviously at least half of them were never "lovely freedom fighters". Whoever they were, they surely aren't THEY beheading innocent people and videotaping them.
Please explain how detaining people not connected to those crimes helps fighting the criminals.

2. A concentration camp is something else than an extermination camp. Concentration camps were set up and are set up to round up people deemed somehow dangerous without ever telling anyone why exept for some general accusations. Germans were using the term "concentration camp" because it didn't have the horrible sound until it was discovered that the German concentration camps in fact were extermination camps.

3. Please explain why you can mistreat people just because they aren't U.S. citizens.

Re:We're all boiling frogs

1. Please explain how detaining people not connected to those crimes helps fighting the criminals.

We British tried this one with awesome effect during internment in Northern Ireland. It works like this:

• Arrest and abuse everyone, regardless of evidence.
• Turn the hearts and minds of the people utterly against you.
• Have vastly more people become terrorists in outrage at the complete disregard for due process that you're demonstrating.
• Now you have far more terrorists. Which makes catching them even easier.

See how much easier it is to fight criminals when you ensure there are far more of them to catch? It's like shooting fish in a barrel. One is hard to hit. Pack the barrel to the brim and you're bound to hit something.

It was only under our foolish return to the rule of law and acting with honour again by the late 90's that we had largely stopped outraging the populace. We had far fewer people responding to our behavior and becoming terrorists and found that the population no longer supported the terrorists' actions and no longer offered them safe houses. Do you know how hard it is to catch a terrorist when there are hardly any left?! It was a complete disaster!

3. Please explain why you can mistreat people just because they aren't U.S. citizens.

I believe the administration's preferred term is "undermenschen"

Re:We're all boiling frogs

People are being sent there without just trial! You say "bill of rights + constitution" do not apply, how about the laws of the country where they were taken from? How about human rights?
The US is in the business of kidnapping people and imprisoning them without any form of trial or appeal. How is that fair? How is that just? How is that according to your rules of the land?
To me that's bullying behaviour: "We don't like him, let's put him behind bars in a place where he can't hurt us."
How many innocent people are in Guantanamo Bay?
And why did the US built that prison in a foreign country?

I can't believe you can still sleep at night.

Re:We're all boiling frogs

Who told you that the Bill of Rights doesn't apply to non-Citizens? Let's look at the 5th Amendment:

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

Its pretty damned clear to me that "No person shall be ... deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law..." Not "no citizen," but "no person". Due process applies to anyone in the jurisdiction of the US, regardless of citizenship or residence (or in fact their physical location, but that's another argument). Note that "in actual service" phrase if you think you can use the military exemption clause as cover here - that only refers to the use of military courts to try US servicemen in time of war or public danger.

Before spouting off, RTF Constitution!

Re:We're all boiling frogs

"Let me know when prisoners are beaten, maimed, gases, burned, frozen, shot, or made to watch their children murdered."

Apparently you have no problem holding innocent people in prison, without trial, without access to lawyers, without family contact, for 6 YEARS of their lives.

Man, what an opportunist scumbag. Someone makes a comparison to concentration camps, and you jump up on your podium and start proudly trumpeting how humane your prison camps are!

"Let's contrast this with these lovely freedom fighters, who for a little while were video taping a beheading-of the-week to be played all over the world."

Sure, let's wipe our misdeeds under the table by pointing at worse criminals next door! The fact remains, you and the operators of these prison camps are criminals and abettors of criminals, and the fact that worse criminals exist in the world does nothing to temper that fact.

"They murder innocent people by the thousands in the name of Allah."

Who does? The people you're falsely imprisoning? Nope. If they had, you might give them trials. Why don't you give them trials? There is one obvious reason. You think they'll be set free. Now why might that be...?

"SOP for detainees is to whine about mistreatment, torture, Koran mishandling, etc."

Yeah, those whining ingrates! They should be licking our boots for imprisoning them in such a fine jail!

"These are not US citizens; therefore, the Bill of Rights + Constitution do not apply."

The fact is that the Bill of Rights is clearly not limited to US citizens, and our country is based on liberty and justice for all. That you would rant to the contrary only shows you both a bald-faced liar and a traitor of those values.

You don't believe in liberty nor justice. You just take them for yourself. This is hypocrisy and worse.

"These are not uniformed soldiers of a sovereign state; therefore, Geneva Conventions do not apply."

I see. They're not soldiers, but they're not not soldiers. Hmm, what are they... I know! They must be alien invaders from Mars! Oh, sorry, wrong line, they're "illegal combatants." What's an "illegal combatant"? Well, nobody is quite sure, but we know they don't deserve trials, yessirree!

"But we treat them far better than any other military would treat them."

Oh, good for you. "Look, Frankie next door catches frogs and burns them alive! Why are you mad at me when I only poke out the eyes of the ones I catch?!"

Scumbag.

Re:We're all boiling frogs

These are not US citizens; therefore, the Bill of Rights + Constitution do not apply. These are not uniformed soldiers of a sovereign state; therefore, Geneva Conventions do not apply. But we treat them far better than any other military would treat them.

Run that by me again... where in the Constitution, or any of it's amendments does it claim that the rights are only for citizens. in the few cases where it does care (i.e. Voting) it uses the term citizen, as opposed to "the people"

I think you'd be hard pressed to argue that the bill of rights only applies to citizens, and not everybody under US law.

Re:We're all boiling frogs

"These are not US citizens; therefore, the Bill of Rights + Constitution do not apply. These are not uniformed soldiers of a sovereign state; therefore, Geneva Conventions do not apply"

So, what you are saying is that because Gitmo is not subject to the rule of the US constitution, those civilians who were captured have no rights under it and that because they are civilians, they have no right under the GC. So, in fact, they have no rights whatsoever. And that everything is OK because they are allowed to practice their religion and brush their teeth.

And you somehow think it's right.

Keep in mind a lot of them were captured during the invasion of a country that had absolutely nothing to do with any terrorist attacks on the US and whose largest offenses were being ruled a obnoxious dictator that pissed off the POTUS and who have every right not to thank the US because they were bombed back to stone age and then invaded by so called liberators. If at some point in the future some foreign power decides to invade the US and a civilian resistance movement starts, would you be OK with your fellow countrymen being held in a legal limbo? Would it be fine to torture them as long as they can practice their religion and brush their teeth?

If Gitmo is not part of the US, then what is it? Part of Cuba that has been invaded for so long that Cubans don't care anymore? Shouldn't it be under _some_ law?

And, BTW, the US Constitution applies to everyone within any part of the US territory (including embassies, planes and boats in international waters) and not only to US citizens. It's sad (not to say it betrays the legacy of your Founding Fathers) to think one can bend _this_ law to serve any purpose.

I hope this shameful episode will end someday.

Re:We're all boiling frogs

There's good reason to doubt. Maybe it's all a conspiracy to make us completely unsure of what's real.

Here are some reasons to doubt news stories:
http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/37/9592 [truthout.org]
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A36694-2005Mar15.html [washingtonpost.com]
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21490838/ [msn.com]
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/article621189.ece [independent.co.uk]

Major news outlets carried falsified stories in order to gauge citizen reaction. Of course, the catch-22 is that if you feel that the above stories might be fake, we're in the same boat--not knowing what to believe.

Re:We're all boiling frogs

But many of them weren't taken in combat.

Google around a bit - some of the guys who have already been released once they finally started having military hearings about their cases have nothing to do with terrorism.

For a while there we were offering a cash reward for anyone who would sell us a terrorist. So countries used that to point out anyone they didn't like and have them sold to us and sent to Gitmo. Two guys were just cartoonists who made fun of their local government! But it took over a year at least for them to be released.

Even ignoring full civilian trial rights, we at least need some sort of legitimate defense so that we have to prove that people were actually enemy combatants before we lock them up. I'm sure even with a court-appointed lawyer we wouldn't have any trouble locking a guy away for the moment because there was eye witness testimony he was shooting at American soldiers.

If you want to diff it..

How's about comparing it to al Qaeda's manual?

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/jihadmanual.html [thesmokinggun.com]

Diff knows many things.

diff oldboss.txt newboss.txt | wc -l
0

Re:Diff knows many things.

we wont get fooled again!

Changed MPs to Guards

This seems to be the scariest change for me. MPs can handle that type of guard duty. Changing all references of MP to Guard means the military can start using either regular enlisted who are not properly trained to run a prison, or hire private contractors to run the prison. We already have private prisons stateside.

come on.

If they are guilty then charge them and let them have their day in court.

If there is no evidence then release them.

But holding them indefinitely on hearsay and suspicion in a legal limbo is madness. The problem will not get easier to deal with the longer you leave it, at some point they will have to be dealt with - so better to get it out of the way now. Confront the problem whatever the cost, return or charge them, and get that embarrassment and shut down.

Let's review

..the "damning" changes.

Policy will now be reviewed every 30 days instead of 120 days.

New rules:
1. Comply with all rules and regulations. You are subject to disciplinary action if you disobey any rule or commit any act, disorder, or neglect that is prejudicial to good order and discipline.
2. You must immediately obey all orders of U.S. personnel. Deliberate disobedience, resistance, or conduct of a mutinous or riotous nature will be dealt with by force. Be respectful of others. Derogatory comments toward camp personnel will not be tolerated.
3. You may not have any articles that can be used as a weapon in your possession at any time. If a weapon is found in your possession, you will be severely punished. Gambling is strictly forbidden.
4. Being truthful and compliance will be rewarded. Failure to comply will result in loss of privileges.
5. All trash will be returned immediately to U.S. personnel when you are finished eating. All eating utensils must be returned after meals.
6. No detainee may conduct or participate in any form of military drill, organized physical fitness, hand-to-hand combat, or martial arts style training.
7. The camp commander will ensure adequate protection for all personnel. Any detainee who mistreats another detainee will be punished. Any detainee that fears his life is in danger, or fears physical injury at the hands of another person can report this to U.S. personnel at any time.
8. Medical emergencies should be brought to the guards' attention immediately. Your decision whether or not to be truthful and comply will directly affect your quality of life while in this camp.

(nothing in there seems particularly onerous. Aside from #2, it wouldn't make a bad set of rules for any school in the US.)

(stopped reading because I have better things to do)
I'd rate this -1, Overrated. It's a bunch of clarifications, seems to me as much for the detainees' benefit as anyone.

Re:Let's review

Live without any rights, without any privacy, without anything you can call your own, no hope for release, no way to fight back, with no due process, totally powerless, and absolutely at the mercy of your guards, and you will go mad eventually. There is plenty of reports already that the people held at Gitmo are either gradually losing their sanity, or have already lost it, and who should be surprised? The confinement procedures at Gitmo follow well known brain-washing techniques that we were told the Soviets were using during the Cold War, to demonize them. That the US is now the mirror image of their own anti-Soviet propaganda would be hillarious, if it were not so sad and so outrageous.

Re:orwell

From this day forward diff will be known as "rm." Please update all records accordingly. Sincerely, the ministry of homeland security.

Re:congrats to wikileak

for weaking america and making all of more vulnerable to terrorist attacks, hope you are proud of the work you are doing.

I wonder if they're as proud as Bush was for ignoring memos titled Bin Laden determined to attack in US [thesmokinggun.com], not taking heed (and improving airline security), and successfully making us vulnerable to an attack.
Cause that's totally comparable to someone releasing the SOP manuals of a prison.
You see, friend, it's people like you who "weaken" and make America "more vulnerable to terrorist attacks". Instead of targeting your anger toward an administration that has let its incompetence actually harm American interests, you'd rather cry about some hypothetical weakening.

Re:congrats to wikileak

I see this type of reasoning all the time. Let's just set the record straight:

From the 9/11 hearings when Senator Gorton interviewed Richard Clarke, the Clinton Administration's Terror Czar and head of counter-terrorism.

FORMER SEN. SLADE GORTON: Assuming that the recommendations that you made in... on January 25 of 2001 based on blue sky, including aid to the northern alliance which had been an agenda item at this point for two-and-a-half years without any action, assuming that there had been more predator reconnaissance missions, assuming that that had all been adopted, say, on January 26, the year 2001, is there the remotest chance that it would have prevented 9/11?

RICHARD CLARKE: No.

Unequivocal. The person in charge of counter-terrorism up to the very date that the Bush administration started CONFIRMED that 9/11 was already irreversibly in motion. The opportunity to stop it had already passed.

Re:congrats to wikileak

You have to take all of those hearings with a grain of salt. Even the chairman of the committee has gone on the record to say that they didn't get the whole story and that they had problems getting statements from key witnesses. The 9/11 Commission was put together to lend legitimacy to a pre-formed conclusion. Any evidence that failed to fit into the predetermined paragidm was supressed and left out of the "official" record.

Re:congrats to wikileak

I've had this conversation with so many people at this point that I can't even begin to rehash it again here for the umpteenth time. Here is a link to a bunch of people with a lot more prestige than I have who are questioning the validity of the 911 Commission Report. http://www.wanttoknow.info/officialsquestion911commissionreport [wanttoknow.info]

The erosion of our freedom concerns me greatly, and I think that is where we really need to put our focus, not so much what we're doing abroad, but what we're doing here.

If the erosion of your freedoms really concerns you then you should be concerned about the fact that the Commission charged with investigating what happened wasn't given the full freedom to investigate it. You should care that more money was spent investigating why the Challenger blew up, or investigating Clinton's blow job than was spent investigating 9/11/01. Our government has been into messy, black ops stuff for a LONG time... from over throwing popularly elected governments and causing coups (Iran), to supporting oppressive military dictators (Pakistan, Iraq under Saddam), to all sorts of nastiness with drugs (Iran Contra, CIA ops). I'm not saying that the government planned and executed 9/11... that's crazy talk. The government has been covering up any sort of investigation into what really took place though. There has been so much crazy shit that our government has been involved with over the last fifty years that is finally coming home to roost that they can't let it get out. bin Laden was a CIA asset. Saddam was an allie of the United States. The fact of the matter is that our government has made some REALLY BAD foreign policy decisions that have alienated and pissed off a huge portion of the population of the world. At this point in the game the government needs to keep up the facade that they can "protect" us from evil terrorists while concealing the fact that the "evil terrorists" want to attack us because of what the government has been doing since before I was even born.

It baffles me that you can say that you care about the erosion of our freedom and liberty here at home, yet at the same time call me into question for questioning what has taken place since 9/11. Everything that is going on with the erosion of our freedoms is BASED ON 9/11. 9/11 is used as the justification for all of the nonsense that is taking place with the PATRIOT Act, suspension of habeus corpus, wiretaps and everything else.

Re:congrats to wikileak

Which "limp-wristed" responses are you referring to? The ones where the Republican congress and conservative media shouted "Wag the Dog!" over and over to force him to stop attempting to kill Bin Laden?

After all, shooting rockets into Afghanistan to try blow up known terrorist training camps had nothing to do with Clinton trying to protect America - it was all about distracting people from his blow job.

Re:congrats to wikileak

Which "limp-wristed" responses are you referring to? The ones where the Republican congress and conservative media shouted "Wag the Dog!" over and over to force him to stop attempting to kill Bin Laden?

After all, shooting rockets into Afghanistan to try blow up known terrorist training camps had nothing to do with Clinton trying to protect America - it was all about distracting people from his blow job.

As a non American, I think it's appalling that both the Republicans and the Democrats make these sorts of comments about foreign policy when they are out of office.

In the UK we have a tradition of bipartisanship over this sort of stuff - it's something which the opposition is briefed over and is normally exempt from political sniping, unlike domestic issues which are fair game. Like most UK stuff it's not official - the two halves of the establishment essentially have an agreement not to argue in public about things that seriously threaten them. It works pretty well in practice though - in WWII when the UK was in dire danger of invasion they agreed form a coalition government, suspend elections, lock up Nazi sympathizers, censor the press and have a planned economy. Once the war was won all this was reversed and elections were held, which Churchill lost. Arguably in the London bombings there was at least some hint of this - the shoot to kill policy by the police was bipartisan and when it killed the wrong person and was thus clearly untenable the decision to stop it was also bipartisan. But counter terrorism policy is still something which is handled by a sort of hypervisor composed of Labour and the Conservative front benches and the spooks rather than b