Lawmakers Delay Telco Immunity Vote

eweekhickins writes "The US Senate Judiciary Committee delayed a scheduled vote on whether telecommunications carriers should be granted immunity for cooperating with the White House's domestic spying program of telephone wiretapping and e-mail surveillance. The panel hopes to vote on the provision as soon as next week. Senator Pat Leahy said that immunity would make it impossible for Americans to seek redress for 'illegal' violations of their privacy." The article points out the confused state of the immunity measure: the House is considering a version of FISA renewal that has no immunity; in the Senate, two committees are working on different versions, one with immunity, one without.

Other side

I would like to take side of telcoms. They worked with government agencies. Government agencies said "Help us spying or you will be against law". And now government says "You were helping us spying, you were against law". So is it fault of telcoms or gover

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Yes its AT&T's fault just as much as the government's fault. AT&T has plenty of lawyers for these kinds of situations. One of the people involved could have gone to their legal department and found out if it was illegal to do this. The US Govern

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Remember that if they helped wiretap legally they are already immune. If there was a court order and the government required a wiretap the telco's cannot be sued. The problem here is that the government was breaking the law (allegedly lol) and the telco'

Re:Other side

People were hanged at Nuremburg despite saying "I was only following orders".

There comes a time where you have to do what's RIGHT, even if you have to go to jail for it.

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And since corporations don't go to jail,
there was really no excuse to not do what's right.

But, the money blinds them.

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Wait.. are you saying that the Nuremberg convicts were right to follow the orders they did?

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It looks more like he was saying that the telcos deserve to be hung (figuratively) for 'just following orders'. Though I can only see this really hurting the employees and customers, rather than the people who actually made the decision to allow this mass

Wrong

Why do people fall for this garbage? If telecoms are granted carte blanche immunity now it prevents a more reasonable immunity deal later which would have a chance of exposing what appears to be significant wrongdoing on the part of the government. The motivation behind telecom immunity isn't really to let telecoms off the hook as much as it is to prevent stuff from coming out in court about what the government did. There are many things we'll never find out about if Dianne Feinstein helps usher this crap through. (I phoned her office at 202-224-3841 to complain. That's 202-224-3841. If enough Californians call 202-224-3841 maybe she'll change her mind since her constituents are overwhelmingly against this. But probably not- Feinstein is really horrible and is probably not running for reelection when her term expires years from now.)

Telecoms don't go to prison like you or I would. At most they incur legal expenses- probably less than a day's operating expenses- it's the cost of doing business. And they could have easily told the government to screw themselves. They were cooperating with these patently illegal requests even before 9/11.

Telecom immunity is obstruction of justice enshrined into law.

Re:Other side

Bullshit. The law is the law, and that law makes it pretty damn clear that spying on U.S. citizens, without first demonstrating to a judicial authority probable cause for the issue a warrant authorizing such spying, is wrong. Period. This being the case, a business, and/or those responsible for operating that business, is/are responsible for obeying this well-established law, REGARDLESS of who asked them to break it. Their answer SHOULD have been, "No warrant - no wiretap. Sorry."

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There is a line of defense on the president's part that goes to the point that while he is commander in chief, collecting battlefield inteligence is entirely within the role of commander in chief and congress cannot pass any laws restricting the roles that

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The telecoms are in an awkward position (of their own making) for sure. The same people who said "help us or the terrorists win" aren't the ones who would see them prosecuted. The problem with your argument is that the government we have now is factional

Not "the government" - the Executive

So is it fault of telcoms or government?

The Executive branch told the telecoms. The telecoms, who have been working with government agencies for years, very clearly knew this was illegal. They went along with it anyway. Congress was not involved in the

Odd, isn't it ... ?

... that so many people need to be reminded of this:

In fact, that's why we got rid of the King in the first place, and replaced him with a three part government, each of which can check the other.

And odder still that so many people seem to crave a unitary executive, a king by another name. It seems too many Americans take their blessings for granted, and are willing to simply throw them away because it's too much effort to deal with the messiness of governing. Easier to have one guy in charge. That way the voter bears no responsibility, and everyone has a scapegoat when things go wrong. No need to look in the mirror. No need to read up on the issues, or send letters, or protest. Everyone can be smart and smug and self-righteous, while the unitary executive fucks us into the ground.

Judiciary Committees

For reference: Members of the Senate Judiciary Committee [senate.gov], House Judiciary Committee [house.gov]

Mum?!?

FTFA: Democratic presidential candidates Barack Obama, Chris Dodd and Joe Biden all oppose granting immunity to the carriers.

Good for them!

Other Democratic candidates, including Hillary Clinton, have not stated a position on immunity for telecom carriers. Republican presidential hopefuls have also been mum on the issue.

You chicken shit sons (and daughter) - of - bitches!

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You chicken shit sons (and daughter) - of - bitches!

I'm glad someone else had the balls to say that. This isn't the usual sort of grey area political issue that you can see one way or another pretty easily: it's black and white. On one side of that border is a runaway executive branch that has completely

Rule of Law.

If the telecoms are granted immunity by the government then the USA will no longer be under the rule of law. If it comes to pass, some people or organizations will be above the law and in my opinion that is not what the US should be about. What's next Bush, dictator for life?!?

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He will declare a national emergency and stay on the presidential post for some more years. He has got good examples in the rest of the world...

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Hey, some of them are in their seat becaues of US money, the least they can do in return is open the specs and the howtos.

Doesn't matter

Even if they aren't granted immunity, I can guarantee you that no one is going to be arrested. No one in a corporation is ever arrested, no matter how many white collar crimes they commit, unless those crimes directly affect the pocketbook of other white collar citizens (e.g. Enron). I realized this the day it came to light that Sony was installing rootkits on people's machines without their permission, and yet no one was even talking about arrests... and yet, if a fourteen year old was installing rootkits on thousands or millions of machines without their owners' permission, he would be arrested in a heartbeat and we'd be subjected to a month of scary and retarded Dateline specials on those evil hackers.

Similarly, if a fourteen year old phreaker records people's calls without their consent, he is arrested immediately. If a corporation does it, it at best merits a class-action lawsuit (which is the most we're going to see here... IF immunity isn't granted.) The fact that the corporations in this case were doing the bidding of the state certainly doesn't hurt them, but it's foolish to suppose to begin with that corporations are ever held to the same standard of justice as non-affiliated individuals.

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...No one in a corporation is ever arrested... Give me a break! Corporate executives are arrested, tried, convicted and sent to prison are a regular basis. Its government officials who skate. The UN oil for food scam by itself raked in orders of magnit

Re:Doesn't matter

Corporate executives are arrested, tried, convicted and sent to prison are a regular basis.

Yes. Because they commit crimes against other executives, or the government, or their shareholders. As long as they DON'T cost these people money, they can get away with pretty much any non-violent, non-obviously-fraudulent crime against the public at large. They're occasionally caught and sued, or caught and fined, but almost never actually imprisoned.

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That's precisely my point. Again, putting aside the fact that they were apparently (illegally) acting on behalf of the government, why ISN'T jail time being considered? If I recorded your phone conversation, I would be imprisoned. AT&T does it, and

Re:Rule of Law.

If it was legal, then we won't need a law to immunize the telcos against it, right? So what's the fuss about?

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So what's the fuss about?

Seriously? It's about retroactive immunity. Since the telcos did it when it was illegal, and have since been caught at it, the question is should they be immunized for the past crimes they committed. In fact, they are being s

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You don't know a damn thing. SO shut the fuck up, bitch.

Now now, don't get all worked up. It's the nature of sheep to bray. Would you blame the rain for being wet, or the snow for being cold? There will always be mindless followers no matter what the issue

Obvious reason

The bribes haven't arrived yet.

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Damn you! I was going to say they're waiting for the checks to clear the bank. :-)

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You mean donations? http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/2007/10/dem-pushing-spy.html [wired.com]

Don't Get It

Why would anyone vote for immunity for the telcos when we don't even know what they did wrong? Who in their right mind would excuse someone without knowing the crime?

-Grey [luminiferous-aether.net]

Obvious Answer...

The obvious answer is everybody in Washington *does* know what they Telco's did, but some think the scandal may cause a lot of damage to a lot of politicians.

Nothing else makes sense.

To save us the trouble of finding out

This would be an ugly, ugly case in court. The government will insist at every turn that it would compromise national security to either dismiss the case or deny access to information and people.

So there would be investigations for years, which ultimately

No Suprise

From the article: Democratic presidential candidates Barack Obama, Chris Dodd and Joe Biden all oppose granting immunity to the carriers. Other Democratic candidates, including Hillary Clinton, have not stated a position on immunity for telecom carriers.

No surprise there, seeing as Clinton won't give us an opinion on anything

-Grey [luminiferous-aether.net]

Stupid

So far, it seems like it's either give the telcos immunity or have taxpayers pay for any legal expenses or damages awarded against the telcos [news.com].

Specter suggested granting "indemnification" to telephone companies who allegedly cooperated with the government's surveillance regimes in violation of federal privacy laws. That would mean lawsuits could go forward, but taxpayers would be responsible for covering any legal expenses or damage awards against the communications companies. Damages could run into the tens of billions of dollars if the suits are successful, according to Senate Intelligence committee estimates.

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So far, it seems like it's either give the telcos immunity or have taxpayers pay for any legal expenses or damages awarded against the telcos [news.com].

Specter suggested granting "indemnification" to telephone companies who allegedly cooperated with the government's surveillance regimes in violation of federal privacy laws. That would mean lawsuits could go forward, but taxpayers would be responsible for covering any legal expenses or damage awards against the communications companies. Damages could run into the tens of billions of dollars if the suits are successful, according to Senate Intelligence committee estimates.

... you know, that *almost* makes sense. "Sorry, our bad. Since it's our fault, we'll take any punishments for you." Which might actually be OK, except for the conflict of interest from this being the government saying that and the fact that any punishme

Re:Stupid

On the other hand, the people are responsible by tolerating a government that does things like this.

Doesn't really matter

what version is passed by the House or the Senate. It will come down to the conference committee [wikipedia.org] which creates the final bill that is sent to the president to sign. Whatever those people want is what we will get. As the reference says this is an ad-hoc committee so there is no telling who will be seated for it.

Lawmakers Delay Taco Immunity Vote

I swear that's what I saw when I first looked at the headline!

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Just remember if the taco did nothing illegal then it should not need immunity. Guacamole maybe, but not immunity.

Above the Law?

Does it make sense (from government's point of view) to treat corporations as above the law?

Maybe -- if, from a future perspective, it turns out that corporations are the successors to nation-states.

-kgj

Court vs government

The government makes the laws, the police investigate/arrest people suspected of breaking it, and the courts decide if someone should be punished. So why the fuck is the government about to decide if the telcos should be punished or not? Even if they made a law to give them imunity, surely that should apply only to future wrongdoings... Retroactively changing the law is only acceptable under very exceptional circumstances. Of course, these days retroactively raising the income tax could probably be justified as "national security", so it is not as if it is surprising...

To much information to process.

The whole thing suggest that we have the technology to analyze such a massive amount of constantly renewing information.

Assume that we do have such computing power, what would be better, more productive, perhaps even disease solving applications of such co

No impunity

It's your responsibility as an American citizen/company to fight taking any measures you feel are unconstitutional or illegal. I'm not even saying that they have to go far as to break a single law. A telco with the insane amount of money they have should

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This is the new Limbaugh meme, right? Progressives are really the old school Commie sympathizers, who have weaseled their way into key government positions to undermine REAL Amurricuns? Is it Zionism, or Islamofascists? Or maybe the Mexicans... it's so

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Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.

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Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.

But then too :
Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from malice.

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In actuality, neither side fights and toils for "The People".

No side advocates for smaller government (although individuals sometimes do).

No side fights for more freedoms.

No side cares except for their own.

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George Orwell was not wrong, just early.

Not really. This has been going on for a long time. We're only now starting to feel the effects.

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The feds have always spied secretly on phone calls, but the incident where Alberto Gonzales and Andrew Card went to John Ashcroft's hospital bed [washingtonpost.com] to get him to sign off on the spying program points to something much worse. You can either believe a) John Ash

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Am I truly witnessing the inflection point of the decline of the USA?

Nope. That happened in 1945, it's pretty much been downhill ever since.