Retailer Refuses Hardware Repair Due To Linux

Tikka writes "Today I visited PC World (London, UK) because my 5-month-old laptop has developed a manufacturing fault: the hinge to the display has started to crack the plastic casing. Anyone in the know will know that this is due to the joint inside, and it means that in time the screen will separate from the keyboard. Repair was refused, because I have Gentoo Linux on my laptop, replacing the Windows Vista that was pre-installed. PC World said that installing Linux had voided my warranty and there is nothing they will do for me. I spoke to a manager, who said that he has been told to refuse any repairs if the operating system has been changed. I feel this has really gone against my statutory rights and I will do everything I can to fight it. I will review comments for your advice."

ahem.... are you sure?

Are you absolutely sure Linux did not cause that crack to form? Think about it, the laptop was rated obviously Vista® capable... did you see anything on the case to indicate Linux capable?

I think the best thing to do would be to publish as broadly as you can the make and model of this laptop and its shortcomings, better to serve others to avoid this vendor.

Re:ahem.... are you sure?

YOU'RE LUCKY THATS ALL! I've heard Gentoo can cause the computer to explode! You should put Windows back on there before the motherboard melts

Re:ahem.... are you sure?

Gentoo can only trigger explosions if you set -O6 or greater in your make options.
This is because the resulting binaries run so fast that the CPU melts too rapidly for any gas to escape, and then, BAM: yo' junk goes down faster than a Britney Spears/Michael Jackson revival duet, replete with wardrobe malfunctions.
OK, it's late, and even I didn't need that imagery.
So spare yourself the imagery and keep them make options real out there, rokay?

Setting aside the humor, do they have a point?

Let's disentangle the issue here. First the screen crack obviously did not have anything to do with the OS. Second is it reasonable for a company to specify in their warantee that the OS shall be the installed OS and no-other than what they designate? I think there is a reasonable case for the latter.

On cars, the computers keep the engines from over reving or running on too rich a mixture, both of which can damage the hardware. If you mod the software in your engine's computers you void the warrantee.

These days CPUs control the heat and power management in a computer. They control many other hardware issues. For example I had a computer one time that would constantly go to sleep and wake up every 30 seconds. The hard disk was spun up and down every 30 seconds, the power supply shut on and off every 30 seconds and it would do this all night long every night. I never noticed that during the day of course cause it was awake. It ate several hard drives, a fan, and a motherboard. It may or may not have been a software problem-- more likely the PMMU--but something like that could be in the software. Likewise the fan speed is software controlled. Sometimes voltages are too.

While Linux is not designed to destroy a computer, one can't expect every manufacturer to be aware of every flavor of linux or to know if it has the proper drivers and regulations. Someone who runs gentoo is exactly the kind of tweaker who might just try to disable thermal performance limiters.

I dont' see why they can't limit the OS of the computer to certain specifications that they will warantee.

Of course this has nothing to do with the specific problem--the screen crack. But stores to stay in bussinesses have to have policies that are simple and clear. If the manager is not authorized to make exceptions--and he's probably not qualified to do so-- then it's your tough luck perhaps. It's what comes of shopping at a discount store I think. Big corporate policies and limiting customers.

One reason I swithched to macs is that there's only one company to deal with. the store, the maker, and software and the service department are the same company. There's no arguments they can make about whose responsible and they don't make you talk to bangalore to get help.

Re:Setting aside the humor, do they have a point?

I dont' see why they can't limit the OS of the computer to certain specifications that they will warantee.

Because a mechanical fault within 5 month doesn't fall into normal warranty, according to European consumer laws this is covered by implied warranty, an this means that at first it is assumed that this fault has been there from the beginning (manufacturing fault or transport damage or whatever), and the shop has to prove that the fault occured later, and the laptop was fine at the time of sale.

This has nothing to do with what OS is installed on the system, or they can prove that installing the OS damaged the screen joint.

Re:Setting aside the humor, do they have a point?

The moral of the story is, don't buy anything from PC World if you expect anything from the warranty.

No no! The moral of the story is, don't buy anything from PC World full stop!

Re:Setting aside the humor, do they have a point?

This is precisely what I did when I received my Acer laptop from Newegg. Since the warranty was a manufacturer warranty, and not a seller one, I knew that I would have to rely on Acer for service. Not knowing how their service was, and not wanting to take a chance at the type of issue the OP is having, as soon as I unpackaged it I flipped it over, popped out the stock hard drive and popped in a blank one of my own. I then loaded up the OS of my choice and went on my merry way.

As it happened the laptop keyboard developed a fault that required it's replacement. Before even calling for service I replaced the original hard drive, just in case I needed to send the laptop back to Acer for service. Fortunately, the keyboard is a user-replaceable item, and they were able to just send me a new one. But had I needed to return it, Acer would have been none the wiser. Not only is the hard drive easily accessible, but there is no "warranty sticker" across the hard drive slot that would indicate to them that I had even touched it.

Unless you are buying a "direct from the manufacturer" laptop (such as a Dell or Lenovo) and are planning on replacing the stock OS, I always recommend replacing the hard drive and carefully storing the original. This way you will NEVER run into the issue the submitter did.

Re:Setting aside the humor, do they have a point?

The distinction is that problems that are demonstrably due to hardware failures are not caused by the software. Whilst PC World might have a legitimate case in refusing software support for software they didn't supply, it is not legitimate for them to use this to support a different area of failure. Whilst car analogies are not useful for arguing on /., they can be useful in explaining things to a lawyer - it's like changing the car radio and then getting a problem with the exhaust. PC World have taken a look at that radio and said - "we don't support that radio, we can't fix your exhaust."

In pursuing this legally, the submitter should cling to and hammer home this point at every stage, because it is the crux of the issue and it is what needs to be made clear to any magistrate. I wish him or her luck and encourage them not to drop the case, but to take satisfaction in every second that he forces PC World to devote to dealing with him. He can also take satisfaction in the amount of international negative publicity he's just brought down upon them. Here's a good reason for people to shop elsewhere.

Re:Setting aside the humor, do they have a point?

IANAL but I worked for many years for a very large retailer, where I provided the technology support to the legal staff both for their projects and when reviewing software and hardware contracts with terminology that needed explanation.

Before posting the Brand and Model of the computer, since you are not saying the manufacturer refused to fix it, but a retailer, you may actually want to contact the manufacturer.

First step is to go back to PC World and ask for a copy of the warranty information where it expressly states that because the original software on the machine was replaced they will not repair a hardware problem. If they don't have warranty details, request the manager put his interpretation in writing.

Next, contact the manufacturer directly, supply the copy of the warranty details, if you received any. If the shop refused to give you any details, spell that out. Consider providing a photo of the physical issue. Send the request for clarification to the manufacturer's legal and/or consumer relations departments. Might consider sending to PC Worlds consumer relations and/or legal departments as well asking for clarification

If the manufacturer helps or doesn't help, then publicize that fact. Give them a chance to remedy the situation, but be sure to give them acknowledgment if they do help.

Don't call them out before they've had a chance to review the situation. They can put a lot more pressure on the retailer than you can.

Re:Setting aside the humor, do they have a point?

so, your problem with the exhaust can well be caused by changing the radio.
similarly, running linux on a laptop could destroy it.

Brother, you've been in tech support too long.

Re:Setting aside the humor, do they have a point?

With such a huge aftermarket for car radios, how stupid is that? If replacing a radio can cause damage to emissions control systems, the manufacturer has a bigger problem than your car radio, big problems with names ending in Regulatory Commission.

Re:Setting aside the humor, do they have a point?

In the UK (where the PC World in question is located), the vendor cannot avoid liability by limiting its warranty.

Section 14(2) of the Sale of Goods Act 1979 imposes a statutory implied warranty that goods sold in the course of a business are of 'satisfactory quality'. This expressly includes issues of durability. Section 6 of the Unfair Contract Terms Act states that when dealing with a consumer, liability arising from a breach of the s. 14 implied warranty cannot be excluded or restricted by reference to any contract term.

Re:Small claims procedure

PC World don't give a crap about publicity - they pull this all the time.. if you've ever watched consumer shows you'll see problems with their stuff showing up all the time (their favourite one is water damage is excluded.. so if you go in with *any* fault what do they find?? water damage!!).

They also know that 99% of customers do not know their rights under the sale of goods act and of the 1% that do half of those won't push it if they stonewall enough.

Favourite common - completely bogus - getout lines are:

"You have to contact the manufacturer" (It's up to the retailer to fix it)
"We don't accept returns on this item" (They must. It's the law)
"We only give a 14 day warranty" (You get 6 months for replacement/refund and retailer is liable for repairs for 6 years.
"Replacement only on production of a valid receipt" (It's illegal to demand this.)
"No refunds" (They *must* give refunds where applicable. Not credit notes or anything else).

Read http://www.dti.gov.uk/consumers/fact-sheets/page38311.html [dti.gov.uk] and memorise the major points.

Trading standards will usually kick them hard enough (they have the power to shut down the store, and do so in some cases) - but if they don't help then small claims are good for up to £5000. The store will lose (they always lose provided you're being reasonable) and will end up paying all the costs.

Re:Setting aside the humor, do they have a point?

>> I'm not from the UK but don't you have a consumer rights protection authority there? If you do I'd say you pay them a visit and tell them about PC World. And why not shout this as loud as you can over the web. This might hurt. As far as I know their the biggest IT retailer in the UK. Maybe they don't want their reputation flawed.

A good start is www.citizensadvice.org.uk . They'll probably help him first writing a letter that PCWorld _will_ react to; if that doesn't help, then the small claims court will. At least if the story happened as it was told; if you install Linux, drop your laptop, and then the screen is broken, the manufacturer may very well be in the clear.

Re:ahem.... are you sure?

Couldn't you just reload Vista back on it, then take it in for repair? It isn't like they could tell the difference. But I do see your point, it is a matter of principle.

Re:ahem.... are you sure?

It was pre-installed, so maybe he can't. Most vendors seem to provide a ghost image of the factory HD, or the install CD itself, but maybe his didn't.

If his laptop didn't ship with Vista, then he can hardly be blamed for not having Vista installed, now, can he?

He should have an OEM CD, though, and can just wipe and re-install. I've had to do this when my current laptop had (hardware-related) problems, and it's pretty standard practice in the linux-laptop world. It sucks, but there's nothing you can do.

However, for anyone about to do this, do consider using something like Mondo to backup your PC (and don't forget to verify the backups!!) That way, restoring your system *after* repair is as easy as shoving the disc in and playing tetris for a few hours :)

Re:ahem.... are you sure?

1) remove hard disk
2) hit it repeatedly on the table until hard disk fails to boot
3) return entire device to store

Re:ahem.... are you sure?

I don't know....kids today

0) BACKUP YOUR DATA
1) remove hard disk
2) hit it repeatedly on the table until hard disk fails to boot
3) return entire device to store

Do you really want to be redownloading your favourite pr0n? Didn't think so. Remember always backup your data before smashing up your hard drive.

Re:ahem.... are you sure?

Reminds me of my student time. One guy is staring at his terminal with IRC session. Other guy walks in, sees HD lying on table and asks: "whose HD is this?". IRC guy keeps on staring and grunts "mine". Other guy doesn't touch harddisk, but says "Let's see if it can take THIS" and slaps hand twice on another table. :-)

IRC guy jumps up and screams YOU BASTARD YOU RUINED MY DISK. Took him a while to calm down and understand his beard was pulled :-)

Re:ahem.... are you sure?

I will only buy a laptop if I can change the HD, and I buy a laptop with the smallest HD possible, then the first thing I do is pull the drive, put the biggest one in that I can afford and trust, install my OS of choice, and save the original HD for sending in with the laptop for warranty repair. This way, no sensitive files could be recovered from it as well - which is a nice added bonus when a laptop is send off for repair who-knows-where... Also a good idea to plug in the factory drive every few months and update windows etc. on it, and maybe a few office documents, that way it looks like it's been used in case the RIAA wants to see it :)

Re:ahem.... are you sure?

Possible scenario: the sleep function didn't work under Linux, so he just left the lid closed with the laptop running. The excess heat, over the course of many (5) months, weakened the plastic case, causing it to crack. So actually, Linux is to blame.

I am completely serious. This is totally plausible.

Re:ahem.... are you sure?

One could have just as easily turned the auto sleep off under windows and gotten the same result. I've set a few friend's Windows laptops that way because they hated it sleeping every time they were downloading something and closed the lid!

A laptop should still cool properly with the lid closed.

Re:ahem.... are you sure?

Well you wouldn't know if it has been closed for over a year now would you?

Personally I see this as a purely hardware issue. I'm still trying to work out exactly why the laptop was turned on in the first place or how they even found out Gentoo had gotten on there.

Re:ahem.... are you sure?

Why not claim that the HD contains sensitive data, and remove it from the laptop before sending in? This way they can't turn it on to discover strange OS's. They'd have to be lunatic to claim they can't repair the hinge without the hard drive.

Re:ahem.... are you sure?

Thinkpads are tanks. We used them for our field machines, to program PLC's at sewage treatment plants. The old ones are just indestructible. You can drop em, expose them to H2S gas, let them collect data in wet nasty environments for days, sit on them, they just don't break.

I have no idea if the new Lenovo ones are as rugged, but ...... like I said the old ones are " Built like a Mack truck "

Cheers

Re:ahem.... are you sure?

In general they still are, lenovo was building the machines for IBM long before they actually put the name on them (from what I've heard, haven't completely verified it tbh)

Their carbon fiber reinforced plastic cases are tough as hell, active protection system and motherboard roll cage seems to keep them ticking long after most cheep plastic machines kicking arround today would be in peices imo

This lenovo blog article should interest you ThinkPads are Ruggedized Machines [lenovoblogs.com] :o)

Re:ahem.... are you sure?

A laptop should still cool properly with the lid closed.

In theory, this mode of failure should be still under warranty because on a docking station a laptop operates at full blast (no power savings) and with the lid closed.

None of them has proper cooling in this mode. Most dissipate a significant proportion of the heat through the keyboard. I have seen Sony keyboards being literally fried by the heat from working on a docking station. So nowdays if I get a docking station from IT my first reaction is to dispose of it and replace it with a Fellowes stand so I can reuse the laptop LCD as a monitor as well.

The only way to deal with UK retailers like this is - you pull a recorder on the table and ask for the statement to be recorded for "Trading Standards purposes". No threats, not screams, no arguments. This is enough to get them into sane mode. Same for phone calls and similar for email. While I have not had that with PC World I have had similar dealings with Misco and others and the magic TS words usually works.

Overall, while IMO the laptop should be warrantied against such failure, specifically in the Linux case the warranty may indeed be void. The reason is that the power management on Linux by default has no thermal feedback. On Centrino derived laptops under Winhoze it does and it will throttle the CPU frequency if the laptop is overly hot (even if you turn the power savings off). I do not see it damaging the case though, it will most likely fry the keyboard membrane.

Trading standards

Read the Trading standards advice for consumers [tradingstandards.gov.uk]. This advice is your statutory rights: conditions on the warranties do not apply. However, advice on general use may be taken into account. Read the advice for how that works.

Complain in writing, keeping copies of all correspondence. And complain quickly: for the first six months, the retailer has to prove it wasn't their fault.

Citizens' Advice Bureaux may also help.

Re:ahem.... are you sure?

Only problem of course for that fanciful scenario, is heat would cause plastic deformation and not weaken the plastic to allow brittle fracture unlike of cause exposure to excessive sunlight. Now of course the heat might cause problems for the lcd transistor and I could pretty well guarantee, that dead transistors due to heat would occur well before exposure to heat would cause brittle weakness in plastic, not that exposure to heat does not cause some types plastic to become brittle but generally speaking that just about right before things go up in flames, or specifically the plastic used in laptop cases does go up in flames.

So I can only assume you are being completely serious in ignorance.

Being in the UK there is bound to be a consumer affairs department to which the complaint can be forwarded, for remedial action, I know of the ones for South Australia and for Australia. These government departments are very useful as they will handle any prosecution, so not only will your laptop likely be repaired, but other people in similar situation could also get legal rectification and very likely the retailer could get stuck with penalties well in excess of the cost of repairs.

The Linux installation definitely broke the laptop

The laptop was designed to be unusable, that's why it had Vista installed. If you can't use it, it won't break. By installing an operating system that could make use of the hardware, you subjected the laptop to use it was not designed to take and voided the warranty. If you read the EULA closely you'll see that any computer with Vista installed is not actually intended to be used.

Re:ahem.... are you sure?

It's not the manager's fault, he'd just heard that Linux users were all a bunch of crackers.

Re:ahem.... are you sure?

Those white boys shouldn't even be near computers