China Says Tibetans Need Permission To Reincarnate 553
michaelcole writes "China has banned Buddhist monks in Tibet from reincarnating without government permission. This article is both hilarious and sad, looking at the lengths to which a government will go to regulate thought through censorship. It also goes into some of the more subtle politics of the current 72-year-old Dalai Lama as he thinks about his political and spiritual successor. The Dalai Lama 'refuses to be reborn in Tibet so long as it's under Chinese control.'"
And so help us... (Score:5, Funny)
Nonsense, baby organs aren't developed enough (Score:4, Insightful)
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Since we are talking about China here, this is actually more scary than funny...
novel politics (Score:5, Interesting)
The thing is, they couched their control over Tibet in religious terms, to to properly destabalise that, China must work against their control on those same terms.
Not that I condone China, but they're not the only people with a bad record in this dispute.
The Dali Lama position has frequently been held by people whose selection was extremely useful politically (influential families and such). I find it all highly suspect. Probably because, since I have a reasonable self image, I don't need to delude myself that a country with a population mostly consisting of poor people prone to starvation at the slightest turn of fortune is somehow also the keeper of a path to some higher state of being.
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Indeed it has, it is the pondering of such things which helps me identify the flaw in the western idealised view of Tibetan life, and to reject the idea that they have the solution.
Also, so what? I can't spell too well, at least I'm not so hung up on minutia that I base half my comment on being annoyed about a missing 'a'.
Re:novel politics (Score:4, Insightful)
So has Yasser Arafat. What's your point?
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The Dalai Lama must not be Buddhist then. By the Tibetan doctrine of reincarnation, the current Dalai Lama and his predecessors are all the same person. (This is why you will hear the current Dalai say weird things like "300 years ago, when I went to Beijing....") And the predecessors were definitely violent people: they oversaw incredibly bloody wars against rival temples in the endless Tibetan power struggle. The
Re:novel politics (Score:5, Insightful)
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Spot on. Michael Parenti has a good article [swans.com] about the dubious track record of the Dalai Lama, and Buddhism, and the myths surrounding Tibet. Citing the Washington Post, he refers to a former slave from the old corrupt and aristocratic Dalai Lama regime:
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Re:novel politics (Score:5, Insightful)
Huh? Tibet has been occupied since the 1950's which if you compare it to the current world situation of the times, we Americans were still highly geared up for segregation and discrimination of African Americans in the South and only a handful of people were fighting to change it until the 1960's equal rights movement.
Hell... We are talking about a 3rd world nation's history from prior to that we might as well be talking about the Tsar and how bad he was that make the Soviet Crimes acceptable or how great the Zulus had it because the British brought them civilization at the point of a gun. Tibet had no road infrastructure, no factories, no electricity, no telecommunications, no real constitution, and pretty much was a society comparable to same one of medieval or ancient times.
And you come to us and say that the Dali Llama and upper society was to blame for all this? Its kind of like expecting a medieval king of Europe in the 1300s to come out and say "Let's have an revolution for the people! Equal rights for all! Lets do away with Catholicism and all you believe in while we are at it."
Things like that need things like printing presses, universities, trade, burghers, factories, and everything else needed for a revolution and a change in culture. Even if the Dali Lama came out and said we need to get rid of the old system, the peasants of Tibet would have said "Reject hundred of years of tradition? The Dali Lama has gone mad! Time for a new Dali Lama!"
Yeah... China brought civilization and industrialization to Tibet, but they did it at a point of a gun just like Europe brought civilization to Africa. It is wrong and look how it turned out for a lot of places.
The same apartheid in South Africa is going on in Tibet. Native Tibetans are 3rd class citizens even if they reject Buddhism.
Of course the Tibetan lower class had it bad... Just like any other lower class in any third world nation. Its not something the leadership could correct even if they wanted to.
Secondly it has nothing to do with religion and backwardness. China as a sense of their own Manifest destiny.
Originally, Mao had claimed that Mongolia, Vietnam, and Korea have and always been a part of China just like Tibet. Stalin and the Red Army basically told him to can that idea.
Of course the Dali Lama got caught up in the web of the CIA and things went bad.
So don't tell us things sucked worse under the Lamas because it would have sucked anywhere, and it even sucks even worse with the current regimes policy towards non-ethnic Chinese.
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Huh? Tibet has been occupied since the 1950's which if you compare it to the current world situation of the times, we Americans were still highly geared up for segregation and discrimination of African Americans in the South and only a handful of people were fighting to change it until the 1960's equal rights movement.
Oh dear, please don't get me started on the US and its human rights record. Mind you I come from a wealthy Australian Family, and although we
He asked for it ;) (Score:5, Insightful)
I can see how that had a stabilizing effect, though. It's hard to argue the legitimacy of a succession when, so we're told, there was no succession, silly. There never was one. It's the same guy on the combined secular and spiritual throne, for the last several centuries straight.
Now if you're more secular minded, like I am, you probably won't give a damn about such claims. Pfft, of course there were several Dalai Lamas, and each must be judged by his own merits and shortcomings.
But let's pretend that we believed that reincarnation claim. There was always the same guy on the throne. The same applies to most of the other Lamas, btw. So essentially the not only they had the same ruler all along, but they had the same guys as his councillors/cardinals/whatever-you-want-to-call-t
Then, pray tell, why _shouldn't_ we hold him responsible for what he's done at various points in the last few hundred years?
Since you mention the Tsar, I'd do the same if there was one and the same Tsar on their throne ever since Ivan the Terrible assumed that title. If anyone's claim to authority was that he, essentially, _is_ Ivan the Terrible, plus all other Tsars ever since... then I'd also hold him responsible for all the atrocities those did at various points.
2. The point that things sucked everywhere if you go far enough in the past, is true and insightful, but it still doesn't remove another question: then how enlightened were they after all?
A lot of disillusioned westerners have this idea that even shit smells great if it's packed as some ancient asian mysticism. Surely every single religion, cult, superstition, heresy or divine right excuse is pure enlightenment, if it comes from the far east. And their monks and gurus? Whoa, if they're from the far east, they surely were all enlightened, selfless, generous, open-minded, and so learned that they were a walking Wikipedia. Why surely if you gave a bunch of them secular power, that'd rock, right?
So then you look at one state that was ruled like that, and the best that you can say is, well, as you were saying, that it wasn't much worse than any other medieval totalitarian state.
Basically to answer to your example about the European medieval kings of 1300: no, of course, I wouldn't condemn them for being medieval back then. But I wouldn't hold them as an enlightenment model for the present generation either.
Re:novel politics (Score:5, Interesting)
Read a history book. Prior to Chinese reforms in 1959, over half of Tibet's population were basically slaves. They were serfs who were obligated to work for no pay on the estates of the ruling monks and elite merchants, legally forbidden to leave, and could be summarily killed at their liege-lord's whim. They were traded or sold from one liege-lord to another, often breaking up families. Forget the segregation of 1950s-era America - you would have to go back to the slavery of the pre-civil war american south to find any analogous set of social circumstances. The wealthy ruling monks, of course, taught their serfs that they were responsible for their own suffering due to transgressions in past lives. The Chinese are a bunch of jerks, and they are certainly oppressing the Tibetans, but Chinese rule is nothing compared to the slavery that most of Tibet lived under prior to 1959.
Re:novel politics (Score:5, Insightful)
As for the monks having been relatively well off historically - yes, just as the monasteries were in old Europe. However, just like it had been in Europe, most every family could and would send one of its sons into the monkhood. So it does not map into Marxist analysis of hereditary class differences, as much as the Maoists would like to force it into that mold. It solved a problem in both Europe and Tibet - a farming family needed to have enough sons, and the best way to be sure of that was to have extra sons. But with too many sons the farm would become split up too small by inheritance to each of them. So sending the extras off to attend to religion rather than farming was good for both farms and the religious institutions.
Now, I'm an athiest (actually, many practicing Buddhists are too - although the Tibetans more tend to polytheism), so I don't on the whole favor massive social investment in religious institutions (however beautiful some of the buildings and art end up). But there's something in Tibetan Buddhist culture that clearly produces superior sanity in its common people. Perhaps that's related to the degree that Buddhism has since its founding specifically involved itself in psychological as well as religious questions.
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Seriously, he immediatelly insisted she be locked up as insane because she questioned the truth of the bible, she reports him as screaming abuse at her. Fortunately her father (also a religious nutbar, but less so) didn't, because it would have probably ended his marriage.
Crazy people....
I have no liking for religion at all, a
People Versus Philosophy (Score:3, Insightful)
So, having decided that you do not like religious people, the question still stands; how much have you studied religion? Do you know anything about the eightfold path? What the difference between Mecca and Medina is? What a pharasee is, versus a zealot? Who really got the Protestant revolution rolling?
Because however you feel about the people who choose to practice religion today, and devote more of their life to it than to other pursuits, religion as a cultural force is incredibly powerful and far reachi
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Re:And so help us... (Score:5, Funny)
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The U.S. has no shortage of energy options. It is just that oil is so damn cheap that unless the supply is seriously endangered, the U.S. isn't going to make the investment to change.
Re:And so help us... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:And so help us... (Score:4, Funny)
US, EU, and Japanese food exports (Score:3, Insightful)
You're suggesting that somehow the whoooole rest of the frickin world would die if America stopped exporting stuff?
Actually if the US, along with the EU and Japan stopped subsidizing food exports third world nations would then grow more food themselves. Because First World nations heavily subsidize agriculture they are able to export food to third world nations cheaper than people in those countries can grow it. That's one of the reason the US has as many "illegal aliens" or immigrants from Mexico. Be
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I don't know about Tibet in particular, but most of the oil in China is in the western provinces and Xinjiang. (In fact, a quick google search reveals news of oil and gas finds in Tibet.)
Did anyone ever tell you that to someone who isn't a rabid fundamentalist liberal, the rabid fundamentalist liberal non sequitor talking points sound retarded?
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P.S. My sig is topical, no?
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if only america could survive without china to prop itself up on... bonds and manufacturing will keep that from happening.
Start dealing out economic pain to them ensuring that the next time they come to the table, this won't be a problem. Offer incentives for retaining long-term US-on-US industries, with heavy penalties on using the "Google/Yahoo excuse". Then make it possible to prohibit admissions restrictions/funding structures for US citizens for higher education.
Make them feel pain for taking what has been ours.
Re:And so help us... (Score:5, Informative)
Hes a pretty bit of prick for a religious figure (ruling class of priests vs poor serfs).
If we are going to accept what the Wikipedia says about Tibetan Buddhism [wikipedia.org], he's more of a guru (a teacher) than a priest.
The world is better off without anyone who enjoys seeing people die horrible diseased deaths because they believe it brings them closer to god imo.
And how is that related to the Dalai-Lama? Oh, you talk about the "Dali Lama" which must be a twisted version of the Dalai Lama. That would explain your statements. And [uni-bielefeld.de]Buddhism seems to have no gods [wikipedia.org], at least in the traditional sense you imply by brings them closer to god.
But let this not keep you from bringing up references that support your statements.
Re:And so help us... (Score:4, Funny)
So by my measure, the Dalai Lama seems like a pretty good dude.
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But what you say is true. The current regime in China is not as bad as the Soviet Union under Stalin or China under Mao.
However, by embracing the worst aspects of what is often falsely described as "free-market capitalism", China may be heading for something much, much worse.
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However, by embracing the worst aspects of what is often falsely described as "free-market capitalism", China may be heading for something much, much worse.
They have a strange mix of laissez faire practices and statism (partial-state ownership of industry) + strong currency controls. and their ultimate goal is to improve communism through capitalism.
What is this ominous "much, much worse" that they're heading for.
And really, WTF does that have to do with Chinese treatment of Tibet?
You seem to be conflating two entirely separate matters.
WWBD? (Score:5, Interesting)
Even though many people don't know much about Buddhism, the image they have of the Buddha is not too far off base.
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You are just saying the same old false dogma.
Well then... (Score:4, Funny)
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:o (Score:2, Funny)
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It'll be a she, too (Score:5, Informative)
But the law is only partly directed at the Dalai Lama. A whole score of other "Living Buddhas" are believed by Tibetans to be reincarnating, which has important consequences for claims to social influence in that rocky corner of the world. China has long sought to control this, for example with the high-profile abduction of the then 6 years old Panchen Lama [wikipedia.org] whose whereabouts remain unknown.
The News may seem offbeat, but it is actually rather serious for Vajrayana (Tibetan Buddhism) believers. Lamas are regarded to simply live many centuries, with death/reincarnation just a particular step in the way. The Chinese announcement will seem to the believers like the deliberate attempt to end the lives of all remaining leaders of the religion.
Oblig. (Score:2)
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Re:It'll be a she, too (Score:5, Interesting)
The Dalai Lama said he _might_ be reborn as a female.
Buddhists believe that highly realized beings like the Dalai Lama (Called 'Bodhisattvas': those beings are believed to have attained a certain step on the path to enlightenment which gives them certain powers over their mind) will choose the form which best benefits sentient beings at the time when they are reborn. In past times, this seems to have been a male body, since Tibet was mainly a patriarchy.
If now a female body best benefits sentient beings, then the Dalai Lama is female in his next life. If now (still) a male's body best benefits sentient beings, then the Dalai Lama is male in his next life. If a bird's body best benefits sentient beings, then the Dalai Lama is a bird in his next life. Again, this is buddhist believe and of course questionable from a scientists point of view. (On a personal note I want to add that if I look at the Dalai Lama and the way he acts, I personally feel that this might actually be true)
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Re incarnation (Score:4, Informative)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzCl95A90P0 [youtube.com]
Just ask their border police.
Just to make sure (Score:3, Insightful)
In other news, the Catholic church..... (Score:2, Funny)
Said the Agency:
Holy shit. (Score:4, Interesting)
C'mon that's just hilarious (at least if it wouldn't be that sad). It's a wonderful example how totalitarian states need to control every corner of life even the dark corner of superstition.
But please don't forget that Tibet was a theocracy (actually a bodhisattva-cracy) before the Chinese Army invaded and the Dalai Lamas only became meek as a lamb after they/he lost power.
That China is evil doesn't mean Tibet was good.
Re:Holy shit. (Score:4, Funny)
I think it is amazing that the Chinese government can give permission to reincarnate. Maybe they can offer a package deal to people on their last legs: pay for permission to come back and agree to leave the country afterwards.
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Yeah, that would be total biopolitics they would sell your body to Body Worlds [wikipedia.org] and sell you the permission to reincarnate.
I always thought we need a IOsM [hrw.org] (international Organisation for spiritual Migration) all these souls crossing borders to reincarnate. We have to regulate that it's a wide open door for terrorists.
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To be fair, we tend to assume all nations with an individual leader are bad, but we rarely see one where the leader has been trained from a very early age to be as nice as possible to people
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The Process (Score:2, Insightful)
As absurd as this issue see
how do they define reincarnation? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:how do they define reincarnation? (Score:5, Informative)
It's that last bit where it gets tricky. By custom, certain high monastic officials may have the final say in who is/isn't a new incarnation. Everyone doesn't always agree- look at the current case of the Karmapa [wikipedia.org]. Having recognition from a high-ranking monastic (like the Dalai Lama) may help cement the claim. In any case, there are sometimes multiple claimants, and it takes a few years (or a generation) to sort things out.
China wants to give itself the final say in who is the reincarnation, and perhaps control over the selection committee that finds the candidate children. It did something similar with the Panchen Lama, but would like to extend the practice to all Tibetan tulku- most importantly, the selection of the next Dalai Lama. They would pick a child who would inevitably be spirited away to be raised by party officials and state-approved monks, who would teach them the ritual roles of the Dalai Lama along with a meaty helping of state propaganda. The PRC might even pick a Han Chinese child living in Tibet; Han immigration is a big issue in Tibet, with a lot of external rights groups agreeing that the PRC is essentially attempting to 'choke out' Tibetan culture by settling non-Tibetans in the region as fast as possible (ethnic Tibetans are now, I believe, a minority in most of Tibet- certainly in the larger towns and cities).
The biggest outcome of all this will be to 'muddy the water' regarding who is the real tulku. Tibetans will be presented with a state-approved figure, and expected to treat them as the real deal. Rival claimants will appear among the Tibetan diaspora. It is essentially an attempt to drive a wedge between the Tibetan people and their religion, and to splinter the exile and remaining resident Tibetan communities.
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Then in that sense, it's no different from how they feel they have the right to appoint their own Catholic bishops in their country, even if the Vatican disapproves. I believe this created a big row at one time, where China appointed bishops not approved by the Pope, and they were excommunicated.
Its not about "stating" differences (Score:5, Interesting)
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Maybe the real change here is opening the door to harass buddhists for supporting someone (next D.L.) they are defining as a criminal.
Melting Alpacas? (Score:5, Funny)
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it's neither hilarious nor sad (Score:4, Interesting)
Amusing, but (Score:5, Interesting)
Here's some background: Whether you like the Chinese government or not, and whether you feel that they are wrongfully occupying Tibet or not, the fact is that they feel that this is their territory, and nobody in the world offers any serious challenge; ergo, Tibet is de facto a part of China. Nobody in their right mind would expect a country to allow an external, hostile, political power to influence the internal affairs of the country - the US have historically been very heavyhanded in similar situations (eg. the communist scare after WWII); many would still today argue that it was right of them.
The Dalai Lama is undeniably a political influence in Tibet, and he is undeniably hostile to the Chinese government; it is pure common sense that they want to minimize his influence on any part of the Chinese population (and as I pointed out, the Tibetans are de facto part of the Chinese population). It is not only common sense, it is the duty of any government to oppose any influence that would destabilise the society they are governing; and it is only fair to say that the Dalai Lama wants to destabilize the situation - after all, he wants the Chinese to leave and Tibet to be an independent nation. How could that be achieved without a war of independence? And even more - if the Chinese government were to say 'OK, we agree; we simply leave Tibet', that in itself would destabilize the country. Suddenly most Chinese investments would be withdrawn, most Han Chinese would probably leave etc; the result would be BIG PROBLEMS.
And while we are talking about the 'horrible repression of the Buddhists' - do you actually know what it was like in Tibet before? It was a feudal society (like Europe in the middle ages). If you were born into a rich family, you could get away with anything; if you were poor, you could get cruel and absurd punishments for small 'crimes' - like having a foot chopped off or your eyes gouged out. There is no doubt that it is better now. There is also no doubt that it could be better than what it is now, but it isn't too bad for most. The ones that howl and complain now are the ones who were members of the aristocracy or the corrupt monastries.
Even more amusing, but (Score:2)
Re:Amusing, but (Score:5, Informative)
The Dalai Lama has actually struck a much more conciliatory position than you ascribe to him in the years since his exile. First of all, his (or a future Dalai Lama) ruling the country in the fashion of the old kingdom is a non-starter- he himself was involved in organizing a government-in-exile independent of him and elected by Tibetan expats to represent the country. He has repeatedly stated in the last several years that his is not interested in seperating Tibet from China- let China manage the external affairs of the country, similar to the way Hong Kong now operates, while allowing Tibetans the same sort of local autonomy that China has been allowing to other 'Special' zones within the country. You'll notice that nearly ten years ago, the ICT and other organizations changed their slogan from 'Free Tibet' to 'Save Tibet'- indicating that preserving Tibetan language and culture is given a much higher priority than political independence, even if that means making permanent accommodations to China.
Finally, to say that only aristocrats and crooked monks lament the effect of China's invasion is a gross over-generalization. Yes, those groups had the most to loose. But there are plenty of ordinary Tibetans who are none too happy with the loss of their language, their religious institutions, and their national identity as a free nation.
Were conditions in Tibet before the Chinese invasion bad? Of course. It was a dirt-poor nation essentially stuck in the middle ages. The current (and immediately previous) Dalai Lama were interested in modernizing, and changing some of those conditions. Chinese investment has made material improvements in the lives of some, but those improvements tend to be concentrated in the hands of party loyalists. Much of Tibet's natural resources have been used to fuel growth in the rest of China; during the Great Leap Forward, Tibetans were allowed to starve while their agricultural output was sent back to the Chinese mainland, a pattern of exploitation of ethnic minorities that has been repeated many times by the PRC central government.
The number of Tibetans in Tibet has dropped by about 1/6th since the Chinese invasion, in the form of emigration to India and Nepal and deaths, due to starvation, executions, and military action. Forcible sterilizations have been carried out among ethnic Tibetans. The Tibetan language and traditional cultural expressions have been banned or strongly restricted. The sorts of cruel punishments carried out by medieval justice are still present, just updated in the form of electrocutions, torture, and beatings for individuals suspected of being linked with the independence movement, or showing reverence for the Dalai Lama. I think a lot of Tibetans would take their old medieval landlords over that- though even the medieval landlords themselves are now arguing for a democratic government.
Re:Amusing, but (Score:5, Informative)
This is the place where a lot of the Chinese disagree. If you think the Tibetans are culturally and linguistically distinct, then you haven't been China. You see, before Qin formalized the same writing system for China back in 200s BC, China was really a collection of distinct countries. Each with their own language and culture.
Today you can still tell where a person is from just by their accent of their mandarin. Most places in China also have their local dialect, so you won't get far trying to convince a Chinese person that Tibet should be separated because of their distinct language. When I was living in Nanjing, I could drive for about 5 hours in different directions, and I would come to two different places with distinct culture and language.
If I drove east, I would come to Shanghai, they have their own dialect that is very different than mandarin. So different that I still don't understand a word they say, after living in China for 10 years. They are famous for their XiaoChi (street food).
If I drove a little to the south, I would arrive at Zhejiang. People here speak a just as different dialect as those in Shanghai, after visiting every summer (because my father's family is from there) for 10 years I still dont understand it. I was told that this dialect is similar to that of Shanghai, but I can't say for sure because they both sound so different. My mother, who have been visiting since she married my father (around 20+ years ago) can understand some of it, but still can't speak it. People here are famous for their taste in seafood, salting live crabs, for example.
My point is that if you are trying to convince a Chinese person that Tibet deserve to be separated, and used their distinct culture and language as the reason, then by that reason many more parts of China also deserve to be separated. I think most people does not know how diverse in culture and language China is.
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maybe, but they're wrong. your argument goes on to note that there are lots of differences within China, and supposes that this invalidates the claim that Tibet is culturally and linguistically distinct. the differences within Mandarin Chinese are roughly akin to the differences in English spoken worldwide. throw in Cantonese, and you're getting into the relationship between, say, English and German or French. i can, with moderate success, tell where in
China itself is a fiction (Score:4, Informative)
The historical claims are many and conflict. For instance, we could just as easily and with equal evidence and authority back Mongolia's claim to all the territory we currently describe as "China" on the world map. Genghis Khan did conquer Han kingdoms fair and square and totally subjugate them. So perhaps Beijing and mainland Han should quit their bellyaching and submit to Ulan Bator's rightful historical claim to primacy over the People's Republic.
Or we could, ironically enough, substantiate Tibet's claim to a huge chunk of territory currently ascribed to "China." They won and subjugated that fair and square, too.
Or we could argue pretty forcefully that "China" belongs to the Manchus, since they thoroughly conquered China and formed its last dynasty, the Qing. Much of what we in the West think of as Chinese hallmarks (topknots, qi paos, those vests and leggings men used to wear) are Manchu in origin.
Even Han areas themselves have been separate kingdoms at many times throughout history, including the period of time when the South was a kingdom ruled from Nanjing "South Capital," and the North a kingdom ruled from Beijing "North Capital."
So China is now and always has been a completely artificial amalgam held together by force of arms. And given Beijing's policies of forced sterilization, Han colonization, and ethnic cleansing it does not appear as though the minorities that find themselves within the border of "China" will be able to get away from it for a long time, if ever. It sucks, but that's the reality.
The parent poster brought up the diversity of those elements that constitute China as an argument against self-determination for the Tibetans and other ethnic minorities in China like Mongols and Uighurs. After all, if everyone in China can't understand what in the heck the people from the next province over are saying, then why should the Tibetans be so special as to get to have their own country? But really, in a back-handed way it points up how absurd is the notion of a unified China that Beijing is always going on about. "China" is so fractious that it makes the San Andreas look like the Rock of Gibraltar. One hard push like an economic or environmental collapse and "China" would dissolve into a bloody civil war with 15 sides.
As a last, tangential, and completely personal aside, it would be wonderfully novel and refreshing if people educated in China could ever come out with a comment or point of view that's not state-sanctioned. But seeing's how the official history books there can all be summed up with "5000 years of history blah blah blah some stuff happened blah blah blah and then glorious Communism came to the People," it's probably a forlorn hope.
Re:Amusing, but (Score:5, Interesting)
Here are some suggested substitutions to your text:
1. Replace "Chinese" with "British", "China" with "the British Empire", "Tibet" with "India".
2. Replace "Chinese" with "Soviet", "China" with "the USSR", "Tibet" with "Czechoslovakia".
3. Replace "Chinese" with "Belgian", "China" with "Belgium", "Tibet" with "the Congo".
4. Replace "Chinese" with "American", "China" with "the USA", "Tibet" with "the Philippines".
Which of these would you still defend? If not all, which ones and why not?
Shame on Newsweek (Score:2, Insightful)
In other news, I am exercising restraint. (Score:2)
People, when I learned about these restrictions on reincarnation, I nearly lost control of my incredible mystical might! However, after careful consideration, I have decided not to use my awesome supernatural powers against the Chinese state. I could unleash a magical fury and I could re-materialize as a thousand dragons that would crush this oppressive regime, but only if I wanted to. Luckily for them, I have decided to—ahem—exercise restraint and let the process work itself out through norm
The price of fish? (Score:5, Funny)
It's certainly a censorship issue but hardly related to the techie world, unless I missed the RFC on Buddhist reincarnation.
Funny take on the subject (Score:2, Funny)
UK Government has similar policy (Score:2)
They'll be banning sparrows next... (Score:4, Insightful)
Other enlightened activities from the People's Paradise included the public humilation and beating of teachers and academics (those well known threats to the very fabric of society) in the streets.
It should come as no surprise to anyone who reads slashdot that a) the Chinese concept of government is a rather loose term and b) that regular news scraped from msnbc about Bhuddism, the Chinese and er.. religion is somewhat short of the mark as far as news for nerds goes. It should be common knowledge amongst this readership and if not shouldn't you be listening to the Skeptics podcast? http://www.theskepticsguide.org/ [theskepticsguide.org] or even reading other material?
Oh, and I am surprised at the absence of a surfeit of comments mentioning how all of the vitriol here is counter to almost everything the present Dalai Lama has said on
Re:Feeling concerned? (Score:5, Insightful)
It is therefore fair to consider the laws you refer to as being "neutral", because they simply prohibit strong religious signals IN GENERAL and not in opposition of a single religion.
They also don't tell you what you can or can't do in the privacy of your own home.
Your comparison to this new and very sad Chinese law is flawed.
Re:Feeling concerned? (Score:5, Interesting)
Let's take this to its logical conclusion.
Therefore, it is forbidden to be naked, and it is forbidden to be clothed. So nakedness is both forbidden and mandatory.
Clever, that.
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equal persecution of all religions (except Buddhism)
You must be joking.
Allowing or accepting the uncontrolled exercise of all religious aspects is unacceptable in any modern society.
Society as a whole is (and should be) dominated by non-religious values. In fact, that is the only way to ensure equal space for all religions. If the moral/ethical ways of the society I live in has decided that "murder is illegal", but my religion dictates that I must make a human sacrifice every month, which should win? If the moral/ethical ways of the society I live in ha
Re:Feeling concerned? (Score:5, Insightful)
This is also essentially the next round in the ongoing battle of what will happen to the institutions of Tibetan Buddhism once the current Dalai Lama dies. China wants the next DL to be a hand-picked puppet of the state who will lend legitimacy to Chinese rule in Tibet. At the very least, they would like to create a long-standing controversy over who the 'real' Dalai Lama is, as they've done with the Panchen Lama, in order to cast a shadow on a very visible and popular rallying point for the Tibetan preservation and independence movement.
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TOTAL population ot Tibet [unescap.org]: 2.62 million
Uyghur people [wikipedia.org]: 8.83 million.
Do you think they are LESS persecuted?
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No need, they already did that hundreds of years ago...
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So it's true such laws shouldn't exist. It's also true that when a policeman wants to see behind the headscarf people should just do it without irrational whining (because seeing a woman face is irrelevant for "unbelievers"). It's a clash between lack-of-civilizations and completely different from the chinese gov stunts.
Not similar stuff (Score:2)
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just like it was idiocy for chamberlain to say "peace at our times" after coming from talks with hitler after he invaded austria, czechoslovakia and danzig.
It's not just an euphemism (Score:5, Insightful)
The prospect that it's the end of the line at some point, is freakin' scary for a lot of people. It's not just religion that gets built on that, but also stuff like trying to be remembered somehow afterwards, or trying to make enough kids that the line will go on that way. (It's why countries where survival is a crapshot people make 10 kids or more, while after they get sanitation, medicine, etc, it eventually dawns upon them that if 1-2 kids are just short of guaranteed to survive, you don't really need more.) Anything to maintain a belief that somehow it's not really game over.
So the government saying they can stop you from reincarnating? Oooer. That's a claim that they can really end that game. It's exactly like, if you're a christian, the government saying that you need their stamp of approval to go anywhere after death. Otherwise you're going nowhere. Not to heaven, not to hell, not to purgatory (if your flavour of Christianity has a purgatory), just nowhere. To a lot of people that'll be a scarier thought than even going to hell.
Anyway, they're not saying you need permission to die. You can still jolly well die whenever you wish. Just go demonstrate for democracy in front of some tanks, if you ran out of other suicide ideas, and they'll oblige. They're saying that they can make your death a lot more permanent and scarier.
Re:It's not just an euphemism (Score:5, Interesting)
The Dalai Lama dies. Afterwards, some monks read a prophecy he wrote- or some other instructions- and go off and find a kid who was born a while after he died. The kid is (eventually) recognized as the new Dalai Lama, according to various "tests" and supernatural means. The new kid moves into a big monastery/palace, where he is given a dual education in being a ruler and being a senior monk. Once the kid reaches their age of majority (15-16 or so), they take on their new full role as ruler and religious leader. They've been reared from their toddler-hood to believe that they are responsible for the well-being of the Tibetan people, and in the traditions of Tibetan culture and belief. A similar scenario applies for the senior-most positions of many of the schools of Tibetan Buddhism, without the associated temporal power (though some of them were historically huge feudal landlords).
All of this contributes to these reincarnated leaders being a source of stability and continuity in Tibetan culture. The fact that these senior leaders won't roll over and toe the (Communist) party line has stuck in the craw of the Chinese ever since they invaded. They want collaborators, not independent religious leaders encouraging the formation of governments-in-exile. As long as new reincarnated teachers are selected and raised by loyal Tibetan Buddhists, that isn't going to be likely to happen. They want a new Dalai Lama who will stand in front of the Jokhang and tell Tibetans across the world that it is their duty as good Buddhists to stop all this clap-trap about preserving Tibetan culture and independence, and become good Chinese citizens. Start speaking Mandarin instead of Tibetan, and start saying 'thank you, it is a pleasure to serve the party' when a PRC official redirects all of your local food production to feed your 'brothers' in Beijing, as the PRC did during the Great Leap Forward.
Re:It's not just an euphemism (Score:5, Informative)
And not just any old monks. The Panchen Lama [wikipedia.org] holds a huge amount of sway in who is chosen as the next Dalai Lama. This explains the whole interference of the Chinese government in disappearing Gedhun Choekyi Nyima [wikipedia.org] and appointing Qoigyijabu [wikipedia.org] as the 11th Panchen Lama: they have a long-term strategy of ensuring all hereditary Tibetan leaders are their puppets.
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It's not just an euphemism, it's what happens after you die, according to that religion. Just like christians prefer to believe in heaven and hell than that it ends for ever.
Anyway, they're not saying you need permission to die. You can still jolly well die whenever you wish. Just go demonstrate for democracy in front of some tanks, if you ran out of other suicide ideas, and they'll oblige. They're saying that they can make your death a lot more permanent and scarier.
Granted, demonstrably the chinese government have ways of making their *authority* known; but I don't see what makes people accept their *influence* on the matter.
I mean, what possible way does the government have in actually influencing the actions of a soul of a deceased citicen? Or, for that matter, how will they (claim to) check if it's doing what it's allowed to? How can a stamped certificate make any difference in this matter?
It's like having a subscription on gravity. You can fine the hell out of me
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Disclaimer: I know very little about Bud
Re: Chinese saying they can... (Score:2)
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The catholic church is way ahead of you. It was called indulgence letters, if I am not too mistaken how to translate it. Preachers moving around through the country to sell you those holy scribbles that forgive you your sins, for a small fee, of course.
Granted, that was more in fashion about 600 years ago. But basically it's the same deal, some organisation selling you heaven.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_He_Knows_Me [wikipedia.org]
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God, what is it with all you PRC apologists with high UID#s on /. recently?
Get a clue: people have opinions about things they read from all over the world, and most of the people reading this article probably think the U.S. is fucked up as well. So what? Should we not have opinions about things other than the U.S.? First I hear we're too insular, now I'm hearing we're too informed?
Oh, and, by the way: you're going to have a hard time selling a moral equivalency between the U.S. and China in a story where
Great point there : (Score:2)
i havent looked it that way. with this, chinese government has had officially accepted reincarnation.
Re:Cult? - OK, respond to troll. (Score:3, Interesting)
I assume you're trolling, but the core beliefs of Buddhism are considerably less weird than believing that, say, the Universe is about 6000 years old, or that God magically impregnated a woman who gave birth to a human being who was, somehow, also God. The Buddha is not a God, and his teachings are really quite practical. And Buddhists do not really make any supernatural claims. They have beliefs about the way the Universe actually is which may or may not be silly but do at
Group think? Slashdot? Not in my experience! (Score:3, Insightful)
Sour grapes.
People have been complaining about Slashdot from the day of its inception, but it's still a great place to examine the world and put your ideas throu