US Shuts Down Controversial Anti-Terror Database 238
coondoggie writes "The massive anti-terror database established by the US government has been criticized for keeping track of regular everyday citizens. Computerworld reports that as of September 17th, the database will be shut down. 'The Threat and Local Observation Notices or TALON, was established in 2002 by then-Deputy Defense Secretary Paul D. Wolfowitz as a way to collect and evaluate information about possible threats to U.S. service members and defense civilians all over the world.
Congress and others protested its apparent use as an unauthorized citizen tracking database. The TALON system came under fire in 2005 for improperly storing information about some civilian individuals and non-government-affiliated groups on its database. The Air Force developed TALON... in response to the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks as a way to gather data on possible terrorist threats. Anti-war groups and other organizations, protested after it was revealed last year that the military had monitored anti-war activities, organizations and individuals who attended peace rallies.'"
Wink Wink Nod Nod... (Score:5, Interesting)
I could swear this program has been "killed" twice, and by "killed" i mean the government's definition: proclaiming a project discontinued while continuing it under a new name. (note: definition also adopted by microsoft regarding the trusted computing project)
Re:Wink Wink Nod Nod... (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:2)
No (Score:5, Informative)
This program is unrelated. It's not datamining anything. All this is is a centralized database of threats to DoD installations and personnel. Sure, it has its potential for abuse, but its a very different animal from TIA, and confusing the two does't help anyone.
Re:No (Score:4, Insightful)
TALON is really just used to schedule when bases need to ramp up security to accommodate peace protester groups. It's actually there to benefit the protesters. Not some scary conspiracy to track them. If a protest is staged at a base, and there isn't enough security, there can be traffic issues, counter-protest issues, saboteurs can use genuine peaceful protests as cover for distraction, there are a lot of legitimate reasons for the operators of a secure facility to have a way to coordinate and even cooperate with protest groups. The army has to do their job; protect the country - but protesters are often "the country" they're trying to protect.
The mainstream media doesn't report this angle of the story. I don't know why - maybe it's bias, or maybe it's just not controversial (profitable) when told this way.
Re:No (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:No (Score:5, Insightful)
Unfortunately one of the reasons is to render the protest invisible. When protesters are relocated into "first amendment zones" they are most often out of sight of the political figures they are trying to make aware of their outrage, and the protesters are out of sight of the press covering the political event being protested. The entire point of a protest is to disrupt an event or the regular flow of life. If UN delegates cannot get into the UN because of the thousands of protesters around it, that sends a message to the world. If those same thousands of protesters are herded into a park half a mile away, there is no message(other than a big "go fuck yourself" to the protesters) With things like first amendment zones and hate crime (punishing the intent not the actions) and seperating suspected terrorists from the Geneva Convention rights (again punishing intent) and databasing protest groups right along with with terrorist groups, we are rapidly criminalizing certain thoughts and ideals. We are well along the path towards outlawing any passionate dissent in our country. What is freedom if not the right to passionately and vocally disagree with the established powers?
I am not actually against the War in Iraq, I don't want the spread of Shira law and I think it is right for free nations to fight it. But I do think the way this war has been run is criminal, and many of the actions taken in the name of "The War on Terror" are treason. If I want to express this patriotism and thus end up on a database/watchlist created to protect the government from "threats". What does this say about the legitimacy of any protester tracking program?
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
What you describe is a civi
Re:No (Score:4, Insightful)
1) It's Sharia law
2) Saddam wasn't ruling by anything remotely close to Sharia law
3) There's now a good chance Iraq will be ruled by Sharia law
In short, your position makes no sense.
Re: (Score:2)
I grasp the situation just fine. But then I'm not the one with 19 question marks in an 11 sentence paragraph. Let me break it down for you. Shira Law spreads on it's own accord. Obviously it spreads more easily to weak fractured nations, but that does not mean that the weakening or fracturing of a nation is the cause of the spread of Shira Law. When I said that the way the war was being run was criminal, it was the pitiful condition of Iraq that wa
Nothing up their sleeves... (Score:5, Interesting)
"We're "shutting down" the database (fingers crossed behind our backs) but that doesn't mean we're going to delete all that data. See, we're just turning off the Microsoft Access front end that the administrative assistant in D-ring made back in June. We don't have anybody available who can actually "delete" any data, so we'll just leave it alone, but we promise (both hands behind their backs now) that we won't really use it."
I'm really pretty shocked that with all that's gone on, that no media outlet has reported on the fact that the latest wire-tapping law that was passed the last day before congress went on vacation was signed by Bush, but...he actually added a signing statement that says, uh, he really doesn't have to follow the law because hey, he's the president and terrorists are trying to kill us after all..
So, even though the law that was passed was EXACTLY the law the President wanted, because it was actually written by Al Gonzales and his assistants, he STILL doesn't have to obey it because... HEY LOOK OVER THERE! A TERRORIST!! BEHIND THAT TREE!1!!
The most disturbing part of this whole mess is that the media, the Democrats, nobody will say shit about this unprecedented power grab because at heart they are all authoritarians who want to forget all about this "Constitution" nonsense so MONEY CAN BE MADE.
People can say that this is nothing new, that when the Civil War was on Abe Lincoln suspended habeas corpus, and Roosevelt limited rights during WWII, but that's just a crock. In both those cases, Lincoln included, the presidents went to congress and got their permission to limit freedoms and for a limited amount of time. Bush is going solo on this one and since the Global War on Islamonaziliberalism is The Forever War, we'll never again have to bother with civil liberties, rights or privacy. Freedom has become obsolete in just the term of one president.
Amazing.
Fortunately, I've got faith in the belief in liberty held by many of the bright folks here at Slashdot, and I'm expecting a civil uprising against the surveillance culture to come in the form of hackers and other whitehat miscreants who will fight to put fat monkey wrenches into the efforts of the guys over at NSA. Hell, I'm not surprised if there are still a few patriots over in the NSA who might be building some backdoors into this machinery. Well, one can hope.
The fight isn't over, but it's important for us to start recognizing the enemy. And guess what: he's not wearing a towel on his head.
Re: (Score:2)
Well, he does that for pretty much all laws. It's a real stroke of fortune he never signed the Constitution.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
This sort of thing has been reported for US government agencies for decades. Back when all the data was all in paper archives, there were lots of reports of agencies that "obeyed" orders to destroy them by first running them through copiers, transporting the copies to some other site, and then destroying the originals. I recall duri
Re: (Score:2)
That is the beauty of it. Just wait until they shut it down again.
Shut down (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
STALLION (Score:5, Funny)
The citizen protection database! (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Shut down (Score:4, Funny)
Fixed that for you.
Re: (Score:2)
Fixed that for you.
Re: (Score:2)
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:And TALON will be replaced by? (Score:5, Insightful)
That doesn't mean it's not true. Experience suggests it is.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re: (Score:2)
Are absolutely all documents regarding WW2 declassified yet?
Re: (Score:2)
But you're right. The fact that you can't disprove the existence of god doesn't mean he doesn't exist. Doesn't mean he does either.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
The Moya Database.
Re: (Score:2)
Dammit... ANOTHER week...
Shut down (Score:5, Interesting)
The data will be archived, then a year or two down the road will resurface as some new system. Now that they've collected all this data, don't think for a second they will let it go quietly into the night.
Obligatory new spam from this "data" (Score:3, Funny)
To be shutdown... (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:2)
AFAIK, credit reports are itemized; they're not a number that's pulled out of someone's bumhole. And items that are patently false are contestable (not to mention probably likely to be actionable in court as slander if they're deliberately put there).
-b.
Re: (Score:2)
There's one of you born every minute.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:To be shutdown... (Score:5, Insightful)
Jerry Berman, "Security, Privacy and Government Access to Commercial Data," and
Zoe Baird and James Barkdale, "Building a Trusted Information-Sharing Environment,"
which both are published in _Protecting What Matters: Technology, Security, and Liberty Since 9/11_ by Clayton Northouse
And you can probably preview some of their text in Amazon or Google.
The basic point is that the government has been data mining private company data to try and predict criminal/terrorist activity, but has been operating without any good privacy or civil liberty guidelines or oversight. Worse, the public/private nature of the activity leads to very murky distinctions in who (govt or private contractors and data clearinghouses) "owns" what, and where said data lives and gets backed up.
Another major issue here is the total lack of mechanisms for redress if your information is incorrect, compounded by differing goals of the various organizations collecting said data. A company errs on the side of more data with which to sell you stuff; it's no sweat off their back if they lose the cost of a poorly directed bulk-mail garden supply catalog because you let a friend use your loyalty card to buy their fertilizer every week for a discount (bad example, sure, but you get the point?). If said fertilizer gets implicated in a bomb making plot, the fact that you have weekly purchases of it tied to your name becomes very important to the government, at a high potential cost to your freedom.
Open and Honest is the only way to go (Score:5, Insightful)
Keep your lists pruned and accurate. And the best method for this is with open and honest auditing in the public light. Not necessarily by the public themselves, but with public employees such as in the judicial system. Trained, skilled and non-biased eyes are always the best tools to not only perform oversight, but to keep this country or any country safe and secure.
Plain old Dishonest. New Laws Needed. (Score:5, Interesting)
The problem with these closed systems, any closed system really, is the inability to find and locate not only the errors, but the correct data either.
The real problem is that people are collecting the data in the first place. People have no idea how much information is being stored about them by companies like ChoicePoint and how that data is just a request away from anyone. This is collected without their knowledge, permission or benefit. It is always used against them. At the very least, vendors and service providers should have to disclose what they are collecting and who they sell it to. At the best, most of it would be against the law to collect. Technology has created new threats and new laws need to be made to counter these threats that economic advantage alone won't eliminate.
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
We are in the INFORMATION AGE. Your information is going to be collected whether you like it or not. What you should be agitating for is more responsible use of that information by the collectors and consumers and more education on what information being collected and how for the 'targets'.
What you should be agitating for is
Re: (Score:2)
Oh please. This is, at best, a non-sequitor, at worst a strawman argument. This isn't about "putting the genie back in the bottle". This is about setting regulations and guidelines for how this data can be used. Canada has already passed laws to this effect, which seem to be working fairly well. The only reason the US d
Re:Plain old Dishonest. New Laws Needed. (Score:5, Interesting)
The US had laws about spying on its own citizens. How well did that turn out?
The US made promises that the SSN would ONLY be used in relation to Social Security matters, that it wouldn't be used as a universal "ID" tag. How well did that turn out?
You _are_ trying to put the genie back in the bottle when you attempt to paint 'passing another law' as the solution.
What used to be publicly available but extremely tedious to collect has become child's play to obtain. People slept too long under the impression that "security through obscurity" was a horrible way to lock down a computer system but perfectly ok to use to lock down their private life. It's too late to complain about it being out there. Maybe there should have been stronger safeguards. Maybe it shouldn't have been public. It DOES NOT MATTER, it's already out there.
The information brokers today are people who operate above the board, but do you honestly think that if you made their business illegal there wouldn't be groups out there ready to play the part of the Mob in our little play of modern Prohibition? People are already out there selling pre-made kits for identity theft, CC#s, and other such black market 'information.
What sort of fun could be had if we all just pretended the information wasn't out there and we were 'safe' to continue to use the old methods of doing things because it was 'illegal' to use the information that way.
No, you won't have to worry about your supermarket knowing what you buy and sending you coupons. No, you won't have to worry about web sites saying "Looking for pills? Try BRANDX!" Instead you'll be wondering why your credit rating is in the shitter and find out that it's because you've been the target of 10 different identity theft scams. You'll find out that your credit card has been canceled because the bank has had enough of dealing with fradulent charges and simply cuts you off the first time you report one. Instead you'll come home to badly worded email threating to forward your boss every posting you've ever made online unless you start paying a 'fee' every month to keep the info buried. Or come home to a squad of SWAT police ready to knock down your door because someone put their face on an ID with your information on it before strolling into a bank and shooting up the place.
What should be done is to minimize the amount of damage that can be done with that information. You aren't going to stem the flow, so stop trying to put up dams and instead work on routing the water around the places you care about. Start teaching people how to keep their public life and their private life seperate. Start teaching banks that no, it's not ok to just accept every CC application you receive and dump the costs of fraud on the consumer and the merchant. Start teaching companies, that they shouldn't be using SSN as a replacement employee identification.
You aren't going to remove the ability to get this information, I'm sorry. Canada and the UK had a far easier time of it because they aren't the size of the US. What flies there doesn't always fly here, and it's not always about lobbies or will.
Re: (Score:2)
Don't waste your time on trying to 'control' what is being collected, the bad guys won't pay any heed and the good guys already have enough problems on their plate. Instead, spend your time on pushing for this information to be handled responsibly and INTELLIGENTLY, and not just as an afterthough.
The only way to stop misuse is to stop collection. A grocer, for example, will not collect or store identifying information if that's against the law. They then won't be able to sell your alcohol, birth contro
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
That's not a problem. The problem is that some will abuse that information somehow. Really, the problem is that we use crappy public secrets like our mother's maiden name, our address, or our SSNs to secure our identities.
There's no way in hell to stop people from gathering public information. For SURE new laws won't. After all, it's alredy illegal to abuse the data in the first place. Another new law would be just about as
The lines are clear. (Score:2)
There are some clear lines, and some very fuzzy ones here.
Most communities have very clear ideas about what kind of data collecting and sharing are abusive. A grocer who told people about so and so's booze buying was once called a gossip. Now credit cards and vendors alike collect and sell that kind of information, in defiance of community standards. If the extent of collection and selling becomes known, people are going to be offended and make laws against the practices.
Re:Open and Honest is the only way to go (Score:4, Insightful)
That's only a problem if you actually expect to get highly accurate useful intelligence out of the system.
The beauty of the real world is that even though everyone with expertise knows the system is buried in useless data, the 19-year old with the M4 who just found your name in the database considers it gospel that you're a terrorist, the 40-year old cop with his knee on your windpipe thinks he just stopped the next 9/11, and everybody involved gets a medal and a budget increase for protecting us from the bad guys.
Nobody ever has to know that the only reason you were in the database in the first place is because you walked down the wrong street on your way to lunch 9 months ago and stopped to gawk at a WTO protest.
Sure they will (Score:2)
Computerworld reports that as of September 17th, the database will be shut down.
You can trust me - I'm from the government. Would I lie to you?
On a more serious note, how in the world could anyone actually verify this?
Where will the data go. (Score:3, Insightful)
In any case what happens to the data? Will this be magically "forgotten" Will all records that came from the database and got copied to other departments (e.g. FBI files) be deleted as well?
That's the trouble with data collection. Once it is collected it may never disappear.
What does TALON stand for? (Score:5, Funny)
slashdotliberalwhining? (Score:3, Interesting)
The cognitive dissonance here is just staggering.
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
Re:slashdotliberalwhining? (Score:4, Funny)
Yeah, but lose one book, and you'll never hear the end of it!
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Run that argument by me again (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Wow, where to start replying to this straw-man, loaded, trolling, "you're either with us or against us" post...
First, you are assuming that there is an "enemy". Just because Bush & Co. say we are at war and deploy our armies does not really mean we are. We are not being attacked (or at least I'm sure
Re: (Score:2)
"We are land of the free because we are home of the brave."
Its time for someone to grow a backbone and stick to traditional American values like bravery instead of blatant cowardice.
OK. If 3000 dead is not enough for the Department of Homeland Security to have a file on you, is 30,000? How about 300,000? 3,000,000? How about all of us, that's 300 million? Do you doubt for a second that the guys that pulled of 9-11 wouldn't kill us all if they had the chance?
Now, don'
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
I fully support tough anti-drunk driving legislation. So what's you point? I especially support more common sense laws like allowing liquor to be sold 24 hours a day at liquor stores and limiting the amount of time bars c
Re: (Score:2)
Then you're really not a conservative are you? Who will you vote for, Hillary? Obama? Edwards? Please!
Re: (Score:2)
The same way some gun rounds can pass through a human body and leave no exterior evidence aside from a clean hole a few mms across while others with the same energy but different designs can literally tear a person in half. There's a lot of strange stuff that happens when you get to differen
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Like the other poster said, things get non-intuitive when you're talking about high velocity. Energy = mass times the square of the velocity. So, say a mass of 2 u
Re: (Score:2)
No, but I believe that politics are part of the motivation. (Though determining what the boundaries of "politics" are in this context is a tricky question.)
That a cynical government engages in it for a purpose different from the stated one?
Yes. At the risk of being insulting, I would say that believing otherwise at this point is evidence of a staggering degree of political naïvité.
That it is unr
Press release, not real action (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Yes because if an agency agreed to that the data could not possibly have been copied before it was so publicly wiped?
Almost anything passes for "insightful" here lately.
When again are elections? (Score:3, Insightful)
But most likely it's just going to be replaced by a less public version, so we don't question our leader's intentions.
liberal whining? (Score:5, Insightful)
Why Sept 17th? (Score:2)
Using Monster.com instead (Score:2)
I, for one, welcome our new corporate-governmental Orwellian database overlords.
With things like this.... (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Commercialize it! (Score:2)
And they report data stolen or lost in 3 - 2 - 1 (Score:3, Interesting)
They must have something better. (Score:3, Insightful)
May I ask who is being held accountable for implementing this citizen tracking system? Wait, let me guess.. nobody as usual, right?
Did anyone authorize Proctor & Gamble? (Score:2, Insightful)
To think this is the only one...to think the government is the only agent-of-study...it's all kinda naive, isn't it?
Napoleon Dynamite asks: (Score:2)
Less than it appears to be (Score:4, Insightful)
For example, the database isn't going to be deleted - it's just getting moved to a different agency. They'll give it a different name, but that database will live on. And those errors in the data? Nobody said anything about correcting them.
So it's really a "Tom shuts it down then gives it to Bob who turns it right back on" kind of deal. Politics as usual...
shuts down? (Score:2)
Not a wonder. (Score:2)
Meanwhile, Congressional approval ratings drop to 18% [pollingreport.com].
Ron Paul wouldn't spy on the citizens (Score:2, Informative)
Re:I bet they save the backups (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Maybe I can fly now. (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:2)
AFAIK, courts have ruled that you DON'T need ID for domestic flights. However, airlines and the TSA can make the security screening pretty darn unpleasant for those without ID.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
The issue here is that they might be "monitoring" you due to some things you've said, done, or believe. Let's say you decide to go for a high paying, high pr
Re: (Score:2)
ZOMG!
Re: (Score:2)
They already have a replaement however.
Re:And they are waiting for another month because? (Score:5, Insightful)
We are going into an election cycle and everyone is going to need to trot out their sound-bytes on this subject. I have no doubt this move will be spun as a blow for freedom, a blow against the war on terror, an example of liberal spinelessness in the pursuit of justice, an example of the American people calling the govt out and winning, and on and on and on and on...
On another note, how likely is it that the military is simply giving up an effective tool? My bet is that this particular system has either been surpassed by another, was shown to be completely ineffective in the first place, or has been thrown to the wolves in exchange for concessions of another type.
Regards.
Re:And they are waiting for another month because? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:And they are waiting for another month because? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:And they are waiting for another month because? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Keeping lists of citizens excercising their constitutional rights to speech and association is bad because the information can be used to intimidate citizens in subtle and hard to prove ways. While I personally don't know how being in the "Threat and Local Observation Notices" database could possibly do any harm, some people might
Re: (Score:2)
though seriously, it doesn't matter if it is malice or incompetence. the end result is more or less identical.
Re:Being on a list is scary. (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
They were using — for their own purposes. If you audit a government agency — any government agency — you'll find countless databases and spreadsheets. All used for something. This list may have been discontinued, but countless others remain, and there is nothing automatically wrong about it.
As long as it is not a law, that being on a list automatically means something non-trivial, the protesting is of l