UK Proposal To Restrict Internet Pornography Sparks Row

An anonymous reader writes "The BBC reports on the row over proposals by the UK Government to criminalize possession of 'extreme' porn. The bill, published last week, would include the prohibition of fictional depictions of violence and images of acts between consenting adults. The law would also apply to screenshots taken from a legal film, if the screenshot was made for erotic purposes. The goal is to prevent disturbed individuals from accessing content online that would trigger violent behavior. From the article: 'Labour MP Martin Salter, who has worked closely ... in pushing the legislation, rejected the BDSM community's claims their civil liberties were being undermined. He said: "No-one is stopping people doing weird stuff to each other but they would be strongly advised not to put it on the internet. At the end of the day it is all too easy for this stuff to trigger an unbalanced mind."' The bill follows from plans initially announced last August."

Prehaps instead..

Prehaps it would be smarter to spend resources finding and providing care for unbalanced people, rather than banning anything (which means pretty much everything) that sets them off, No?

slippery slope here, very slippery

Re:Prehaps instead..

smarter to spend resources finding and providing care for unbalanced people

But, but, if we had gotten speech therapy for Cho Seung-Hui when he was a kid so he wouldn't spend the rest of his life being laughed at every time he opened his mouth, how could we ever assign blame for him shooting up a school to guns/games/doctors/teachers/etc?

But the problem is over THERE

I agree.

The problem is not that an imbalanced mind sees extreme porn. The problem is that the mind in question is imbalanced. Denying all minds access to extreme porn will not solve the problem...the mind in question will still be imbalanced.

And the mind in question will still be likely to cause harm.

All this law will do is create another subjective standard by which some people can be arbitrarily criminalized.

Re:ok answer this question.

"they are jsut sitting there like a time bomb just waiting on teh right stimulus to explode."

You're right, we should form that point just ban any form of stimulus from the world. problem solved.

How about we identify these individuals and offer treatment and therapy? That way we can help someone and not have to punish the 98% of the population that won't murder women and molest dogs.

Re:ok answer this question.

98% of the population that won't murder women and molest dogs.

98 percent? That feels uncomfortably low to me. But then, I think molesting dogs is generally a private matter that you don't hear too much about, so you may be right.

I'd try googling for statistics, but for some reason I'm reluctant to search for "dog molestation."

Re:ok answer this question.

> a child who was raped continuously growing up
> he rapes and kills the dog and tries to mulest mom
> they let him go hoping for the best knowing full well with a few years he will act on said impulse and end up in prison in the psych ward

> how do you propose to fix this problem

Certainly you aren't suggesting that outlawing photos of B&D sex will fix this problem?!

Re:ok answer this question.

Uh... at any time during this kids stay in juvi/foster did he get any psychotherapy? I would think a simple fix is to require continuous psychotherapy for victims like this and not release them until deemed as "safe" as any other average citizen.

Or, we can just continue to ban everything in a "free" society because of a few bad apples.

Another thought, when will people realize that banning anything does not work! Ban on guns... people still get guns. Ban on drugs... people still get drugs. Ban on XYZ... people still get XYZ.

Re:But the problem is over THERE

It's worse for porn since it's much more addictive than violence and has zero benefits for anyone save for the wallets of people in the industry.

You could say the same thing about any other form of entertainment. In a free society, we're supposed to be able to decide how to spend our free time, so long as we aren't harming anyone while doing so.

Give unbalanced people opportunities to feed their problems and they'll take them.

I agree completely. It sounds like this politician is unbalanced and needs a reality check. Porn doesn't encourage any stable person to go out and rape any more than Die Hard makes stable people go out and shoot people.

Re:But the problem is over THERE

People need some form of entertainment. Or, perhaps more accurately, a society benefits if its people are entertained. Whereas no person or society needs pornography except for the aforementioned unbalanced people.

And some people's chosen form of entertainment is pornography. You've somehow convinced yourself that only "unbalanced" people enjoy pornography, but I know of no scientific study that indicates it is anything more than just another form of entertainment that many perfectly healthy adults enjoy watching. Most surveys since the VHS days indicate that the majority of the population in western countries has viewed pornography at one point or another, and a significant fraction of the population views it on a regular basis.

There's no indication that those huge numbers of people have become molesters or otherwise scarred by their exposure. Indeed, sex crimes in the US have declined greatly as the internet became more available, which brought pornography into many homes on a dramatically more frequent and extreme basis. If pornography led to criminal behavior in healthy individuals, we should be in the middle of the most horrific crime spree of sexual assaults in the history of mankind.

The main "damage" that psychologists have found with some pornography viewers is that pornography can set up unrealistic expectations, both for what sex "should" be like and what physical ideals and -- a criticism that is similarly offered for most forms of recorded entertainment, where actors and actresses are unrealistically attractive and their lives generally are much more interesting and exciting than the average viewers'.

You sounds bit like a headmaster circa 1900, when masturbation was considered to be a horrible act children should be beaten for experimenting with. It was widely "known" at the time that masturbation led to criminal behavior, insanity, and sexual deviancy. Of course the same charges were leveled against homosexuality and every other form of sex that is outside "missionary position in marriage for procreation under the covers with the lights out". Of course there's no evidence whatsoever for such claims other than mere belief by those who espouse them.

Re:To drag it back on topic, though

Again, I'm not talking about people having sex in a different position, not even BDSM between consenting adults, but people who are deranged enough to fantasize about murder. I don't want _those_ treated like yet another minority, or as, really, just a small deviation from missionary position, I want those in a freakin' mental hospital where they can't actually enact that fantasy.

Yes... yes. I agree completely. But remember, we do have to impeach the man first.

Re:To drag it back on topic, though

> IIRC what got the brits with their panties in a knot about extreme porn, was a case where one deranged guy watched a bunch of snuff movies, then went and strangled a woman to death.

No, that is what those who propose this law *want* you to believe.

Some facts:

1) SNUFF MOVIES ARE A MYTH!

Excuse me shouting, but in 30 years of searching by police agencies worldwide there has never been a *single* "snuff movie" found (someone being murdered for sexual gratification and then the film being sold or distributed), let alone anyone being prosecuted for it!

2) He looked at sites like "Necrobabes" and "Hanging Bitches" which are *staged* porn sites with actors posing for photos. Nobody is killed in these any more than people are killed in films like Saw or Hostel or Captivity!

3) Martin Salter MP, the guy who is pushing this law, has a clear anti-porn agenda. He has just been quoted as saying "No-one is stopping people doing weird stuff to each other but they would be strongly advised not to put it on the internet" he has also repeated the myth about Snuff Movies and claimed that "it is all too easy for this stuff to trigger an unbalanced mind" even though the original Government Consultation admitted that there was *NO* evidence that images such as this caused harm!

> I fail to see what good it does to provide movies for _that_ deranged minority.

You have this argument backwards. What you fail to see is that *NO* good will come from attempting to block imagery like this *in the hope* that it will somehow stop a "deranged minority" hurting others.

Peter Sutcliffe, the "Yorkshire Ripper" murdered prostitutes and justified it by his reading of the Bible. Should the Bible therefore be banned because it stimulates a "deranged minority" to murder??

> I'll say they're messed up in the head as it is. With or without movies, that's a disturbingly unbalanced person who gets an erection at the thought of taking a life.

Exactly, see above. These people will find justifications by one means or another. Criminalising the rest of us is not going to make a difference.

Re:But the problem is over THERE

Only in America.

...no wait... wtf?

Re:Prehaps instead..

It's very easy to pick on the BDSM community... they aren't what you would call the most upstanding citizenry in most people's minds... but isn't that kinda the point?

A real free society cares about the rights of the people they don't like too.

Re:Prehaps instead..

It's very easy to pick on the BDSM community

How true. They are always getting beaten, whipped and slapped around.

Re:Prehaps instead..

Interesting you should bring that up, as in 1994 a conservative MP [wikipedia.org] died from auto-erotic asphyxiation, combined with self-bondage and cross-dressing.

Re:Prehaps instead..

Interesting you should bring that up, as in 1994 a conservative MP died from auto-erotic asphyxiation, combined with self-bondage and cross-dressing.

How do you die from crossdressing? ... "These heels are killing me!"?

Re:Prehaps instead..

Talking of rights, it's interesting to note that the bill states "these clauses constitute an interference" with the European Convention on Human Rights.

But it's interesting, shall we say, to see what justifications it gives for doing so ( http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200607/ cmbills/130/en/07130x-n.htm#index_link_206 [parliament.uk] ):

802. The Government believes that these clauses constitute an interference with Convention rights under Articles 8 and 10 but that for the reasons set out below this is justified as being in accordance with the law, and necessary in a democratic society for the prevention of crime, for the protection of morals and for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.

803. The material to be covered by this new offence is at the most extreme end of the spectrum of pornographic material which is likely to be thought abhorrent by most people. It is not possible at law to give consent to the type of activity covered by the offence, so it is therefore likely that a criminal offence is being committed where the activity which appears to be taking place is actually taking place. The House of Lords upheld convictions for offences of causing actual and grievous bodily harm in the case of Brown [1994] 1 AC 212 which involved a group of sado-masochists who had engaged in consensual torture. The threshold that the clauses have set is very high, so while those taking part might argue that they had consented to it, such consent is not valid at law.

804. In the case of images of staged activity , the Government believes that banning possession is justified in order to meet the legitimate aim of protecting the individuals involved from participating in degrading activities. This is also the case with images of bestiality, which while involving harm to animals can also involve the non-consensual participation of humans who are harmed in the process of making the images.

805. The Government considers that the new offence is a proportionate measure with the legitimate aim of breaking the demand and supply cycle of this material, which may be harmful to those who view it. Irrespective of how these images were made, banning their possession can be justified as sending a signal that such behaviour is not considered acceptable. Viewing such images voluntarily can desensitise the viewer to such degrading acts, and can reinforce the message that such behaviour is acceptable.

806. The Government considers that the restrictions on this material also achieve the aim of protecting others, particularly children and vulnerable adults, from inadvertently coming into possession of this material, which is widespread on the internet.

Re:Prehaps instead..

or more importantly, picking on the bdsm community doesn't inconvenience anyone who wants to admit it.

Re:Prehaps instead..

If you ask any dominatrix she'll tell you that most of her clientele are "upstanding citizenry." Business always spikes during a political party's convention, and doubly so for conservative parties.

Re:Prehaps instead..

How cool is it that in Britain, pornography related offenses have a fine of XXX (30) pounds?

Re:Prehaps instead..

how about YOU don't look at it, how about YOU keep your nose and judgements out of what other people like to do. how about YOU worry about your own problems instead of pigeonholing others to make yourself feel superior?

No body is making you click on those bondage/rape links.. but i'm sure you have to "see what filth other people are capable of doing" or some other justification.

Just some thoughts.

Re:Prehaps instead..

ok thats fine but keep it in YOUR bedroom, not on the internet...

Do you have the Playboy Channel? I sure don't, but it was an option when I signed up for cable. I didn't want to see it, so I didn't GET it added. I'm not sure who's forcing you to browse hard-core XXX sites, but I'd take this issue up with them. If, in fact, you do NOT have someone forcing you to view this material, then why do you keep looking for it? I don't care for racism, so I don't troll racist message boards. I don't believe I'd care for dead-puppy-humping. Go figure, I never visit dead-puppy-humping sites.

Let me ask you this: What qualifications or basis do you have to make the "best" moral judgements for everyone else? I'm rather curious.

no offense if you have to pretend to rape your wife to keep her hot I dunno.

I think the last two words of that quote sum it up wonderfully. You don't understand it, so it MUST be bad for everyone ELSE. I don't understand it either. Doesn't mean I have the right to make that moral call for everyone around me....{side note, if you'd read my post, you'd see that neither my fiance nor I have engaged in this particular play style.}

You may want to think on that one for a little bit.

At least one of us will be thinking about it....

btw your analogy on mental health really shows only one thing which is your ignorance on the matter.

This one was rich... While I've not had any partners ask for the "rape" scenario, I've had quite a few girlfriends get quite creative as far as fantasies go. I'm familiar with the material. As I've also had around 10 years experience in the psychiatric field, I'm quite content in keeping the analogy. You believe it's the wrong analogy? Fine. Show you're less "ignorant" than I am on the source material. Give us a more relevant analogy.

Re:Prehaps instead..

Do you have the Playboy Channel?

I tried it, but it wasn't violent enough for me.

Re:Prehaps instead..

That is all fine and good that YOU believe that there is no justifaction for others art or expression, or sharing of their sexlife. I whole*fucking*heartedly disagree.

YOU don't get a say over what consenting adults do and wish to share with other consenting adults WHO CHOOSE to view or participate in it.

I don't care whether it is art, for fun, to explore the darker side of their eroticism, or simply because they get off on it.

Any law to restrict production or possession of amateur porn, art films, extreme porn, whatever you want to call it infringes upon my rights; and actually it infringes upon your rights as well. If you don't see how then think of it this way:

You have a person or group of people deciding what behaviors or images are "not normal" or "too extreme."

How, at what level, and by whom this is decided is likely to change over time - therefore, even though at present a censorship law like this may not affect anything you believe in or participate in, (or may even find personally objectionable), it very well could in the future....

Re:Prehaps instead..

It would certainly be smarter, but it would also be very bad politics. Voters don't like "treatment". They want bad people restricted, or punished, or removed from society. Look at our own "three strikes" laws: they're no substitute for a decently-funded rehabilitation and probation system (which would certainly be more effective in actually preventing crime), but they cost a lot less and make the voters feel good.

Re:Prehaps instead..

Indeed.
As with "hate crime" laws, things quickly move into "cure worse than the disease" territory.
Legislation is an unnatural ecosystem, and could use some sort of predator as a feedback loop.

Re:Prehaps instead..

Well you see they used to provide places that cared for such people. They were call asylums. But we're not allowed such barbaric places these days. Instead it's much better to have them out in the community hanging around parks and schools. But that's okay since you drive your kids everywhere now anyway and never let them out of your sight.

Re:Prehaps instead..

It's because they are standing on that slippery slope that they are unbalanced. Maybe find them a level place and their balance will improve.

Next..

....next I hear they are going to ban the showing of OLD Looney Tunes.

Some unbalanced person might be pushed over the edge, and start dropping anvils on people heads.

Re:Next..

You should put an umlaut over the 'A' in Anvils.

Parliament News?

The goal is to prevent disturbed individuals from accessing content online that would trigger violent behavior.

The BBC can no longer cover the actions of Parliament or the PM?

Re:Parliament News?

The BBC can no longer cover the actions of Parliament or the PM?

Heh. You know, it's becoming less and less surprising that one of the UK's biggest objections to the EU charter has been the idea of signing up to the Charter of Fundamental Rights. [bbc.co.uk] It's probably things like this and their anti-terror laws that they don't want to give up.

No wonder British SF is so obsessed with the idea of their country becoming a fascist state.

Re:Parliament News?

No wonder British SF is so obsessed with the idea of their country becoming a fascist state.

At this point, it's not so much British SF being obsessed with the idea, but the government and Parliament...

everything else

ok...so that means they also have to ban aggressive chase scenes in movies since that could trigger road rage. They have to ban smoking, drug use, alcohol use etc since that could trigger addicts to relapse. They have to ban religious scenes since that could trigger extremists to taking action against atheists...or vice versa. What a bunch of idiots. If you ban it...it'll just get distributed around all the stupid bans anyway. Some things just simply can't be governed.

At the end of the day...

"At the end of the day it is all too easy for this stuff to trigger an unbalanced mind."

Really? Can I see some peer-reviewed research papers showing such a link? (Seriously, I don't know either way - let's see what scientists say, not politicians.)

Re:At the end of the day...

"Really? Can I see some peer-reviewed research papers showing such a link? (Seriously, I don't know either way - let's see what scientists say, not politicians.)"

That's the trouble, we have politicians making imporant decisions that can affect many peoples' lives and lifestyles without any solid research to back it up.

Same goes for important tech related legislation by completely unqualified people.

Labour MP Martin Salter

At the end of the day it is all too easy for this stuff to trigger an unbalanced mind.

Is the gentleman speaking from personal experience?

Re:Row?

It's a British word for "fight". They couldn't use the word fight because it has violent undertones which could send an unbalanced mind over the edge.

Uhhh, yeah

"At the end of the day it is all too easy for this stuff to trigger an unbalanced mind."

Labour MP Martin Salter, for one, springs to mind.

CSI, Criminal Minds

OK. I won't go through my views on what I think of violent pornography, or the idea that it will set mentally unbalanced people off if seen on the internet. I won't comment on the censorship aspect of this. I just have one honest question:

There have been various episodes of CSI (Vegas) that deal