Russia Claims IP Rights In Manufacture of AK-47 502
Daniel Dvorkin writes "In the latest example of over-the-top intellectual property demands, Russia wants licensing fees for the production of AK-47s. According to first deputy prime minister Sergei Ivanov, the unlicensed production of Kalashnikovs (which have been around in very nearly their current form for 60 years) in ex-Soviet Bloc countries is 'intellectual piracy.' A giant but declining power starts demanding royalties on commonly used methods and materials that are widely understood, well known, and by any reasonable standard have long been in the public domain — does this sound familiar?" Wikipedia notes that the Izhevsk Machine Tool Factory in Russia obtained a patent on the manufacture of the AK-47 in 1999.
Pay or Die! (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Pay or Die! (Score:5, Funny)
Every single bullet on the planet will be recoded to stop working in old unpatched guns.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
No, they will change the manufacturing process to stop those dastardly internet pirates.
Every single bullet on the planet will be recoded to stop working in old unpatched guns.
you say this... but i remember hearing that soviet ak47's have a slightly larger round than the exported model. the reason being that if they capture enemy weaponry they could use the smaller rounds in the russian model, but the enemy who capture russian rounds is shit outta luck. how true this is i cannot say, as i would think that the chamber should be a snug fit for the ammo.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Their pistol, the 9x18 Makarov, uses a slightly oversize 9.2mm diameter bullet. NATO forces use the 9x19 cartridge with a standard 9.0mm diameter bullet.
The point is not so the Russians could use NATO ammo, they can't (it would blow up in your face if you tried). They did it so that NATO forces couldn't use Russian ammo (the 9x18 cartridge would work in a 9x19 gun, if the bullet was only 9.0mm).
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
The NATO round will fit in a Russian AK47. The Russian round will not fit in a NATO weapon.
The AK47 is a 7.62/54R (rimmed
But actually firing the NATO round in an AK47 is asking for catastrophic failure, because the length of the NATO rimless round in an AK47 is 3mm short in a situation where 0.05mm makes a difference.
Re:Pay or Die! (Score:5, Informative)
It is of note that 7.62x51 NATO will not chamber and fire in an AK (x39) or any x54R chambered firearm - The former because the NATO round is way too long to even remotely safely chamber, and the latter because the NATO round is shorter and not rimmed and will swim around in the x54R chamber, probably rupturing the case on ignition if the firing pin reaches the primer at all.
Long rant made short: Don't try to sound smart on topics about which you know nothing. Check your facts; Hollywood isn't a source.
Re:Pay or Die! (Score:5, Insightful)
In my defense, I was remembering a conversation eight years past with a neighbor fifty years my senior. And hosing it. That or Sully hosed it in the first place, I'm not sure.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Yes, the operating principle behind the AK can be used for much heavier ammunition just as the principle behind the Stoner rifles can be used for
Also, it is possible to get a legal fully automatic AK in the United State
Re:Pay or Die! (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Pay or Die! (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Controlling the Russian Beast (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Controlling the Russian Beast (Score:5, Insightful)
That doesn't sound non-Western to me. I wish it did, but wishes don't make truth.
Re:Controlling the Russian Beast (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Controlling the Russian Beast (Score:4, Insightful)
Mod parent up as insightful. Buddy of mine had a grad school prof who was a Russian expert that was called in by Clinton. Told Bubba that he should support Democracy and not Yeltsin.
Ol' Bubba loved dealing with a drunk Yeltsin too much to do the noble thing and...we have reaped what he sowed.
I watched it happen and thought it was a bad idea to support Yeltsin, but Clinton felt he was getting a patsy, thinking short term and not about the future or the damage his actions might have on others.
Re:Controlling the Westernised Russian Beast (Score:4, Informative)
The current western version of democracy is just public relations theory. It is about making the public think they have some say in who rules their country without actually giving them too much. The problem is that we are given such a small selection of people to choose who will rule us from (2 in the US) that it does not actualy count as a democracy according to the strict (original) definition.
The other problem is that once a particular person / party has been elected they are very hard to remove from power even if they make some very unpopular decisions. A better description of the current system in the US or UK (or Russia for that matter) would be an elected dictatorship. Some countries in Europe do slightly better by allowing proportional representation rather than "first past the post" but these still probably would not count as a democracy in the orignal sense.
One problem with current democracy is that you need huge amounts of money to get elected, this rules out most people. This may also explain why both of the frontrunner democratic candidates (Barrack and Hillary) have taken money from the RIAA even though a great deal of the american population (I have not said majority of the US population so lets not get into semantics) voted them the worst company in the US.
(The source for this is here: http://consumerist.com/consumer/worst-company-in-
Anyone who has read this far might find it interesting too look at the definition of Democracy with respect to constitutional republics as defined on the wikipedia page here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy [wikipedia.org]
Please also note that I am not trying to argue that one is superior to the other, I am just trying to suggest that democracy is often overrated when used in the modern context of the word.
I also take issue with you implying that western democracies are impartial with regard to race or sexual orientation. Until the US elect a black gay man as president or the US senate is made up of the same balance as the general population I think this is a hard case to make. Wikipedia also has a good page on this here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_demographics_
In many ways the US is moving away from impartiality in politics with regard to sexual orientation as religion becomes higher on the list of criteria people consider when choosing how to cast their vote.
In my view the primary western value in recent years has been profit, and Russians have certainly embraced this with open arms. That is what the whole IP issue with regard to AK's is all about. They want money for people using what is a Russian state design (and a damn good one). The man who invented and designed the original AK was at the time of its design, a serving Russian military officer. If wanting to get money for what you or your employees invent is not a western value then where does the current US stance on copyright come from?
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
The problem is that we are given such a small selection of people to choose who will rule us from (2 in the US) that it does not actualy count as a democracy according to the strict (original) definition.
You seem to put a lot of stock into a pure interpretation of what democracy should be. Western civilization has poured a lot of time, thinking and blood into trying to get democracy to actually work, and it was found pretty early that a pure interpretation simply does not work on a large scale. Therefore, we have indirect democracy, we have representatives (and the associated need for separation of powers), we have non-proportional voting systems (e.g. to protect cultural minorities), we have limitations o
When was direct democracy tried? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
*shrug* (Score:4, Interesting)
Or how about a bit of gay bashing [liveleak.com]?
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
And I suspect she might be correct about other things she said: American foreign policy towards foreigners abroad is very similar to Russian foreign policy.
Re:Pay or Die! (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Pay or Die! (Score:4, Insightful)
That's what subcontractors are for.
The argument that Halliburton was the only company big enough for the job is so completely bogus, it's laughable. That's the ignorant Sunday afternoon talkshow talking point.
The Pentagon could have farmed it out to a number of smaller contractors, with anyone else being a primary, and the rest a sub, or they could have split it up to a smaller number of contracts with multiple primaries. This no-bid contract was pure war-profiteering. Nothing more. The proof is in the result. The amount of fraud and waste in this deal is the worst in history. And that was determined under a regime of very unusually relaxed bookkeeping rules that Congressional Republicans pushed strongly for.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
As opposed to taking the profits of average Americans and giving them to the US energy industry. We're talking about companies that are making record profits quarter after quarter by manipulating the system. Currently there are radio ads running trying to convince people to write their congressmen to REDUCE the regulations on the energy industry so they will be free to increase their profits. These ads sound a lot like the
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
New missile tests - While here in the US we have been doing missile interceptor tests, yep, missiles of our own, that we intend to install in Poland. We have also been testing obscenely large conventional bombs and not 100 miles from where I live we have d
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Your post was quite insightful until this point, but you just lost me here. Yes, it is our business (and I'm saying that as someone who's neither from the USA nor from Russia). It's not necessarily something we - as non-Russians - can do much about, but declaring it as internal Russian affairs that "we" are not allowed to have an opinion on and to say that - in essence - there's not e
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
There is nothing wrong with criticizing abhorrent behavior, as long as you're willing to accept criticism yourself. The problem I had with the post I replied to was the idea that fear is a worthy response to disagreeing with the politics of another nation.
At least we agree on something. I'm fully willing to accept criticism of my behavior as well as that of America. I will simply argue and debate when the criticism is incorrect, politically-motivated bullshit such as the following:
alleged poisonings - Alleged. It was also alleged that Saddam had WMD.
And it was also alleged that Japan attacked Pearl Harbor. Alleged does not mean "likely untrue" it means "believed to be true but not proven". In scientific terms, it's usually slightly better than a hypothesis.
building reactors for Iran - several countries export reactors. Iran just happens to be a country that we don't have diplomatic relations with and they say bad things about us. If we still had the relationship with them that we had 30 years ago, we'd be the ones building the reactors. I would rather someone built them reactors and supplied them with fuel than have them continue with their own nuclear processing programs.
How do you think Iran got their own nuclear processing programs
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
What do you want them to do? (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
The Western AR-15 design has been wildly successful in this regard, with what is a de-facto open-source system. It's a highly modular design which has been widely tested with numerous production variations, accessories, and consumables.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Public Domain. (Score:3, Interesting)
The AK-47 was developed under what is arguably the worst state monopoly system in history and is public domain. Specific improvements might be patented but many people paid a heavy price for it's original development and production. Ironically enough, it probably violated several western patents at the time but not even the USSR had the nerve to own ideas outside it's territory. Other nations and companies were free to make AK-47 all day long until the 1999 patent.
So yes, it was open source in a way,
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Sounds fair to me (Score:4, Insightful)
This is what we get for playing IP games and "owning" ideas.
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Sounds fair to me (Score:4, Insightful)
Central Romania feels very energy-poor, but that's an infrastructure rather than an availability issue; it's a big place, and not a wealthy one, and they haven't yet got round to putting in the wires and the pipes universally.
Re:Sounds fair to me (Score:5, Interesting)
It's a new world out there (Score:2)
Fantasies about intellectual property (Score:3, Insightful)
Why manufacture AK-47s when they could buy them by the thousands in the open market, from Soviet factories, or from their clients around the world at pennies on the dollar?
The only people the Russians are going after right now are companies that, when they went into production of the rifle, were ORDERED to make them - not exactly a good argument for intellectual property rights,
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Probably not (Score:3, Informative)
"The invention shall be granted legal protection if it is novel,
possesses an inventive level and is commercially applicable."
Since it's been in production for over 50 years, it's certainly not "novel."
If they argue for patentability from the initial design, then the patent time lapsed many years ago (their protection limits max out at 20 years).
So no, it's not "the law," it's just Russia being Russia.
Russia? No, the company. (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Russia? No, the company. (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:2)
a big wtf here. (Score:2)
WTF?
hello, the horse has bolted, shutting the door now does nooothing.
besides Russia telling you to pay licensing fees is like being told to sit up straight by the hunchback of notredame*.
*shameless rip of a fine George Galloway poke at the senate there, sorry.
------
Besides, in Soviet Russia the Gun licenses you..... (kinda obligatory here.. sorry again)
Re: (Score:2)
No...the "47" in the name is the year of adoption by the Red Army, its first customer.
rj
Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Capitalism wins... (Score:2)
But then, the licensing of the production to its Commrade States hardly means the USSR didn't keep its IP.
Re: (Score:2)
It's as though the economic model had nothing to do with their totalitarian tendencies! That's unpossible!
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Russia MAY have been headed towards communism for a few years under Lenin. Never since then has it even tried to be communist. They used the rhetoric, but that's something different.
FWIW, this was probably wise of them. I may not like dictatorships, but at least they can be made to, sort of, work. I'm not convinced that communism could ever be made to work on larger than a village scale. Even then it's iffy. And I doubt that Marxism could ever work on ANY scale. Groups that I'm awa
Update. (Score:3, Informative)
For a list of AK-47 producing sites follow the link: http://www.ak-47.us/AK47_Factories.php [ak-47.us]
Regards.
Re:Update. (Score:5, Informative)
I know this because my parents live in Izhevsk and work at Izhevsk Mechanical Factory (Izhevsky Mechanichesky Zavod) which makes hunting and sport rifles.
Expired? (Score:2)
(I also agree with Richard Stallman that we need to stop using the term "Intellectual Property". I've seen too many people confuse copyrights, patents, licenses, trademarks, trade secrets, etc. Whenever we can be specific, we should use the correct term: in this case it's patent.)
What sane nation would allow 95 year copyrights? (Score:2)
A 95 year coyright term is no more sane than a 60 year patent term.
It is likely now that you will never see any copyright expire for any work created in your lifetime. The constitutional "limited time" has been largly ignored.
The US copyright term should be laughed out of the
Patent date != Invention date (Score:2)
I guess that if Russia is expected to uphold IP rights, the rest of the world should abide by Russian patents. I doubt that anyone in Russia is interested in collecting money from desperately poor third-world countries - this would be aimed at the somewhat richer countries that manu
Re: (Score:2)
Except that that's untrue. They aren't really property rights, and they certainly cannot reasonably be thought of in a collective fashion. Copyrights and patents are mildly related to one another only in that they have similar ends and means, but this is only so at the very highest, abstract levels. Trademarks are wholly unrelated to either. Trade secrets too are unrelated. Publicity
Re: (Score:2)
Good point. Actually, it's even worse. I often see people confuse "Internet", "browser", and "world wide web". We really should be more specific whenever we can.
People use the term "Intellectual Property" s because they are collectively a class of property rights of immaterial objects.
But the laws dealing with each of these property rights are t
Prior art, etc. (Score:5, Insightful)
During the Cold War, at least a dozen Warsaw Pact and non-aligned countries produced copies and variants of the AK47, with the Soviet Union's tacit, if not overt, blessing. Even now, new AKs are being built by blacksmiths in Pakistan and US gunsmiths (the latter do this to comply with ATF regulations that prohibit import of receivers and assembled rifles).
Now that the Cold War is over, Russia wants to get paid? I'd think that with all their oil and gas income, licensing fees would be a pittence by comparison.
k.
Re: (Score:2)
AK-47 patent violations (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
The photo shows a Russian made T-34/85 on the right, and an American made M4 Sherman tank on the left, in Soviet service. The Allies shipped a lot of equipment to the Soviet Union during WW2, including fighters, bombers and tanks. So the photo clearly shows US intellectual property in Soviet service.
The T-34 on the right has a German designed 'Jerry Can', which would have been knicked off someone some time prior to the photo, or did the Reds ever co
Re: (Score:2)
Now seriously that gun was first tested in 1947, we are in 2007 isn't any patent of that supposed to expire by now?
Good! (Score:2, Interesting)
Re: (Score:2)
No, but tribesmen operating primitive machine shops in huts all over Southern Asia do.
rj
Re: (Score:2)
Champagne (Score:2)
NJ Transit [nynj.net], PATH train [nynj.net] schedules online
Re: (Score:2)
Hahhaaa... (Score:2)
Let's see some of these pro "IP rights" NATO and Western countries talk their way out of this. Good for the goose, good for the gander.
Prior art (Score:2)
in Soviet Russia (Score:2)
Profit (Score:2)
Step 2) Take over Eastern Europe.
Step 3) Encourage production of said assault rifle by communist means.
Step 4) ???
Step 5) Profit!
And all that Russian Industrial Espionage (Score:2)
News Items re Patents 101 (Score:2)
2. What is the patent number?
3. What, exactly, does it claim to cover?
How many lazy articles (/., wikipedia, or otherwise) must we endure until submitters learn to include basic facts?
Doesn't matter to me (Score:5, Funny)
They say it's totally legal
How about a 'useage fee'? (Score:2)
This is insane. The design is what, nearly 50 years old now and is perhaps the most commonly used assault rifle in the world?
Dont expect me to be paying up anytime soon.
AK-47, Prior art and GPL (Score:5, Interesting)
So there is a strong case for prior art, with patents (?) already held by the National Socialist Workers Party of Germany.
After this point, the AK-47 used a different manufacturing technique to greatly simplify the build compared to the MP44. However, these simplified blueprints are very very closely related to the Tokarev SVT. If you have ever stripped down an SVT, and compared this to an AK, you will see they are pretty much the same construction techniques, just in a different scale.
Secondly - I dont know if anyone can remember 'The Soviet Union', but it was a communist state based on the ideals of Marxism, geographically located to the East of Europe. Its a 20th Century thing - ancient history. The 'rights' to the AK47 lie entirely with the Soviet state. NOT Russia - but the Soviet Union, which is a different animal entirely. Unless of course Mr Putin wishes to disagree
Thirdly, being a Soviet state, the 'intellectual property' produced by that state belongs to the workers, and not just the workers who form part of the collective of that state, but all the workers of the world. The AK47 was, if you like, GPL'ed to the point where all workers of the world were free (even encouraged) to make millions of copies of the people's machine gun, and use this tool to overthrow their Fascist, Capitalist, Monarchist oppressors.
So don't pay attention to the lawyers good people - if you find yourself slaving away 60+ hours a week to make other people rich whilst you can barely put food on your table - then by all means, get together with your comrades and build yourselves some AK47's. Anyone that denies you that basic right is a Capitalist oppressor and a Fascist invader of the Motherland.
Re:AK's are varied and spread far & wide (Score:5, Informative)
The best AK-47 variant is produced in Finland:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rk_62 [wikipedia.org]
http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rk_62 [wikipedia.org]
http://www.ak-47.us/Finland.php [ak-47.us]
This weapon (RK-62) is widely considered to be the best assault rifle in general.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re:AK's are varied and spread far & wide (Score:4, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
Not quite true... Urban legend time (Score:3, Interesting)
Actually, he wasn't. The US was funding a different set of Afghans versus the Soviets at the time (there were multiple groups fighting them), and bin Laden was getting his support from the Saudis and other Islamists. That's part of the reason he dislikes the US so much - we were funding his competition.
Re:Not quite true... Urban legend time (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Although being rather similar in design, one can not say AK-47 would be a rip-off of Sturmgewehr-44 (I suppose that's what you meant with "MP44").
Even wikipedia.de states your oppinion as merely a theory supported by some, not as a commonly accepted fact.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Stop the myths, please.
The STG44 was first on the field. The AK47 design was started three years before that. If you've ever had the opportunity to take them both apart (I have) you will see that they are both original designs.
Re: (Score:2)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Russi a#Declining_population [wikipedia.org]
The long term stability of Russia is truly in doubt if they can't either get birth rates up or start allowing substantial immigration. Considering the rather xenophobic nature of Russia, the latter doesn't seem terribly likely.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Same tech, different caliber (Score:3, Interesting)
(Anyway, mine's legal: I own a Saiga-12, a 12-gauge semi-auto Kalashnikov shotgun manufactured by Ishmash in Izhevsk. It's the fastest, most reliable semi-auto shotgun on God's gray Earth, for only about $400. Even in that huge caliber, it's pretty much the same gun).
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)