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Microsoft, Sue Me First
Posted by
kdawson
on Mon May 21, 2007 06:31 PM
from the no-meee dept.
from the no-meee dept.
corigo writes "Supporters of free and open source solutions have thrown down the gauntlet at Microsoft's feet. Christian Einfeldt of Digital Tipping Point says 'Sue Me First,' and he's not alone. More and more people are signing up and challenging Microsoft to put their lawyers where their mouth is. The open source community is far from running scared. Will Microsoft step up to the plate, or are they just continuing a scare campaign with no real ability to leverage the patents they claim open source is infringing?"
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...hmm (Score:5, Funny)
(http://www.cafepress.com/lehk | Last Journal: Wednesday July 25, @12:50AM)
Re:...hmm (Score:5, Funny)
(http://www.emacswiki...iki/ChristopherSmith | Last Journal: Wednesday November 07, @07:35AM)
All: And me. And me too. And me.
Dingo: Yes. Yes, you must give us all a good suing.
Re:...hmm (Score:5, Funny)
(http://stinerman.livejournal.com/)
Re:...hmm (Score:5, Funny)
I guess sudoing would be OK as well...
Oh, wait...
Re:...hmm (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:...hmm (Score:5, Funny)
"I'm not scared, because I have this army of lawyers that will leap to my aid the moment i'm in danger. Right guys? guys? GUYS? [crickets chirp]"
I'd get that in writing if I were you.
let me be the first to say: (Score:5, Funny)
sue him first, pls.
fp btw!
Re:let me be the first to say: (Score:5, Funny)
Spoken like a true Anonymous Coward!
- RG>
Piss off the bear enough. (Score:1, Insightful)
(http://slashdot.org/~nurb432/ | Last Journal: Friday August 27 2004, @03:24PM)
Dangerous game we are playing, calling their bluff. The stakes are pretty damned high.
Not really. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Not really. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Not really. (Score:5, Interesting)
Apparently not because the small developers are daring MS to sue them.
I see this going the way of lindows. Ms sues Lindows. Lindows challenges Ms trademark. Ms knows they are going to lose. Ms pays lindows a bunch of money to withdraw their suit.
The way I see it Ms will sue and then pay the people they are suing in exchange for dropping their challenge to Ms patents.
This could be a good money making scheme and I think Ms is stupid enough to actually take these people up on their dare.
Re:Not really. (Score:5, Interesting)
1) actually must sue them
2) disclose what specific code infringes
3) lose the ability to enforce their patent rights against people who requested one of 1 or 2.
4) Profit!
Now, I know that patents normally don't act this way, but in this case they do. MS has been publicly stating that the software infringes. If somebody asks MS directly what specific code is infringing, and MS is not forthcoming, that will prevent them from winning a later suit against that person. Microsoft must make an effort to resolve the situation, or their later suits will be dismissed according to the doctrine of laches.
So if you are confident that your software doesn't infringe on any valid patents, go ahead and send MS a registered letter asking for the details of the infringement.
Ummm, wasn't Microsoft behind the SCO thing...? (Score:4, Insightful)
a) SCO/Microsoft: "You're infringing, we're suing!!"
b) Microsoft: "You're infringing, we're suing!!"
Different singer, same song.
In Soviet Russia.... (Score:1, Funny)
(http://www.edugeek.net/)
In Soviet Russia, (Score:5, Funny)
The answer is... (Score:5, Funny)
(http://slashdot.org/~Infonaut/journal | Last Journal: Tuesday July 31, @02:22PM)
A: Will Microsoft step up to the plate...
B: or are they just continuing a scare campaign with no real ability to leverage the patents they claim open source is infringing?
I'll take B for all the money in the world, Bob.
Re:The answer is... (Score:5, Funny)
ARE YOU CRAZY??? MS lawyers I can handle, but don't tempt them to bring out Bob.
Does this "challenge" have any legal significance? (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Does this "challenge" have any legal significan (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Does this "challenge" have any legal significan (Score:5, Informative)
IANAL, and you shouldn't rely on this as legal advice, YMMV, etc.:
It might affect their ability to sue the particular people for reasons unrelated to abandonment (statutes of limitations, laches, and various estoppel theories), especially if it can be shown that Microsoft knew about the particular facts that it would allege are violations by the particular users early on and didn't act.
It probably won't affect their ability to sue other people, though.
But trademarks are very different from copyrights, and there is nothing in copyright similar to abandoning a trademark. Trademarks are protected based largely on use, copyrights are not.
Mickey Mouse should be Public Domain (Score:4, Interesting)
(Last Journal: Thursday August 30, @10:31PM)
No wait... Disney called in a favor from their brown-paper-bag-shills at Congress, who promptly introduced this legislation which kept Mickey from entering the public domain. AFAIAC Disney used Congress to steal it. No wonder Disney grew old and stale: They have no incentive to come up with anything new. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonny_Bono_Copyright
Who were the Congressional Shills? Despite the name it wasn't Congressman Sonny Bono, but I can't tell you who did it. This is what sucks about Congress. We get nasty bills passed that take away our rights, but Congressmen are shy to stick their name on it. So while grumbling about this, the DMCA, the Parrot Act, you could be voting for a shill who sponsored it.
How about someone do a web site showing who is a shill and who isn't. Wikipedia doesn't carry this sort of info.
Why would they bother? (Score:5, Insightful)
(http://slashdot.org/ | Last Journal: Saturday November 03, @04:58AM)
(I'm looking at OLTP, because that's a worldwide non-Microsoft venture that could seriously dent Microsoft revenue in growing markets and because it's the biggest event due any time soon. Microsoft's FUD is generally not random but very purposeful and has a specific goal in mind. There simply isn't another goal on a comparable scale on any kind of near-term timeframe.)
There are a few other avenues that Linux could be doing well in, but Microsoft is growing faster in the server market despite inferior performance, reliability or security, and that's the only other area Linux and Microsoft have any serious rivalry at this time. Linux could be doing well on the desktop, but not while it is playing catch-up. It would have to invent a whole new metaphor before it could seriously threaten Microsoft in the home market.
Can you force someone to sue you? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Can you force someone to sue you? (Score:5, Informative)
Sort of: someone who would be guilty of infringement if the patent claims Microsoft is asserting were true and has reasonable apprehension of a lawsuit could themselves bring suit for declaratory judgement.
It also may be possible that a suit could be brought for defamation by someone adversely affected by the claims; that would be a harder case to advance, but carries the possibility of actual damages.
Do not want! (Score:4, Insightful)
This may sound like a troll, but it really is not: in my opinion, Linux enthusiasts crying, "sue me first!" creates in the mind of traditional business people the idea that such enthusiasts are risk-seeking. Not everyone wants to be associated with a risk-seeker.
Re:Do not want! (Score:5, Insightful)
On the other hand, if Linux just sat back and let Microsoft dish out the patent threats, companies might not want to be associated with the threat of lawsuits. Damned if they do, damned if they don't, basically.
At least this way, Linux is trying to head the FUD off at the pass, before real damage can be done. And if I was a decision maker, I'd view it as a mark of confidence in a product if they're willing to stand up to Microsoft.
Just because the lawsuits are frivolous... (Score:2)
(http://www.polisciapplied.com/ | Last Journal: Tuesday October 08 2002, @04:46PM)
If Microsoft DID have a case... (Score:5, Interesting)
Obligatory quote... (Score:5, Insightful)
(Last Journal: Thursday December 11 2003, @11:03AM)
Let's see whether Microsoft runs out of cruciforms first or the Open Source community runs out of people first.
It's on.
sue me next (Score:1)
Waste of Money (Score:2)
(http://www.restorationunity.com/ | Last Journal: Tuesday July 05 2005, @08:12AM)
I For One, Welcome Our New Linux Overlords! (Score:5, Insightful)
For too long Microsoft has bullied and intimidated. They have monopolized, stolen code (remember the Stacker lawsuit?), and tried to dominate the entire world. Sadly, they did pretty well at it.
But now, Linux is, IMHO, ready for the general user and the common desktop. It doesn't require the skills that it once did thanks to Gnome and KDE. For most people, web browsing, reading e-mail, and processing word documents, spreadsheets, and presentations, Linux looks and feels pretty damn close to Windows - but has added enhancements, has better security, and is far cheaper to own.
I'm sure these latest developments, with Dell offering Ubuntu, Vista being bad-mouthed by gamers and office users alike, and open sourcers far and wide mocking Microsoft and it's chair-throwing flunkie, Bill and company are just a wee tad worried.
Pre-emptive Class Action Lawsuit (Score:5, Interesting)
Declaratory relief action (Score:5, Informative)
(http://www.digitaltippingpoint.com/ | Last Journal: Tuesday October 09, @09:25PM)
I am a lawyer with a very small civil practice in San Francisco. IMHO, t would be possible to file a declaratory relief action. Almost anyone who has been encumbered by a Microsoft patent threat would have standing to do so. I would be willing to participate in such a lawsuit, obviously, since my name is the first on the TFA "Sue me" list.
In order for a declaratory relief lawsuit to work, we would need to have coordinated action by some of the other large stakeholders whose businesses would be impacted by Microsoft's questionable PR patent campaign against FOSS. That takes time, planning, and money, though.
In the meantime, I wanted to take some action now to see if we could at least get a show of hands of people who doubt Microsoft's questionable PR patent campaign. I believe that few in the FOSS community really believe that Microsoft's purported patent claims have merit. So we probably need to shout really loud, so that the rest of the world can see and hear us. We don't want people to believe that a) We in the FOSS community are doing anything that is illegal, because we're not; or b) that we have doubts about whether or not Microsoft's questionable PR patent claims have merit (they don't, IMHO).
IMHO, we really can't allow Microsoft to dominate the airwaves with its questionable patent claims against us.
Christian Einfeldt,
Producer, The Digital Tipping Point
/.-ed (Score:3, Funny)
Why sue when you can Deny Service? (Score:4, Funny)
(http://slashdot.org/~lpq | Last Journal: Saturday August 25, @05:30PM)
MS - I dare you to sue IBM first.... (Score:2)
(http://www.slashdot.com/~proudrooster)
Mark Shuttleworth take on the MS Linux lawsuit (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Mark Shuttleworth take on the MS Linux lawsuit (Score:4, Interesting)
That's not that big a risk. License a patent, pay some damages, buy the competition. They don't really hurt that badly in any of those scenarios. It's when some high-rolling PHB says "What do you have that can do the job of this other software that I heard about?" and they have to say "Nothing." that they really hurt. What keeps them filling their swimming pools with a fresh batch of c-notes every week is that the sheep don't have to know the name of more than one software company.
First they came for the ... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:First they came for the ... (Score:4, Funny)
Re:First they came for the ... (Score:5, Insightful)
(http://www.evanmorris.com/)
That's an offensively stupid comparison you've got there. Try a car analogy.
Re:First they came for the ... (Score:5, Funny)
(http://shockandblog.com/blog)
First, they came for the Volvos, but I didn't say anything, because I didn't drive a Volvo. Then they came for the Volkswagons...
RE: jakshamesh! (Score:2, Interesting)
(http://laurienicholas.net/)
This could be a dangerous bluff (Score:2, Interesting)
Just ignore this (Score:5, Funny)
(http://www.knowcasinos.com/)
How many SUSE using Susie's could Microsoft sue If Microsoft could sue SUSE using Susie's who sell sea shells down by the sea shore?
Answer: None. I think.
Hey, is it just me... (Score:2)
(http://tijil.org/main.html)
--Tomas
I propose... (Score:2)
Sparticus (Score:2, Funny)
(OK, so they aren't searching for someone in particular but close enough).
Public Record? (Score:1)
Honorary 'Stig' (Score:3, Informative)
Presenter Another man who had his head nailed to the floor was Stig O' Tracey.
Cut to another younger more cheerful man on sofa.
Interviewer Stig, I've been told Dinsdale Piranha nailed your head to the floor.
Stig No, no. Never, never. He was a smashing bloke. He used to give his mother flowers and that. He was like a brother to me.
Interviewer But the police have film of Dinsdale actually nailing your head to the floor.
Stig Oh yeah, well - he did that, yeah.
Interviewer Why?
Stig Well he had to, didn't he? I mean, be fair, there was nothing else he could do. I mean, I had transgressed the unwritten law.
Interviewer What had you done?
Stig Er... Well he never told me that. But he gave me his word that it was the case, and that's good enough for me with old Dinsy. I mean, he didn't want to nail my head to the floor. I had to insist. He wanted to let me off. There's nothing Dinsdale wouldn't do for you.
Microsoft will ignore them (Score:2)
It breaks down like this (Score:2)
Microsoft: OHHH SHIT!
what about... (Score:1)
Slashdot has crushed us. (Score:5, Funny)
(http://www.digitaltippingpoint.com/ | Last Journal: Tuesday October 09, @09:25PM)
Christian Einfeldt,
Producer, The Digital Tipping Point
Another Idea: Sue Microsoft's Customers First (Score:5, Insightful)
(http://itheresies.blogspot.com/ | Last Journal: Wednesday April 28 2004, @12:06AM)
1) Demand the business or government body to disclose copies of the anti virus logs for all of their desktops and laptops.
2) Generate a list of all the malware that
a) was cleaned up post infection ( the malware was actually executed and run ) AND
b) exploited vulnerabilities in Microsoft applications and operating system prior to an update fix being made available by Microsoft.
In comparison to MacOSX or Linux based desktop, Microsoft's desktop operating systems and Microsoft's desktop applications face a disproportionally higher risk of being "infected" with hostile malware. Just relying on third party Antivirus software to prop up a Microsoft flagging security record in no way puts you any closer to the level of security that a switch to another vendors desktop platform can provide. ( Just updating to Vista is no guarantee of better security in comparison to another vendors platform )
A business or government body is not taking due care with the private information they hold on the public if they continue to use Microsoft desktop OS environments or Microsoft desktop applications. That is your credit card data, banking details , health care info and social security information. If switching to Linux or MacOSX based desktops would greatly reduce the risk of further intrusion why should not organizations be "encouraged" to make the move.
If anyone's customers are at greater risk of being sued it is Microsoft's own customers that face the greatest risk.
"Sue me first !" (Score:2, Funny)
Polar Opposites (Score:3, Interesting)
Of course, "could" is just a possibility. If they actually ever went to court, software patents might be overturned in general, particular patents could be invalidated specifically, claims made with valid patents could be found non-infringing, the community would likely recode the claims found infringing to steer clear of the patent, AND Microsoft would still have to deal patent infringement countersuits launched in retaliation.
It is far better for them attempt to profit from vague fear than vague fact.
RE: put their lawyers where their mouth is. (Score:3, Funny)
Hm, it there something like this (Score:1)
(http://www.chiefbutz.info/)
a question (Score:1)
If I was... (Score:1)
(http://www.hormel.com/)
Microsoft's PR team is just awesome!! (Score:5, Insightful)
(http://www.digitaltippingpoint.com/ | Last Journal: Tuesday October 09, @09:25PM)
This is exactly my point, and it's why I offered to have Microsoft sue me. Microsoft is doing an excellent job of PR, and we need to draw public attention to two basic facts: 1) Microsoft's patent claims are unmeritorious; and 2) Microsoft is making vague patent threats because self-censorship is cheaper and more powerful than filing patent infringement lawsuits that only work in the US, if they work at all.
If you are not seeing the kinder, gentler IM donations on your screen, you can see them here on the Digital Tipping Point Flickr account, at least until Microsoft buys Yahoo, at which point you will see them only on our Google Picasa account:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/49947835@N00/5088135
http://www.flickr.com/photos/49947835@N00/5088135
http://www.flickr.com/photos/49947835@N00/5087770
http://www.flickr.com/photos/49947835@N00/5087826
Note to Microsoft counsel Brad Smith, Esq.: If you need documentary proof for your trial against me that I use Ubuntu GNU Linux, you can use this screenshot, which I am hereby vouching is a true and accurate shot depicting my Edgy Ubuntu desktop which, coincidentally, I am using to produce the Digital Tipping Point film. Among other things, the DTP film will suggest that Microsoft, like RCA and IBM before it, is facing an "innovator's dilemma" that will disrupt its current monopolistic business model. The funny thing is that the same market forces that propelled Microsoft to hammer IBM is now going to help IBM return the favor, this time using GNU Linux and OpenOffice.org. But I guess you knew that already, Sir Brad, because that is why you have been filing patents. You once worked at IBM. You learned well. Here is that proof you will want if you ever do file a case against me:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/49947835@N00/5087826
Whatch out Linux (Score:2)
(http://www.houghi.org/)
First they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
The Linux community has been laughing at us and our users for a long time. Now they seem to want to fight us. Just a bit of time and we win, Mr. Balmer.
Dmitry, spam me first (Score:3, Insightful)
I just had a good laugh at the expense of the people signed up for this. Either they don't care that their addresses are going to get harvested, or they're working under the delusion that obfuscation techniques like "jim at website dot com" can't be beaten by some very simple Perl.
Nobody mentioned US DOJ yet (Score:1)
Sue Microsoft for Slander ? (Score:1)
Don't think in terms of "total win" here.... (Score:2)
a) Microsoft whips it out and it does indeed kill open source as we know it by putting a Microsoft tax on everything.
b) The OSS crowd kicks MS in the patented family jewels and continues on it's merry way.
What most aren't considering is that MS is saying it has HUNDREDS of patent infringement claims. Each of which will need to be defeated. Chances are no court is going to do an "all or nothing" which is what OSS would want. They will have individual court cases on each. All MS has to do is pick the person who has the weakest case against a given patent claim and pursue them for JUST THAT ONE in order to give it credence, precedent, and ergo more power for the next person. Lather, rinse, and repeat that process a few hundred times. In the process they find which of their patents can stick and which can't. (If you think none can stick I would like to interest you in some lovely beach front property...and a bridge.)
So in the end what? MS loses 90% of the cases? That still leaves them with say 20-30 valid and legally proven patents. What happens if some of those are in the the cores of the operating systems? What happens if just ONE of those is on a feature that Linux desperately needs to be a viable competitor to windows?
MS is not wielding one big gun here people. They have a machine gun in both hands, and know they can afford to spray bullets into the crowd and only have a small percentage hit.
I did this once myself (Score:1)
I actually did this once [slashdot.org]. Back in the day, I released an xbox modchip design and basically dared Microsoft to come after me for it in Australia. (Unlike the suckers who Sony took down here in Oz, I wasn't stupid enough to be selling pirate software on the side so I was never in real danger)
Good luck to them all.
-M
You guys are making a big mistake (Score:2)
Now, Microsoft doesn't want to sue anyone. It'd be bad PR. They just want to make cross-licensing agreements, just as they and others do as a normal business practice. Microsoft, in particular, has made such deals with Apple, Sun, IBM, etc in the past. They want to hold up the big OSS companies (i.e. Red Hat) to the same standards.
They really couldn't care less about some hobbiest, or even some small company. Many of those small companies admit to violating patents, but pass that responsibility on to the user. For example, VideoLan admits that VLC violates MPEGLA patents, but say on their website that since they're an OSS non-profit developer, it's up to the users themselves to pay the MPEGLA license fees, in effect daring MPEGLA to sue VLC's users in order to get the fees. But Red Hat can't make the claim that they're a non-profit company, and would further receive horrible PR if they explicitly told their users to pay license fees themselves.
As I said, Microsoft doesn't want to sue, not because the patents are invalid, but because of the bad PR. But if you FORCE a suit, then the bad PR is on you, and you'll likely lose at least some of the 250 claims.
Here's an idea - let the big OSS companies act like grown ups, and license the patents in question. Problem solved.
Re:Microsoft Has To Sue (Score:2)
Re:Microsoft Has To Sue (Score:2)
(http://127.0.0.1/ | Last Journal: Thursday September 20, @12:52PM)
Re:Poker (Score:1)
If the open source community's smart about it, and if a competent first opponent is chosen (ie someone that will ask for help and put up a good defense), this could be the first catastrophic blow to the Windows monopoly.
Re:The memory comment was by Ken Olsen (Score:2)
I do however know the gp poster is correct, Gates never said the 640KB quote. So this does make the author seem like a OS religion nut or stupid.
If people want to find the evil at MS, they need to look beyond Gates and the years when he turned over business control to Ballmer and others along the way. The moral decline at MS can be directly linked to the efforts of the 'business' mindset of these individuals and not the ideals Gates himself originally pushed.
Do I think what MS is doing with patents and claims is wrong?
It is wrong to use this as a false business model. However, the more they are pushed and sued and shoved into a corner the more likely they will slap back, and it will NOT be pretty, as there are odds enough in their favor that even a few 'important' patents will be upheld and destroy the non-MS computing market.
People forget that MS has been around a long time, and they not only have patents but also prior art. Take something as simple as 'select and modify' where you highlight a word and change the font, size, etc. And even though today this seems intuitive for a WYSIWYG GUI, the concept orginated from the MS Word team and MS could rip this concept out of every GUI based OS and application out there if it was upheld.
Also when you have been slapped around by patents as much as MS has, there will come a time they will slap back. This uprising in MS started when they moved to put patents on everything they do in the late 90s after being hit with a ton of 'crap' lawsuits. And even though they have tons of patents, to date, MS has not slapped back with them. (And please no one quote the 1999 WMA lawsuit that was about reverse engineering code and not a patent claim as evidence.)
MS has enough patents to keep every major computer software busy, and even though it is not common to hear on Slashdot, sadly MS does innovate 'enough' that many of their patents are very valid.
Re:GPL 3.0 (Score:1)