Polish Fans Held By Police For Movie Translations

michuk writes "Nine people involved in a community portal Napisy.org were held for questioning by the Polish police forces this Wednesday. They will be probably be accused of publishing illegal translations of foreign movies (which is forbidden by Polish copyright law). Napisy.org website was shut down immediately afterwards by the German forces (since the servers were located in Germany). The service was the most popular Polish on-line portal where users were free to submit translated subtitles for popular movies. 'According to Polish copyright law any "processing" of others' content including translating is prohibited without permission. The people held (aged 20 - 30) were questioned on Wednesday and Thursday and then allowed to leave. In case of being accused of illegal publishing of copyrighted material, they can spend in jail up to 2 years (in the worst case).'"

Illegal thing...

If it is illegal to translate, the Polish police was right in arresting the guilty.
Rather than blaming them, the law needs to be changed.

Re:Illegal thing...

If it is illegal to translate, the Polish police was right in arresting the guilty.

to a certain degree, this makes sense. witness the 2003 illegal translation of harry potter and the order of the phoenix. it was so bad that the quality of the content was dramatically reduced... at one point the translator even wrote "Here comes something that I'm unable to translate, sorry."

so, the idea of having 'approved' translators can be necessary to preserve the integrity of the content.

my source for this is here [bbc.co.uk]

Re:Illegal thing...

Yeah, but what if it's the "state approved" translation that's horrible?

State what? State apporved what???

Did you even the article or this thread? Those translating need approval from the HOLDER of the copyright -- not the state. If it's "horrible", then I doubt the copyright holder will see much of a profit...

Re:Illegal thing...

Well, it ISN'T illegal to translate only text in Poland.

By judgement of Highest Court from 23.01.2003: The making of translation of word layer of audiovisual creation does not make processing of it as a whole. Thereby it can be spread without consent of the maker of original work. The translator have copyrights to translation.

So whole action was on illegal grounds. But they found many upon many pirated films in those folks' houses, so they will have jail or fines anyway.

Are you kidding?

This has to be a bad Polack joke. I bet they arrest signers for the deaf at concerts, too.

Polish and Germans co-operating for law enforc.?

... must be a cold day in hell today :)

Re:Polish and Germans co-operating for law enforc.

Vee vere invited, punch vas served. Check vit Poland.

Same type of laws in the US (and most countries)?

I would think that most countries classify translation as an derivative work. And surely the dialogue in a movie must be copyrightable. Only reason it hasn't happend in the US might be that foreign movies aren't as popular in the US and that MPAA mainly cares about homegrown material.

The following part of USC 17 Chapter 1 seems pretty clear to me (my emphasis):

A "derivative work" is a work based upon one or more preexisting works, such as a translation, musical arrangement, dramatization, fictionalization, motion picture version, sound recording, art reproduction, abridgment, condensation, or any other form in which a work may be recast, transformed, or adapted. A work consisting of editorial revisions, annotations, elaborations, or other modifications which, as a whole, represent an original work of authorship, is a "derivative work".

USC 17 Chapter 1:http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode17/ usc_sec_17_00000101----000-.html>

Couldn't they just...

upload the subtitles so the actual content isn't distributed?
Just a thought.

Wiki..

Would that mean a Polish person can't legally alter a Wikipedia entry? If I go and deface the entry for some leading Polish politicians could they be arrested if they fixed the page? That's really quite tempting. :twisted:

subscene.com is comprehensive

found it with the usual search engine.

Encounter

Officer: Ok, come along nice and easy and nobody will get hurt.
Fan: Geck, wo ist mein Auto?
Officer: Suspect appears to be armed with translated movie quotes, shoot on site!

Anime fansub

This sounds like it could have a big impact on the anime fansub culture in Poland. Fansubs distribute the entire video, seems like these people were just offering .sub texts.

Poland has nothign on the USA

In case of being accused of illegal publishing of copyrighted material, they can spend in jail up to 2 years (in the worst case).'

In the USA you get less jail time for phyiscally beating someone and taking their copyrighted material than publishing copyrighted material.

punishments fitting the crimes

2 years? For the equivalent of making closed caption files?

I am always reminded of the rules applicable to Commonwealth of Virginia employees when I was one.

An employee could be fired for one instance of a level 3 offense immediately. It took more than one level 2 offense to be fired.

Punching one's boss was a level 2. Sleeping on the job was a level 3.

Sleeping while driving a bus might be worse than punching a boss, but most of the time this seemed upside-down and backwards to me.

Software that helps to create subtitles on Linux?

On the topic of making your own subtitles: can someone point me to some software that helps you to create subtitles on Linux? I have looked, but haven't found anything really yet. I would expect something that works in conjunction with a video player like mplayer that helps to record (approximate) time stamps of when the subtitles should appear. Any hints?

Question:

Admittedly, I don't know much about the process of DVD subtitling, but I was under the impression that these were files distributed separately from the DVD rip. If that's all the site was supplying, isn't this akin to allowing the distribution of emulators but not the beloved ROM images associated with them?

Understandable sort of...

So these guys enabled people to be able understand what the characters are saying in a movie.

I can see why this would be a threat to Hollywood.

After all, who will want to see the bulk of these films when it becomes common knowledge that behind the beautiful people and gorgeous back drops are atrocious dialogue and paint-by-numbers plots.

UPDATE ON THE STORY!

Fortunately, Polish authorities didn't realize they locked these fans on the outside of the jail cells at the same time trapping the police inside and the fans just ended up walking away.

And your point is....?

You're amazed that Polamd has laws, and that the Polish police enforce those laws? Is that it?

I guess I understand the perspective, given that President Horehay is planning to reward the US's Mexican marine population (10 million, or so) with an amnesty.

nugget of the larger story playing out

the impact of the internet is that it turns what were previously audiences into publishers. now everyone is a bertelsmann or a metro goldwyn mayer, in their living room or den or study. the same sort of power dynamics was at work over the creation of the printing press: fedualism depended in part on the ignorance of the serfs, the inability to read. when they were freed form this ignorance due to the sudden cheap and wide availability of the printed word, all sorts of political dynamics changed, fomenting revolutions and evolutions i think that are still playing out in the world over 500 years later

well the internet frees people from being tied to distribution channels. and as with the printing press, there is an entrenched power that is losing because of this. of course movies, music, etc. is not going away because of the internet. but how movies and music are made and distribtued and how they make money is very definitely going to change, and there are real losers because of this. big (currently rich powerful, not for long) losers

but the internet was originally designed to route around damage in the event of nuclear war. compared to that, the "damage" that entrenched media interests will exert on the net is paltry, and easily routed around

there's no putting this genie back in the bottle

So any translation will violate copyrights?

So what is legal?
translate politician quote?
provide news after the CNN?
translate wikipedia entry?

Defense line: it wasn't direct translation, it was an interpretation of the dialogs.

How does this work with speech?

Does this mean i can go to Poland, call your non-english speaking mom a butt monkey peg-legged pirate (by singing it!), then sue you for translating it to her without my permission?

Things Haven't Changed

Punishment for translating? Looks like things haven't changed in Europe much. [greatsite.com]

but free translations is not piracy.... is it?

huh, hearing that they claim these folks face jail time is odd.... yes it is illegal to make available translations of copyrighted work...but copyright laws generally revolve around the money trail. If you make cash from translations, THAT would make you criminally liable, your own govts legal system can charge you criminally. But... and someone smarter can correct me... its that exchange of money that makes it a criminal offense, if No money changes hands then that puts you in a bit of a grey area...outside of Criminal liablity in your country...when that happens international copyright laws (that your country willingly agrees to) then allows for civil responsiblity, where the copyright holder of a foreign country has the right to sue you in your countries court of law...to FIRST prove your actions caused a loss...and then to recover damages. That these folks put stuff up for free...i would have thought, would have left them open to civil liablity at most, so why the threat of jail time? UNLESS...and seeing how the polish version of mpaa/riaa is involved, the criminal charges well stem from Piracy accusations not the translations. and seeing how free translations helps polish folks watch pirated vids....its easy to see why the "he Polish Society of the Phonographic Industry" aka mpaa/riaa would WANT translations to equal piracy.

polish movie translation situation

in case anybody wonders why this happens ... movies in poland are normally dubbed with ONE guy translating all the roles in the movie. i already hate the german dubbing. not lipsync. you may even see a totally different movie with german dubbing and their creative dubbing. .. etc etc ... but at least its professional and every actor gets its own german dubbing-actor. but the most horrible thing is an age 40-50 guy translating the movie by himself. its been like that forever in poland.

For now it's creation of unauthorized content...

but wait until people go to prison for the unauthorized
creation of content, that is the illegal creation of _original_
content. That is not as far fetched as you might think
considering there are many creative people out there
who have the skills and the technology. They might not
be able to create content as slick and polished as what
Hollywood turns out, but they might have a more compelling
story to tell. I think with anybody with a little imagination
can come up with a better plot than what they have turned out
as of late, such as the people captive in close proximity to
dangerous creatures scenarios (snakes on a plane, Alien,
Alien vs. Predator).

Well yeah!

Why should the Americans have all the fun?? Where does it say that they have a monopoly on perverted sex? It's a worldwide copyright orgy of joy and sadomasochism. Wheeee! Just be sure to keep the penicillin handy, if the stuff still works... Lots of nasty bugs out there...

Okay mods, do your stuff! Pegame duro! I'm getting excited already.

What you should understand about Poland

I have had the displeasure of living in Poland for the last four years. What you need to understand is that all foreign films/series released to VHS, DVD, and TV are dubbed into Polish BY ONE MAN. Yes, that's right. One guy does ALL the voices for ALL the actors in EVERY movie! If it is decided that a certain film will not be dubbed (and there are many of these), there will never be the possibility of watching this film by Polish-speaking people, unless they speak English. In the large cities, finding someone who speaks English is becoming easier as capitalism takes over, but let me add that when I arrived here four years ago, absolutely no one spoke English! I had to visit the local university's English department to find any. So in order to bring the people of Poland classics like Twin Peaks, and a whole slew of Hollywood and non-Hollywood films, there's a group that focuses on writing subtitles to these films and series. It's basically something anyone can contribute to, and it's just like the Polish police to shut it down.

Every good thing that happens in this country gets shut down. It's completely hypocritical and they are targeting the wrong people. I live in a city of around 700 000 inhabitants and there are eight copy shops within 500 metres in any direction of my flat (I don't even live in the centre). I can go out to any of these copy shops and have a copyrighted textbook photocopied for about 3 cents (US) a page. Some copy shops even keep a library of texts that one can look through and order. Anything you want you can get, whatever subjects you're studying. One guy even has a website where you can order copied books beforehand, pay by credit card, and pick them up at your leisure! Most of the students here in Poland have never owned a real textbook, everyone buys photocopies. While it's true that many Polish students live off of less than 100$US a month (the average salary here is about 300$US a month or 5zl an hour so their parents don't have much to give them), the copy shops are making their living off of copyright infringement. Any day of the week, one can also go down to a special market and purchase bootlegged DVDs, CDs, software, and games. The police don't do much about these people, either.

In order to combat book photocopying, the government started a tax on all photocopies of 3gr a page (about 1 cent US). Now all photocopies are about 4 cents a page, and the tax goes not to the publishers or companies being infringed upon, but to the government. I think it's something like the tax the Canadian government puts on blank computer media. I think it's ridiculous. In typical Polish style, rather than identify the problem and deal with it, they do something completely stupid. For two years after I moved here, there was dog shit all over the pavement/sidewalks wherever people walked. You had to really look where you were going, because you would step in it. Rather than teach people to curb their dogs, or give fines for not picking up after animals, they hired people to go around every morning and clean the sidewalks of dog shit! They need to think about their labour laws and how much people are being paid (in an EU country, no less!), but instead they worry about some young people doing the people of Poland a service by writing subtitles for those who don't know English (or Turkish, or Greek, or Hindi).

In Soviet Russia...

...the movies translate you.

department of redundancy department

They will be probably be accused of publishing illegal translations of foreign movies (which is forbidden by Polish copyright law).

I applaud the Poles on their consistency, but I think it's a bit superfluous to declare that illegal translations are forbidden under law... after all, it would be quite an oxymoron for an illegal translation to be permissible...

Germans

website was shut down immediately afterwards by the German forces

"Ve have vays of making you not talk.

Berne Convention

International law signed by Poland (and the United States) states that:

Authors of literary and artistic works protected by [the Berne Convention] shall enjoy the exclusive right of making and of authorizing the translation of their works throughout the term of protection of their rights in the original works. [wikisource.org]

So, yes, even our beloved ROM fan translation community is technically acting outside the law, but they're not sued out of existence because it's not worth the publisher's paying their lawyers when they have no intention of selling an English-language version of these games to begin with.

...Shiver..

Napisy.org website was shut down immediately afterwards by the German forces

Am I the only one that got a bit of a shiver when they read about German Forces immediately shutting down Poles.

Est Verboten!! ]yikes[

-GiH

Polish IDG uses fansubs in their DVD products

Legal or not - fansubs are being recognized even by such conglomerates as International Data Group (http://idg.com/www/homenew.nsf/home?readform [idg.com]). IDG Poland released Ghost In The Shell, Akira -http://kiosk.idg.pl/sklep_artykul.asp?KP=ANIME+++ +++++++ [kiosk.idg.pl]- and GITS Stand Alone Complex series with fansubs as on of the subtitles option. If fansubs hadn't existed before there would be nothing to release. But before the official release fansubs were illegal - catch 22 until we change the IP law.

Re:Uh... okay...

How is this story "News for nerds" or "stuff that matters?" File it under the "Polish crime blotter" category and not "Your rights online" because clearly the Polish don't have these rights.

The translated subtitles were published online. You realize that the "Your" in "Your rights online" doesn't just refer to you, specifically, right?

Re:Uh... okay...

On the surface there's not much to the story, but look a little deeper.

They were releasing translated subtitle files to be used with videos. Presumably, since they needed translating, these were foreign discs. Possibly imported, sure, but the implication is likely that people need these subs to enjoy material not released by the media cartels for that region, and therefore instigates piracy: the favorite bogeyman.

Of course, since the big companies couldn't be bothered to translate it and release it in that region they're not losing any money at all and piracy wouldn't have any impact. UNLESS they want to keep the options open and release localized version later.

Now we're in "region coding" territory. A technique the industry uses for no technical reasons* other than to lock customers in to buying movies at the maximum prices possible.

These weren't people making knockoff translations and selling them in the face of Polish-localized content. This was simply providing a service so people could expand their horizons a little.

I suppose Babelfish is illegal in Poland, too. Ha-rumph.

* one could argue that the content could be mastered for differences in NTSC/PAL timings and color spaces, but I'd say this if the content player can output in varied formats, the technical limitation is gone.

Re:Uh... okay...

Um, because it's Illegal in the US as well?

Re:Uh... okay...

You know that Slashdot is viewed worldwide, not just in the US. (And, yes, I'm an American).

Re:This is international copyright law

Poland can break treaties any time the like.

Whether they have the will to do so is another matter. It's not like Elliot Ness is going to bust down the doors of the whomever runs the place over there.

Re:Uh... okay...

I suppose the angle here is that "gee, it sucks that what we Americans think is fine and dandy is illegal in Poland."

Pretty much, with one exception - We don't have that right in the US, either. But we damned wellshould.



If so, here are two choices for remedy: lobby for a change of law in Poland or convince Dub-ya to invade Poland and impose American law.

Presuming the Polish goverment, much like our own in the US, doesn't give two shakes of a rat's ass about what the plebes want, you missed the single most effective (and obvious, since it applies here) solution: Civil disobedience.



Certain all-too-alienable rights, as humans,we should all have, regardless of nationality. The US constitution enumerates a few (but not all) of them. Saying what amounts to "they broke the law, end of story" amounts to nothing less than passively accepting a tyranny of legal fictions.