MySpace is Free Speech, Case Overturned 242
eldavojohn writes "The Indiana Court of Appeals has ruled that a judge violated the constitution after placing a juvenile on probation for an expletive laden MySpace entry on the principal. The court decided that the juvenile's free speech rights had been unconstitutionally revoked, and the original judge had suppressed politically motivated free speech since the comments were directly attacking school policy. I think we are starting to see a fine line develop online as it did with print — bullying & slander are punishable while we have to allow criticism of ideas no matter how harsh it is."
Students Not Second-Class Citizens (Score:5, Informative)
- Greg
No different from many other scenarios (Score:2)
The difference with myspace etc is that these are clearly soap-boxing sites where people are encouraged and expected to express opinions.
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On a similar note, I've always wondered if it could be possible to avoid a court appearance due to the fact that you must check all firearms (er, weapons -- they took my Swiss Army Knife once) with the courthouse guards. Can the State compel you to surrender your arms if you have not been convicted of anything yet? A nice legal chicken/egg problem.
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Does the phrase contempt of court [wikipedia.org] mean anything to you?
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The court belongs to the people, not the government.
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1. Create economic distress
2. Argue for a welfare state
3. Tax
4. ???
5. Profit
very few guns needed
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Re:Students Not Second-Class Citizens (Score:4, Interesting)
Of course this was in rural Georgia (Athens-Clarke County) sometime in the 50's.
Anyhoo, it's not that you don't have a right to bear arms as a minor, just that those rights are severely restricted. And ownership is usually flat out (not that it kept any of my friends from "owning" a
Re:Students Not Second-Class Citizens (Score:5, Interesting)
FID? Flight ID? Free Induction Decay? Financial Institutions Duty? Functional Interface Drawing? Oh wait, there it is, Firearms Identification.
Guess what? FID is generally only required when purchasing a gun. SOME states require that you have a license to own a firearm, but not most.
In California [ca.gov], "A person must be at least 18 years of age to purchase a rifle or shotgun. To buy a handgun, a person must be at least 21 years of age, and either 1) possess an HSC plus successfully complete a safety demonstration with the handgun being purchased or 2) qualify for an HSC exemption."
It's worth mentioning that no minor without their majority can actually be said to own property anyway. Their parents/guardians can take it away at any time, so it's not really theirs. So the law focuses on providing access to minors. California law doesn't make it illegal to provide access to a firearm to a minor, but you can be guilty of a felony if a minor uses your gun to commit a crime.
Everyone surrenders their right to bear arms on a school campus except for active law enforcement, or military during the execution of orders. Even if you have a concealed carry permit it is not lawful to bring a gun to a school. This is interesting because at one time (IIRC, up until the early 1900s) California law explicitly protected your right to carry a gun on public property. That means schools, courthouses, et cetera.
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Interesting...I've never lived anywhere where I'd heard of a Firearms ID.
Granted, most of my firearms purchases have been from private individuals (some at gun shows), some relatives, etc....so, there is not waiting time, no requirement for ID, etc....and best of all...NO RECORD.
The only time in my life I've ever registered any kind of firearm was when I got my concealed carry years back, and in AR, they did require you to list the weapons on that li
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In California you must have a handgun safety cert or an exemption thereof to purchase a handgun, regardless of where it is purchased, and all handgun transfers must be reported to the state.
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I must have missed this one acronym school....what is FID?
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You surrender your right to bear arms by being a minor.
Well damn. I guess we've come a long way since my days shooting rifles and shotguns in Boy Scouts.
I don't think anyone would argue that being allowed to use a gun under supervised conditions would in any way meet the requirements of the 2nd amendment. The point to the amendment was to specifically allow for individuals to possess weapons for use when a militia was called upon by local or state government (an idea which is a bit obsolete, but none the less, requires that you actually own a gun).
Put another way, the right to "bear arms" does not mean the right to use weapons, but to own them. Most states
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Minors don't really own any property unless they gain their legal majority through a legal procedure in the courts!
If you are a minor, your parents can take away any of your property, legally, at any time! Period, end of story.
This is one reason why we have things like trust funds. Let's say you have a billion dollars and want to give a million of
Story sounds familiar... (Score:2)
Re:Students Not Second-Class Citizens (Score:5, Informative)
Bong Hits 4 Jesus (Score:2)
If nothing else, it's enormously entertaining just to hear the Supremes uttering the phrase "Bong Hits 4 Jesus".
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4155/i s_20060830/ai_n16693097 [findarticles.com]
Famous Scumbag Lawyer Ken Starr doesn't have any more of a chance here than he did on his other big case a few years ago, since there are plenty of prior rulings protecting students' free speech rights off-campus:
http: [findlaw.com]
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Re:Students Not Second-Class Citizens (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Students Not Second-Class Citizens (Score:5, Informative)
It's rediculous how as a 16 year old you can drive a car and pay taxes but can't vote. It is taxation without representation in my opinion and that is why the founders of this country took up arms and fought back. Ill stick with posting to internet forums myself but the whole thing is kind of rediculous.
Students are absolutly second class citizens. Remember also that many high school students are 18 years old and they still have the same lack of rights.
Re:Students Not Second-Class Citizens (Score:5, Interesting)
It's rediculous how as a 16 year old you can drive a car and pay taxes but can't vote. It is taxation without representation in my opinion and that is why the founders of this country took up arms and fought back. Ill stick with posting to internet forums myself but the whole thing is kind of rediculous.
It's not that 'rediculous' in light of the fact that that right has been traded for special treatment. If you are mature enough to vote you should be mature enough to give up your special legal consideration -- in other words, no more child-labour protection, no more child-abuse laws, no more watered-down juvenile courts, no more watered-down juvenile punishments, no more reduced fair for government services, no more exemption from conscription or jury duty, no more obligation for your parents to take care of you, no more protection from prosecution, &c.
I'd be in favour of giving 16-year-olds the right to vote as long as they're OK with giving up all that stuff.
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Age (Score:5, Funny)
I am 16 years old...
Quick back of envelope calculation: I joined slashdot in late 1999 and got #316896. I think membership is now up to 1.1 million. Assuming (perhaps wrongly) a linear rate of member accrual, I think that puts your number of 566938 at about five years ago... which would mean you started reading slashdot when you were 11. That rocks! :)
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. I am not sure if that is why founders of your country ever took up arms and fought back, but if that was the case, I look forward to you joining the war on behalf of the people in American Samoa [brisbanetimes.com.au] who have been paying taxes for decades, but don't get a vote on who should be president, despite the POTUS being their head of state and drafting them into the Vietnam war.
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You are actually represented. And you are guaranteed the ability to vote after you turn 18*. If you are mature enough to vote, which you may or may not be. (I may or may not be, for that matter, but 18 at least guarantees a percentage is mature enough.) Now imagine if all you classmates, with their celebrity loving subculture, had the same right to vote. Imagine what would happen if Madonna (Paris Hilton is too young) got into the White House.
That's why there is
Re:Students Not Second-Class Citizens (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Students Not Second-Class Citizens (Score:5, Insightful)
I'll leave it as an exercise for the reader to determine what this means within the context of this discussion.
Re:Students Not Second-Class Citizens (Score:5, Informative)
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I guess it depends on the job. I made pretty good money back in my teen days working...'79-'81.
I worked my way up to head bus boy at a middle end restaurant..prime rib and the like. My clock hours were good, plus the tips at the end of the night from the waiters (you couldn't wait tables back then if you we
Re:Students Not Second-Class Citizens (Score:5, Insightful)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minor_(law) [wikipedia.org]
Re:Students Not Second-Class Citizens (Score:5, Interesting)
I think the problem is that the U.S. legal system lacks the framework for dealing with anything besides two types of things: individuals, and property. Either you're an individual, and have rights, or you're property, and belong to somebody else.
There have always been questions as to the status of certain things: slaves, for example, were traditionally property, but later became individuals; animals, who arguably have certain independent characteristics, are still just property; and the current abortion debate is mostly an argument as to whether a fetus is an individual, or merely a woman's property.
The track record of the legal system at dealing with the grey areas isn't too great (cf. "3/5ths compromise," or the now-ridiculous limits on exactly how hard you can beat your wife). The solution here seems to be to clarify the status of minors as one or the other.
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In other words, either you're an individual with rights, or you're a nobody with no rights. It's this kind of thinking (plus the current atmosphere of rampant paranoia) that makes me very nervous about crossing the border because, as far as I know, I have no rights as a visitor to the US.
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I wish i would have known this. Because that means i can shoot you, beat you, steal from you, arrest you. Now i just need to know which people are visitors to the US so i can take advantage of them having no rights.
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Do animals deserve the right to vote? Should elementary school students be allowed to get married? Are children property of their parents and should they be allowed to be beaten at will? If you can'
Re:Students Not Second-Class Citizens (Score:4, Insightful)
In a perfect world, the kids parents would have blistered their asses, and this would not be necessary. But in a perfect world, parents wouldn't sue the school system because their kid is a fuck-up, either.
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I would not rather live in your "ideal" democracy.
Re:who gives a shit (Score:4, Insightful)
Please read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inalienable_rights [wikipedia.org]. If you do not agree to one of the founding ideas of our country, you are welcome to the door.
Re:who gives a shit (Score:5, Insightful)
You were clearly flamebaited.
From your link:
BTW, if someone disagrees to the principle our diest founding fathers stated, they are welcome to do so. Expressing ones opinion is no reason to show them the door. In fact, it is directly against what you think you are fighting for.
Truly ironic.
doG oN!
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Cheers.
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PS - I am a flaming liberal and I understand that we can disagree on the extent and range of what free speech (and other rights) should be protected from government inference. But if you don't believe that people should have a right to a trial and a grand jury, or should be justly compensated for a governmental taking, or should be treated equally under
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Re:who gives a shit (Score:5, Insightful)
Except when we get in trouble. Then we will be tried as adults, and receive the maximum sentence for our heinous crimes against the ruling elite.
Seriously though, I have seen teenagers arrested, tried, (and punished) as adults for ticky tack offences you couldn't sucessfuly charge an adult for. Underage drinking (and voting) are punishable by law, but killing and dying is okay if you are in a combat zone.
But you are right; teenagers are a drain on society, along with the poor and disenfranchised.
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Glad it was overturned, but... (Score:3, Insightful)
The inefficiency of real justice is aggravating.
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Good! (Score:5, Insightful)
I still remember what it was like to be a teenager, and one of the most frustrating things about it is the feeling of being disenfranchised. I don't think personal attacks and bullying are okay, and I recognize that the Internet is being used more and more frequently for this type of activity, but teenagers still need to feel like they have a voice.
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Result: a citizenry who is used to having no rights, and therefore puts up no real fight when they are taken away as adults.
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Moreover, I can't see your system working at all. If you truely believe in those ideals, enforcing the opposite on others is morally reprehensible.
A small dose of optimism. (Score:5, Insightful)
The original case accused the girl in question of identity theft, because the page she posted on was supposed to be the Principal's page (it was created by someone else entirely). When all that was said and done, they had to save face somehow, and so prosecuted the person and declared her delinquent for being "obscene". Counter damages perhaps? I would sooooooooo go after them for that.
The rant was also not about the principal, but rather about school policy regarding body piercings. Oh how many times I was suspended for criticizing school policy, and faculty for stupidity. Although in some cases, motivating the student body to protest can be helpful. My high school once told us we couldn't bring our purses to school. 2 days of every girl in the school using tampons for hair rollers fixed that one. On the other hand, those of us who organized that, were suspended for a week for insubordination.
I love seeing cases like this stick it to the man. It's sad that the Constitution so often (aside from being trampled daily) doesn't seem to apply to anyone under the age of 18. With the advent of the internet, however, and online social societies of their own, teens seem to be able to fight for a few more rights, and correct a few more injustices than they were able to even just 10 years ago. That's a great thought. Bolstered by victories now, perhaps the next generation will be less inclined to just roll over while their rights are trampled on than the current generation.
Time will tell.
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Re:A small dose of optimism. (Score:5, Interesting)
After 2 days the faculty caved, and let us carry our purses again (though they had to stay in our lockers, because then we wouldn't be able to shoot up the school with the guns we were all carrying in them). Then they started finding out who organized it, and suspended us for insubordination. About 3 weeks later, there was a sit-out at the school, which didn't end well (not for those of us organizing it).
Yea, I used to be a big pusher for people's rights not getting trampled. But after becoming so disillusioned in those years, then my stint in the Army, and current political happenings, it's enough that I'm willing to make /. posts.
It's sad really.
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All I can say is "beautiful, kudos to you all, and a large stinking rotten egg for the administration." Sometimes bureaucrats need to be taught their place.
-b.
Safe Schools Act (Score:5, Interesting)
The Safe Schools Act is to school age children what the Patriot Act is to the common citizenry.
Decided on the Indiana Constitution (Score:5, Informative)
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IIRC that was because the regulation of certain substances was seen as falling under the Interstate Commerce Clause. The Interstate Commerce Clause trumps pretty much every question of states' rights, and is the driving force behind a lot of the growth of federal power. If the actions of this kid were in violation of a federal law, and that federal law was related, however tangentially, to interstate commerce, the outcome may have been very different.
No, MySpace is not Free Speech. (Score:5, Interesting)
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I think that's exactly what the case said. The Court considered at least one of the girl's postings:
Hey you piece of greencastle shit.
What the fuck do you think of me [now] that you can['t] control me? Huh?
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Right! But it's not what the slashdot headline says! That's my point. There was no finding that MySpace is free speech, and that wasn't even really being discussed, per se. What the court is talking about is whether free speech is free speech... and the MySpace piece of the puzzle is really something of a red herring, and was just there to stoke flames here.
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I am thinking that you are relying too much on the title of an article to imply it's meaning. Slashdot titles are limited in characters so submitters have to be as brief as possible. Sometimes being brief changes the meaning but there isn't much choice. You should RTFA. All it is saying is that anything posted or said on MySpace has as much protection as anything said in real life. Of course it includes the same limitations like libel and treason and harassment. Th
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OK then, how about:
Student's MySpace Rant Ruled Free Speech
Probation Voided - Student's Blog Ruled OK
Court: Student's Blog Rant Ugly But Legal
Court Finds For Student In Fight Over Speech
etc.
I'm not talking about the article, I'm talking about the slashdot editor's obvious flame provocati
Childrens rights... (Score:4, Insightful)
-We have and do prosecute children/teens as adults.
-Spend social security.
-Go to war.
-Enact laws on education. (including college funding and rules).
-Many states allow driving at 16.
-Some states consider 17 to be a legal adult.
The decisions we make can have very big impacts and yet we give no voice to children/teens? Why??? What could we do??
-Lower the voting age.
-Create children/teen lobbyist or activist groups.
I have yet to hear a good argument why we can't make these things happen. Why young adults/children/teens can't have more of a say.
If we can prosecute a teen as an adult then they should have a voice on how the laws impact their lives.
I welcome ideas...
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While I don't necessarily disagree with that (I do strongly disagree with raising the voting age though), do you actually think that most adults have a clue? Yeah, I'm sure some are competent (as some minors are competent), but a lot of them (the think-of-the-children, bible-belt, "I have the right to be a lazy American" people) are just as clueless as they were when they were
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Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
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Actually, no. The appeals court ruled it was a violation of the Indiana Constitution, not the federal Constitution, a matter on which the court expressly did not rule.
On another note (Score:2, Interesting)
From MTV News:
One of the students named in the suit, Justin Layshock, 19, allegedly created an account in Trosch's name, in which he's described as "a big steroid freak" and "too drunk to remember" his birthday. The profile also suggested that Trosch smoked marijuana and kept a keg of beer behind his desk.
A different profile, created by student Thomas Cooper, also claimed Trosch was a fan of pornography, while a third, the work of brothers Brendan and Christopher Gebhart, depicted more graphic activities.
The fake profiles "went far and beyond what you would see on a bathroom wall in a school," Trosch's lawyer, John E. Quinn, told the AP. He added that the person behind a fourth MySpace profile, which he called "the most graphic and lurid of them all," has not yet been identified, but would be a party to the action if and when the person is.
Although I am for freedom of speech, this looks more like diffamation, I am sure that the myspace page about this girl has nothing to do with this case.
Although it is not related, I was wondering if you would agree that creating such a fake page could be categorized as diffamation and should be condemned, which is what Zonk [slashdot.org] is saying at the top of this page.
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Well, if it was obviously and patently fake, it could be considered a satire, and thus protected as free speech. Even if it was defamation, defamation is a _civil_ offense, not one that an adult would draw probation for. A lawsuit verdict or an injunction, sure; but not a criminal's sentence.
-b.
It's not that way in my state. (Score:3, Interesting)
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Delinquency charges == bullshit (Score:4, Insightful)
Catch-all laws like that annoy me, even if they were originally well meant.
-b.
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Girl Smarter Than Principal (Score:2, Funny)
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You may respond "what restrictive adult life" but its true. We adults may appear more free than you (and in many respects we are), but we are burdened with self-imposed restrictions, societally imposed restrictions, burdens of responsibility etc that can strongly curtail that apparent freedom we have.
I recall that I was frustrated by visions of adults having the "Freedom" to drink, drive (not necessarily together), and all sorts of other fun stuff that I couldn't do. But, you know what, now that I'm an adult, I realise that those are largely the only freedoms we have that are worth anything. Free speech be damned, give me a beer and a woman!
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Moderated: +1 / Sad but True.
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Frankly, alot of high-school was learning to fit into a mold (both for your peers and teachers), and following rules. Yes, to a certain extent you have to deal with those kinds of rules in "real life," but frankly I feel much more free and empowered now as an adult than I e
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Oh, and your comments are spot on IMO.
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and, if you are anything like me and some of my close friends, no matter how hard you try, no matter what you do, in whatever quantities (!) you cannot reclaim that feeling you had.
There is this certain feeling you are missing and it has nothing to do with the clothes you wore, the
Re:Good (Score:4, Insightful)
Adult life restrictive? I don't get how anyone can possibly be nostalgic about teenage life. It is all obligations and no rewards. You have far more responsibilies and obligations as a teen than as an adult. Basically as an adult I have to go to work and pay my bills (and this time of year, my taxes). And my bills actually get paid automatically, I just need to insure that my bank account stays topped off, so really doing my job is my only responsibility.
That would be the job that I can leave anytime I want if I find a job that's more to my liking. The one that I choose because I liked to technical and work/lifestyle aspects of. The one that pays me huge gobs of money because I once threatened to leave and work for the competition.
As a teenager, you have to go to school (under threat of criminal prosecution), do all your homework, do whatever chores your parents randomly assign, go to whatever lame weddings/reunions/family trips/etc. your parents randomly force on you. And for this you get no pay, own no property (except what your parents charitably give you, which they take away randomly) and you have to live with uncofortable relationships with your family that you can't leave or renegotiate in a house of their choosing in a city chosen for thier work/lifestyle ideals.
Screw all that! In the 16+ years since I turned 18, life just gets better and better. I live in a house that I chose, in a location that I chose, maintain what relationships I feel are worthwhile (which includes my parents, its much easier to live with them when I don't have to literally live with them), clean my home when I feel the mess bothers me more than the effort to clean it, own whatever property is valuable enough to me; all paid for by the job I chose under the conditions that I negotiated (and re-negotiated) from a position of strength.
I just don't see anything good about life as a teenager, which was living under constant threat of random punishment for not doing meaningless things you should never have to do in the first place. And getting nothing for it.
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There are many reasons for this, but I will leave that up to you to look up.
You think your restricted now? Wait until you relize that in the corporate world, you would be fired for expressing your negative opinion aboput your work place outside of work.
They would call it that, but you would still be put out of work.
Why do people tolerate it? Because they have people like you to raise.
Here are the 2 most important lesson you can learn a
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Im not sure I agree that minors shouldn't get "adult rights." sure there are some things that they do not get. The right to vote, to drink, to drive ect... but should they lack freedom of speech? what about religion? assembly?
I dont know... I don't see anything in the constitution that implies that these rights should be restricted to adults. One could make the argument that the right to bear arms does not apply to minors due to the militia clause but I'm not so sure about the others.
What was the age of
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you are required to obey your teachers at school thats for sure. You have to be there by law (unless you go to a private school) and you are not allowed to be disruptive. I agree with all of this and I have no problem with it... but I really dont think that applies to off campus activites. posting stuff on myspace about how your schools administration sucks or holding a "bong-hits-for-jesus" poster off school ground should probably not apply.
Im not so sure about the parents thing... I mean, they can puni
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