Google Aids Indian Goverment Censorship

An anonymous reader writes "Google's Orkut has made a deal to provide IP addresses of posters of content deemed objectionable by Bombay police. They object, among others, to posts against certain Indian personalities, young women admiring Indian mobsters, and, amazingly, "anti-Indian words" (!)."

Hey!

Finally, something we can be happy about getting outsourced...sorta.

here it goes: Beef is good

....Whats that knocking at my door?

Re:here it goes: Beef is good

Thats the local beef-vendor.
It would have been the police had you started a community on the lines of "OMG! PaKiStan is teh roxxorz.. iNdIa is komplete sucks"

"Don't be evil"??

I'm usually in the "whatever, they have to do business" crowd with google, but this isn't in any grey area, it's downright black.

Who sets the rules, then?

Who sets the rules, then? Did Google do a referendum or even a poll and determine that, indeed, the vast majority of Indians vote for "we want to be censored, thank you very much"?

Now I'll admit that I have no experience with India or Indians, but I do have some first hand experience with the USSR (back when it was called that way) and eastern europe, and have co-workers from all over that area. Plus some from various arab countries. And I can tell you that so far I've yet to see major differences. People are people everywhere. Yeah, there are cultural and education differences all right, and even culture clashes when you put people from different cultures together, but at the end of the day most people want the same things.

Even the exceptions are, strangely enough, not much different from our or your exceptions. E.g., if you want to point out some of the religious fundamentalist nutcases from some area as somehow representative, I can point you to religious fundamentalist nutcases in the west (e.g., southern USA) which are strangely similar. For every Khoran-thumping "we should bomb America/Israel/whatever for Allah" nutcase, there'll be a Bible-thumping "we should nuke the Middle East for Jesus" nutcase on the other side.

Even if you want to point out some resistance to new ideas in some areas, I can point out at people ranting about the "good old days" and rejecting the new in the West too. There is the same resistance to change everywhere, some just got a head start in accepting it. But if you let them have what they want, overall all societies tend towards the same thing. E.g., for all the Party's moaning about western decadence, China tended to adopt Western consumerism and other supposed bad habits very very quickly when it had a half a choice.

Etc. As I was saying, I've yet to see any evidence that people are fundamentally different anywhere.

And more importantly, to get back to Freedom Of Speech, I've yet to see any evidence that people from any area actually cheer at the idea of having the police watching over their shoulder.

Sure, there'll be plenty who want to tell _you_ what you can and can't say. (Same as in the west.) But they'll tend to not appreciate when someone tells _them_ what they can and can't say.

And sure, group-think exists everywhere. Doubly so if you can bully them into an "if I say I disaggree, the others will think I'm a pervert/criminal/whatever and ostracize me" state of mind. You have them chest-thump and proclaim any idiocy just to seem like popular/responsible/whatever members of the community. (Again, in the west too.) But again, move them out of that environment, and they'll tend to snap out of it in no time.

In fact, the funny thing is, a lot (maybe most) cultural clashes with immigrants tend to be centered around their snapping out of it too fast and too far. People coming from areas where they have to watch out what they say or do all the time, often seem to turn to a sort of a "woohoo, here I can say and do _everything_ I want to" state of mind, and proceed to appear thoroughly impolite and disruptive to the locals. If you will, they end up appreciating the whole freedom ideas a bit too much, and not knowing where to stop exercising them.

So based on those impressions I'll go and say that the freedoms probably _are_ universal truths that all humans can appreciate.

Re:"Don't be evil"??

You want to play in India, you play by their rules.

If your motto is "don't be evil" and India's rules require you to be evil, then you shouldn't want to play in India. Otherwise you're an evil hypocrite.

Shouldn't play?

So, should they stop their UK operations as well, since UK is a 'surveillance society'? Should they close their French and German departments, because these countries censor pro-Nazi and revisionist websites, among other things? Should they abandon Russia because Putin is building his 'vertical of power' with sometimes questionable methods? Should they say goodbye to the United States as well because the US is the world's largest aggressor, and has killed millions of foreign civilians in the past 50 years? FACE IT. All governments are evil. That's not good, and that's not bad: it's a fact of life. A government cannot behave like a Barbie-playing girl. Governments are there because they have might, and as soon as they lose their might, they are displaced by a revolt or an invasion.

well

Well if Google doesnt bow to the Indian government they will lose money. The "dont be evil" mantra would seem to contradict this move.

Re:well

Well if Google doesnt bow to the Indian government they will lose money. The "dont be evil" mantra would seem to contradict this move.

Quite right. Which means, by extension, "don't be evil" and "IPO" are a bit at odds. Pulling out of India over this means lost shareholder revenue. Lost shareholder revenue means lawsuits. Lawsuits mean suffering...

So yeah, I would say "don't be evil" died a while ago.

Re:well

Come on guys...If there are sites like Hail Hitler or Long live Osama or any of the creepy fellows wont u like those to be blocked...

No, I don't want them to be blocked. They have as much right to say "Hail Hitler" as I have to say "Hail Linux." You can't censor somebody because you disagree with their opinion.

Or r u supporters of neo-nazis...

I'm a supporter of their right to free speech.

May be some assholes will try and glorify the WTC attack. Then what happens lets see *100rabh ducks*

Somebody already glorified the WTC attacks. There have been at least a couple movies...

Bombay police?

It's *Mumbai*, you anti-Indian clod!

Non-authoritative answer:
Name: slashdot.org
Address: 66.35.250.150

Mumbai

It hasn't been named Bombay in years.

Then again, that's not how you spell "Government" either.

Also - read the end of the not-so-fine article. Yes, undoubtedly there's evil at play. On the other hand, if something illegal was done (the police were involved, one can only sadly assume the 'posting of picture with derogatory comments' was of an illegal nature over there), there shouldn't be any reason for Orkut protecting the suspect perp. Though filing a subpoena for the information (thus not bypassing the judicial system) would be much preferable. /no-karma anon

Business Sense

Great news. The sooner Google acts like a real corporation the better.

It's time to stop this "Don't be evil" BS and get on with its obligation to its shareholders.

Having said that, if DBE actually does bring in more profit, or BE brings down profit, Google is then expected to DBE.

In short, act like a business and protect the bottom line, not teh "line".

Re:Business Sense

"Business" is no excuse for immorality.

Nailing them...

Interesting that the article puts such a positive spin on the ability of the cops to "nail" their suspects in this way.

That's nothing!

Thats nothing. Read below the comments on the article, where police blame Orkut for helping organize a party where drugs were used.

Seriously. Orkut used to organize party = Drugs used at party = Orkut bad? I don't think so.

I thought India was atleast a pretend democracy?

Re:That's nothing!

"I thought India was atleast a pretend democracy?"

India happens to be the world's largest democracy, their voting system is simpler and more secure than what can be found in recent US elections.

Sigh...

Does Google leadership believe that "Do no evil" "Obey all laws"?

Or have they simply abandoned "Do no evil" in favor of, "Do not much evil, and even then only do it if you want to gain a foothold in countries with rapidly growing economies."?

Not another China

I've defended Google's China policy, but it seems like they're just flat-out in the wrong on this one (assuming, that is, that we're getting the whole story here.) I am having a very hard time seeing what greater good is served here. In China they are withholding information their users want. Not great but they are at least servicing the users' requests, just not as fully as one would prefer. Here they are giving out information their users presumably expected to remain private, in direct opposition to their users' intentions. Bad Google.

Goddammit Google

What part of "Do No Evil" is difficult to understand?

Maybe you should hire a couple linguists to complement your thousands of engineers.

Standby for Google Spin (in Beta!)

What about Sergei's recent public hand wringing that Google's deal with the Chinese Communist Party was a mistake?

http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/01/27/18 39238 [slashdot.org]

Shows how disingenuous that hand wringing was.

On the bright side, at least Google aren't just cutting deals with totalitarian governments. They're now making political censorship deals with democratically-elected governments too! A Googlestroika, if you will.

Did Indians forgot to put something like;

No law shall be made abridging the freedom of speech or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

in their constitution?

Expectations

Expect a similar move from the Turkish government [slashdot.org] soon.

This Story Will Be Banned...

For using the anglicised colonial name for Mumbai. The fact that 'Bombay' is not found in the article makes this transposition appear to be a purposeful and hostile action.

Other sources?

Can anybody find sources other than the Indian Express reporting on this? If the article is accurate, my overall impression of Google will be substantially decreased, but I'd like to make sure the information is solid. Right now the only sources I can find are the Indian Express or other sources re-reporting it.

The real Google corporate motto...

"Don't be evil...

...in the eyes of our customers, especially government customers"

Kinda reminds me of George Orwell's Animal Farm, where the revolutionary sheep are initially chanting "four legs good, two legs bad", but after the corruption has set in, and the head animals are enjoying human comforts, the chant changes to "four legs good, two legs better".

Im scared..

This move by Google has left me really worried. Orkut has become extremely popular in India, and politicians and the Government are not happy with it. The reason : people creating communities which they feel are 'anti-Indian', fake profiles, etc. Every day here i see stories about how a police complaint, or a law-suit is filed against such an orkut community. While the so-called 'illegal' communities are mostly pranks, the government acts real serious about them. I'll give you a small (and to me, truly horrifying) example : A few students in my sister's school opened up their school community, and started posting 'lies' about the school authorities (which in reality are the bitter truths). A police complaint was filed against those students and everything - and now if Google is so ready to comply with such people, then i guess it pretty much means game-over for free-speech on the internet in India.

PS: Hope that Google doesn't provide _my_ IP address. Or even /.

Things That Bit Butts

List of nifty little phrases that have bitten their speakers in the ass:

• They will never bomb Berlin
• Read my lips, no new taxes
• I did not have sex with that woman
• Mission accomplished
• Don't be evil

Do no evil

Rule # 1 - Do no evil
Rule # 0 - Make money

Indian personalities

They object, among others [CC], to posts against certain Indian personalities...

So much for those Bollywood jokes on Conan!

- RG>

Wonder who's next?

Well, China has Google filtering search results. Now Orkut is giving IP info to Mumbai officials to ensure that "anti-Indian" speech is not propagated through the "tubes". What's next, the American government spying on their own citizens and abusing the law that was put in place to allow them to do it?

Wait a minute...

Censorship?!

How the hell is this censorship? the police are asking Google amongst others to share information about people who may be linked to mafia organizations. They were already blocking these sites as they appeared you realy might want to do a bit more research before you start having knee jerk reactions every time Google does something involving an authority. PS Supporters of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dawood_Ibrahim [wikipedia.org]Dawood_ Ibrahim are who they are interested in. Doesn't seem like a very nice guy PSS How fucking clean does Google have to be before you people will be happy? Really for god sakes get a hold of yourselves their a damn corporation they do have certain obligations to something other then the set of morales you seem to think they should have when you cant even maintain such a clean lifestyle.

Iran

So far Google has caved when secular governments have gone after people for civil disobedience.

I wonder what they'd do in an officially Muslim like Iran if someone posted a blog saying, "I was a Muslim but I converted to Christianity", and the government demanded that Google turn over that person's identifying information?

If Google refused, then they're giving up on the broad claim that their presence a blessing to a country regardless of what censorship / person-finding they assist with. If they went along with it, then they show the true vacuousness of their "moral" reasoning.

I don't want such a test case to arise, but I'd be (morbidly) curious to see how it plays out.

Criminal investigatoins should be allowed

After reviewing the articles I've come to the conclusion that while I don't condone investigating people for hate-speech against India that I see no problem with investigating the source of a mob boss fan club. Even applying the U.S. constitution (which of course India is not held to) I would see no problem with this. The police can and should investigate something like this. If it turns out it's someone not connected to the criminal then that's fine. But if it turns out that it's part of a conspiracy to drum up public support and poison the jury pool then that is an entirely different matter. Who's to say that this anonymously submitted article is not part of that conspiracy?

I believe Google did the right thing by turning over records to the police. Anonymity is not sacrosanct. Freedom to say what you want is, and if that is not allowed in India then that should be changed. However, impeding a criminal investigation is not a good way to bring about change.

I wish I could point out a specific attribution but it's not a new concept that one must work within ones societal rules to change society for the better. I believe it is mentioned at least a few times in the new testament and most likely in other religious and philosophical texts as well.

Rule#0: make money.

What's so surprising about this move? Google like any other company aims to make money. Like I've been saying all along, this "don't be evil" mantra is an elaborate ploy to make them look like angels and ask no questions.

Remember how we supported microsoft against IBM a few decades ago when IBM was considered the oppressor and microsoft the liberator?

If it hurts their bottom line, they will toe the line. Google has a huge dev center in Bangalore, and many other cities in India. If they screw with the government, they are in for it. That's the bottom line. That's why they are bending over backwards and opening their thighs for the cops.

Their new mantra?

Don't be evil (to white people living in western nations.)

-GiH

This *is* censorship!

I fail to see the point made by people proclaiming this move is not censorship. It violates the principle of free speech by giving the state the right to prosecute someone who has different opinions. This *is* censorship - not enforced by google, but rather one enforced by the fear of being prosecuted. And this is where google comes in - they are doing all they can to put you behind bars if the govt. asks them to.

Four legs good, two legs ..%((_$$ NO CARRIER.

Screw Your American Values

Why do Americans always want to force their own stupid ideas on other countries? What is next? Eating beef? Meeting girls without parent arrangement? Having names of only two syllables?

Umm.. whats the mystery here ?

The Indian police asked for information about some account holders which it suspected of doing something illegal and Google co-operated. I think I have read about similar stuff before. What was it? Right, MPAA and RIAA asking ISPs to turn over account info and traffic logs for IPs it suspected of "distributing" copyrighted content. Personally I would have preferred that the facade of anonymity was maintained in both the cases but when most of the people have started treating ISPs fully cooperating with RIAA and MPAA as totally normal and justified then why all the excitement over information being provided to Police?

Beware

Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master.

It's Hate Speech

The groups with banners like 'I hate India' are clearly enganged in hate speech. Tracking them down and stopping them is not cencorship, but is rather required of any responsible government. It is really disappointing to see a portion of usually enlightened slashdot crown defending hate speech or being flippant about it.

So does this mean....

Google = Microsoft 2.0?

Sadly in today's corporate world it is hard when companies are encouraged to abandon ethics in the wake of profits.

Maybe Google can do like Halliburton, and when we get pissed enough at them, they commit treason and fraud or they get involved in anti-trust issues, they can just move to India.

For the MS crowd, this is good news, it proves even the so called good companies can be evil.

I can remember when Sun was a 'good' company, and Oracle was a 'good' company, and AOL was a 'good' company, and even a time when MS was the anti-establishment and was the 'good' company.

Life moves on and we all learn that most corporations suck, and even if they don't try to suck, they either have a few bad apples in the company or they purposely suck and let their marketing machine spin them as the good guys anyway. Strange how Apple leeching off the OSS world, comes to mind on the last one. ;)

Here is how Leftist politics works...

A left-wing socialist government creates a bunch of speech codes, in order to "promote social justice" and "stop hate" and a bunch of other vague progressive sounding goals, not dissimilar to laws that are in effect in Western Europe, Canada, etc.

An American company then obeys those laws, as they are required to do by the laws in those countries as well as the laws in the United States (which require U.S. companies obey the laws in the countries they do business).

So then leftists in America blame the "evil corporation" for following the laws of India - while at the same time praising those laws and demanding those same sort of "social justice" and "anti-hate" laws to be passed in the United States.

And you know, if American companies didn't follow the laws in India, the Slashdot news story would be "American company breaks Indian laws to protect hate criminals!!!" and the same people would be just as outraged.

Now, I can respect people who have radically different world views from myself - but I expect that even those who disagree with me have some sort of internal consistency to their ideology. I understand that they might have a different viewpoint from me, but I expect them to not have a paradoxical viewpoint. I would say that since the fall of the Soviet Union, and resulting unpopularity of Marxism, that the left isn't really an ideological position - pretty much they are completely ideology free - they are more a purely emotional counter-reaction to anything in reality that they find emotionally disturbing. The left is becoming less and less of an ideology, and more and more of a neurosis.

I mean, get your shit straight. Either hate speech laws are good, and companies should follow government regulations, and American companies should respect the sovereignty of the countries where they are doing business... Or hate speech laws are bad, companies should ignore regulations they don't agree with, and U.S. companies should use their economic power to influence those countries. If you feel one way, or another, I might disagree with you - but we can rationally discuss your ideas, and I can respect your ideas. They have value to everyone in a democratic society, even if everyone doesn't agree with you. But the vast majority of the new left flip back and forth on issues like some weird political schizophrenia.

Premature and Overstated Story

How does a broad statement by a Mumbai city cop--likely overstating his ability to track down evildoers--become a news story about what Orkut is doing? (according to an Indian newspaper, according to what a city cop reportedly told them). Orkut has resisted this type of request in the past, and has only complied when they came from a court. Orkut sometimes has many small hate groups created by users in violation of Orkut's terms, which Orkut deletes when enough users have reported them as bogus. I doubt that Orkut is willing to respond to requests from city police departments on all the posts to these groups. Does Orkut even has any representatives in India--who the cop claimed to have met with?

About communication: speak.to [speak.to]

Re:Time to feel silly, slashdotters...

In addition to the fact that many Indians are not as urbane, tolerant, and well-educated as those one encounters in the US, one has to take into account the fact that India is much more diverse ethnically and religiously than the United States, and that many potentially hostile groups live in close proximity. While I don't agree with such censorship, I can understand the desire of the Indian government to keep everybody happy and avoid bloodshed.

(Shivaji, btw died in 18th century)

17th century, actually: 1680.

Re:Time to feel silly, slashdotters...

Mod parent +1 (or at least 1 :P)Insightful. (C'mon! "Troll" is a little harsh LOL)

Precisely. I am an immigrant Indian living in the US and I personally feel insulted by that bias, positive as it may be. It results in a weird kind of prejudice wherein if you do something outstanding people are like "well, duh, they're all like that. Big effing deal :P". And under achievement (relative to the OTHER Indians) is reportedly grounds for deportation in some IT companies. To be perfectly clear, I have experienced the first one personally. Since I don't work in IT (merciful Deus :P), I have only heard of the latter (probably hyperbole so please don't bore me by responding to it all at once :P)

It's quite simple - Gaussian distributions are fairly universal. We have our share of nut cases in India, as also religious fundamentalists that could make Pat Robertson blush (well, that's not possible, but you get my drift. Luckily, no one like Ted Haggard as yet =D), awful movies that seem to be cast out of an industrial mold, and idiots of every variety. Also of note are the "lazyass armchair historians" who feel that it is enough to have a rich heritage but who make no effort on their own part to build a better present or plan for a glorious future.

In short, India is just like any other country, including this one. There's good folks and bad folks. There's eminently sensible people on the one hand and the farking idiots on the other. Am I surprising anyone here? :P

More to the point, I am a member of the social site they mention (Orkut) and it's a little silly that someone actually sues Google for "anti-Indian sentiments". Sheesh, get a thicker skin FFS :P. Why would any sensible person be offended by the comments of some random hate monger? Too much time on their hands I suppose :P. Treat opinions like spam people. You just don't read them all. *roll*

The thing about the underworld dons is a horse of a different color. What non-Indians should know is that the "underworld" in India is NOT exactly analogous to the mafia here or the drug cartels in South America. It's a far worse problem than that. To be more precise, the specific don named Dawood Ibrahim can probably be characterized as the Indian version of Osama Bin Laden crossed with Al Capone. In other words, terrorism coupled with the usual kind of racketeering. And there's more noobs like this guy. The Mumbai (erstwhile Bombay) blasts of 1993 is a good example (I was actually in school near where they happened back then *brrr*). There's some more recent stuff as well, which I have not been following much in the news.

Suffice to say, if Indians wanted to establish something akin to the Patriot Act, these are the dudes who'll be first on the dinner menu :P. So, not SO crazy in this PARTICULAR instance. I would suggest that they not try to close them down though. Illegally hacking into them and monitoring them might be more profitable in the long-term ;-). What are Intelligence Agencies for anyway? LOL

Re:Do know Evil?

Clusty has the best clustered results by far. I think if they can speed up their engine speed for faster response they can be a legit competitor to google overtime.

MOD PARENT UP

Its not a troll.

Re:Time to feel silly, slashdotters...

As far as your comment like "The rest of India, is as smart as the cow." goes I would like to share some interesting things: India produces average 300,000 Engineers every year. India produces more than 400,000 science graduates every year. Getting an education in arts is a shame in India.If you are an arts graduate it is a shame. Indian Engineering Services is very tough to clear. Indian Institute of Management Ahmedabad is the toughest B School to get into. Indian engineering entrance exams are tough and JEE is very very tough to crack. I suggest you go and solve I.E.Irodov Problems in General Physics now. Indians who clear JEE to get in to IIT, solve it in SCHOOL. Indians are very good at maths. If you think they are not then go and solve the complete paper of Pre Engineering Maths. Please check how many countries borrowed rocket engineering from Germany and then implemented it. Indians did on their own. To become an IPS Officer(Indian Police Services) you need to clear UPSC which is one of the toughest exam for administrative services anywhere in world. As a NATION India has every right to do what it feels is correct for it.

Re:Time to feel silly, slashdotters...

I agree with parent. Why mark this troll? The truth is that a majority of the Indian public isn't as smart as what the average American encounters. In a democracy, it is always easy to mislead the public.

Re:Time to feel silly, slashdotters...

As far as your comment like "The rest of India, is as smart as the cow." goes, I would like to share some interesting things:
India produces average 300,000 Engineers every year.
India produces more than 400,000 science graduates every year.
Getting an education in arts is a shame in India.If you are an arts graduate it is a shame.
Indian Engineering Services is very tough to clear.
Indian Institute of Management Ahmedabad is the toughest B School to get into.
Indian engineering entrance exams are tough and JEE is very very tough to crack.
I suggest you go and solve I.E.Irodov Problems in General Physics now.
Indians who clear JEE to get in to IIT, solve it in SCHOOL.
Indians are very good at maths. If you think they are not then go and solve the complete paper of Pre Engineering Maths.
Please check how many countries borrowed rocket e