No Passport For Britons Refusing Mass Surveillance

UpnAtom writes "People who refuse to give up their bank records, tax records & details of any benefits they've claimed, and the records of their car movements for the last year, or refuse to submit to an interrogation on whether they are the same person that this mountain of data belongs to — will be denied passports from March 26th. The Blair government has already admitted that this and other data will be cross-linked so that the Home Office and other officials can spy on the everyday lives of innocent Britons. Britons were already the most spied upon nation in Western Europe — more so even than Sweden. Data-mining through this unprecedented level of mass-surveillance allows any future British government to leapfrog even countries like China and North Korea."

wow

it's V for Vendetta coming true!!!!

Hitler would be proud

Why did they bother with WW2, they should have just said to Hitler, we like what you do. Lets unite, no bloodshed, let the industrial complex grow.

j/k

Re:Hitler would be proud

Simple...they may have liked what he did, but they wanted to be the ones in charge, not him.

Re:Hitler would be proud

Why did they bother with WW2, they should have just said to Hitler, we like what you do. Lets unite, no bloodshed, let the industrial complex grow.

I hereby invoke Godwin's law. Come back to me when the Brits start basing their policy on racial purity and blaming the Jews and Slavs for all their problems. What they are doing is scary and I'd be looking to leave the UK if I lived there but the Nazi example is just plain stupid.

Muslims

are the new Jews. Give history a little time to repeat itself.

Re:Muslims

are the new Jews. Give history a little time to repeat itself.

The example is still stupid. Come back to me when an entire political party bases it's platform around hatred of the Muslims. The fear of terrorism is being used to take away our rights. Not the fear of Arabs or the fear of Muslims. So the Nazi example is still stupid.

I can't take anybody seriously that brings up the Nazis in a discussion. Sorry, but Godwin had a point.

Re:Muslims

Well, that rather depends on where and when you were living.

Have you heard of The King David Hotel Bombing [wikipedia.org], Irgun [wikipedia.org] or The Stern Gang [wikipedia.org]?

The world changes, but few groups of peoples have particularly pure histories.

Re:Muslims

Correction: Some Muslims are actually engaged in evil acts. All Muslims are paying the price, however.

What you're proposing is on one hand, we punish all Muslims for the acts of a few, or the alternative, which is a police state, in which the freedoms the evil people have come to destroy, are eventually taken away by the Government anyway. Try reading 1984 some time, will ya?

Classic Joseph Goebbels Propaganda

wytcld -- your response is classic Joseph Goebbels propaganda, and shows clearly how Muslims are indeed the New Jews. "Some have misbehaved, lets kill all of them." Second, what makes you think Muslims in general "tolerate" suicide bombers? Do Americans "tolerate" George Bush's widespread plundering of the middle east? Do Americans "tolerate" Foreign Affairs' call that a civil war in Iraq could be "good"? Do Jews tolerate that 6 year kids are shot in the back and killed after protesting their house being demolished? NO -- I just dont think the majority of people can do anything about these war crimes, just as the majority of Americans and Jews have not done anything about their own ranks committing war crimes. And of course, this puts aside the fact that far more killing, stealing, and plundering is done by non-Muslims (think Vietnam and Iraq war 2003, two of 40 examples that come to mind.)

Re:Muslims

are the new Jews? Really? Doesn't it make some difference that the Islamists are actually engaged in varieties of evil such as the Nazis falsely accused the Jews of?

So far, a few thousand people claiming to be Muslim have committed terrorist acts. There are more citizens of almost every nation on earth who have raped, killed, and tortured their fellow citizens than there are Muslim terrorists. Terrorism is not the problem, authoritarian governments oppressing foreign nations and supporting nations that do the same is the root problem and terrorism is just the symptom. Sure, religious fundamentalism is dangerous, but ultimately it can't be eradicated without massive bloodshed. It just needs to be contained, that's all. Bombing the hell out of countries just acts like natural selection for the worst and strongest terrorists who can survive it, and the collateral damage makes finding new recruits at the orphanage quite easy.

This is news?

As a UK resident, all I can say is "that is what we have come to expect from this government". It seems they thought George Orwell's 1984 was a manual on how to govern.

However, we do have one advantage over North Korea: Blair has less credibility than Kim Il Jong. And unlike most facist governments, they can't get the trains to run on time either.

Re:This is news?

And unlike most facist governments, they can't get the trains to run on time either.

I always thought this was a rather curious statement. What is it about train system efficiency that inculcates a preference for or against fascism in the general populace? For all the people that equate Bush and Hitler, one would think that Amtrak would be in better shape. Perhaps Amtrak's worthlessness is a sign that our political system clearly retains its fundamental vibrancy.

I've never seen a political party base its platform on the railroad time schedule, but I wonder how the tradeoff is justified between transportation regularity and political or civil liberties. Ought liberal governments strive first to reform the train systems such that the fascist option is obviated? Is this our first line of defense against the black shirts?

I suppose it's no coincidence that fascism only arose after the advent and spread of railroad transport throughout the Western world. One wonders if subsequent developments in transportation technology--automobiles, airplanes, segways--have opened up new forms of political and social organization, such that the fascist constituency (those that passionately care about rail transport) have been minimized.

Is the ongoing threat of far right political parties in Europe (the BNP, Le Pen, etc) the reason why Europe's socialist governments sink so much money into subsidizing their rail systems, whereas the United States has no need, and therefore couldn't care a whit about poor Amtrak?

Are there any political theorists out there who can resolve this question?

Re:This is news?

Is the ongoing threat of far right political parties in Europe (the BNP, Le Pen, etc) the reason why Europe's socialist governments sink so much money into subsidizing their rail systems, whereas the United States has no need, and therefore couldn't care a whit about poor Amtrak?

Take maps of greenhouse gas emmissions [unu.edu], signatories of the Kyoto protocol [wri.org] and a comparison of petrol prices [see-search.com] and maybe you'll come up with a different reason.

Re:This is news?

Facism means giving all the authority to the executive branch in order to make things happen. Facists rise when people are frustrated with inefficacy in their government, and a charismatic leader arrives promising to solve everything if only he is given the authority to do it. "Making the trains run on time" is a good example of a problem in execution (as opposed to decision making) - everybody wants it done, it's a matter of somebody taking charge and making it hapen.

I don't think many people believe that Bush or the current British government are facists. The problem is simply that they are moving in that direction, by erasing boundaries such as judicial oversight in order to "git 'er done." The problem with these massive surveilance programs and police powers is that they grease the tracks for an irreparable slide into facism the next time there's a national crisis or an especially power-hungry leader. When it's a crime to report executive overstepping (such as the current national security letters issue), we are all too close.

Re:This is news?

"What is it about train system efficiency that inculcates a preference for or against fascism in the general populace?"

This might sound kind of silly, but hear me out. I think it's a question of whether society as a whole prioritizes the lives of individuals, or the regular functioning of societal institutions.

Will the train wait for you if you are running two minutes late? Or will it leave exactly on time? What if you are going to visit your sick mother in the hospital? Will the conductor let you on if you run up at the last minute, after the doors have closed, tears in your eyes?

Are the people in charge sticklers for the rules, or will the allow an except for your particular life story and situation? Are we cogs in the machine, to be cast off in the ditch if we are unable to keep up with the machinations of the city? Are we here to support the institutions, or are the institutions here to make our lives easier?

I grew up in the US and got used to reliable infrastructure. I have done a lot of travelling in South American since I was in college, and it has really changed my perspective. Not that I am saying that one is better (I'll get to fascism later), but just observing at this point.

I just got back from Bolivia. In La Paz, any body with a car can put a sign on their windshield and do their own taxi service. Anybody can set down a blanket on the sidewalk and start selling potatoes or trinkets to tourists. Open air markets have fresh meat rotting in the high-altitude sun, and freshly picked vegetables sitting out in the open, dirt still on them. There are no police who are going to stop you, there are no taxes to pay. There *are* registered, licensed taxis, and regular retail shops like we are used to here in the United States. However, official institutions don't have total control over every aspect of life like they do here. Here in the US, you need permission to do wipe your ass, pardon the expression. But in Bolivia, at least, informal 'institutions' exist alongside the official ones.

In La Paz, there are full-size vans that run regular routes as taxi/buses. After 5 O'clock, when people are getting off of work, they will squeeze in as many people as can fit. Everyone is just trying to get home to their families, and nobody is going to throw you off if you are just sitting one butt-cheek on the edge of a seat. I've ridden several times in crowded, swaying full-size buses over dirt roads on mountains. I'm agnostic, but I prayed an awful lot.

Now, of course, there are a lot more deaths due to safety hazards in Bolivia, in traffic and in homes. A lot of people get food poisoning. I think Bolivians are more accepting of the suffering and death in general.

Here in the US, people seem to have what I call a hysteria of action. If something bad happens to anyone , Sometime Must Be Done, so that nobody ever has to suffer ever again. If a child dies in a shooting, all guns everywhere must be registered and locked up. If somebody gets food poisoning, we must institute totally new rules and procedures about handling food. If somebody dies in a car accident, we have to put air-bags on the roofs of all new cars. If somebody dies of a rare, expensive disease, we must establish a new non-profit so that nobody ever need suffer this disease again. If something bad ever manages to happen again, it was because somebody was lazy, not doing their job, and they must be fired. America is a paradise, and if bad things happen, it's somebody's fault for not doing their job.

Anyway, relating this to Nazi-ism, what kind of person throws people into the oven? I believe the same attitude of the person who makes sure that the trains run on time, regardless of who actually needs to go where. They prioritize the machine above the person. All of the death camp guards were just doing their jobs, following orders, doing what they were told. It didn't matter that this prisoner had a life and a family; he needed to be loaded up on the train or suffocated

Re:This is news?

While I understand your point about feeling the "vibrant essence of life itself", it's one thing to take a trip to Bolivia, and it's another thing to have this experience every day of your life.

I've lived my whole life in Sao Paulo, Brazil, and while conditions here are nowhere near what you've described, the general population's lack of commitment and accountability eventually gets to your nerves. What impressed me most is this part of your comment:

Here in the US, people seem to have what I call a hysteria of action. If something bad happens to anyone , Sometime Must Be Done, so that nobody ever has to suffer ever again. If a child dies in a shooting, all guns everywhere must be registered and locked up. If somebody gets food poisoning, we must institute totally new rules and procedures about handling food. If somebody dies in a car accident, we have to put air-bags on the roofs of all new cars. If somebody dies of a rare, expensive disease, we must establish a new non-profit so that nobody ever need suffer this disease again. If something bad ever manages to happen again, it was because somebody was lazy, not doing their job, and they must be fired. America is a paradise, and if bad things happen, it's somebody's fault for not doing their job.

I greatly admire The Something Must be Done philosophy. It suggests a degree of discipline that pushes society as a whole to improve itself, act on its problems and not try to excuse itself as a victim of circumstances. It shows people value personal responsibility and back their feelings with real actions. And while in some aspects this may be an idealization, it shows a set of values which are lost on the general Brazilian culture.

Re:This is news?

You have a great point. I took great care to not idealize neither American nor Bolivian life or culture. There are good and bad elements and both.

"I greatly admire The Something Must be Done philosophy."

I agree. I don't want to eat raw meat that's been sitting out in the sun all day. However, pulling spinach from the shelves *all over the nation* because 10 people died of food poisoning is a severe over-reaction, IMHO. I think there needs to be a healthy balance between "Something must be done" and an acceptance of life.

Yes, your mom has a rare form of cancer. The best that the Mayo clinic can do is give her three months, if you want to spend a million dollars. You know what? Your mom is going to die. The best thing you can do for yourself, psychologically, is mourn and accept it. Not that it's easy to do, but no amount of work and and science will save your parents or you from death. As a society, we could take those millions of dollars spent on rare diseases, and immunize young children. We don't have to undertake hysterical, desperate work at all costs when life presents a problem to you.

Here in the US people are overworked and stressed out, taking anti-depressants because their lives aren't perfect. We don't know how to enjoy the simple, everydayness of life. That doesn't mean that we stop doing any science and research. Life is not a paradise, and pretending that science and engineering will make it so will only lead you to disappointment with life.

Re:This is news?

If you UKers really cared about it, you'd go into the streets and protest.

You have the power, you elected those people.

Re:This is news?

That's cute, you think the current British government gives a flying fuck about protests, or indeed, what "the people" think.

Re:This is news?

That'd be the government that has effectively banned protests everywhere [liberty-hu...hts.org.uk] unless advance permission is obtained. And it is unlikely to be granted if the powers that be disagree with the protest.

Re:This is news?

Ah yes, how's that working out for you?

Re:This is news?

1. How much effect did one million Brits protesting in the streets have on Blair's policy towards Iraq?
2. We didn't elect these people: the Conservative party polled more votes overall than Labour, but Labour won a substantial majority of seats due both to skewed boundaries and the skewed first-past-the-post system.
3. If we went into the streets to protest against every hair-brained authoritarian scheme they enact, let alone propose, we wouldn't have time to earn a living wage.

Re:This is news?

If you UKers really cared about it, you'd go into the streets and protest.

Depends what streets you are talking about. If you mean out of the way streets that the media would not be very interested in, then yes. If you are talking about protesting within a kilometre of Parliament, then no. Protests have effectively been made illegal outside parliament and no satisfactory reason has been given. I suspect the real reason is the million strong anti-war march that occurred. That rattled them and they do not want a repeat performance. You can apply to protest, but they give you all kinds of conditions such as you can only have a small group, your placards can only be so big etc etc. Basically the kind of mass protests we have seen in the past will be no more. Not so long ago, a young woman was arrested for simply reading out the names of dead soldiers outside parliament, so they really are enforcing it.

You have the power, you elected those people.

Well only 35% or so actually voted for Labour, but due to the crazy "first past the post" system, they won. The problem is that many peoples votes count for nothing if they live in the wrong area. Labour once promised to change the system, but have gone quiet about it.

The other problem is that privacy issues are not really protest material, although they should be. The best we can hope for is lots of negative coverage about it in the press, and other parties coming forward opposed to the measures.

Re:This is news?

We will be a Nation of Suspects, watched.

We already are a nation of suspects, being watched. All the recent alarm bells about "sleep walking into a surveillance society" have been too little, too late. The UK is a already a surveillance society, that we slept walked into. Now it's just a matter of degree.

And like Americans and frogs

they just sit there in that pan of slowly heating water...

Re:And like Americans and frogs

And like Americans and frogs ... they just sit there in that pan of slowly heating water...

Look, I don't know where you get your french stereotypes, but I've never heard of one sitting in a tub of hot water.

Re:And like Americans and frogs

but they've BEEN subject to ACTUAL terrorism via the IRA for much longer... like 20 years, it's actually got better over there since before 9/11. Why didn't the British govt need this in the 70's and 80's when IRA bombings were several times a year? It's like things get better, so they feel the need to "look busy" and punish the same number of people because they have the spare time.

Re:And like Americans and frogs

The point of terrorism is just that, to cause terror, not necessarily deaths. With the IRA, we never knew if a bomb would go off in our city for