Dell Censors IdeaStorm Linux Dissent

thefickler writes "It seems pointless to seek ideas and feedback if you're going to ignore and delete the opinions you don't like. That's exactly what Dell is doing with its IdeaStorm website, which the company set up to solicit such ideas and feedback. Dell deleted a post linking to an article that criticizes its handling of the 'pre-installed Linux' issue."

Ahh.

See something you don't like? Suppress it!

Go ahead, mod me down, fuckers. Your mother is a Java programmer.

Re:Ahh.

Actually, my mom does like coding in BASIC. My grandmother was more of a punch-card woman, though.

Dell laptops cost MORE w/ no OS than w/ Windows!

Dell is paying consumers to use Windows! The exact same Dell Latitude D520 Notebook costs $48 MORE if it comes with no operating system than if it comes with Windows.

The laptop loaded with Windows XP [dell.com] costs $699, while the same laptop and configuration loaded with no operating system [dell.com] costs $747. Note that you must change the following two hardware options on the web page showing laptop without an OS so that they match the hardware options found by default for the Windows laptop: Hard drive=60GB 5400RPM and Modular Bay Optical="8X DVD".

So it seems that Windows has a negative price tag as far as Dell is concerned! It looks like Dell is still subsidizing Microsoft for every Windows-free laptop they sell. I'm getting my laptop from System76 [system76.com] -- they sell excellent quality Linux laptops, desktops, and servers. They also have a great support team [ubuntuforums.org] that cares about Linux and open source.

Re:Dell laptops cost MORE w/ no OS than w/ Windows

One way they offer lower prices is by doing free advertizing on slashdot.

Re:Dell laptops cost MORE w/ no OS than w/ Windows

pre-loaded windows systems come full of advertisement crap such as free AOL installs which will dramatically decrease the cost of the PC to you and me. This is one of the many ways PC manufacturers keep the cost of the machine down. It's very likely that the advertising revenue is greater than the pittance they pay for the OS in their ginormous OEM contract so it doesn't surprise me at all. There won't be any advertising software in that machine with no OS and there's unlikely to be advertising software pre-loaded onto a linux machine. It's unlikely to be a major conspiracy, occam's razor and what not. Alternatively, maybe they could start selling PCs with a giant AOL logo on the side of the case. I'm sure that would go over well.

Re:Ahh.

Is it not Dell's right to remove anything that they feel is negative coverage on their own website?

Yes, of course they have the right to suppress whatever they want on their own stuff. In fact, we should expect this from most organizations run by humans.

But many of us would really like to know when this is happening. It tells us a lot about the trustworthiness of their information. If an organization (corporation, government, whatever) wants our trust, they should make their information handling "transparent" and visible to us. Otherwise, we'll just infer that they have something to hide from us.

Nobody with a grain of sense ever trusts any organization that hides or suppresses information about their inner workings. (And yes, this does mean that I don't trust very many organizations. We have words for someone who does. Words like "naïve" and "sucker". ;-)

Dude

Dude, you bought a [DELETED]

There are more civil ways

Michael Dell is back as the Chairman... Steve Balmer is a chairman..

chair and chair alike.....

Ideas or Criticism

I didn't read the article because for some reason it's blocked at work (we have odd filters), but it's possible the post containing the link didn't meet the requirements.

If I asked for some ideas, I would be open minded about what I received. If I got complaints instead with no ideas (not sure if the link gave suggestions or just complained), I would also remove them to try and stop the forum from becoming a flame war.

Re:Ideas or Criticism

Synopsis: Dell would make some buisiness models "Linux Ready", and look into other models. They would pick SUSE as their distro of choice.

Roughly the idea storm post I read (not the article, but it linked to it), someone decided to complain that.
1) Dell wasn't providing Linux support for all models NOW
2) Dell wasn't given a guranteed time frame or even a gurantee on making all models "Linux ready" or "Linux preinstalled"
3) Dell picked SUSE, the Linux that pays MS.

The persond didn't use profanity and wasnt exceptionally inflamatory given how ticked off he seemded, but at the same time, he was complaining that he wasn't handed the sun and moon on a silver platter right now.

Why is this under YRO?

So they deleted a post critical of them. The post then appeared on a private blog without risk of legal reprisal. No **rights** were violated unless this was allowed in the TOS, and even then those are rights granted by Dell at their site, not legal rights. It's stupid, tacky and self-defeating. I don't think anyone thinks this was a smart move on Dell's part, but it's not real censorship like what we fear. He is free to post the same post, 5x more vitriolic (provided it's all still true), anywhere he wants.

Besides, who in their right mind thought this was something more than astroturfing on Dell's part?

Overstatement

It seems pointless to seek ideas and feedback if you're going to ignore and delete the opinions you don't like.

Why, does asking for opinions imply that you agree to follow and publish every one of them? They might have had a different kind of feedback in mind, like new models with a different hardware feature set.

Re:Overstatement

does asking for opinions imply that you agree to follow and publish every one of them

Probably not but I've always seen coverups (selectively and somewhat ambiguously deleting posts) as disingenuous.

You know...

To the degree that the goal is to persuade Dell to support Linux, reinforcing the impression that Linux users are a bunch of hypersensitive crackpots who think the world owes them everything seems counterproductive.

Re:You know...

Linux users are a bunch of hypersensitive crackpots who think the world owes them everything

Now, you've hit the nail on the head.

I know this is going to get modded down but I'm being very honest: The Linux community is turning into it's own worst enemy. Have it shoved in your face with all the fanatical zest of a religious cult visiting your home at 6am on a weekend morning is going to turn many many people sour to the message before it ever gets told.

How many companies that are dealing with Joe Sixpack users really want to be aligned with a fringe group like the Linux community? Not many.

Par for the course

This is the way of corporate and web relations nowadays. Lets sum up in a list, shall we?

1. Corporation screws customers
2. Someone on the web blogs about it
3. Social networking sites pick up on it
4. Semi-mainstream media and maybe even real MSM pick it up
5. Corp backpedals
6. Everyone forgets about the transgression
7. Profit! (for the corp)

We don't even need ellipsis. We've been through this enough to know where the profit comes from at this point.

YRO should be changed to URF

really, when was the last time that YRO had a positive story?

Right place, right time

I once went to a restaurant and ordered a steak, medium-rare. I know a lot of people would rather have their steaks cooked well-done, grey all the way through. I'm not one of them. I like the tenderness that a little undercooking provides. The blood filling the plate is a delectable gravy to be sopped up with some bread. There really isn't anything I like better than a thick slab of ribeye cooked crispy on the outside and pink all the way through.

You can imagine my surprise when they delivered a mash of ground beef and some wretched oil-soaked fries on the side. I said to the waitress, this isn't what I ordered. She was unmoved. I demanded that I talk to a manager. This little pissant 20-something comes out and asks me if there is anything he can help me with. I shoved the order in his face and asked him if he thought it was a steak, medium-rare.

No, sir.
Then why the hell did you serve it to me? Are you telling me I can't order my meal the way I want it and expect a modicum of service?
Sir, this is Burger King. You can have it your way, within the bounds of our menu.

I suppose I should have gone to the steak restaurant if I wanted steak.

Re:Right place, right time

Hey, give BadAnalogyGuy a break. He's just trying to live up to his name.

Re:Right place, right time

The red juice from a steak is not blood.

Uh, yeah it is. What the hell do you think it is?

If you are trying to cast Dell as analogous to Burger King then you're gonna have a hard time convincing anyone. You may not like the taste of Dell's "food" but they made of living off of "made to order" configurability. Dell pioneered that.

His analogy's spot on. Burger King's motto, as he put it, is "have it your way." Now they at least assume that what you might want is at least roughly the same as most of their other customers, so if you come in and want anchovies on your burger you're SOL. Same with Dell. Yes, they do configure it for you, but there are limits to it and one of the limits they've chosen to set is they're not dealing with Linux for consumers. Quite frankly, I don't blame them.

So I'd say the original analogy is correct. If the company in question simply doesn't sell what you want, buy from someone else. I really don't get the furor, it's not like Dell is the only computer manufacturer. And any Linux geek worth his/her salt is going to want to install their own thing anyway.

If it's just about not paying the MS "tax," let's make that it's own issue.

Similar threads are still live

If there's censorship, why would the thread "Stop making excuses, and start paying attention. WE WANT LINUX!!!" still be live? [dellideastorm.com]

Seesh People.. better things to do?

I think it is important for everyone to understand that First Amendment rights don't exist on Websites, blogs, and message forums. Those that own those communication platforms are free to delete or censure anything they feel necessary to maintain the spirit and intentions of both the supporting business and the site as a whole.

What exacerbates the issue is whenever a moderation activity takes place against either the open source community, or the Linux community, the reaction is swift, dramatic, and overdone. OMFG my post was removed.. it is a conspiracy!!!

So what! Dell removed a post on a site that was soliciting user input. Aren't there bigger problems in the world?

If I asked you to come in my house, and provide me feedback on how my living room looks, and you responded "that's the biggest piece of crap I've ever seen," then I would probably censure you and throw you out.

Re:Seesh People.. better things to do?

If I asked you to come in my house, and provide me feedback on how my living room looks, and you responded "that's the biggest piece of crap I've ever seen," then I would probably censure you and throw you out.

That's very rude of you. You ask someone to come over and give you their opinion for free, which you will then profit from by having a nicer house, and you kick them out because you don't like what they said?

Given our current property laws, that is certainly within your rights. It is also within my rights to stand at the edge of a property waving a large sign saying "Rude person lives here."

As always, freedom of the press only applies to those that own a press. Otherwise, you are free (for now) to go find a street corner and shout at passers by.

I get the feeling that even complaining about this issue pisses off a lot of authoritarian-types. It seems there are a number of people in the world who really, really want everyone else to stop complaining about anything that might hurt the profits of a business. We should all just lie back and think of England.

Businesses have a right to do certain things that piss us off. That does not mean that we have no right to complain about it. And the mere existence of other, larger problems in the world also does not remove our right to complain about this one.

Much Ado about deleting a Troll Post?

Did you read the post that was deleted? It's a brief post that came off as if it was written by an angry teenager. It smacked more of a personal attack than a cool-tempered, well-written, logical argument.

There has to be some moderation of flame-bait and trolling posts on any forum. Moreover, the post was deleted probably by an overzealous moderator, rather than through some evil Dell mastermind with a conspiracy against linux.

Dell runs a business, not a fanboy site.

The irony of the Dell+Linux camp is every linux fanboy swears up and down dell sucks and they would never buy one but at the same time think Linux is self defeating if Dell doesn't pre-install it.

What is it? why let the tempers flair? If you can't be sincere about something without sounding immature, irrelevent and childish what is the sense of Dell even catering to you or justifying your actions by supporting them on their systems?

Its dells forums, its dells channel of communication. They can do as they see fit and the irony of this entire debate merely shows the lack of responsibility on behalf of people who are trying there damndest to think they're the best for reasons that mean NOTHING to a corporation or its clients.

Justification for Deletion

I didn't see the original post that was deleted, but in general, you'll find, especially on public boards, that criticisms don't always fit under the category of ideas. Constructive criticism would do well on a board called IdeaStorm, but if you are simply saying "Your implementation sucks," it's not much of an idea.

Again, didn't see the deleted post.

The post was posted wrong

Look people this is not some grand case of censorship, it's moderation pure and simple and that is something Slashdotters should be able to appreciate. The site, idea storm, is a website soliciting ideas. It is NOT for posting criticisms and off-topic crap.

This is the equivalant of a slashdot moderator moderating a post -1 off-topic or -1 troll. With the obvious exception is that there is no ability to read at -1 on dellideastorm.

Ideas and suggestions are one thing. Posting an off-topic criticism is another.

Note: I do not agree with the choice to remove the post. But I also understand the reasoning behind the decision.

I swear, the bias and overeacting around here is as bad as fox news lately. Censorship... please. China has censorship. This little Dell forum moderation is peanuts compared to REAL censorship. Get a grip, Slashdot.

vote with your feet

if you don't think Dell does it for you, go Apple, whitebox, closet scraping, whatever for your next peecee. if they don't catch on, they don't deserve to be around. witness compusa.

Not ignoring...

"It seems pointless to seek ideas and feedback if you're going to ignore and delete the opinions you don't like."

Clearly they saw those criticisms, so I don't think they're being totally ignored. I'm willing to bet they're well noted as the concerns of a vocal minority. And there's the rub... Dell doesn't HAVE to do jack sh*t just to appease a few Linux activists. Their main business is going to remain, for quite a while, wintel machines. As to their website, it's their website, they can do whatever the hell they want. Don't like it? Don't buy from them. Easy enough.

Misunderstanding Dell Idea Storm.

If the site was to gather Ideas to help Dell meet customer's needs and improve
their quality then it is indeed a failure.

If the site was to show Microsoft that the biggest gripes their customers have are with
Microsoft's products on Dell's systems and therefore Dell should be getting the products for free
or be payed to install them, then the site was a success.

Showing evidence that the second is the case on the site in question destroyes the leverage with Microsoft so must be removed. Remember Dell used to every year float the rumour of switching to AMD during their negotiations with intel and kept the lowest prices on intel parts for darn near a decade doing so. But intel had much more leverage with Dell than Microsoft does. For that decade AMD didn't have the capability to produce the volume Dell requires. There is no equivalent problem for Dell to move away from MS.

Microsoft needs dell more than dell needs microsoft. Corporate customers negotiate their own licenses with MS. Dell could stop selling any MS product and ship Linux to their home users and Microsoft loses huge. Dell is just afraid to support Linux on their systems. As it is now its easier to blame MS than to have to actually support a customer.

Calm Down

Is there a pattern? The article mentions one deleted post, but there are several on the Dell site that are not exactly flattering, to say the least. Lots of people just went off on an anti-Dell rant, and had nothing constructive to say at all.

Dell is right, in that it'll take a lot of work to get everything ready. If they sell it, they have to support it. That means training both sales and support staff; verifying what hardware has Linux drivers; etc. There is a LOT of work for them to do.

I've always thought Dell underestimated the Linux market. I know the last place I worked ordered about 10 Dell rack servers per month, without O/S. Debian was installed when we got them. However, Dell has two options on their order form: "No OS Installed - Microsoft Windows" and "No OS Installed - Red Hat Linux". Both are just there for "counting" purposes, since you don't get either OS with either option. It defaults to the Microsoft option, and I know our ordering personnel never bothered to change it. That skews their stats towards Windows and away from Linux.

I hate to say it

...but I don't think it's too far fetched to say that the post wasn't "censored" due to it's content, but due to it's tone. Maybe next time don't come out swinging with speculation... I believe the IdeaStorm website was meant to offer a forum for valuable feedback, not Dell-bashing because they don't offer your favorite pet OS.

That being said, you also have it look at it from Dell's perspective... if a very vocal minority representing a tiny fraction of your customer base offered up an "idea" and stuffed the ballot box to make it look larger than life, how seriously would you take it?

Frankly, my mom could care less if Linux came on a Dell... and if it did, she still wouldn't buy it because it probably wouldn't run AOL.

If she did buy it thinking she was saving a few bucks, she'd probably be rather upset that she couldn't find anything, it was completely different than what she used at work, and she could no longer sign onto her AOL email to send me another freaking hallmark eCard for St Patricks Day.

Happens all the time on company-sponsored forums.

Apple's discussion groups, to name one, just because I'm familiar with it.

"Censorship" is the wrong word because it refers to the removal of information by government officials, and as far as I know neither Apple nor Dell is the government, yet. (Not even Microsoft is the government. Yet.) I don't think the Terms and Conditions of company-sponsored forums generally include a Bill of Rights. Nor do they generally promise that you will be able to read everything that anyone else has posted.

Infuriating? Sure. Surprising? No. The forums are there to boost the company, and whenever any Forum becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the Corporation to alter or to abolish it.

(Remember Prodigy in the good old days? They would remove forum items as being "off-topic." Any attempt to discuss why the items were removed would be removed as "off-topic." Any attempt to criticize Prodigy in any way would be removed as "off-topic." And when users tried to get around the forum restrictions by organizing mailing lists, Prodigy promptly changed the previously-free email to twenty-five free emails per month, and a significant charge--$0.25 each, IIRC--for any beyond that!)

troll

The editors are feeding a troll again. Dell did not open this forum to get educated about the freedom of speech. They wanted people to tell them how they can "improve [their] products and services". Pretty clear, is it not? An inflammatory comment about their way of supporting GNU/Linux does not belong there. Read TFA, the author makes it sound like Dell is spitting on the GNU/Linux community by opting to (gasp) certify the hardware rather than install and support some random distribution.

Why is it "pointless"?

It seems pointless to seek ideas and feedback if you're going to ignore and delete the opinions you don't like.

It certainly is annoying to those, who posted the removed feedback, but it is not at all pointless for Dell to do so. They've received it and read it. They may remove it to make themselves look better (or try to, rather), or they may simply want to filter (what they perceive as garbage) out.

Their point may have've been to get ideas they would like — removing others may make sense.

Censor this

One man's censor is another man's editor.

I can't see why they bothered

The post in question is a semi-incoherent rant. If I didn't want to offer Linux, I'd keep it up and point to it, saying, "this is what we'd have to deal with if we supported Linux."

If he simply said that Dell reneged on a promise; or that it was making a mistake by not offering Linux preinstalls, I could see a nefarious PR motive behind dropping the post. But it sounds like it was written by a manic depressive who's of his meds.

Huh?

It seems pointless to seek ideas and feedback if you're going to ignore and delete the opinions you don't like.

Maybe it's pointless but everybody does it all the time. Half the time, if I say, "hey, what do you think of X?" I'm looking for, "X is really great, you did a good job on it." It's psychological, don't tell me you don't do the same.

Dell deleted a post linking to an article that criticizes its handling of the 'pre-installed Linux' issue.

Sounds to me that they deleted a post linking to a whiny bitch. Let's try this little summary mixer;

"It seems pointless to submit ideas and feedback to Dell if you're going to write a whiny article because they don't do exactly what you want."

Besides, Dell is a huge corporation. They're investigating a process to get their hardware approved by Linux distributers. For a huge corporation, that's a major undertaking... I'm sure whoever wrote that whiny article was looking for, "yes sir, we'll have those on shelves tomorrow!" as a response.

There are still no Linux laptops from anybody real

The reason this matters is that there are no Linux laptops available from any vendor bigger than a garage shop.

Yes, there's Linux Certified [linuxcertified.com], in the same building with Mr. Chau's Chinese Fast Food [yelp.com] in San Jose. And there's System76 [system76.com], whose address is a Pak Mail in Denver. [pakmail.com]

If you're selling hardware that may have to be maintained or replaced, you need to be bigger than that to play.

Of course, once upon a time there was VA Linux, but we know what happened to them. [wikipedia.org]

In Other News...

Slashdot posts frequently modded down to "-1, Flamebait", many /. users cry censorship... ... oh wait ...

Hardly.

Look at the ideastorm homepage. It's almost all opensource and/or linux posts. If they were censoring, there wouldn't be any. Maybe they just deleted a duplicate post?

Real Headline

shouldn't the headline read "Dell doesnt want to hear from whiny crab asses"

Let the market solve the problem

Sooner or later, Dell will either conform with consumer demand, or they will lose market share. Yes, Microsoft will continue to put up obstacles, but there's still enough competition in the hardware market that they can't control things forever. If you want evidence of this, take a look at the recent results of HP's choice to support Debian [internetnews.com].

Anyway, I don't blame them for deleting a troll post.

Deleted post was just a rant, but still...

The deleted post didn't have any suggestions. All it did was rag on Dell for apparently flip-flopping on preinstalls of Linux.

However, deleting the post was a mistake. It opens the door to accusations of insincerety, cover ups, astroturfing, and so forth. It could show Dell hasn't enough respect for freedom of speech, or is too arrogant and sure of themselves. No, of course they own the site and have every right to do anything they want with it. But that doesn't mean they should, or no one will visit. or believe in the sincerety of the posts. If Dell thinks it's okay to delete that post because it wasn't really suggesting anything, or was not constructive, what else might they in their sole opinion judge deserving of deletion? Filtering spam is one thing, but this post however unconstructive it was, was not spam. Why couldn't they set up another forum for rants or whatever, and simply move the post there? If whoever decided to delete that post ran for public office, I would not vote for that person, would you?

This incident suggests that Dell picked the wrong people to moderate their new forum. They sound like the sort of people who come down too heavy on the enforcement because they feel it's safer for their own jobs. They see how easily Mr. Dell could have them fired if the tone of the forums turns into mindless Dell bashing even if Mr. Dell never said or implied he would do any such thing, and how very difficult it would be for the deletion of a post from some random disgruntled poster to cause the same. These same people would certainly not be above a little astroturfing either. The boss wants this forum idea to work, and they're going to MAKE it work! So much for the credibility of that forum.

Dell say yes to linux ???

What about this interview
http://www.desktoplinux.com/news/NS3822185143.html [desktoplinux.com]

Dell replied, "We love Linux, and we're doing our best to support the Linux community. We see lots of opportunity there. If the Linux desktops could converge at their cores, such a common platform would make it easier to support. Or, if there was a leading or highly preferred version that a majority of users would want, we'd preload it." In the end, "we see [the Linux desktop] as a customer-driven activity. If customers want it, well, Dell will give it to them." One company has not played a role in Dell's Linux decisions. "Microsoft has not talked to us about Linux. If they did, I wouldn't care. It's none of their business," concluded Dell.

It seems we have our answer.

inflammatory idea

I didn't read the post (getting better at this /. thing) but I'd imagine that an inflammatory article wasn't particularly helpful to the idea process... in fact in my experience, something like that generally means the person is lacking in the idea department but has to say something anyway. In this case it seems the equivalent of suggesting the variable "dog" for a program about banking. Next thing you know you have a bunch of clutter and comments about a dog that just aren't necessary and just slow the programming down. Personally I'm quite alright with them removing something totally useless from their idea board.

Has Dell Ever Really Supported Linux

Seems like we get all excited about some linux strategy or other over there and then they come out a week later and say "No no we're not really doing that for YOU! Just our customers whose sales figures look like a phone number."

From my personal experience we don't need no freaking support from them anyway. The last Dell laptop I used didn't completely blow donkey balls when I installed Linux on it. I was able to get high resolution, the docking station, wireless and the ethernet cards to work and was able to spin the fans up from sofware for when I ran Wine (Which always seems to want to cause a meltdown.) It also didn't give me third degree penis burns when I tried to use it in my lap. You always had plenty of warning when Wine was heating the machine up to penis boiling temperatures.

I don't see why their company policy with Linux can't just be "Probably won't suck donkey balls. Won't boil your penis," and leave it at that. I mean really, we're linux people, what more do we really need?

Of course these days I'm quite happy with the PPC Powermac I use. It never gets more than warm, wireless and ssh worked right out of the box and I didn't feel a burning urge to replace the OS the moment I turned it on. So sorry, Dell, even though your product doesn't suck donkey balls and doesn't boil my penis, the guys with the black tee shirts and the hair mousse still win.

Dell's F--Up

I have owned and run a few computer companies. The first thing you learn is that word of mouth is worth it's weight in GOLD! Provided it is good word of mouth, bad word or mouth can kill a small company. With the advent of the internet, companies are now closer to there customer base than ever before. No longer can they ignore the customer, treat the customer like crap, etc. As they continue to enter into this space they will have to adjust their thinking. Change the way they respond and act towards the customer and provide GOOD customer service. Proper customer service and utilizing the advantages of the internet can truly change the way a business is perceived.

For now they are on a learning curve. They have not been a small business in many years and they now have to relearn what they have lost. (Customer service) A note here, if Dell wanted help in this area I can show them the In's and Out's for a price. :)

To the people who have used the excuse that Linux is only 2% of the computer world. That means that the number of Linux users in the US alone is in the neighborhood of 4 Million!
Based on 2% of the HOME computers in the US! If a market of 4 million users is too small for Dell, Dell NEEDS to go under!

Um... its still there

I'm calling Bullshit. Its still there [dellideastorm.com] About 2/3 of the way down the page. People really need to do just a little research before comming to these assumptions. It just got bumbed off the main page on the hacked down main page because they cant fit all of the comments there.