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HP's Windows Bundle Trouble
Posted by
Zonk
on Fri Dec 15, 2006 07:21 PM
from the i'm-sorry-please-enter-your-option-again dept.
from the i'm-sorry-please-enter-your-option-again dept.
narramissic writes "A French consumer group has filed 3 lawsuits against HP, saying the company's practice of selling consumer PCs with Windows pre-installed violates a French law that 'prohibits linking the functionality of a product to another product' — not to mention that consumers wind up paying for an unwanted OS. For its part, HP contends that it is not in violation of the law because the OS is integral to the PC. 'The PC without an OS is not a product because it doesn't work,' said Alain Spitzmuller, legal affairs director for HP France. 'We believe the market is for products that work.'"
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Foot, may I introduce... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Foot, may I introduce... (Score:5, Funny)
Unfortunately, it works very well. As a host for botnets, for example.
Re:Foot, may I introduce... (Score:5, Funny)
(since their mothers' basements do not have any)
Isn't that what got IBM into hot water? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Isn't that what got IBM into hot water? (Score:5, Informative)
There is a difference there. OS X and the Mac are both made by Apple. However HP doesn't make Windows. They require you to purchase it, but they don't make it. I think that's what makes this illegal (I live in the US, so obviously I don't know this law). It's the fact that it's two parties. The HP computer won't function without another company's product, but they don't give you a choice as to which company (MS, or buy a Linux distro or something else).
It has a bios, doesn't it? (Score:5, Insightful)
It may not have all the functionality that someone wants, but it does work.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
That being said, I do agree that PC manufacturers need to offer choice of oper
Tank != 3-year supply (Score:4, Interesting)
BIOS is a tank of gas. Windows is a 3-year gas card to one brand of gas station.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Reboot and Select proper Boot Device (Réinitialisation et dispositif approprié choisi d'initialisation )
Don't you think he might call HP and say "My
Re:It has a bios, doesn't it? (Score:5, Interesting)
At the very least, they should give the user a choice, thereby no longer linking the hardware to that one specific piece of software. Consider one of those online confur-o-matic things. The base PC models should come with a cheaper/free OS like linux, and (as much as I hate and disagree with the phrasing) users could choose to "upgrade" to windows.
We believe the market is for products that work (Score:5, Funny)
More specifically, (Score:5, Informative)
In addition to this while the EULA specifically mentions a refunding process, resellers won't honour it.
Both the ministry of commerce and the bureau in charge of the consumer protection have given advice on the matter to the effect that the OS and the PC are two distinct products and that the sale of one cannot be bound to the other. So normally any PC for sale should have its price listed as X + Y + Z where X is the machine, Y the OS and possibly Z the extra software. However since the resellers won't comply, the courts will have to sort it out.
Bad analogy (Score:5, Insightful)
"doesn't work" (Score:4, Interesting)
In other news, auto dealers are now obliged to sell cars with all the gasoline they'll ever need to run, CD players must come with the complete works of modern music prepackaged (RIAA fees included), and TV sets have to carry recordings of all future programmes to be aired.
Not a bad arguement (Score:3, Insightful)
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I'm with HP/MS on this one. (Score:5, Insightful)
I think HP should sell PCs that come with other OSes (or even no OS at all) - simply because I think there is a market worth taking there. However I don't think it's for any government or "consumer group" to try and force this on a company.
To look at it another way, there are plenty of PC manufacturers that solely sell PCs with DVD writers, monitors, keyboards and/or mice. Just like an OS, none of those things are *needed* in the strictest sense, yet nobody seems to be up in arms (or rather up in lawsuits) about that.
While I've greatly enjoyed watching the anti-trust decisions go against Microsoft in the EU in recent years, it seems that those legitimate victories for consumer rights are now being turned into a witch-hunt by various organisations in Europe who see the anti-MS sentiment as a means to get their hands into Microsoft's very deep pockets.
Also, A DVD player without DVD is not a product... (Score:5, Interesting)
A DVD player without a TV is not a product, because it doesn't work...
A toy without batteries is not a product, because it doesn't work...
While you need to go to a store to buy batteries and DVD for your non-products,
for an OS, you may not even need to go to the store. You could download one of many free Linux (or BSD or other) OS's many of which do not even need to be installed to function.
Perhaps batteries are not the best comparison.
Re:Also, A DVD player without DVD is not a product (Score:3, Insightful)
yes it does. You turn it on, you get a screen on the TV, and you even get an indcator that you don't have a disk.
"A DVD player without a TV is not a product, because it doesn't work.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Assuming HP shipped you a PC with absolutely no O.S. installed, how exactly wou
Hey HP heres an idea (Score:5, Funny)
WHICH OPERATING SYSTEM DO YOU WANT PRE-INSTALLED
( ) Windows (add $99)
( ) Red Hat Linux (add $39)
( ) Suse (add $39)
( ) NONE
And your point? (Score:3, Insightful)
So he is just trying to imply that the only thing that fits the definition of a PC OS is Windows. I call Shenanigans.
This is great (Score:3, Interesting)
Cell phones that force us to use Symbian OS instead of letting us roll our own. Cars that are bundled with Renault engines instead of letting us install one from Abarth.
hell, why not just make it illegal to assemble anything from components and let us build it ourselves.
Then their system will be as tort happy as ours and we will regain some of the advantages we lost. Viva la France - Libertie, Egalitie, Unbundletie!!!
Lies, damned lies, and astro-turfing. (Score:5, Interesting)
-
First is the presumption that a computer (shipped) without an OS is useless... I can pop in a Knoppix disk and do most of the things that people use their computers for without installing any OS -- banking, messaging, skype, word processing, photo editing, etc., etc.,
... His statement is false.
- second is that that that Windows is the only OS that anybody would ever want.
- third is the implicit claim of the (many) astro-turfers that this suit is meant to prevent HP from selling computers with MS-Windows.... From TFA:
Nothing wrong with consumers buying an HP computer with Windows, as long as that's what they want (which will be the case for many -- but not all -- consumers).
It's more like if every major hospital in the country forced children born there to be baptized as Roman Cathoic -- and required that the parents pay a tithe to the Roman Catholic Church for the 'privilege'.Now, yes, you can turn around and have the child declared Baptist, Lutheran, Jewish or Muslim, etc., but you still won't get back the $75 that went to the RC church.... and, for some people, just having the taint of the RC church on their children is almost as bad as being declared pagan. -- and, for some people, explaining to your parents back home why their grandchild's Birth Certificate says Roman Catholic is going to be, uhm, delicate.
Of course you also have the option of having your child born at home, but some people really like the convenience and safety of a large hospital.
[I'm RC, myself, so I can (I hope) get away with this analogy.]
ACCC (Score:5, Insightful)
If simply all computer vendors were legally obliged to itemise the computer and operating system in all advertising, *and* make the operating system optional, it would immediately level the playing field for all competitors.
Our government departments are, indeed, in Microsoft's pocket. Heck, our entire country is in America's pocket.
Product Support (Score:4, Insightful)
If grandma has a choice between:
A) Desktop + Windows for $800
B) Desktop + Linux for $600
At that point, HP's costs increase trying to support Grandma, or HP risks seriously upsetting a customer and possibly getting into further legal troubles. It's a lose-lose for HP and Grandma.
A business should never have be forced to give its customers a choice. If it makes business sense to only bundle Windows, then it should be free to do that. Let someone else sell a Linux box, take the risk, and see what happens.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
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that is completly wrong and shows that you have complete ignorance no how computers work.
Hint: you can start a computer without an OS, and it works, otherwise how could you install an OS?
As for your pizza count
Re: (Score:3)
A computer without an OS is not functional. An OS without a computer is not functional. It's a stupid law.
How functional is a DVD-player without a DVD ? Or a CD-player without a CD ?
Is it OK if all DVD-players included a a copy of the Lion King. And all C
Insightful? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Complicated things? (Score:5, Informative)
In (Soviet) Finland, it's illegal to bind the sales of cell phones to a certain network. It's exactly the same logic as with computers and operating systems.
It isn't really applied to computers though; when I bought my current laptop last year, I made a vague attempt at Windows refund, only to get a reply along the lines that computer+OS is a single product. I'm mainly pissed off of the fact that this probably counts for the Windows market share, even if I never accepted the EULA.
However, there is a recent exception to allow such binding for 3G phones. It's meant to accelerate the adoption of new technology, since the 3G phones are comparatively expensive. So instead of paying the full price of the phone, it's spread over a, say, 24-month service contract.
Re:Refund? (Score:4, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Interesting. I had no idea that staring at "O/S Not Found" was that interesting. Do tell me more.
You might not care for HP's choice of OS, but a PC needs an OS or it just doesn't work. You're fre
Re:He's an idiot (Score:4, Insightful)
Well, one thing I can do with a computer without an OS on it is to install and run an OS on it. The OS is no more integral to the computer than the computer is to the monitor. You could equally well have said "I had no idea that staring at a blank screen with the DVI cord unplugged was that interesting". By your logic, since the monitor is useless by itself, the computer and the monitor clearly can't be separate products.
Thousands of products are unusable unless combined with another product: a flash light delivered without batteries; a trailer without a car to drag it; a bucket of paint without a brush; a fridge without food in it. The list goes on forever.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
And which laymen consider "not working", or at best "working too hard".
Do you honestly think it sho
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
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Put another way, if my computer smokes and I already own a valid Windows license, it seems reasonable that I should be able to buy a replacement PC from the same manufacturer sans Windows and install my existing licensed copy. That said, I would hope that
Re:He's an idiot (Score:5, Insightful)
No, I think it should be mandated that computers can be purchased OS-free for a price that is less than the price of one with the OS by a difference of the retail price of the OS. I think people should have the choice.
Re:He's an idiot (Score:5, Insightful)
You might not like paying for Windows in some way, but in effect it lowers the cost of your PC, odd as it may sound.
Either pay more (or at worst get no reduction in cost), or just nuke windows off the drive when you get it.
Re:He's an idiot (Score:5, Insightful)
That is absolutely ridiculous! HP doesn't pay retail price for every copy of Windows they put on their computers so why should they dock that price?
Having Windows XP on a new computer probably only raises the price $10-$25 if even that much.
Re:He's an idiot (Score:5, Funny)
That may explain why this French consumer group is suing HP instead of Newegg.
Re:He's an idiot (Score:4, Informative)
This lawsuit isn't just aimed at HP. Once HP is forced to sell their machines with a choice of Windows or not, all it will take is a whisper from my lawyer to get a similarly egalitarian treatment from Dell, Gateway and any of the other Tier 1 and Tier 2 computer manufacturers.
It's one thing to recommend MS-Windows as the OS of choice. It's something else, entirely, to mandate MS-Windows.
I just shouldn't be punished by HP for not wanting to use the OS that they want to hoist on me. That's what tying is, and it's illegal.Re:He's an idiot (Score:5, Insightful)
No. The difference is that an operating system runs on the computer. It isn't a necessary part. You could netboot the computer, or boot it off of a CD. Both are perfectly legitimate reasons for wanting to be able to buy a computer OS-free.
Re:CAR ANALOGY ALERT! (Score:4, Funny)
Re:He's an idiot (Score:5, Informative)
Re:He's an idiot (Score:5, Interesting)
So? His statement is still false.
Even if you make the assumption that the OS is a required part of the computer, there's still no reason they should only bundle Windows. They offer a variety of case designs to choose from. nVidia or ATI graphics cards to choose from. AMD or Intel processors to choose from. So why no choice on operating system?
Re:He's an idiot (Score:5, Insightful)
No, I disagree. Every desktop oriented Linux distro in the world would be scrambling for a chance to be OEM installed on consumer PCs. And given the choice between an HP with Windows for $1000 and an identical HP with Linux for $600, I think most consumers would pick Linux every time. Assuming the in store Linux HP machines weren't purposely rigged to look bad, I think most non-gaming consumers would realize that OpenOffice, Firefox, Gaim, and Thunderbird meet all their requirements.
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OK, I can leave this thread now... (Score:4, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Please Let us In! Please! I beg of you!
FRENCH GUARD:
Go Avay or I will fart in your general direction!