911 Call Tracking Site Stirs Concern 239
Frosty Piss writes, "This story comes from the Seattle Post-Intellegencer. For the past year, John Eberly has operated Seattle911.com, a site that until this week took real-time feeds of 911 calls from the Seattle Fire Department and plotted them on Google Maps. But on learning of Eberly's site, officials cited 'security concerns' and altered the way they display 911 calls on their Web site, changing the format from text to graphical, preventing Eberly from acquiring the raw data. (Several programmers are quoted musing how trivial it would be to work around this evasion.) Fire officials worry that allowing others to display where fire crews are on an Internet map could make things easier if terrorists were planning an attack. That logic left Eberly and others scratching their heads, as the information continues to be publicly available on the Fire Department's site. 'We're not obligated to provide this information. It's something that we did for customer service in the first place,' a Fire Department spokesperson said. So is this public information? Should the data be available to the public in real time?" The Seattle P-I story ends with a quote from Bruce Schneier: "The government is not saying, 'Hey, this data needs to be secret,' they are saying, 'This data needs to be inconvenient to get to.'"
Beware of the Leopard (Score:5, Funny)
"On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them."
"That's the display department."
"With a torch."
"Ah, well the lights had probably gone."
"So had the stairs."
"But look, you found the notice didn't you?"
"Yes," said Arthur, "yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying Beware of the Leopard."
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Unsure what to make of this (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Unsure what to make of this (Score:5, Insightful)
All the typical poli behaviours are here on display -- denial, obfuscation, evasion and just plain old lying.
Re:Unsure what to make of this (Score:5, Informative)
But feel free to deny that the problem exists. After all, downtown Seattle certainly does look pretty cosmopolitan. Obviously we've solved or are solving all of our issues. But if that were true why are all business types afraid to be downtown at roughly 8:00 PM when the 'youths' come out?
There are tens of thousands of meth junkies alone in downtown Seattle. That is why petty theft, car thefts, and car breakins in Seattle are among the highest in the country. But we wouldn't want to let anyone know about them in case it damaged real estate values would we? Nor would we want people to know that the homeless go from downtown Seattle in the day to the U-district at night to search through trash. If you want to get a better count of the homeless population feel free to check the I-5 underpasses at night (if you are brave enough). Check out Green Lake. Have fun.
Re:Unsure what to make of this (Score:4, Informative)
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It happens in the US as well, though I'm not sure how common it is. (The nature of the thing makes it really prone to urban legends.) The ones you hear about are gangs, who use guns rather than stones. They'll also call 911 and report fake medical emergencies to lure ambulances. Since most emergency crews show up with a police escort - at least partially for just this reason; I'm told that paramedics are instructed not to get out of the ambulance until the cops arrive - they also order pizza or Chinese.
Re:Unsure what to make of this (Score:5, Insightful)
I fail to see what purpose it serves to remove the googlemaps of the same data
I doubt that terrorists are that much less technical than the people of the seattle911.com site.
The only reason I can see with keeping the data public(on the 911 web site, not the seattle911.com one) might be public access to information laws or some other regulatory issue. If the information is public, let seattle911.com do whatever it wants with it. If the goal is to prevent terrorism, don't MASK the information, take it off the 911 web site too.
We aren't talking about an intranet here.
The public servants are alrady at risk, since it's PUBLIC information.
The only reason I can see to keep the info public, but not let seattle911.com use it, is that if seattle911.com is ad-based, and they don't want the seattle911.com to benefit for free, from this information. But in that case, that's what a cease and desist letter is for.
If it really is that risky for the public servants, why isn't the information better protected? How is publicising the info on only one site that much less safe than on two?
Re:Unsure what to make of this (Score:5, Informative)
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It might be possible to wait for many of the emergency vehicles to be on one side of the city and then start a fire on the other side of the city.
Re:Unsure what to make of this (Score:4, Insightful)
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B.
OMGZ!!! Teh terrorists are taking Seattle! (Score:5, Insightful)
That's why we haven't got Bin L. yet in the mountains of over Middle East way- he's operating out of the Cascades!
OMG! I'm crawling into my shelter here in Oklahoma right now! *sarcasm off*
WTF? Terrorists responding to fires?- give 'em a hose and let them help fight the fires!
We know that they would not be smart enough to use a scanner, use their ears and follow the sirens, watch the frikken news- but heaven help us if they have access to Google Earth!
Damn, the insanity in this country is starting to drive me crazy.
Re:Unsure what to make of this (Score:5, Interesting)
Funny, that can be done _without_ computers _or_ 911 tracking.
These guys are just worried that someone might point to poor performance. That's all. It's entirely _cya_.
--
BMO
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I'm sure that's part of it, but it's more a matter of Control Your Ass, meaning they want to control our asses insofar as we are accessing what they consider to be "their" information. It's not
Re:Unsure what to make of this (Score:5, Insightful)
Secondly, there's no need to wait for such placement; it'd be trivial to simply engineer that situation with a few 911 calls / events of your own.
Personally, I'd say they're offended that their "cool tool" got one-upped.
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Exactly. Even the Columbine guys knew how to do that already. Before their rampage, they had set up a small fire bomb in a field half a mile away from the school to tie up emergency response.
Re:Unsure what to make of this (Score:5, Insightful)
In Seattle? In any large city with widely dispersed fire and police resources? That better be one Hell of a fire if everyone in the whole fuckin' city is there...
Anyway, many people are asking WHY someone would need this info, but that's the wrong question. The question should be "why shouldn't they have it"? And from the story, clearly they still do have it, just not from this guy's site. The city still has this info up on their site.
And why do most people who are interested in this stuff want access to it? The same reason people buy scanners, because it's interesting to follow what's going on.
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The have a default answer nowadays: Terroists.
The question is now, how is it a usefull tool to terrorists? The answer is "it's not". Terrorists are attempting to orchestrate the mayhem, this tool mearly allows them to watch the response.
A common statergy with terrorists (eg: AQ, Isreal) is to attck twice in the same spot. Once to get the target, the second time to get the responders. AFAIK, "wait 20-30min" is not a fucking secret!
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I want to give the City of Seattle time to react since most of the press about this was published over the weekend. If I implement the "work around" on my site right away, it doesn't help the majority of people who go directly to the source, and don't use my site.
I hope that the city will reverse their original knee-jerk decision and put up the text feed again. We all need to get practical with our security concerns.
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Re:Unsure what to make of this (Score:5, Insightful)
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If you want to do some kind of terrorist act where you do something in repsonse to the firemen, you simply set up the first event.
Not terrorism--just simple opportunistic crime (Score:2)
Re:Not terrorism--just simple opportunistic crime (Score:4, Informative)
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Inconvienient? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Inconvienient? (Score:4, Insightful)
If this were true, then almost everything that the US govt has done to prevent terrorism would be a mistake. Oh, wait....
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My ex girlfriend had this side gate on her house which was hard to open but not locked. He housemate insisted that I put a lock on it so I did. Didn't bother me because I always just stepped over the gate rather than trying to open the bloody thing. She sees a potential thief as being like herself but I think the thief is going to be more like me, ie, able to step over a 1 metre hig
Re:Inconvienient? (Score:4, Insightful)
It really does not matter if it works or not.
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Why do we need it? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Why do we need it? (Score:4, Funny)
You call that a tracheotomy?
Maybe I'm spending too much time w/med students, though.
Re:Why do we need it? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Why do we need it? (Score:4, Insightful)
Its a shame that the people running the system are too worried about public perception and politics instead of thinking about the problem.
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Yeah. It's just nuts.
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The data isn't normalized so response dispatchments to the same place can be peppered throuh the data. Mapping the data greatly simplifies
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Re:Why do we need it? (Score:4, Insightful)
So the GPS tranceivers in emergency vehicles can provide data so that alternate routes for other road users can be made to permit safer emergency travel, and less stops and inconveniences for the remainder of road users.
Eventually, when cars are automatic, such a feedback loop will be a natural part of the road navigation process. This will increase efficiency, decrease traffic congestions and decrease travel times for all concerned.
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911 feeds? (Score:2, Insightful)
But on the other hand, if they were releasing the information, I don't see anything wrong with someone actually using the data. The shock to me is that they were releasing it publicly...in real time to begin with.
Transporter_ii
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The general rational (Score:2)
Like that one kid's thesis detailing the layout of internet backbone cables, or back in the day when basic nuclear theory was available in public texts, but was still considered a gov't secret.
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You don't have to have a lot of information to reach that point
Paranoid Seattle Buses (Score:5, Interesting)
I asked, "Why not?!"
He said, "I'm actually supposed to report you to the police, if you do. Terrorism."
"What are they going to do, reverse engineer the bus timetables from photographic evidence? This can't possibly make us any safer."
He replied, "Well, who's to say."
Who's to say indeed.
Absolutely absurd.
Note that busview [busview.org] will give you the location of all Metro busses in real time.
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Re:Paranoid Seattle Buses (Score:4, Insightful)
Not being allowed to take pics used to be part of the "evil" communist russia. Now, it is part of the paranoid america. Congratulations americans, you are slowly turning into the same totalitarian regime like soviet union. All under the umbrela of fear and "security". And the sad part is no one is ready to stand up against this cancerous mutation of your constitution.
Yes, anything can be turned into an argument... (Score:4, Insightful)
"The government is not saying, 'Hey, this data needs to be secret,' they are saying, 'This data needs to be inconvenient to get to.'"
Now they just need to apply the same logic to their lists of gun owners.
make it available delayed then (Score:3, Insightful)
Why? (Score:2)
If a fire broke out at my apartment complex, I don't want to know five minutes from now, I want to know right fucking now. If there's been a shooting at my (hypothetical) kid's school, I don't want to know five minutes from now, I want to know NOW. What makes "public city officials" more special than the rest of us when it comes to information that could be used to adequately protect our families and friends better than the spread-thin pu
Re:Why? - What are YOU going to do about it? (Score:2)
Is your right to know that your porn collection is going up in flames "right now" more important than giving away "potentially" useful information of where first-repsonders are, "right now"?
Of course, if I were a terrorist, I would have no problem setting an
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Cos you're not a public servant, so you turning up ('my kid is in there') might make things worse. Or are you superman, so your arrival makes it all better, unlike those '
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Awesome Info! (Score:4, Funny)
You could do that to begin with, but now you can plot your course to string everyone out better and more efficently.
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Better yet, ban fire. Then send GWB to arrest some volcanoes.
911 calls are public record (Score:2)
In many places 911 calls are public record. Also, when the police are called (even if it's not 911), those reports are often public record.
I'm not sure if it applies to this Seattle or not, but it should be easy enough to find out. Here there are several public web sites where you can look at current fire/ems/traffic activity [lancaster.pa.us] or city police incident reports [lancasterpolice.com]. Both sites contain information available to the public by other means, and providing it on a web site helps to cut down on paper information reque
There is no way it should be real-time. (Score:2, Insightful)
There is no way that 911 call information should be available at anything approaching real-time data.
They want to make the information available for customer service purposes then good, put it on a 24hr delay.
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Check out http://www2.seattle.gov/fire/realTime911/getDateP
cheers,
alex
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Why? Because of some undifferentiated and vague idea of some bad outcome? What about a worse outcome because somebody didn't know about a fire at their house? What problem are you trying to solve with secrecy?
Was that really Bruce? (Score:2)
Isn't that exactly what 'secret' data is meant to be. From what I understand of basic information theory is that you cannot completely secure data, there will always - eventually - be a path to it, information security's job is to make it so inconvenient for an unauthorised person to get to, that by the time they reach it, it will be worthless. They only to permanently stop someone from learning a piece of data is to totally destroy it. (this is why encryption
used to be "due to liability" its now "terrorist" (Score:2, Insightful)
That implied some kind of financial damage if you did not listen.
Now the standard has changed to "terrorist threat". Imagine being sent to GitBay, shipped to Syria and tortured, and imprisoned forever. That is a hell of a lot more efficient.
I have noticed that in the US nobody dear to
1. Cross the line into the garage to look at
Re:used to be "due to liability" its now "terroris (Score:2)
2) Most shopping carts have a place to put your child, speaking as a former retail employee I suggest you use it. Most people who let their kids ride in the basket of the cart seem to forget what happens when they take their eyes of of it and the child stands up and moves, shifting the weight of the cart that only had thr
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He's talking about a service station. "Garage" is British for service station. When you're getting work done on your car, most service stations have a sign that says something like, "Due to insurance regulations, customers are not allowed on the shop floor."
is it really the terrorists (Score:2)
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Do you want your boss (and everyone else inthe office) to know that you were a victim of spousal abuse last night? Or would you rather keep that to yourself?
"Security Reasons" (Score:3, Insightful)
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HIPAA (Score:2, Informative)
Publically disseminating private emergency call information in realtime can compromise a fire scene investigation and open medical responders up to HIPAA http://http//www.hhs.gov/ocr/hipaa/ [http] violation lawsuits. A patient's PHI (Personal/Private Health Information) includes any
Terrorists, huh (Score:3, Insightful)
By the same logic, websites that show traffic conditions [wa.gov] should be shut down too. Well, ya, terrorists can make sure they don't get stuck in parking lot on the I-5.
Oz
Some information *SHOULD* be hard to get (Score:2)
Knowing programming in 'governmental' institutions (Score:2)
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It's fire season already in Victoria, Australia (Score:2, Informative)
I am John Eberly (Score:5, Informative)
Getting tired... (Score:5, Insightful)
I suspect that I'm not the only one whose getting tired of hearing about taking this or taking that away because we're concerned about Terrorists. Terrorism is real, it sucks rocks, but we're living in those times where conventional wars apparently are a thing of the past. We have to get over it and get on with life.
How long are we going to let FUD hang over us and control us? If there's a non-terrorism reason, like you've got alot of people using the data to follow the emergency services and get in the way while gawking at what's going on, then yes, change the policy. Don't throw up a nebulous excuse that 'terrorists will use it!' Then we all go duck and cover and hope we don't get blown up.
Too many people have fought and died for our freedoms. Are we so frightened now, that those lives are meaningless, and we should give up our hard-won freedoms for the illusion of safety?
[/rant]
Sorry. I'm just getting tired of it.
The worst part is if your house is burning down (Score:4, Interesting)
Especially if you're blind or vision-disabled, as graphics won't work properly with their new system.
So, if you're a blind Seattleite, it's NOT an "improvement".
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"It shouldn't be available"? (Score:5, Interesting)
"If we're not a first responder, why do we need the info in real time? "
"'ll have to start out by saying I'm amazed such information was ever available"
"Is it important to know, in real-time, where emergency crews are? "
"There is no way that 911 call information should be available at anything approaching real-time data"
This is completely ass-backwards.
There should be no need for me to prove that data, _any_ government data, should be available to me.
The government needs to prove there is a compelling reason for them not to make it available.
This sort of data serves some useful purposes and some not so useful purposes, in terms of tracking allocation of resources, seeing where hotspots are, knowing where that firetruck that just roared past you is going, and yes, pure entertainment.
The governments "counter-argument" consists of bogeymen in a closet.
The idea that anyone could come down on side of the government in this case is, to me, a sad commentary on the willingness of the populace to accept any old excuse that limits their access to the workings of their government.
-ajb
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Why should the two be differentiated?
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I used to work for the local road authority. We published real time information on traffic accidents so that people could avoid dangerous and congested roads.
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explanation (Score:4, Insightful)
Really, this is government public business, the public has every right in the world to be informed of it, absolutely no different from any joe citizen can go sit in on court to any case you want if there's room in the pews.. no different at all, really.
This is allegedly a government by and for the people, not by and for the 1% connected elite and their hired on order taking and following drones. We had a revolution over that bit, remember?
Government is supposed to hold only a few cards with our express permission, everything else IS our business and THEY work at our suffrance, as our employees. I, for one, am SICK AND TIRED of government-as-masters and overlords who assume everything is theirs by default and you must grovel before them. As the expression goes, F dat shyte! They have just usurped all the powers and now make you beg for it, and whenever they find out you are using your born with rights they get all bent out of shape and want to take it away or sell you "permission" or something. Screw that! We tell them what to do, not the other way around! This ain't a massah/slave deal, none of that plantation action, no thanks!
Giving into this "everything revolves around terrorism" stuff is pure grade-A brainwashed crapola. You are a smart guy, you *really* don't believe all this hysteria crap they have whipped up to control the mouth breathers, do you? I understand the 'tards swallowing it because they think pro rasslin' is real, but not anyone normal who is reasonably intelligent. You can see through it for the extreme power grab and consolidation it really is? The Heglian Dialectic angle? Think about it, really think, imagine you are joe terrorist.. Anyone with a room temp IQ and above, with "tools" available at any qucikstore starting with a cig ligter, working completely alone, could go around the country and commit "acts of terrorism" on a daily schedule. And get away with it. Assymetrical warfare, pretty easy stuff really. So--where's the beef, where are all the attacks from the "OMG fundy islamofascist tarists sleeper cells all over gonna steal our freedom fries and rape the cattle!". Well??? Where are all the attacks?? There aren't any except for over were THEIR nations are being invaded, which is more or less understanable given the context of them..being invaded.
Maybe we have had one or two-maybe-I am still not convinced yet, to me it looks a lot more like a government reichstagg fire inside job.. the evidence we can see points way more to it being an inside job, using some stupid patsies at best.
Anyway, this "terrorism" jazz is primarily pushed for and by the coup plotters and those who profit from this coup takeover, and it really *is* a coup that has happened. They use "terrorist" as this generations buzzword to induce and perpetuate fear, uncertainty and doubt.
It's a scam, man, really, a freakin' scam...
Re:I don't get get it. (Score:5, Informative)
> I'll have to start out by saying I'm amazed such information was ever available. I'm just surprised anyone would think to post that for people.
> I have to say I'm with the government on this one. Why does anyone need to know exactly where all the 911 calls are coming from in real time?
You forget that this data is provided BY the government; the government is NOT saying they don't want this public, nor realtime; they are saying that they do not want a 3rd party to one-up their text-based webpage with a google map on a different site. Note well that the government response was NOT taking down the data; the response was to thwart the parsing of it.
So, you are not "with the government" on this one! (and, right or wrong isn't relevent; you simply do NOT agree with them.)
> I can understand why such data should be available, but why not give it a 24 hour delay? There are just SO many uses for this data for evil (where you can torch a house, when you can steal something with few cops nearby, where you can go to ambulance chase the most successfully, etc.)
Again, this isn't relevent to TFA, which discusses someone's use of the data; that the data is "realtime" has no bearing, and this "someone" is merely re-posting data that is publicly provided by the 911 center. The "use for evil" isn't even limited to a realtime feed, either. To ban any data on realtime emergency response means that there must also be a corresponding "news blackout" - after all, as an evil supervillan, I can wait for the fire dept to be stretched with 5 structure fires that drains the district (as you suggest)... or I can wait for a 5 alarm fire, a single large event that drains the district. Oddly, the 5 distinct fires won't make the news. But the big mega-fire will - with live coverage, helicopter-cams, the works, and the whole universe is going to know about it. And I can tell you... the 5 alarmer is a LOT more dangerous (from a complexity standpoint) than 5 distinct calls... if our supervillan wishes to "sneak under the radar", odds are much better during the chaos of the single, large, harder-to-manage event.
So, if this realtime data should be hidden... we likewise need a press blackout. No "live coverage" during fires, no reports of traffic accidents during our treks to work and home. Otherwise, we flatly contradict our reason for "no realtime data", I'm afraid.
A lot of people question why realtime data would be relevent in the first place... and I can tell from the tone of your post, your gut is crawling with the potential for abuse.
But, the data already readily available. It goes across the radio as a dispatch, and for $20 you can listen in. And as mentioned earlier, larger events are on the TV and radio. Of your examples (which are good)... putting this data on the internet enables *nothing*, any more than removing it from the internet *prevents* anything. You can't think of a single reason someone would need this data... I must ask, can you think of one action that removing this data is going to thwart? Just one? Don't feel bad if you can't... I can't, either.
For a 911 center, posting the data would be wonderful. It enables all of the value-adds with no labor on your part - radio station traffic reports, news agencies, even TomTom updates. You can facilitate all that crap, and even have some control over the wording of the information (which is huge, believe me). Or, you can force these same parties to scrape radio traffic for audio snippets, and then deal with the Absolute Joy of them paraphrasing 2nd-hand information that is completely without context. As a 911 center, you can choose one or the other. And, it doesn't seem to be a tough choice. Banning such data to "businesses" is downright silly... since all that does is create an artificial barrier to entry for the hobbiest / amateur-developer-who-wants-to-start-something. And believe me, the bulk of the GOOD fire-service software comes from such pe
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Re:Bandwidth (Score:4, Interesting)
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It's agreed they're stupid for "making it harder" to do what you do when it's obvious you're providing a service for them in all reality.
That was the artistic value of my post. It was a (debatably good or bad) satire whose purpose was to illustrate how ridiculas their argument was by creating even more ridiculas arguments.