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iPod Users Buy CDs, Shun iTunes

Posted by kdawson on Sat Sep 16, 2006 09:21 PM
from the what-part-of-"my-music"-do-you-not-understand? dept.
twitter writes, "The BBC's summarizes a Jupiter Research study, 'iPod fans shunning iTunes store.' From the article: '83% of iPod owners do not buy digital music regularly... only 5% of the music on an iPod will be bought from online music stores. The rest will be from CDs the owner of an MP3 player already has or tracks they have downloaded from file-sharing sites... [T]he only salient characteristic shared by all owners of portable music players was that they were more likely to buy more music — especially CDs.' This is despite years of iTunes promotion and apparent success. Given the outright failure of other music services, it is clear that users prefer DRM-free music, and are willing to pay for it and take the trouble to rip it."

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[+] Students Skip College Music Services 246 comments
WSJdpatton writes "College students don't turn down much that's free. But when it comes to online music, even free hasn't been enough to persuade many students to use the digital download services colleges and universities are providing." I know that the Ctrax service offered by my current school — Temple University — and many others (it's "available to all college students with a '.edu' email address") has an ugly, awkward interface. Worse, the free (gratis) part is an expiring, "tethered" collection of music for those who use it; downloads to keep are fee-per-track.
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  • DRM is a hassle (Score:5, Insightful)

    by BWJones (18351) * on Saturday September 16 2006, @09:23PM (#16122644)
    (http://prometheus.med.utah.edu/~bwjones/ | Last Journal: Friday November 09, @08:01PM)
    This is exactly what I have been doing since the beginning of iTunes. DRM on my music simply does not satisfy for a number of reasons including 1) quality (I can tell the difference). 2) It's a hassle to have to deal with the inability of others on my subnet to not be able to listen to (share) the DRM encoded songs. 3) I already had a huge amount of music on CD and have relied on ripping to iTunes as a back up means.

    Interestingly, iTunes has increased my music purchases significantly, though on CD,

    • Re:DRM is a hassle (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Nutsquasher (543657) on Saturday September 16 2006, @09:30PM (#16122683)
      Yeah, I've bought more CD's now than before not because of iTunes, but because of Pandora.com. Points 1, 2, and 3 are very valid. Also, you're unable to resell your iTunes music collection if you wish.

      I find it odd how I'm so anti-iTunes due to the stated reasons, but I'm more than willing to buy games on Xbox Live Arcade, seeing as they fit within similar restrictions. Well, only if they're original and not repackaged retro-games I've played to death.

      It probably has to do with the fact that Xbox Live Arcade games are only available through a restricted medium, where I can bypass iTunes and buy a non-DRMed CD and Vorbis it.
      [ Parent ]
    • Re:DRM is a hassle (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 16 2006, @09:31PM (#16122689)
      DRM on my music simply does not satisfy for a number of reasons including 1) quality (I can tell the difference).

      When is this faux-audiophile bullshit going to end. DRM does not change the sound of music. It does not sound any different.

      A DRMd 128kbps AAC file decrypts and uncompresses to the exact same waveform as a non-DRMd 128kbps AAC file. It sounds just as bad.

      A DRMd lossless format decrypts and uncompresses to the exact same waveform as a non-DRMd lossless file. It sounds just as good.

      You cannot tell the difference between a DRMd file and a non DRMd file all else being equal. End of story, no argument, thank you take the next gate out of here.
      [ Parent ]
      • Re:DRM is a hassle (Score:5, Funny)

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 16 2006, @09:40PM (#16122724)
        lol. If you had ears worth a damn you would know that encryption of any kind irreversibly changes the data being streamed through it, and thus causes a definite change in the sound. I don't know the exact reasons for it, but you cannot deny that the data is being changed. According to Quantum theory anyway, you cannot help but change something like the resulting wave form simply by observing it, and you NEED to observe it in order to change it into an encrypted form, and then again in order to apply the unencryption key.

        In my experience it changes the music in odd ways different to the changes that compression cause. It gives a bass that's more harsh, and increases the midrange while levelling out in the high end. That's an issue totally separate to what happens when you compress with AAC or MP3 or whatever. If you want to test, make an mp3 and then make two identical copies of the file. Run one of the resulting compressed files through an encryption utility (it doesn't have to be Apple's fairplay, even sending it via PGP email will do) and then decrypt it. Play the never-encrypted file and play the encrypted then decrypted file one after another, you'll easily tell the difference.
        [ Parent ]
        • It's "let's pretend to be a programmer day" by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Saturday September 16 2006, @09:44PM
        • Re:DRM is a hassle (Score:5, Insightful)

          ol. If you had ears worth a damn you would know that encryption of any kind irreversibly changes the data being streamed through it, and thus causes a definite change in the sound.

          This is the biggest load of crap I've read on /. in a long time. Congratulations!

          Encryption makes the data appear pseudo-random, however the decryption will return the bits, before they are inserted into the audio buffer, to the exact same state they were in prior to encryption.

          Your own test bears this out -- just do a comparison of the resulting files. The computer has no way of knowing that the "encrypted" file was ever even encrypted (as you aren't replacing the bits -- you're duplicating them). If you can hear a difference, it's only because the voices in your head are getting louder. Or maybe your tinfoil hat is askew.

          Yaz.

          [ Parent ]
          • Re:DRM is a hassle by Anonymous Coward (Score:2) Saturday September 16 2006, @10:14PM
            • Re:DRM is a hassle by Yvan256 (Score:2) Saturday September 16 2006, @10:23PM
            • Re:DRM is a hassle (Score:5, Informative)

              Of course the computer will identify them as being the same, its job is to work with discrete components in the form of bits, where the human ear can hear on a lower level than that. I'm no digital maven, so I can't say the EXACT reason why, but I've been selling, repairing and setting up high end audio systems for 17 years. It's my job to know what sounds the same and what sounds different. Perhaps the bits themselves are longer or shorter than before encryption, or perhaps they're a bit (pun intended) higher voltage where a computer will still read it as a "1" when it's in a bass waveform, therefore things like md5sum will claim it's the same file, but if you knew anything about signals over a wire you'd know things like a waveform that can be represented digitally can look (and sound) very different depending on the size of the peaks and troughs.

              As it happens, I know quite a bit about digital signaling. I also know that that "bit" you're reading is going to be converted several times from when you read it fro the hard disk, by a variety of independent subsystems which set their own bit levels as high or low, based on their own signaling specifications.

              You read some bits off your hard drive. The bits sitting on your drive have no voltage -- they're simply a magnetic field. This field get translated into either a 1 or a 0 bit. The drive controller copies this into a voltage that it then transmits across the drive bus to a bus controller. This bus controller then copies the bit to the system bus. The system bus copies it to the CPU, which copies it to RAM, which is then refreshed thousands of times per second. This is then copied back onto the system bus, and send to your audio hardware, which feeds it through a DAC.

              Each of these transmissions is a copy operation on the bit -- not on the strength of the magnetic field, or whatever voltage was being applied to the transmitting component. So signaling in this case makes no difference -- so long as each field or voltage fits within the proper tolerances, it will be treated as a 1 or a 0, and will be raised high or low at the new voltage level as a completely new signal during each conversion. As such, it isn't the case that if the bit is magnetically weak on your hard drive that it will have a lower-than-normal voltage once it finally gets into RAM.

              Thinking of it another way, it isn't like using a tin-can-and-string telephone to transmit data. It's more like the telephone game, where someone says something to someone, who then tells the message to the next person, and so on until the recipient receives the message. It doesn't matter if the first speaker is male or female -- the last person to pass on the message is going to state the same message regardless, in their own voice. The only difference in the case of a computer is that most stages have integrity checking to verify that the message is received properly, and in some cases can either request a retransmission if the integrity checking fails, or can receive the data in a manner that it can be reconstructed with mathematical certainty by using appropriate data encodings.

              Encryption makes no difference. The system is not analogue -- it is digital. And the system only knows two digits. Each individual subsystem has completely different mechanisms for representing those bits, and that representation is completely independent of other subsystems. Reading an encrypted block from your hard drive causes the encrypted data to be copied into RAM, from which a decrypted copy is placed into RAM. This copy is generated electrically in exactly the same fashion if it had been read unencrypted from the hard drive. By the time it gets to the audio DAC, the data is identical from both a data and a signaling standpoint.

              I'm sure you can handily replace the needle on a record player arm, but you know absolutely squat about digital signaling.

              Yaz.

              [ Parent ]
              • Playing devil's advocate... (Score:5, Insightful)

                by supersat (639745) on Saturday September 16 2006, @11:08PM (#16123085)
                I agree that DRM'ed music should sound no different, but let me play devil's advocate for a minute.

                It might be possible that the decryption algorithm introduces some jitter by taking a varying amount of time to decrypt a chunk of data [cryptography.com]. A poorly-engineered system might pass this jitter through to the DAC, resulting in degraded audio quality. It might also be possible that the decryption operations cause the CPU to introduce additional noise on the power rails, which might also impact audio quality in a poorly-engineered system.

                So, I don't think it's impossible that DRM affects sound quality. I'm just not convinced that it actually does.
                [ Parent ]
              • You fed the troll. Good job. by norminator (Score:3) Saturday September 16 2006, @11:56PM
              • Re:DRM is a hassle by soxerus (Score:1) Sunday September 17 2006, @10:43PM
              • Re:Playing devil's advocate... by Al Dimond (Score:3) Sunday September 17 2006, @12:02AM
              • Congratulations to all who bit at this troll, and took it hook, line, and sinker.

                Let's ignore your assumption that this person is a troll for a second (something which I do not necessarily believe, although I also can't discount it as a possibility). When a technical falsehood like this goes unchallenged, those who are less technically inclined are likely to believe it, and pass it on as truth.

                Slashdot is known as a technical site. If such claims do not go unchallenged, there is a very good chance that someone out there is going to read this, and relay it to their non-technical friends and family as the truth, because they read it on Slashdot.

                I routinely have to explain reality to far too many people around me because they read something that is physically impossible on the web, and then believe it (and pass it on). Certain family members in particular are highly susceptible to such claims. They wouldn't be able to spot it as a troll, however dozens of posts from respectable, knowledgeable people pointing out the falsehoods may cause them to question the veracity of the trolls claims.

                Troll or not, falsehoods need to be challenged, especially in the technical realm, which is really just "magic" to the layman in the first place.

                Yaz.

                [ Parent ]
              • Re:You fed the troll. Good job. by Lars T. (Score:2) Sunday September 17 2006, @02:01AM
              • Re:Playing devil's advocate... by zarlino (Score:1) Sunday September 17 2006, @06:09AM
              • Re:Playing devil's advocate... by supersat (Score:2) Sunday September 17 2006, @06:30AM
              • Re:Playing devil's advocate... by Taagehornet (Score:1) Sunday September 17 2006, @06:53AM
              • Re:Playing devil's advocate... by dfghjk (Score:2) Sunday September 17 2006, @10:13PM
              • Re:You fed the troll. Good job. by tbone1 (Score:2) Monday September 18 2006, @02:03PM
              • 5 replies beneath your current threshold.
            • Re:DRM is a hassle by ender- (Score:1) Saturday September 16 2006, @10:36PM
            • Re:DRM is a hassle by geobeck (Score:2) Sunday September 17 2006, @12:04AM
              • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
            • Re:DRM is a hassle by fingusernames (Score:2) Sunday September 17 2006, @01:15AM
            • Please... by LKM (Score:2) Sunday September 17 2006, @03:48AM
            • You're Awesome! by CheeseburgerBrown (Score:2) Sunday September 17 2006, @06:32AM
            • Re:DRM is a hassle by necro81 (Score:2) Sunday September 17 2006, @10:30AM
            • Re:DRM is a hassle by JoshNorton (Score:1) Sunday September 17 2006, @12:54PM
            • Troll or post by rwjyoung (Score:1) Monday September 18 2006, @06:06AM
            • 2 replies beneath your current threshold.
          • Re:DRM is a hassle (Score:5, Funny)

            by wordsnyc (956034) on Saturday September 16 2006, @10:19PM (#16122896)
            (http://www.evanmorris.com/)
            It's homeopathy! The bits remember being encrypted!
            [ Parent ]
          • Re:DRM is a hassle by aichpvee (Score:1) Sunday September 17 2006, @12:30AM
            • Mod baby, mod by Mateo_LeFou (Score:2) Sunday September 17 2006, @11:02AM
          • Re:DRM is a hassle by mattmacf (Score:2) Sunday September 17 2006, @01:08AM
          • You need to take more ironY pills. by jotaeleemeese (Score:2) Tuesday September 19 2006, @01:32PM
        • Re:DRM is a hassle (Score:5, Insightful)

          by cskrat (921721) on Saturday September 16 2006, @10:03PM (#16122834)
          PGP is a lossless encryption whereas fairplay uses a watermark technique. Big difference in algorithms and quantum theory has nothing to do with it.

          The difference between a DRM'd song and one that you rip yourself is an issue of control. With iTunes you are stuck with 128kbps AAC encoded by their in house encoding/DRM software. When you rip a song yourself you have the option of using any one of myriad different encoders, algorithms, bitrates, configurations, and etc. I usually use 240-355 VBR WMA encoding for personal use.

          Personally I've only purchased one album from iTunes (unfortunatly I can no longer play it because I've changed computers too many times) and while their encoding method is fine for listening through earbuds, it shows noticable degredation vs. PCM on my 7.1 home theater setup. But it has nothing to do with watermarking DRM and it definately has nothing to do with quantum theory and schrodinger's cat, it is all about the bitrate and the encoding software. And Apple uses a substandard encoder set to a bitrate that is almost pallatable to AOL dial-up customers.
          [ Parent ]
          • Re:DRM is a hassle (Score:5, Informative)

            by monoqlith (610041) on Saturday September 16 2006, @10:28PM (#16122923)
            Personally I've only purchased one album from iTunes (unfortunatly I can no longer play it because I've changed computers too many times)


            Just so you know, there is a button in the iTunes Music Store account information page that lets you deauthorize all the computers that you've previously authorized to play your music. It only lets you do this once a year IIRC, but it's useful if you've reached your limit of 5 computers and can't get to an authorized computer to deauthorize it.

            [ Parent ]
          • Re:DRM is a hassle (Score:4, Informative)

            by Yvan256 (722131) on Saturday September 16 2006, @10:32PM (#16122945)
            (http://www.yvan256.net/)
            [...] I usually use 240-355 VBR WMA encoding for personal use.

            Personally I've only purchased one album from iTunes (unfortunatly I can no longer play it because I've changed computers too many times) and while their encoding method is fine for listening through earbuds, it shows noticable degredation vs. PCM on my 7.1 home theater setup. But it has nothing to do with watermarking DRM and it definately has nothing to do with quantum theory and schrodinger's cat, it is all about the bitrate and the encoding software. And Apple uses a substandard encoder set to a bitrate that is almost pallatable to AOL dial-up customers.
            Oh great, another Microsoft fan spreading FUD about Apple.

            First of all, WMA has been shown to be the worst (or second worst) CODEC in all the audio tests that have been done.

            Second, you can reset the list of computers that are allowed to play your purchased songs. In iTunes, go to the music store and click on your account button. If you have 5 authorized computers in your list, you should have a button next to "computer authorizations" which you can use to reset the list. You can use that feature once or twice a year AFAIK. You then simply re-authorize the current computers that you want to use. You don't need the old computers to de-authorize them.

            Third, AAC was developped by Dolby and was shown to be the best or second best CODEC in all the audio tests that have been done. As for the bitrate, AAC is more efficient with 128kbps than MP3 or WMA.
            [ Parent ]
          • Re:DRM is a hassle by Paolo DF (Score:1) Sunday September 17 2006, @08:11AM
          • Re:DRM is a hassle by FFFish (Score:2) Sunday September 17 2006, @11:45AM
          • Re:DRM is a hassle by profplump (Score:1) Sunday September 17 2006, @11:54AM
          • Re:DRM is a hassle by dwightk (Score:1) Wednesday September 20 2006, @09:05AM
          • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
        • Re:DRM is a hassle by Typhon100 (Score:1) Saturday September 16 2006, @10:18PM
        • Re:DRM is a hassle by omeomi (Score:2) Saturday September 16 2006, @10:44PM
        • Re:DRM is a hassle by Paco103 (Score:1) Saturday September 16 2006, @10:48PM
        • Re:DRM is a hassle by dmitrygr (Score:1) Saturday September 16 2006, @11:13PM
        • Re:DRM is a hassle by Kaenneth (Score:2) Sunday September 17 2006, @12:46AM
        • Re:DRM is a hassle by draxredd (Score:1) Sunday September 17 2006, @03:27AM
        • Blind Listening test? by Midnight Thunder (Score:2) Sunday September 17 2006, @10:44AM
        • Re:DRM is a hassle by HiThere (Score:2) Sunday September 17 2006, @12:29PM
        • total crap by ClintJCL (Score:1) Monday September 18 2006, @10:45AM
        • 2 replies beneath your current threshold.
      • True, but... by cskrat (Score:2) Saturday September 16 2006, @09:42PM
      • Re:DRM is a hassle (Score:5, Informative)

        by BWJones (18351) * on Saturday September 16 2006, @10:04PM (#16122836)
        (http://prometheus.med.utah.edu/~bwjones/ | Last Journal: Friday November 09, @08:01PM)
        DRM does not change the sound of music. It does not sound any different.

        No, but I cannot purchase from the iTMS songs that are encoded at higher rates. That was my point.

        [ Parent ]
      • Re:DRM is a hassle (Score:5, Funny)

        by Rix (54095) on Saturday September 16 2006, @10:12PM (#16122869)
        Ssh.

        It may not be rational, but if it gets the plebes to opose DRM, it's good for everyone in the long run.
        [ Parent ]
      • Re:DRM is a hassle by Gr8Apes (Score:1) Saturday September 16 2006, @10:36PM
      • Re:DRM is a hassle by Deliveranc3 (Score:3) Saturday September 16 2006, @10:57PM
      • Re:DRM is a hassle by gregory (Score:1) Saturday September 16 2006, @11:01PM
      • Re:DRM is a hassle by Mex (Score:1) Saturday September 16 2006, @11:37PM
      • Re:DRM is a hassle by mad_minstrel (Score:1) Saturday September 16 2006, @11:37PM
      • Re:DRM is a hassle by Ebirah (Score:1) Sunday September 17 2006, @06:36AM
      • Re:DRM is a hassle by Matt Perry (Score:2) Sunday September 17 2006, @10:23AM
      • Re:DRM is a hassle by zip_000 (Score:1) Sunday September 17 2006, @04:42PM
      • Re:DRM is a hassle by c4seyj0nes (Score:1) Thursday September 21 2006, @10:12AM
      • 2 replies beneath your current threshold.
    • Why to buy CDs by mitchell_pgh (Score:2) Saturday September 16 2006, @10:56PM
    • Re:DRM is a hassle by 1310nm (Score:1) Saturday September 16 2006, @10:59PM
    • Re:DRM is a hassle by cyclocommuter (Score:2) Saturday September 16 2006, @11:08PM
    • Re:DRM is a hassle by richsw (Score:1) Saturday September 16 2006, @11:13PM
    • Re:DRM is a hassle by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Sunday September 17 2006, @03:40AM
    • Re:DRM is a hassle & costly I might add by KnightMB (Score:2) Sunday September 17 2006, @11:56AM
    • Re:DRM is a hassle by AmberBlackCat (Score:1) Sunday September 17 2006, @02:56PM
    • 3 replies beneath your current threshold.
  • but I already have a TON of CD's (Score:5, Insightful)

    by marz007 (72932) on Saturday September 16 2006, @09:24PM (#16122649)
    (http://tekmage.net/)
    Why do I need to buy all those again, if I buy, I'll probably buy via iTunes, but I've got a large catalog already purchased. This isn't shunning.
  • Who would've thought? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Opportunist (166417) on Saturday September 16 2006, @09:24PM (#16122652)
    So appearantly the majority prefers freedom over convenience? Well, at least it keeps my hopes up for humanity.
  • Let's be honest here (Score:4, Insightful)

    by conner_bw (120497) on Saturday September 16 2006, @09:26PM (#16122656)
    (http://www.nightlifemagazine.ca/ | Last Journal: Thursday March 24 2005, @12:46PM)
    The majority of music bought by owners of iPods may come from CDs but the majority of iTunes music stored on the device probably wasn't bought.
  • I've never purchased from iTunes. (Score:3, Insightful)

    by HatchedEggs (1002127) on Saturday September 16 2006, @09:26PM (#16122663)
    (http://hatchedeggs.blogspot.com/ | Last Journal: Tuesday September 12 2006, @09:35PM)
    Never... and I don't really plan on doing so. I just like having a CD of my music, produced professionally, etc. Perhaps I'm behind the times, but the only stuff I get from iTunes is my podcasts.

    If iTunes remembered online that I owned the rights toa piece of software and could download it again at a later time perhaps I would use it (thats me speaking blindly, I haven't even looked into it that much). My wife has downloaded a few songs from iTunes if I recall, but we both have a decent CD collection and tend to support the artists that we like by getting their whole CD.

    Is it just me, or was the new iTunes release a step down from the last one? I just don't like the interface as much.

    Justin
    http://hatchedeggs.blogspot.com/ [blogspot.com]
  • Make that non-lossy music. by Cybert4 (Score:1) Saturday September 16 2006, @09:27PM
    • amen by MarcoAtWork (Score:2) Saturday September 16 2006, @10:58PM
    • 2 replies beneath your current threshold.
  • most of us have a cd collection. by (H)elix1 (Score:2) Saturday September 16 2006, @09:28PM
  • What a bad statistic (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Watson Ladd (955755) on Saturday September 16 2006, @09:29PM (#16122677)
    A lot of iTunes users had large CD collections before iTunes. So saying that most of their music is on CD is a pretty misleading statistic. Better is to look at music bought in the last n weeks.
  • No, no, no (Score:5, Insightful)

    by 93 Escort Wagon (326346) on Saturday September 16 2006, @09:30PM (#16122681)
    "it is clear that users prefer DRM-free music, and are willing to pay for it and take the trouble to rip it."

    I have an iPod, I rarely buy anything from the iTunes Music Store, and it has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with DRM. The albums I want to buy are quite often in the $12-$13 range on iTunes, and I can get them in CD form at the same price or even cheaper. When I buy the CD I get a) higher quality, and b) a permanent backup I can store in a closet or cupboard.

    I think what's really going on is that people can see the obvious: the price structure (digital vs. physical medium) is currently way out of whack. You don't save anything by buying the digital version! Why would you do it? It's not like I ever find myself saying "I just HAVE to own the new Audioslave, and I can't BEAR to wait 3 or 4 days for it!"

    • Re:No, no, no by kannibal_klown (Score:1) Saturday September 16 2006, @09:44PM
      • Re:No, no, no by rolfwind (Score:2) Saturday September 16 2006, @09:53PM
        • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
    • Re:No, no, no by supabeast! (Score:2) Saturday September 16 2006, @09:46PM
    • Re:No, no, no by HatchedEggs (Score:1) Saturday September 16 2006, @09:50PM
    • Re:No, no, no by Ryz0r (Score:2) Saturday September 16 2006, @10:50PM
    • Re:No, no, no by The One and Only (Score:2) Sunday September 17 2006, @12:13AM
      • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
    • Permanent Backup by RareButSeriousSideEf (Score:2) Sunday September 17 2006, @02:10AM
    • Re:No, no, no by noewun (Score:2) Sunday September 17 2006, @02:50AM
    • Re:No, no, no by pillsbur (Score:1) Sunday September 17 2006, @11:16AM
    • 4 replies beneath your current threshold.
  • I use iTMS by dcapel (Score:2) Saturday September 16 2006, @09:30PM
    • Re:I use iTMS by dcapel (Score:2) Saturday September 16 2006, @10:00PM
      • Re:I use iTMS by dcapel (Score:2) Saturday September 16 2006, @10:31PM
      • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • Let me see if I have this right (Score:5, Insightful)

    by winkydink (650484) * <sv.dude@gmail.com> on Saturday September 16 2006, @09:31PM (#16122688)
    (http://www.networkmirror.com/ | Last Journal: Thursday July 05, @04:34PM)
    1) Most iPod user don't buy using iTunes
    2) Every other online music store is a failure

    Therefore, people don't like DRM.

    Yeah, I see how that conclusion follows those two assumptions. How about, iTunes is successful because the iPod is successful and yet, that said, most people prefer to own a CD version of their digital music. Perhaps because they can encode either lossless or at a higher bitrate than offered by iTunes?

    The average Joe most likely thinks that DRM is one of those new pop bands he's heard about.

  • Apparent success? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by kuwan (443684) on Saturday September 16 2006, @09:34PM (#16122695)
    (http://www.cutterpillow.com/)
    Just because everyone that buys an iPod doesn't buy music from the iTunes store doesn't mean that it (iTunes) isn't successful. Success is measured in different ways. If they are making a profit then they are successful. You don't have to dominate sales to be successful. Also, given that Apple has like 80-90% market share for all legal music downloads then I'd call them successful.

    It's going to take a while before downloads overtake CD sales (if ever), but that doesn't mean that a new technology in a new market isn't successful.
  • Free Music by SniperClops (Score:2) Saturday September 16 2006, @09:34PM
  • 1.5 Billion Songs != Shunning (Score:5, Insightful)

    by thefinite (563510) on Saturday September 16 2006, @09:34PM (#16122699)
    "Shunning" is such a silly word to use for this. Just because the iTunes store has not entirely replaced the CD in its few years of existence does not mean that users are shunning it. Their business is growing faster than CD sales are growing. Steve Jobs even said in the recent Apple Event that they are the first music downloads store to crack the top five sellers of music in any form. He also said they are now passing the 1.5 BILLION song mark.

    But I guess no one will read an article that says "iPod users gradually adopting iTunes Music Store to supplement CD sales."
    • Re:1.5 Billion Songs != Shunning by rolfwind (Score:3) Saturday September 16 2006, @09:46PM
      • Re:1.5 Billion Songs != Shunning by dangitman (Score:2) Saturday September 16 2006, @09:53PM
        • Re:1.5 Billion Songs != Shunning by rolfwind (Score:1) Saturday September 16 2006, @09:58PM
          • Re:1.5 Billion Songs != Shunning (Score:5, Insightful)

            by dangitman (862676) on Saturday September 16 2006, @10:06PM (#16122849)
            But you still can't play your CDs directly with your iPod. You have to jump through hoops first.

            Jump through hoops? I'm not sure what you are talking about. You simply insert the disc into your CD-ROM drive, iTunes rips the files, tags them, and transfers to your iPod. It's exactly as convenient as listening to the CD in a normal player.

            It be like everyone was buying cassete players, but still buying 8 track tapes and recording them onto cassettes.

            Not really, because the CD was a quantum leap in convenience from tapes. No more rewinding, or hunting for songs. It was also a big increase in audio quality. Never mind the fact that 8-tracks never had the kind of market dominance that CDs enjoy.

            Similarly, the iPod was also a big increase in convenience. No more sorting through physical discs to find your CDs. No more bulky collections to carry around. The iPod did not increase quality - but the main reason for the success of both the CD and the iPod was not quality but convenience.

            Maybe the switch will happen when the CD player is less dominant elsewhere (like stereos) and the media center PC becomes a reality in every home.

            That's pretty much already happened. How many people actually play CDs in standalone CD players these days? How many people have a computer with a CD-ROM? I'm not sure why you need a "media center" PC to use iTunes. The difference is that people already have huge collections of CDs, and have stores that sell CDs in their neighborhood. I don't think it has much to do with people not being comfortable with using their PCs for music.

            [ Parent ]
      • Re:1.5 Billion Songs != Shunning by ucblockhead (Score:2) Sunday September 17 2006, @02:35PM
    • Re:1.5 Billion Songs != Shunning by Rix (Score:2) Saturday September 16 2006, @10:17PM
    • Re:1.5 Billion Songs != Shunning by Jeff DeMaagd (Score:2) Saturday September 16 2006, @10:46PM
    • Re:1.5 Billion Songs != Shunning by arkhan_jg (Score:2) Sunday September 17 2006, @03:45AM
    • Re:1.5 Billion Songs != Shunning by macaddict (Score:1) Sunday September 17 2006, @09:11AM
  • Not DRM but physical CDs by Pao|o (Score:1) Saturday September 16 2006, @09:35PM
  • Well... by sugapablo (Score:1) Saturday September 16 2006, @09:37PM
    • Re:Well... by TalkingWire (Score:1) Saturday September 16 2006, @09:51PM
  • I don't doubt the figures... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Kjella (173770) on Saturday September 16 2006, @09:37PM (#16122710)
    (http://slashdot.org/)
    ...but it also matters the reason you got them. You can easily get gigs and gigs of "assorted music" to fill up the space, for example by copying the collection of a friend. That means you'll have a lot of music that is basicly filler too, either because it was your friend's filler music or you don't like the same music as him.

    That, and it basicly comes down to this: You can have water (silence) or mixed soda (P2P) for free or pay for brand soda (iTMS). Of course you'll have a ton of people that never wanted to buy a soda in the first place, but who'll happily take one if it's free. And if it's one they hate, all they lost was a little time in line.
  • DRM's not a problem, just the quality by lerxstz (Score:1) Saturday September 16 2006, @09:40PM
  • Spot on... by dpbsmith (Score:2) Saturday September 16 2006, @09:41PM
    • Re:Correction by dpbsmith (Score:2) Saturday September 16 2006, @09:43PM
  • Correlation != Causation by popejeremy (Score:1) Saturday September 16 2006, @09:41PM
  • It's not just DRM... by DigitAl56K (Score:2) Saturday September 16 2006, @09:41PM
  • Digital music by roboRob (Score:1) Saturday September 16 2006, @09:42PM
  • Abuse of Statistics by smack.addict (Score:2) Saturday September 16 2006, @09:42PM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • In other news today by eclectro (Score:2) Saturday September 16 2006, @09:43PM
  • Scan artwork or upgrade. NOW! by TalkingWire (Score:1) Saturday September 16 2006, @09:44PM
  • Shunning iTunes? by dangitman (Score:2) Saturday September 16 2006, @09:47PM
  • Wag the dog by Novajo (Score:1) Saturday September 16 2006, @09:48PM
  • 5% of a giant number by sootman (Score:2) Saturday September 16 2006, @09:51PM
  • Bullshit (Score:5, Insightful)

    by 7Prime (871679) on Saturday September 16 2006, @09:56PM (#16122788)
    (http://www.ericbarker.com/ | Last Journal: Wednesday October 10, @08:43PM)

    I was totally with the article up until the last sentance, which makes a stupid, spun, assumption based on a causality. "People are buying CDs more than online music," great. "People PREFER buying CDs to online music," still good. "Online music has DRM," yes. But "Therefore people must not be buying online music because of the DRM," is NOT a good proof. DRM is one of MANY characteristics that separate CDs from music downloads, and I would argue it to be one of the least important to people. Even the "lossy/non-lossy" arguement is a very small, elite few, compared to the masses, of whome hardly care about the quality of their music. No, the three biggest reasons why CDs are still more popular is: tradition, the regularity of going to shop at a place, where you can then pick out music. And the third, which I think is probably the biggest, is the ownership of a physical object after purchase.

    If people put money down on something, they want to be able to physically "hold it in their hand" (so to speak). It's human nature, we're used to dealing with physical objects. Being told, "now you have it, now go have fun" without any physical evidence doesn't naturally feel as ligitimate has being able to spend money, and hold in your hand the item you just bought. This may change, but currently people are comfortable exchanging money for items, admissions, but we haven't yet completely bought into this "paying money for non-physical data" thing.

    I remember a study that showed that the majority of computer users didn't consider illegally downloading software or media to be anywhere as offensive as shoplifting. Similarly, I would suggest that people don't consider purchasing something online to be of the same legitimacy as buying something in a store.

    Give me a decent, unbiased study that shows me that the common person gives much of a shit about DRM, and I'll listen, but this says nothing at all.

    • Re:Bullshit by Rix (Score:2) Saturday September 16 2006, @10:22PM
      • Re:Bullshit by jb.hl.com (Score:2) Sunday September 17 2006, @04:44AM
        • Re:Bullshit by Rix (Score:2) Sunday September 17 2006, @05:14AM
          • Re:Bullshit by jb.hl.com (Score:2) Sunday September 17 2006, @05:21AM
            • Re:Bullshit by Rix (Score:2) Monday September 18 2006, @01:27AM
      • Re:Bullshit by cthellis (Score:1) Sunday September 17 2006, @09:11AM
        • Re:Bullshit by Rix (Score:2) Monday September 18 2006, @01:30AM
    • Re:Bullshit by JFMulder (Score:2) Saturday September 16 2006, @11:36PM
    • Re:Bullshit by MikeBabcock (Score:2) Saturday September 16 2006, @11:44PM
    • Re:Bullshit by evilviper (Score:2) Sunday September 17 2006, @05:35AM
    • Re:Bullshit by SanityInAnarchy (Score:2) Sunday September 17 2006, @03:37PM
  • Backups... by ocifersven (Score:1) Saturday September 16 2006, @10:01PM
    • Re:Backups... by gristlebud (Score:1) Sunday September 17 2006, @08:30AM
    • 2 replies beneath your current threshold.
  • Sensationilist reporting by zoftie (Score:2) Saturday September 16 2006, @10:01PM
  • But I Want My OLD CDs Back! by JimatForemat (Score:2) Saturday September 16 2006, @10:04PM
  • Sure About DRM? How About Price? by coaxial (Score:1) Saturday September 16 2006, @10:04PM
  • CD Walkman upgrade by Badfysh (Score:1) Saturday September 16 2006, @10:16PM
  • consumers and DRM by kgruscho (Score:1) Saturday September 16 2006, @10:18PM
  • Users don't care about DRM, they want a hardcopy by courtarro (Score:2) Saturday September 16 2006, @10:21PM
  • magnatune.com (Score:5, Interesting)

    by steveha (103154) on Saturday September 16 2006, @10:24PM (#16122915)
    (http://www.blarg.net/~steveha)
    If you would like to buy music from an online store, but you don't want DRM and you want top quality, check out magnatune.com [magnatune.com]. They let you download CD-quality (either as uncompressed wave files, or as FLAC), MP3, or Ogg Vorbis. And you can listen to everything before you buy. (128 kbps MP3, lower quality than you get when you pay.)

    Not only do they not have DRM, but they encourage you to give away up to three copies of the music you buy, as a form of advertising.

    They have a sliding scale on prices: you can choose what you want to pay, within a reasonable range. (I just checked, and at least for the album I checked, the range was from $5 to $18.) If you only like one song on an album, pay less for the album. If you really want to encourage an artist to make more albums, pay more. That's cool.

    When you buy an album, the artist gets 50% of whatever you pay. Not 50% of the profits, and then they cook the books so they "don't have any profits"... 50% of the gross income. That's outstanding. I love their slogan: "We are not evil."

    I have no connection to them, other than being a satisfied customer.

    steveha
  • I have over 20GB of music in iTunes by Zaknafein500 (Score:2) Saturday September 16 2006, @10:25PM
  • not about DRM (Score:4, Insightful)

    by bcrowell (177657) on Saturday September 16 2006, @10:29PM (#16122930)
    (http://www.lightandmatter.com/)

    Given the outright failure of other music services, it is clear that users prefer DRM-free music, and are willing to pay for it and take the trouble to rip it.
    The DRM on iTunes isn't that onerous. You can still convert to MP3. I guess what some people are upset about is that there's no lossless way to convert AAC to a non-lossy format. I doubt that the average person cares. The sound quality on an iPod, after all, is limited mainly by the earbuds, not by the compression scheme.

    I suspect the main reason people don't buy much music digitally is the same as the main reason people never bought e-books: price. People just aren't willing to pay the same amount of money for a string of ones and zeroes as for a physical object. They want a discount to reflect the fact that the digital thing is worth less to them than the physical object, and they also know damn well that the publishers can afford to give a discount, because they don't have any distribution costs.

    The last time I started up iTunes on my wife's mac (I don't use it much myself), it gave me a little informative message suggesting that I make a habit of backing up all my music regularly. Uh, and what would I back it up onto? CDs? In that case, why not just buy a CD? Sure, a lot of people prefer to buy pop music a song at a time, but personally I buy mostly jazz and classical, and I'm not interested at all in buying single tracks.

  • And this is news? by jht (Score:2) Saturday September 16 2006, @10:29PM
  • iTunes is a Joke! by electrogeek_dot_com (Score:1) Saturday September 16 2006, @10:32PM
  • Oh I cant believe this! by dafing (Score:1) Saturday September 16 2006, @10:35PM
  • iTunes and the like are great 'preview' services by SethEaston (Score:1) Saturday September 16 2006, @10:37PM
  • I'm still buying CDs. by Name Anonymous (Score:1) Saturday September 16 2006, @10:42PM
  • Don't buy digital music? (Score:3, Funny)

    by noidentity (188756) on Saturday September 16 2006, @10:50PM (#16123012)
    Why would anyone want the cold, lifeless sound of digital music when they can have the warm, refreshing sound of a compact disc?
  • This will just make them phase out CD's faster by Zadaz (Score:2) Saturday September 16 2006, @10:50PM
  • New music Tuesday is a good day... (Score:3, Informative)

    by TheRealStyro (233246) on Saturday September 16 2006, @10:54PM (#16123024)
    (http://www.last.fm/user/Styro/)
    While I don't doubt that a lot of PMP (personal media player) owners get music on the players via the old tried-and-high-quality methods of ripping CDs, I still like downloading from the iTunes store. Yes, sometimes the sample of the music is too short or was taken from a poor section of the recording (solution would be to allow three 30 second samples per track as long as song is over 2.5 minutes long), and the quality is somewhat low for complex pieces (for example, always rip Pink Floyd and The Crystal Method - PF deserves it and TCM requires it), but the price is right for legally purchased tracks.

    I look forward to new music Tuesday to listen for new tracks by my favorite artists and for trying to find artists that deserve my attention. With radio being as commercial as possible, iTunes is about my only source for new and fresh music.
  • I got caught up in the hype by linuxpng (Score:2) Saturday September 16 2006, @11:02PM
  • Everyone is missing the point! (Score:3, Interesting)

    The survey apparently compared (iTunes purchased songs) and (every other possible way of getting a song onto your iPod)

    My entire music collection is legal, but I can tell you one of the major way my friends get music - from their friends, through sharing their music collections.

    Everyone here on SlashDot seems to be saying "This survey shows that people would rather buy CDs than music online! This probably says they do not want DRM!"

    I think the article is saying "People will take *free* music their friends recommend over paying for music online."

    This is not at all surprising, and really does not speak to people's views on DRM.
  • kdawson, welcome to the Trolled By Twitter club! by Keith Russell (Score:2) Saturday September 16 2006, @11:22PM
  • conclusion jumping perhaps? by briancnorton (Score:2) Sunday September 17 2006, @12:02AM
  • My gripe with Itunes by British (Score:2) Sunday September 17 2006, @12:04AM
  • The CD is dead. Long live the CD! by FuturePastNow (Score:2) Sunday September 17 2006, @12:20AM
  • Cost vs Time (Score:4, Informative)

    by Bones3D_mac (324952) on Sunday September 17 2006, @12:50AM (#16123396)
    Playing around with my new 80GB iPod, I've learned quite a bit about everything involved in producing efficient rips of data stored on protected media like DVDs. Depending on the intended use of the content in question, you may actually find it more efficient in terms of time vs cost to simply buy iTunes video content than to attempt a rip yourself.

    I've been sampling different methods of DVD ripping since yesterday and have discovered the most efficient way to rip a DVD while retaining overall data quality is to go through a series of three different applications... at least on the Macintosh side of things.

      - Mac The Ripper [mactheripper.org]

    It seems there is a huge issue with trying to rip directly from the optical drive that often results in several hours of time used to obtain potentially buggy and incomplete data from a DVD. By using this utility to copy the raw DVD data directly to your hard drive, you'll find your DVD ripper will function much faster and much more reliably in a single pass, than it would with ripping straight from the DVD media itself. A 90 minute movie can be copied in about 10 minutes, and then ripped in realtime... rather than taking upward of three hours to obtain the same results.

    - Handbrake [m0k.org]

    This utility converts raw DVD data to a Quicktime-compatible format of your choosing. To ensure easy compatibity with the iPod, try out the new Instant Handbrake software. Despite being a bit buggy and in the beta stages, the results it produces are impressive. When used with raw dvd content stored on a fast hard drive, you can achieve a complete conversion in realtime or faster.

    - iSquint [isquint.org]

    This utility simplifies the process of ensuring your ripped files are in a format that conforms to iPod-playable standards. Depending on the intended use (portable viewing or viewing on a TV screen) you can store a full 90 minute movie using H.264 encoding within 250-500MB of space with very little loss in visual quality. This may add about 2 hours to the ripping process, but is easily worth it for the assurance you've performed the process correctly on your first attempt.

    All three of the above utilities are freeware/open source and readily downloadable at any time.

    As for CDs though, the ripping process is so trivial, there's no point in not buying a CD of a band you like, when you might well end up spending just as much on the individual DRM-infected tracks.
  • Silly by cubicledrone (Score:1) Sunday September 17 2006, @01:05AM
  • One question by cubicledrone (Score:1) Sunday September 17 2006, @01:12AM
  • Lies, damn lies and statistics by houghi (Score:2) Sunday September 17 2006, @01:30AM
  • On the subject of 128kbps AAC by Xyde (Score:2) Sunday September 17 2006, @01:52AM
  • Through my own use, I beg to differ by firebird06 (Score:1) Sunday September 17 2006, @02:08AM
  • iTunes 7 in the background by avasol (Score:1) Sunday September 17 2006, @02:46AM
  • And they should, too by RAMMS+EIN (Score:2) Sunday September 17 2006, @03:00AM
  • That's one read. by ZombieRoboNinja (Score:2) Sunday September 17 2006, @03:41AM
  • Shunning the system by Kuvter (Score:1) Sunday September 17 2006, @04:17AM
  • Oh dear. by jb.hl.com (Score:2) Sunday September 17 2006, @04:41AM
  • No choice where I live (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Kapiti Kid (1003167) on Sunday September 17 2006, @04:42AM (#16123898)
    As another result of the stupid regionalisation of the world brought about by DRMs and their like, Apple will not sell music to New Zealanders. Not unless they have a credit card with a billing address in another country, such as Australia. But I don't mind -- I've got 22 GB in my iTunes library so far. If Apple ever relented, I probably wouldn't use their store now. No need for it.
  • Why do people avoid DRM? by alizard (Score:2) Sunday September 17 2006, @05:04AM
  • Analog CDs? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by evilviper (135110) on Sunday September 17 2006, @05:31AM (#16124006)
    (Last Journal: Monday October 15, @11:53PM)
    From the /. summary:
    83% of iPod owners do not buy digital music regularly... only 5% of the music on an iPod will be bought from online music stores. The rest will be from CDs

    Ah yes, good old ANALOG CDs...

    From TFA:
    only 20 of the tracks on a iPod will be from the iTunes shop.

    Well no-shit. CDs have been around for decades, and most everyone owns dozens, if not hundreds, of them by now. Meanwhile, Itunes has only been around for a few years... It seems pretty significant that in that short time, they've sold so many songs as to bring decades of CD sales down to only 80% of the tracks on an iPod... though that could have something to do with people listening to OLD CDs less than new tracks.

  • iTune Store Is Not Available In All Countries by jack_csk (Score:1) Sunday September 17 2006, @06:03AM
  • Get off the DRM Hatewagon for just a moment by Hercules Peanut (Score:2) Sunday September 17 2006, @07:08AM
  • I always buy for iTunes by amichalo (Score:2) Sunday September 17 2006, @08:01AM
  • Uh, yeah. by nateziarek (Score:1) Sunday September 17 2006, @08:30AM
  • Not a political argument, it is about money by polyex (Score:1) Sunday September 17 2006, @08:51AM
  • CDs are nearly the perfect format by hattig (Score:2) Sunday September 17 2006, @08:51AM
  • iTunes order numbers tell a different story by Froomb (Score:1) Sunday September 17 2006, @09:08AM
  • The main point of iTunes by goldcd (Score:2) Sunday September 17 2006, @09:08AM
  • Not a problem for Apple by hey! (Score:2) Sunday September 17 2006, @09:32AM
  • iTunes is good for one thing... by exp(pi*sqrt(163)) (Score:2) Sunday September 17 2006, @09:56AM
  • Welcome me by Tha Duderooni (Score:1) Sunday September 17 2006, @10:01AM
  • Of course! by JasonBee (Score:1) Sunday September 17 2006, @10:31AM
  • *Checks Spreadsheet* by sielwolf (Score:2) Sunday September 17 2006, @10:34AM
  • iTunes? I listen to netaudio from netlabels. by ith(4mor3) (Score:1) Sunday September 17 2006, @10:50AM
  • I'll buy that, but by ScrewMaster (Score:2) Sunday September 17 2006, @11:19AM
  • one flaw with the analysis by JohnnySoftware (Score:2) Sunday September 17 2006, @12:26PM
  • AllOfMP3.com should be looked at seriously by popo (Score:2) Sunday September 17 2006, @12:34PM
  • Instant Gratification (Score:3, Insightful)

    and are willing to pay for it and take the trouble to rip it."

    It's never been any trouble to rip a CD- and usually not even to get artwork. The only real appeal (for me) of iTMS over used CD's on Amazon is instant gratification. That means I get to listen to a song as soon as I decide to buy it. Some times a friend will com over and say "have you ever heard 'X' " then we usually muddle over how it went, then I usually plunk down my 99 cents to get it now on iTunes; even if there's a good change I'll buy the whole CD later.

    Thats the total appeal for me. Same with the movie store- the appeal is that I can get it now.

    -Ed Palma [edified.org]
  • "Other" Music Services DOing Fine, Expanding by meehawl (Score:2) Sunday September 17 2006, @02:03PM
  • Why Apple works to keep iTunes prices low by DECS (Score:2) Sunday September 17 2006, @02:14PM
  • DRM by c0d3h4x0r (Score:2) Sunday September 17 2006, @02:50PM
  • Well I'll be... by Orig_Club_Soda (Score:1) Monday September 18 2006, @12:06AM
  • another thing by botkiller (Score:1) Monday September 18 2006, @12:52AM
  • DRM not the reason by moracity (Score:1) Monday September 18 2006, @09:13AM
  • by Trillan (597339) on Monday September 18 2006, @11:46AM (#16131086)
    (http://pyile.com/ | Last Journal: Tuesday December 19 2006, @01:33PM)

    I expect most users use the store a lot like I do: We use the store to test new artists and for the occasional song that there's no way we'd buy an artist's album for. Personally, I find it shocking that the iTunes store makes up as much as 5% of the music on an iPod, when you consider an iPod can hold thousands of songs.

    But the slashdot spin on this story is even worse: People may shun the iTunes store, but I doubt most iPod users are shunning iTunes.

    I also don't see any link to DRM anywhere in these numbers. It's an interesting theory and may even be true, but it lacks evidence. So far as I can see, the story submitter just tacked it on for the sheer hell of it. Better standards should be applied (and no, I'm not new here, I'm just always midly surprised at how low slashdot can go).

  • It's the quality, stupid by georgepgva (Score:1) Tuesday September 19 2006, @02:47PM
  • Re:fuck that cat by Ai Olor-Wile (Score:1) Saturday September 16 2006, @10:02PM
  • Re:Will never catch me buying digital music by CyDoxin (Score:1) Saturday September 16 2006, @11:29PM
  • Re:Maybe they aren't total iPodiots after all... by Buran (Score:2) Saturday September 16 2006, @11:34PM
  • 16 replies beneath your current threshold.
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