Microsoft [to patent] Verb Conjugation 382
streepje writes "Here [to be] the latest egregious patent application. Microsoft [to be] [to apply] for a patent for [to conjugate] verbs. Future postings [to look] like this."
On a clear disk you can seek forever. -- P. Denning
Already been invented. (Score:5, Interesting)
From the article:
For example, the user may input "present indicative of sein," "prasens indikativ von sein," "1st person plural of sein," and "erste Person Plural von sein".
I think this is a nonstarter.
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Yep. (Score:2)
Next.
Re:Yep. (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:Already been invented. (Score:5, Informative)
If you didn't publicize it, your prior invention only gives you the personal right to use your version of the technology without paying Microsoft. Until they sue you of course, then you'll either pay them or lawyers.
This piece of software [druide.com] has been for sale since 1996 (for French), and it does much more than what the patent covers (conjugate verbs), it's also a dictionnary with definitions (partly in the patent application for verbs), a thesaurus, a grammar, a spell and grammar checker (way better than what's embedded in MS-Word... it's a totally different league), and much much more. It's a must-have if you're even only remotely interrested in the French language.
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Re:Already been invented. (Score:5, Funny)
With regard to your patent, would you like to
a) fuck off
b) go fuck yourself or
c) get fucked
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CLIPPY: "Hello, it looks like you are fucking up a verb conjugation again..."
Link to the actual implementation (Score:3, Informative)
prior art? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:prior art? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:prior art? (Score:5, Funny)
Second function of this post: Demonstration of possibility of avoidance of verbs anyway. Result: No need of conjugation of verbs. Implication: Avoidance of patent problems.
Disadvantage: Overuse of colon.
Sorry, nonability of resistance
Re:prior art? (Score:4, Funny)
Whatever you do in the privacy of your bathroom should stay in the privacy of your bathroom.
<shudder>
Oh please (Score:5, Interesting)
I dislike Microsoft's business practices as much as the next guy, but give me a break. If you actually read the linked patent, it isn't a patent on conjugating words. It's a patent on automatically providing all of the different possible conjugation forms of any verb on the fly, which is something I, for one, haven't seen before and think could be pretty useful...
-Grym
Re:Oh please (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Oh please (Score:5, Interesting)
Of course it is pretty useful. In fact, it is something fundamental to language. Which is why it is reprehensible that some company should have a patent on it. It is like giving them a patent on changing sentences from passive to active... no, it's worse.
(This Onion article [theonion.com] might not be too far from reality, after all.
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Does a dictionary provide all the possible conjugation forms of any verb on the fly? No. No, they don't. Dictionaries don't do anything on the fly.
What is reprehensible is you willfully misunderstanding the patented invention. No one is patenting verb conjugation. Microsoft patented a way of getting a machine to take a verb (conjugated or not) and then list all conjugated forms of the verb. Obviously you know nothing about information retrieval, and natural language processing, or you
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Re:Oh please (Score:5, Informative)
It's trivial to do it for a fixed language, and it's trivial to iterate over any set of candidate languages with a well defined grammar, doing it for each.
The fact that a book doesn't list all possible forms for each possible verb in an explicit table is irrelevant. The book is enough to generate those forms on demand, which is all an algorithm is required to do.
Now, there are certainly optimal (smallest number of operations, or maybe smallest RAM requirements, etc) algorithms out there which perform equivalently to any given published grammar book, but finding those is at best a cause for buying the programmers a case of beer, it's not worthy of a patent. After all, it doesn't significantly advance the state of the art.
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Re:Oh please (Score:5, Funny)
Yup, that described by your clarification has certainly never been done before [bestwebbuys.com].
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Look in a dictionary.
Re:Oh please (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, that is true, but that doesn't make it any less straightforward and simple.
>"which is something I, for one, haven't seen before and think could be pretty useful..."
I, for one, have created a simple Perl-module which conjugates a given Latin verb in all tenses and forms. Let me tell you: conjugating a verb "on the fly" is trivial. Exceptions to every rule do, however, mess things up a little, but the exceptions themselves build up very simple and trivial rules.
Prior art? Hell, yeah!
Non-obvious? Hell, no!
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I don't mean to be rude, but this is the same attitude that leads to Microsoft (or anyone else) registering these crappy patents in the first place. FWIW, I have seen such a system before (Web-based, no less) wherein I could enter verbs (or nouns or any other words) in non-infinitive forms and the system would automatically
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Re:Oh please (Score:4, Insightful)
You very likely don't work in natural language processing. People have been generating whole paradigms for a long time. For a set of published examples, check out the Xerox Finite State Morphology [fsmbook.com] software and textbook. The software provides ways of describing the morphology and lexicon of a language and compiling it into an efficient finite state transducer. Once you've got the transducer, you can run it in either direction, that is, you can parse, or you can generate. A common test, and exercise in courses on doing this, is to generate the entire paradigm of a particular word or set of words.
Euroglot! (Score:3, Interesting)
Euroglot gives the user: all conjugations and declensions
Conjugations and declensions: * EuroglotOnline also recognizes declined words!
Hmmm, it seems Euroglot has been violating this patent application at least since 1999.
Nyh
Microsoft help... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Microsoft help... (Score:5, Funny)
clippy ? it's like weed .... (Score:2)
Never trust something that bleeds for days and doesn't die...
Re:Microsoft help... (Score:5, Funny)
Since Frankfurter copyrighted Bullshit, (Score:4, Funny)
Obligatory Simpsons Quote Thread (Score:5, Funny)
Yay, whatever (Score:5, Interesting)
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Irrelevant (Score:5, Insightful)
Prior art... (Score:2)
Misleading headline.... (Score:4, Insightful)
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MICROSOFT BAD!
PATENTS BAD!
SNARKY ATTENTION GRABBING HEADLINES GOOD!
I mean, seriously... how are we supposed to engage in shouting down the unpopular kids if you don't help out and raise your voice?
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C'mon, you just need to get into the Slashdot spirit of these things....
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The "specific method" is not very specific, it covers just about any way of doing it. So MS has a big club to beat any small company who makes a widget that achieves the same result, because they have to spend tens of thousands of dollars to get a patent lawyer to defend themselves, even if it's "obvious" their work was original. Ultimately, it just scares anyone away from even trying.
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Re:Misleading headline.... (Score:5, Informative)
One highly publized example is VirtualDub which no longer support the
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VirtualDub [wikipedia.org]
So yes Microsoft has no qualms about using their patents to stop open software being developed.
Not so misleading headline.... (Score:3, Insightful)
That specific method here is "on a computer." This is exactly the type of patent that slashdot people get up in arms about. The patent application requests that they be the only ones allowed to conjugate verbs on a computer.
Though, I for one [to welcome] our new language [to own] overlords. (btw, way to go article submitter. you've made something dull into something interesting.)
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Pretty accurate headline (Score:3, Insightful)
No, it isn't.
That's correct. In fact, you can just disregard the entire abstract, because what defines the scope of the patent are the claims. Each independent claim (a claim which does not refer to another claim) is an independent patent monopoly. Claim 1 is usually the broadest, so let's have a look at it:
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"A method in a computer system for conjugating verbs in a target language, the method comprising: receiving a verb in a base language; identifying verb forms in the target language using a translation of the received verb from the base language to the target language; and displaying the identified verb forms in the target language."
What is specific (or more importantly, non-obvious) about that?
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I agree that "patenting a method or system for performing X != patenting X", but does this really qualify? Both paper and compute
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"hey, I can do itnegration by hand. I can even do integrals using some very incredible estimation method. that means all the patents on computer software of doing integrals are invalid"
or even more similar:
"there are loads of textbooks taht compile answers to indefinite integrals. that means if mathematica does this on a computer, it is merely replicating what I could find in a book and therefore, non-patentable"
I'm not saying its the most ground breaking technology ever, bu
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Well, they are and/or should be. A method of doing integrals via computer software is still a mathematical method, and mathematics is not/should not be patentable (YMMV on patentability depending on your country of residence).
At best, a method of doing integrals by software qualifies as a trade secret.
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A method of doing ANYTHING via computer software is still a mathematical method [wikipedia.org].
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You must be new around here.
Microsoft patents the English language (Score:2)
What next? Speak Pig-Latin to avoid future infringements?
It's a method patent (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:It's a method patent (Score:5, Insightful)
Nowhere in this patent do they describe the method in anything but the broadest generality - they are not patenting a specific implementation (which is what covers programs under copyright law).
As you imply - it's not unusual but it's still a bad idea to allow method patents like this.
Which language? (Score:3, Interesting)
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The software patent system almost requires this (Score:5, Interesting)
If you have been following recent history you will see that Microsoft have been sued for just about anything they do with software, and often they have lost for even things like including something like an interactive control on a web page.
Given this, it only makes sense for them, or any company for that matter, to patent any ideas for present or future functionality that they might have.
Software patents are here to throttle the rapid development of technology to the point that the powers that be can keep up with what's going on.
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Sure. Likewise, if you are in a deep hole it only makes sense to keep digging. Not.
Wouldn't it make more sense for Microsoft to work to change the current totally broken patent system?
Oops. My mistake. That would be totally non-evil and thus violate Microsoft's mantra: "do evil".
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Actually I was sort of going for the conspiracy angle where the government delibrately criples the pace of commercial technology so that they have time to create new laws that govern the use of new technology.
Personally I think Software Patents are bad from the start, but have been manipulated by lawyers to be even worse. There is a kind of insurance like angle to taking out defensive patents, but then you just end up in court. Look at the mess that they lawyers have driven the medical insurance / medical
More prior art (Score:4, Informative)
Not that bad really (Score:5, Funny)
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Already exists (Score:2)
Other languages might be equally easy to find on the web.
Conjugate? (Score:5, Funny)
If we're thrown in prison for conjugating verbs... (Score:4, Funny)
Verbix (Score:2, Informative)
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Windows XP supports 92 languages (had to count) http://support.microsoft.com/kb/292246/ [microsoft.com]. Do we really want a company like Microsoft patenting this so-called method?
A new way of thinking of patents (Score:5, Interesting)
Yet, during WW2, the government invalidated many radio patents to spur progress (and help the war effort) and radio considerably advanced in that period. Also, computer science advanced very nicely in the US until software patents showed up.
It seems that, if anything, patents hinder progress in many cases. It seems to me that patents help in situations where there is no market yet or is very research heavy (drug industry) and help funnel research in such an area, but once a competitive market is established, it only hinders progress in many instances.
So a blanket ban on patents seem unfeasible but perhaps there should be a ban of patent by industry. Industries with rapid progress should have no patents because the promotion of science and advancement is obviously not needed.
OTOH, where there is very little market or industry itself has a high upfront/continuing costs - an extra incentive is needed (protection at the marketplace) and thus patents are necessary.
In other words, patents will be considered almost like tax incentives.
The problem with patents today, in lieu of manufacturing going overseas, is that the US is trying to pad its economy with IP, so the government as a whole has no incentive to be sparing of patents. This path is problematic and will impoverish us all over time. We really need to overhaul the patent system.
I would be particularly interested in hearing the opinions of historians who have studied scientific revolutions/industrial revolutions/economic upheavals of the past and what their opinions about the environment/variables that time has shown truly promote advancement/progress.
Ultima? (Score:2)
Le Conjugueur (Score:2, Insightful)
Utter BS (Score:2)
I'm going patent the act of not RTFA'ing - I'll make a fortune...
Prior art? (Score:2)
Yoda + Baseball (Score:3, Funny)
I suppose it'll make it easier to automate how Yoda talks.
I'm still waiting for them to surpass patenting "How to Tell When a Baseball Game is Exciting." or patenting their apple.
_________________________________________
It's going to take some work, although one never knows when opportunity will strike:
A local anchor once said, "...killed him to death..."
She left the city and returned (to a different station) and I was waiting for another one as she's also the "Health & Technology" reporter.
This time, however, it was the "alternative" anchor team (it's a mess) and the story was about acupuncture and overcoming issues in getting pregnant.
The anchor turned to her and said, "I guess it just takes a little prick, eh?". Deadpan.
If I'd have that taped, it would have been on YouTube about five minutes later, but alas...all I could do was change my boxers.
Slashdot's still Ok (Score:2)
Prior art 50 years ago (Score:2)
It looks as if M/S must have realised that the current generations of modern teachers are no longer able to teach much about grammar. Thus they have discovered yet another niche to fill, I didn't think there were any left, well good for them. That's ok but to be able patent it? Well, perhaps the next patent will be for the recognition of the glyphs and the deciphering thereof. a.k.a Optical Character Recognition and language analysi
Read Artstechnica (Score:2)
Don't really blame Microsoft (shock, horror - did I say that!) for what IMHO is stupidity, blame the Patent system.
Caution reading the patent will only give you a headache.
Major typo (Score:4, Funny)
US (Score:5, Insightful)
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First to File (Score:3, Interesting)
If this actually goes through (if it hasn't already), then all of the prior art in the world doesn't matter because the ruling goes to whoever files the patent first.
Basically adding yet another layer of bullshit on a completely broken system. The funny part is how companies like MS try to claim that firs
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The alternative scheme, which is used by many other countries, is to take the first submission.
As far as I know, there is no change in the rules for actually granting pat
Re:First to File (Score:4, Insightful)
Actually, there is a big change.
I have made a couple of inventions, which I did NOT want patents for. I want the general public to benefit from them (besides, filing for a patent is too expensive for my meagre budget).
Now Microsoft (or another evil big company) reads about my research, and files for a patent. The consequence is that they will get a patent for my work, which I did not allow them to get. And the main reason is that there is NO WAY to apply for NOT getting a patent. The only thing I can do is to publish my invention, and hope that it takes Microsoft more than one year to discover that publication. One year after first publication a patent cannot be applied for anymore, so that would make my invention safe.
It happens quite often that I present research at conferences, and someone in the audience gets up and asks with a gleam in his eye, "Did you apply for a patent yet?" I know what that guy is thinking.
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Wow! a chance for grammernazism to be on topic.
I believe that "is applying" is a compound verb of the present third person of to be (the "[he] is") & the present progressive of to apply (the "applying"). So I would say that the submitter got it right.
Now to whom do I have to write the cheque for this unauthorised use of verb conjugation?
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Re:This good. (Score:5, Funny)
(adverbs are ok right?)
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Prepare [to pay, inf] out the ass.
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