Blackboard Patenting Educational Groupware 223
chizz writes "Online learning provider Blackboard announced the other day that it has patented the Learning Management System (LMS). The very same day it went after Desire2Learn for Patent infringement in a truly Salt Lake City kinda way. A great many educators are a bit shook up by this, and are stockpiling prior art all over the place. "
Awful patent. (Score:3, Interesting)
It's a patent so bad it looks like the EPO won't grant it. Which is really saying something.
Re:Awful patent. (Score:5, Interesting)
I think I stopped reading shortly after that point, it would have hurt too much to continue.
There are no good software patents (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem is that there is no mechanism that can filter the very damaging software patents from the less-damaging ones. At least, as far as experience shows in the USA and Europe, any legal definition that allows some software patents can be systematically broadened to include them all.
The only barrier to the really damaging software patents - the ones that claim ownership of an entire software ecology - is a blanket ban on the patenting of software, period. In Europe this is called the "subject matter" criteria, which is the key barrier to software patents in Europe. Prior art, triviality, and industrial application (the other criteria) are hackable to mean anything one likes. Lawyers have also been hacking the subject matter, but it's harder, since the European Patent Convention clearly does not allow patents on computer programs. (The hack usually starts by saying, "ah, but we're not patenting the program, just the underlying methods...")
The Blackboard patent looks truly obvious, but that's not enough of an argument to invalidate it. One needs to prove it was unobvious when it was filed and that your prior art can be documented to before that date as well. I've seen in patent suits in Europe that this can be very difficult, even for well-funded firms. Once granted, a relevant patent has an even chance of surviving, no matter what you throw at it. Ask Microsoft... they've been at the sharp end often enough.
Eventually, we need to see a movement to ban the patenting of software in the USA, much like this movement already exists in Europe. The alternative is to see the software ecology get more and more subverted, to the point where small-to-medium firms cannot innovate any longer, which is a bad place to be in an information economy.
To those who say, "if it's a bad patent, fight it in court", please understand that being at the receiving end of such legal instruments is tantamount to being at the end of a large gun. Small firms cannot afford lawsuits, even frivoulous ones, and it's incredible that the USPTO should have turned into an accomplice and tool of such legalized extortions.
Who stands up for the small-to-medium IT firms?
Re:There are no good software patents (Score:2)
mod +5 stold my post.
Re:There are no good software patents (Score:3, Interesting)
- Can one define new open standards in a world with software patents?
- How are software patents different from business method patents?
- What does it mean to "patent software"? Are such patents not in fact patents on ideas?
- When should government create monopolies as a tool of trade? Should this be done by burocrats and specialists who
Re:There are no good software patents (Score:2)
NO. Patents are supposed to be a limited monopoly granted on a very specific implementation of an idea, e.g., a specific type of physical device/machine/etc. and it cannot be broad, e.g., one cannot (legally) patent a cylindrical steel fastening device and then turn around and sue nail and screw manufacturers for patent infringement.
Re:There are no good software patents (Score:2)
Of course such a distinction can be made. The rules for granting a patent are the basis, and if a granted patent follows the rules, then, by definition, it is good. The problem lies in patents that are granted that so obviously run afoul of the rules that they call into question the integrity of the entire patenting system. This is where the state of pate
Re:There are no good software patents (Score:3, Funny)
Stop whining. Why not donate to FFII [ffii.org]?
It's not just the patent... (Score:5, Insightful)
If this sounds somewhat like a rant- I encourage you to try either of these systems. I believe you'll come away just as frustrated. The notion of these systems gaining, or even trying to gain a stranglehold is very depressing.
I hope that not only are these patents denied but that Blackboard and WebCT get tied up in litigation until they go Chapter 11. If any market should be supportive of Open Source, I think the on-line learning marketplace is a natural. Having Blackboard and WebCT dominate is not good for us.
Re:It's not just the patent... (Score:2)
That said, I still hate it. Clemson had a reasonably usable system that they developed (and hence could have continued to develop) that they abandoned wholesale in favor of BB, which ALL of the professors I have spoken to either HATE or are indifferent to. None of them actually like it, and a large number refuse to use it on ideological grounds (from wh
Linux support: WAS: Re:It's not just the patent... (Score:4, Informative)
I would also point out before this becomes a "Blackboard hates Linux" thread, that Blackboard has always released its product for Linux and I believe most of their hosting business runs on Linux as well.
Re:Linux support: WAS: Re:It's not just the patent (Score:2)
http://library.blackboard.com/docs/bbas_r7_0_brows er_requirements.pdf [blackboard.com]
NB: NO mention of Linux. Do you really want to use Firefox 1.0? I mean is it even available? I don't see Konqueror anywhere. There's NO reason why every box in that chart shouldn't be checked that I can see. Keeping the system simple and usable would avoid the problems.
Re:Linux support: WAS: Re:It's not just the patent (Score:2)
Re:It's not just the patent... (Score:2)
It's not a matter of those environments being buggy, the on-line systems go out of their way (in my observation) to break things by making even the simpliest function a c
Moodle (Score:2)
Re:Moodle (Score:2)
Nothing, as the patent isn't even worth the paper it's written on.
Re:Moodle (Score:2)
You must be new here. Even a baseless patent gains value when it's backed up by an army of lawyers and a few million dollars.
The actual truth or falsehood of facts dim in relative importance compared to who can afford to defend them in court.
Re:Moodle (Score:2)
Re:Moodle (Score:2)
Given the potential monopoly situation, a judge might decide to throw out the case regardless. I doubt it, though.
Re:Moodle (Score:2)
Prior art=all content management systems (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Prior art=all content management systems (Score:3)
Here's a pathetic example of the crap the USPO grants: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6368227.html [freepatentsonline.com] (a method for swinging
Re:Prior art=all content management systems (Score:5, Informative)
then you probably could jam-through a patent for just about anything [uspto.gov]
Asstrology (Score:2)
The astrology one is actually kind of fun reading :
Mathematics Too (Score:2)
UK patent - GB2322704, is a patenting of the generalised radon transform.
Re:Prior art=all content management systems (Score:2)
Re:Prior art=all content management systems (Score:2)
1. A method of identifying groups within an Identity System of which a user of the Identity System is a member, the method comprising: determining a set of groups of which the user is a static member based on a group identity profile for each of one or more groups within the Identity System, wherein the group identity profile for each of the one or more groups within the Identity System defines static members of the group; d
Re:Prior art=all content management systems (Score:2)
Well, evidently, they can and they have.
ANother example (Score:5, Informative)
Re:ANother example (Score:2)
It's not that grand of a CMS, either.
Don't Fight the Patent.. (Score:2)
Seriously, their admin interface is one of the most horrible I have ever come across.
Blackboard (Score:2)
Blackboard should be shunned and loathed (most educators I know who use it and who have any sense loathe it already - it seems to be beloved more of administrators).
I only use blackboard as a way to collect and return assignments. It is awkward, painful and easy to goof with (for example, returning notes on an assignment to the wrong person). The only reason I use it is that my homebrew version which used a web interface and Postgresql and which was very hard indeed to goof with, was considered arcane
WebCT (Score:4, Informative)
I've just lost a lot of respect for these guys with this patent BS. Long live Moodle!
Stockpiling prior art? (Score:4, Interesting)
If they can prove in a court of law that there is prior art, I don't see what the fuss is all about. Whatever stupid patent the attacking company shows, it will be laughed out of court and will probably be declared null and void.
Of course, that's assuming the judge involved in this case still has functioning grey matter, which may be a bit too optmistic. Then again, SCO is in dire straits, so there is still hope...
One thing is certain though: this case proves, if that was still needed, that the US Patent Office does not have any grey matter left. I mean, another (fairly-obvious-sounding) patent that could be invalidated with prior art? How many of these exist out there "in the wild", to be used by rich b______s?
Re:Stockpiling prior art? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Stockpiling prior art? (Score:3, Funny)
Because without patents no one would innovate!!
Won't someone please think of the little guy inventors!!!
Re:Stockpiling prior art? (Score:2)
Re:Stockpiling prior art? (Score:2)
Re:Stockpiling prior art? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Stockpiling prior art? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Stockpiling prior art? (Score:2)
Re:They're not idiots (Score:2)
Do they have the right to patent it? (Score:2, Interesting)
If Ford built a car and sold it to you without patenting it, could you then turn around and patent it?
Re:Do they have the right to patent it? (Score:3, Insightful)
Software patents are not patents on particular pieces of software, but on concepts. Blackboard didn't patent their or someone else's implementation of a CMS geared towards education, but the generic principle of such a CMS.
Re:Do they have the right to patent it? (Score:3, Interesting)
No, you can only patent what you yourself have actually invented. Buying somebody's product and then patenting inventions contained in it is fraud.
Patenting Insecurity (Score:2, Informative)
http://seclists.org/lists/fulldisclosure/2006/Jul
Salt Lake City kinda way? (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Salt Lake City kinda way? (Score:2)
Hey, compared to this morning's Ask Slashdot: "What is this World coming to? Do you think they went to far?", it's solid journalism.
Re:Salt Lake City kinda way? (Score:2, Informative)
Shouldn't it be 'Lindon kinda way?' (Score:2)
SCO filed the lawsuits (IBM & Novell, the AutoZone & DaimlerChrysler suits were filed elsewhere) in Utah because SCO is based in Utah. Also, SCO is based in Lindon, Utah, not Salt Lake City so I'm not sure how SLC is then associated with SCO - maybe because the court is located in SLC?
Not a Salt Lake City thing (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Not a Salt Lake City thing (Score:3, Funny)
What's wrong with them? Bad service?
Re:Not a Salt Lake City thing (Score:2)
Actually, acording to the complaint it appears to have been filed in the Eastern District Court of Texas. Which is interesting given that I think that may be one of the shopping areas for attorneys seeking to get a large judgement against a company.
A side note about the infringement lawsuit (Score:5, Interesting)
But the suit itself is being filed in Texas, and the suit names statutes that give the court jurisdiction.
Does this mean they chose this court because it's run by Bushies who instinctively love monoplizers and hate entrepreneurs? Or is there another reason for this choice of venue?
In a logical world, you'd expect the lawsuit to be filed where one or the other of the companies has its HQ.
I know, it's not a logical world. The USPTO proves that. But this geographical silliness is another example of the general legal ludicrosities we USians now deal with instead of having sensible laws and courts.
Fah!
- Robin
Re:A side note about the infringement lawsuit (Score:2)
Re:A side note about the infringement lawsuit (Score:5, Informative)
The suit, like almost all recent patent suits, was filed in the E.D. of Texas because the district is a "rocket docket" - i.e. cases are quickly tried there. The E.D. Texas also has tremendous patent experience, as their judges have presided over several patent cases (which is rare in most other districts). The juries also tend to me more educated (and pro-patent/inventor) than in most other areas.
This has never been the rule or law in the U.S. - a federal suit can be filed anywhere where there is personal jurisdiction and venue. As the allegedly infringing products are probably offered for sale or sold in the E.D. of Texas, the requirements for jurisdiction and venue are likely easily met.
Suits are rarely brought where the defendant has a large presence because juries and judges always favor the hometown team (imagine Toyota suing Ford in Michigan).
Desire2Sue (Score:2)
From Blackboard's website:
"For nearly a decade, Blackboard has been a thought leader in the e-Learning industry and has developed products that have helped to fundamentally alter how educational institutions and their educators teach and communicate with students," said Michael Chasen, CEO of Blackboard.
We were fundamental
Blackboard sucks. (Score:5, Interesting)
When released their Blackboard 6 software caused all kinds of trouble in time lost and support at my college, to the point where a Bb rep came out to apologize to IT and the instructors. One instructor stood up and demanded that Bb make reparations for money spent in lost time.
My college also uses them for student organizations. But I'll tell you, Google Groups and independent hosting makes for a more effective solution. For one, a Blackboard cluster doesn't share session data across servers--each server maintains session data locally, which means you can't use HTML links to point to resources within Blackboard, from within Blackboard. In fact, you can't hardlink to a Blackboard resource, period.
The discussion board software is designed to be reset after every semester, which means you have to delete and recreate a Blackboard module each time, which leads to more work for instructors. The semester-centric view also makes the discussion software clunky for student organizations, which only reset once per year, if at all. I have to sift through comments dating back to September of last year before I get to recent material. Plus, there's no way to archive and search the comments.
The announcement mechanism doesn't support RSS, or even--as far as I can find--a way to send out emails automatically when announcements are created.
I could go on...I've been bending this software to my needs for a few years now.
I wish I could put my name to this, but I won't. I'm a little too paranoid for that.
Re:Blackboard sucks. (Score:2)
Blackboard vs everyone else in OS terms. (Score:2)
Imagine for a moment that at the dawn of the PC era some jackass had built an OS that lost data on a regular basis, didn't run reliably and could be trusted with your information for just about as far as you could throw the computer it was running on. Then imagine that the user interface made DOS 1.0 look like Mac OS X by comparison.
Now imagine the
Re:Blackboard sucks. (Score:2, Informative)
Since we're dealing with grades and other personal information the first thing I set about was running it over SSL. \
Nope. Can't do it. Blackboard's basic license does not support SSL. You would think it'd be a non-issue. That the communication c
Re:Blackboard sucks. (Score:3, Insightful)
I found this really great software product, called moodle, with very little effort you could use it to train your faculty to use it. The point is that our present world has become insanely dynamic, and very few fields have much if any knowlege that is able to last more than 5-7 years any way; look how fast web programming blew through the Perl-PHP-Java-PHP-Python-ROR cycles. The value of education
Mr. Moodle says: Don't worry! (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Mr. Moodle says: Don't worry! (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Mr. Moodle says: Don't worry! (Score:2)
Politically that seems almost suicidal to try if faculty have bought into Blackboard.
Has anyone written any papers about this process?
Re:Mr. Moodle says: Don't worry! (Score:2, Insightful)
Clemson uses it, and it really pissed off the professors when it was purchased and the perfectly usable prior interface was abandoned wholesale (developed in house, and not too bad).
Moodle needs to have (if they don't) a "BB Migration Tool" that reads the BB database a
As a manager of a college's Open Source CMS (Score:5, Informative)
I can't imagine this isn't a long term strike against the Open Source LMSs out there. There's no real commercial competition anymore in the field with WebCT gone. Desire2Learn, Angel and the rest are ants under the feet of the Blackboard elephant, but Sakai and Moodle are getting real traction- the real buzz at EDUCAUSE isn't at the BB booth but at Sakai talks, the college just up the road dumped BB for Moodle this summer, etc.
I had a long conversation with some BB salesdroids last year and they more or less admitted that BB's long term future isn't their LMS, it's the OneCard system. They get a cut out of every purchase made with it, and it's a real cash cow.
Re:As a manager of a college's Open Source CMS (Score:2)
Yeah, and that thing's even more craptastic than their content management junk!
Re:As a manager of a college's Open Source CMS (Score:2)
The European sister patent application [espacenet.com] is still pending. I can perfectly imagine the European Patent Office (EPO) holding it valid though. After all, they already granted patents for e.g. submitting data to a database via forms [espacenet.com] and computer-based testing [espacenet.com].
Blackboard is such a piece of shit (Score:5, Interesting)
From a D2L Technician POV... (Score:2, Interesting)
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Too early... (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Too early... (Score:2)
"Blackbeard Patenting Educational Groupware"
I think the pirate anology for the US patent system is quite appropriate. It holds up commerce, seemingly at random. Loots the cash and rapes the survivors.
Educational software makes me laugh (Score:4, Interesting)
I would venture to say that the vast majority of software marketed to schools/universities is pure crap. And the best part is, it's MASSIVELY overpriced, too, since most schools get government grants to buy this stuff (and, again, the people who approve these purchases generally have no idea what the stuff is worth).
Screw all of the educational software companies. They're leeches feeding of the ignorance of stupid administrators and pork-barrel funding.
Re:Educational software makes me laugh (Score:2, Insightful)
We've been using WebCT since '98 and conti
Punishment for Blackboard (Score:3, Insightful)
Bad form! (Score:2)
What a crock...
Tom
d2l conference (Score:3, Interesting)
Blackboard Admin (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Blackboard Admin (Score:2)
Oh the irony... (Score:3, Funny)
"For example, a lawyer may create a course in patent law online..."
I think the lawyer will have to learn patent law before he can be sure he can do this...
What does this mean for Sakai? (Score:3, Interesting)
Is there anyone here on the Sakai team, or other Sakai users who can shed some light on this issue?
Re:What does this mean for Sakai? (Score:2, Informative)
In our case we're outside the US in a teritory where this sort of thing is not patentable so we're saffer than most.
I'm actually at the D2L user's conference now... (Score:5, Informative)
The CEO of D2L, John Baker, wrote this LMS while a grad student enrolled at the University of Guelph in Ontario Canada. The facts scream "prior art" and Blackboard really has no case IMHO. I think the strategy here, as John put it, is to sue D2L to a point where it'd be in D2L's best interest to avoid expensive litigation and just get taken over by Blackboard. The hidden backstory here is that Blackboard wants so badly to take over D2L but D2L doesn't want any part of that. So Blackboard takes the other, more scenic route: sue them into oblivion.
I can almost guarantee that Blackboard will lose this suit. The fact that D2L existed before Blackboard was even a gleam in the eye of its writer is 98% of the case.
In any way, John was so confident about his ability to win this suit he gave us all extra drink tickets!
Re:I'm actually at the D2L user's conference now.. (Score:3, Insightful)
As much as I'd like to believe this, 98% percent of the case is who can throw more money at it. I hope D2L is passing the hat around at the user's conference, because they are going to need a big pile of cash if they want to survive a patent-infringement suit.
I also hope that they're privately held; an infringement suit -- even a baseless one -- would be a nice way of driving the share price down low eno
Re:I'm actually at the D2L user's conference now.. (Score:2)
I'm as cynical as the next guy, but honestly, the system isn't that corrupt. If it were, the US would look more like Mexico or an African country.
"But the US is as corrupt as an African country!" - no it isn't. Rhetoric isn't evidence. Believing it in the face of all evidence to the contrary is not wisdom. "Rampant corruption around every corner" and "world's largest economy" do not go together.
It is still true t
Suckfest (Score:2)
Overblown patent scare (Score:5, Informative)
This patent will not matter much. I don't see any particular reason to worry about it and here's why (IANAL!):
1. The patent relies on 44 claims, most of which can easily be shown to be prior art. (Ironically, WebCT, which was bought out by BlackBoard might be used as a counterexample of prior art).
3. To violate the Patent you would have to be substantially equivalent [yahoo.com]. Essentially this means someone would have to substantially rely on Blackboard's look and feel for providing LMS services.
4. The patent heavily relies on the concept of "files" - like our old system, which used flat files for information management (no, we did not and could not develop for the then popular (1998-1999) Sun + Oracle combo -- too big and too expensive for us and most schools at the time). An LMS using a Relational Database may be sufficiently different enough in implementation.
5. The patent differention seems to be at this part:
"The present invention also enhances the prior art by providing a flexible infrastructure for colleges, universities, and other institutions wishing to facilitate on-line registration and tuition payment. More specifically, the present invention can accommodate different billing methods, including, but not limited to, billing on a per-credit-hour basis, and billing on a per-registrant basis."
So, unless you are looking to build a Blackboard clone using a flat-file data management system including an integrated payment system, I really don't see anything to fret about.
(Disclaimer - As I said above, I am not a lawyer, and I certainly would love to see a more sophisticated legal analysis).
Re:Overblown patent scare (Score:3, Interesting)
1. The patent relies on 44 claims, most of which can easily be shown to be prior art. (Ironically, WebCT, which was bought out by BlackBoard might be used as a counterexample of prior art).
Each claim stands or falls on its own. In other words, if a competitor is infringing just *one* of those claims, it doesn't matter whether every other claim is invalidated.
3. To violate the Patent you would have to be substantially equivalent. Essentially this means someone would have to substantially rely on Black
The real reason they're trying to patent this... (Score:3, Interesting)
The biggest deal has been its tendency to erase grades, lose testing results, etc. It has been a nightmare for students and teachers a like. That aside, talking with the IT administrative staff, Blackboard has a tendency to defer responsibility to other problems, even though time and time again, blame clearly falls on bugs in their software. This annoyed a lot of people, so much in fact, that the IS department faculty have started an initiative to code a new one, from scratch, in Java.
So what would Blackboard's natural response be to customers deciding that they can create their own CMS? Why not patent it? Then they're locked into using their software! May the patent Gods strike this one down quick!
Re:The real reason they're trying to patent this.. (Score:2)
Disclaimer: I've worked on LON-CAPA [loncapa.org], but I mean that in general. Pick up one of the existing ones and extend it. I don't know if any are in Java, but I wouldn't be
Re:The real reason they're trying to patent this. (Score:4, Informative)
Why? It's not like there aren't already a lot [lon-capa.org] of highly capable [moodle.org] Open Source LMSs [dokeos.com] out there [dotlrn.org], some are even written in Java [sakaiproject.org].
Depending on your needs, any of these could work fine. We've been running on Dokeos for the past three years, and although our needs aren't high it's worked quite well.
question about the lawsuit... (Score:2)
Well hopefully (Score:2)
So you know, GOOD systems can flourish
Can you say "prior art" (Score:3, Interesting)
For the life of me, this is one of those patents that is so obvious and has so much prior art that is makes you think the patent office is a rubber stamp for industry. Oh wait.
TO: USPTO
FROM: Clue Stick
RE: Blackboard patent
Read this:
Online Learning Timeline [moodle.org]
Can we say "Prior Art"?!? (Score:3, Interesting)
I am sure that companies like IBM, SumTotal Systems, Plateau, Saba, Oracle (iLearning), and Learn.com will have plenty to say about it. Especially since several of these companies (or generally pieces of these companies - since they tend to merge a lot in the LMS world) have had working LMS systems for far longer than Blackboard has been in existence.
Hell, when SumTotal Systems acquired Pathlore Software (which is all the way from Goul - they inherited more than 20 years worth of LMS code... we are talking mainframe days here - and I hear that a lot of that stuff is still running. Prior art abounds... this is a horrible patent anyway.
What happened to Zope4Edu? (Score:3, Interesting)
Why now? (Score:2)
Why would a company that already controls the biggest share of the university market seek to eliminate the small players with an expensive patent suit. They already aquired their biggest competitor so its basically just them and some smaller companies and schools that choose to build their own. They also have yet to attempt to compete in the highschool market. This lawsuit is a distraction at best. Patents are not
Re:blackboard is cool (Score:2)