Paul Thurrott Bitten by WGA

suntory writes "Paul Thurrott, one of the most important Microsoft advocates, has been bitten by Windows Genuine Advantage. As some Slashdot users have reported, Paul installed a bunch of updates in his machine and now Microsoft thinks that he is using pirated software." From the post: "Truthfully, I can only imagine what triggered these alerts. The software was installed to a VM a long time ago and archived on my server. I no doubt used a copy of XP MCE 2005 that I had received as part of my MSDN subscription. If the WGA alerts are to be believed, it's possible that Microsoft thinks I've installed this software on too many machines, though that seems unlikely to me. I can't really say. Anyway, that's what it looks like to be a suspected pirate. Like many people who will see these alerts, I don't believe I did anything wrong. I'm sure that's going to be a common refrain in this new era of untrusting software and companies. Ah well."

Even if done by M$FT, it's still spyware...

The acceptable face of spyware

Dear Bill:

The following argument is so old it should probably be modded redundant, but given Steve's mental faculties [nyud.net], perhaps it bears repeating.

1 - Pirates will not be hurt by this as they have corporate keys, etc
2 - Genuine customers will be annoyed by this
3- Therefore this makes no sense

By presupposing your customers are dishonest Microsoft creates tremendous ill-will. This would, of course, normally be a bad thing. Worse - they have that nice monopoly so it doesn't really matter. This causes unhappiness and resentment, even amongst ridiculous Redmond fanbois like Paul Thurrott and Ed Bott.

So, my friends, there is only one way out. If we want to be happy [northwestern.edu], Windows must be kill -9'd [stanford.edu].

Re:Even if done by M$FT, it's still spyware...

I think this is just brilliant... seriously.. Every time I hear legiment users of windows getting p***** off, or angry because their windows won't work, or that they can't install patch updates because they've installed new hardware, it really lightens up my day.

No, I don't revel in customers unsatisfactory, it bugs me, but I do laugh at how microsoft is loosing popularity and a user base extremely fast due to this.

Ubuntu, Here we come!

p.s. Ubuntu has released a version today based on the 2.6.17 kernel, and that kernel includes many new supported wireless cards, one of which I have in my laptop (broadcom 4308)

Re:Even if done by M$FT, it's still spyware...

I've seen many atempts to bend the "average user" into one or another direction in order to support ones position (no wonder with such a non-term), but this one borders on the absurd.

Re:Even if done by M$FT, it's still spyware...

Straw man. You were complaining that "average users" that also happen to be gamers are better of with Windows. While gamers may indeed be better served by the platform that runs their libraries it has nothing to do with beeing "average users". Because whoever those "average users" they may be, they are certainly not gamers.

Re:Even if done by M$FT, it's still spyware...

Back in the 1980s, Yosemite National Park was having a serious problem with bears: They would wander into campgrounds and break into the garbage bins. This put both bears and people at risk. So the Park Service started installing armored garbage cans that were tricky to open -- you had to swing a latch, align two bits of handle, that sort of thing. But it turns out it's actually quite tricky to get the design of these cans just right. Make it too complex and people can't get them open to put away their garbage in the first place. Said one park ranger, "There is considerable overlap between the intelligence of the smartest bears and the dumbest tourists."

I've forgotten why I mentioned this, but it had to do with the considerable overlap between our individual opinions of an "average user."

Re:Even if done by M$FT, it's still spyware...

It's more like "mainly if you're a gamer."

The vast majority of people out there are not doing anything remotely "important" with their computers, and most are just surfing and emailing and chatting an so forth. In other words, no difference.

I run Windows at home, but then I play a lot of games, and like most people when it's my leisure time I don't want to spend half of it getting Linux to play a game I can "just play" on Windows.

I would argue it's almost exclusively gamers who need to suffer Windows.

Re:Even if done by M$FT, it's still spyware...

I have to call bullshit on this one. The areas in which Windows is better than Linux for a nontechnical user are a lot more numerous than just games. I know this firsthand: I tried to replace XP with Ubuntu on my girlfriend's laptop about six months ago and ended up giving up after a week of screwing with it. (And I am not a nontechnical user.) She does not play any games on her laptop. Here's what I spent that week trying to get working:

• Asian input methods. My girlfriend is from Taiwan and sends email to her friends back home, but she primarily wants her computer to be English-language. In Windows, getting Chinese input to work on an English install of the OS takes, oh, roughly 90 seconds or so of clicking around in the control panel UI, and once enabled it works perfectly in virtually every common modern desktop application. Linux, not so much -- please edit your X configuration, please do one thing if you're running GNOME and something else if you're running KDE, oh, and by the way, don't expect to be able to enter Chinese characters when you run an app since most of them either don't handle alternate input methods at all or are only compatible with the input system you aren't using. (I am not blowing smoke on this -- Mark Shuttleworth specifically mentioned lousy Asian input support as one of the reasons he wanted to delay the next Ubuntu release.)
• Media playing. Bitch all you want about how it's the fault of patents or closed formats from evil companies, the fact of the matter is that you can browse the web on a Windows machine and expect to be able to watch most of the video you come across, and listen to most of the music you come across. Linux? Well, if you're willing to violate the law, and you happen to know how to configure your system to install packages from nonstandard repositories, you can hack together support for some of the common formats. Not all of them, but hey, you didn't really want to watch that movie preview, did you?
• Device support. Just try hooking up, say, a Canon scanner (I have one; it works fine on my Mac and my Windows boxes, but it's a doorstop when I'm running Linux.) Again, is this the fault of Linux per se? Maybe not. As a nontechnical user do I care whose fault it is when I want to scan something I could scan when I was running Windows? Nope.
• Fonts. The ones that come with all the Linux distros I've tried are clunky, and they vary in size between font families in odd ways that make a lot of Web pages look funny. Yep, I know all about the Microsoft Core Fonts package. It is not installed by default. It is not in the default repositories on a new system. If I am a nontechnical user it is therefore nigh-irrelevant.

Okay, that's probably enough. The point is that there's more wrong than just games. I completely agree that if all you want to do is read simple HTML email and visit non-multimedia web sites, you don't want to listen to music or watch DVDs, you don't have any devices other than a keyboard, mouse and monitor, you only want to input text in one language, and you never need to trade Word documents or Excel spreadsheets with someone who cares what the formatting looks like, then Linux on the desktop is definitely ready for your nontechnical-user needs!

Re:Even if done by M$FT, it's still spyware...

In response to the parent post:

Linux is ready for the desktop... it is the wrong question to ask...
The real question is, "Is Linux ready for you?"

And Linux still has quite a lot to offer gamers, it just depends on what your demands are.

From the top of my head, a few native Linux games:
FPS:
- Quake (1 through 4)
- UT (99, 2k3, 2k4)
- W:ET
- Sauerkraut / Cube 2
- Warsow
- Legends

Strategy:
- Freeciv
- Savage (1 and the soon to be released 2)
- Darwinia

Well the list goes on, and it quite extensive (not all are Tetris-clones).
And you can run games in Wine or in Cedega.

But the question you should ask yourself is, 'Is Linux ready for me?'
If the answer to that question is "no", then indeed Linux is not ready for YOUR desktop.

Re:Even if done by M$FT, it's still spyware...

Yet I and my wife use it daily. I did nothing the average user couldn't do. We don't have many games, but then, we only play atitd really.

The hardest part was downloading and installing the game, or maybe burning the CD for the installation of Kubuntu.

I am, on the other hand, unable to install windows (XP). Since my wife's internet banking no longer needs windows, I luckily don't need it anymore.

But if you want the broad selection of games windows offer, there is no way around WGA, the cost, the upgrades, and the hopeless install. So for that group, windows (or PS3/Xbox/Gamecube or whatever they are called) is the only option.

As usual, what you really need for a succesful install of anything is...luck. So, take care of your Karma ;)

Re:Even if done by M$FT, it's still spyware...

Ok, I'm getting off topic and I've posted this before, but I guess a tad late and no one noticed. I'm reposting as the issue of games always comes up and I want to see what people think of this. The discussion was originally WoW on linux via wine...

It would be a lot easier for them to port if all games were opengl. I remember way back when John Carmack had his open letter to microsoft on the merits of opengl. Unfortunately, it seems d3d (even though crap back then) has won out in the end. Not that it's better than opengl, it could be now, but that's beside the point. Microsoft saw how big gaming was getting and wanted to tie developers and as a result it's users to one platform.

I think a turning point was the release of half life. Even though being a quake 1 engine game (don't start the q1/q2 halflive thing) it's default support was d3d. If valve stayed native opengl when that game exploded, we might have seen co's like ati get their act in gear a lot earlier with better opengl support. And potentially might have become a more attractive option for future developers.

Glad carmack still codes for win,nix, os X just cause he thinks 'it's a good thing.' Too bad developers like him are far and few between.

Consumers can kill something off like a plague when they are aware of the hardware/software tie in, like the death of the original divx hardware players, but when consumers (even tech savvy ones) don't think about it, or don't care what goes on behind the scenes, things like this happen.

I can't really see it changing drastically now. You hear about the odd port from a company which is great but the only way a lot of games to be natively available on linux is for linux to all of a sudden gain huge market share (hopefully one day, but still a long ways off).

If/when that time comes, developers would have to look at their development strategy, it will be a hassle to support d3d and opengl. So if they did see a market for both windows and linux they'd most likely consider opengl from the get go.

So, it would be nice to at least have more developers using opengl now, so the option is there for a port, but again I can't see that happening. People would have to do something radical and boycott a game and state the reason is because it uses d3d which is enforcing the tie-in of games to only one platform.

And just look at the moves microsoft can pull when they have this clout. Halo 2 being directx 10 only. Please... An xbox 1 port requiring the latest d3d. A strong arm tactic for vista if I ever saw one.

So I'm going to add this, can we actually blame developers for the state of affairs of linux gaming? Should we hold them accountable? See the majority of people do not care about anything except (in this case) what's best for their company. I mentioned Carmack because someone should be recognized when they do something knowing it's not necessarily the profitable move, it's just that they think it's right.

Bigger man than I

He certainly is a bigger man than I. I can say that I would have been as diplomatic in his situation. Then again, what are the chances of that.

Re:Bigger man than I

Look at it again ... I'm sure that's going to be a common refrain in this new era of untrusting software and companies. Ah well."

That's not someone who's being a "bigger" person. That's resignation. That's yet another person who'll refuse to look at alternatives and will stick with Microsoft. Why? I don't know, I really don't ... and I find it scary.

Re:Bigger man than I

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it."
-=-Upton Sinclair

Because he's a Lackey Wuss

Its because this guy is a complete and total Lackey Wuss! He has a legitimate copy of a product and - from what I gather - is a journalistic outlet.

He has an opportunity to voice the opinions and concerns of the people and instead chose to bend over and take one right in the arse!

Thanks Paul and Fuck You very much!

Re:Bigger man than I

That's yet another person who'll refuse to look at alternatives and will stick with Microsoft. Why? I don't know, I really don't ... and I find it scary.

"The people hate the lizards and the lizards rule the people."
"Odd," said Arthur, "I thought you said it was a democracy."
"I did," said Ford, "it is."
"So," said Arthur, hoping he wasn't sounding ridiculously obtuse, "why don't the people get rid of the lizards?"
"It honestly doesn't occur to them. They've all got the vote, so they all pretty much assume that the government they've voted in more or less approximates the government they want."
"You mean they actually vote for the lizards."
"Oh yes," said Ford with a shrug, "of course."
"But," said Arthur, going for the big one again, "why?"
"Because if they didn't vote for a lizard, then the wrong lizard might get in."
              --Douglas Adams, 'So Long and Thanks for All the Fish...'

Re:Bigger man than I

I can understand why he still sticks with Windows. It's probably similar to the reason I've stuck with Windows. I'm not a PC gamer. There's very few tasks I do in WinXP that I couldn't do in Linux (or a Mac OS at that). The problem is it's just too much damn work to get there. Sure Linux might be free but my time is just as valuable as money and the time cost required to make the switch to linux is more then what they charge for windows in $$s.

I don't know anything about Linux... nothing at all. before I'd even get started I'd have to do research into what the best distribution for me is. before I even do that I need to find outlets online that I trust to provide me with a useful comparison of the different distributions as well as making sure it's up-to-date, unbiased, and complete.

Then I'd need to determine if all of my hardware actually supports Linux. If it fails this test it's probably not even worth it. My 5 year old laptop isn't exactly upgradeable and My desktop's got fairly new hardware which I'm not too keen on replacing if I need to.

If I get past the hardware hurdle then I'd need to do some research on how to install it. What new commands do I need to learn? how do I install hardware drivers (since they're not just plug and play like Windows where everything auto-magic-ly works). Is there a specific order I need to get my hardware up and running? What happens if I run into problems? I need to find places where can I get help. How do I get online to ask for help if Linux isn't up and running yet? Even if I have a 2nd computer how do I transfer data between the two if one doesn't have drivers for the communication outlets (NIC, CD, etc.) yet?

Now that I get past installing it I need to completely re-learn all the quirks of the OS where settings are hidden, what the right click menus look like. Even if I can customize it THAT would take a considerable amount of time learning HOW to customize it.

Now I need to find alternative software, Open Office instead of MS office, GIMP instead of Photoshop, etc. etc. etc. some are apparent others I'm not so sure. I do a whole lot of burning do they make Nero for Linux? what about video editing? I do that on occasion. What kind of Micro-controller tools are available or will I have to dual boot windows just to flash my pic chips and debug/compile my MCU code?

Once I've found all my new software I need to re-learn how to use all of those programs. And even after all of that I STILL have to use Windows at work making those old habits really die hard.

90% of the time Windows works fine for me. I've had fantastic up-time with XP SP2 (it's amazing how well your PC runs if you don't visit trashy web-sites and don't constantly install random garbage software). I know how to use Windows and I never have to worry about software or hardware compatibility. As long as there's a square hole for my square peg I just plug it in and it works, I don't even have to bother with drivers.

There's no good reason for me to switch other then for the sake of switching. I'm not adverse to the proposal but it's a whole mountain of labor just to get to where I already am... Security is not a compelling reason, I have a strong (linux based) firewall and use Firefox instead of IE. I keep a virus scanner running regular checks. and I can't even remember the last time my PC crashed (I'm working on an uptime of about 32 days right now, and the last re-boot was because of a power outage).

If I knew of a good resource to help someone like me; without any Linux knowledge at all, get up and running then I'd probably set aside some free time to at least ATTEMPT a dual boot... but as it is right now it's just too much work and without a compelling reason, not worth wasting my free time.

After all of that it would seem going to Apple would be an easier option then Linux... but then I'd have to buy a new computer, one more expensive then the computer I already own (provided it has comparable power). And then the ar

Doc Leaf

You can remove the sting from WGA bites by wiping some doc leaves over your keyboard and mouse.

Only one thing to say...

Nelson's Ha Ha!

Genuine Disadvantage

Didn't you know?
You have to keep buying your Windows software every year or two in order to update it, how else is Microsoft going to stay the biggest software company in the world?

Re:Not that I expected

Fixing the computers of friends and family, I've had occassion to call in to Microsoft on licensing issues quite a few times. They've always been tremendously helpful, non-judgemental and ready to listen. It's not a perfect system, but it's fairly well designed to handle false-positives and take care of mistakes fairly. It does put them at a competitive disadvantage in that I'd rather buy a product that didn't have activation and authentication, but that's their call to make. I have a problem with our government subsidizing enforcement, but what a private company does with it's own product is fair game, as long as they let me know about it before I buy it.

Re:Not that I expected

The one and only time I ever had to call, I was immediately accused of installing the software on too many machines. They were so quick to jump the gun on it, that I know damn well they couldn't have been actually looked at the history for the software since it had been activated ONCE on the EXACT same hardware on ONE machine almost a year prior.

That is the ONE problem I have with Microsoft's software: they see pirates around every corner and their customers are criminals.

Re:Not that I expected

Which is interesting because when I replaced the hard drive in my laptop, which required me to reactivate Windows for the gosh knows how many'th time (The machine and the software is 5 years old almost, I bought it used which meant it was activated at least twice before I bought it - once on the original purchase and once when it was wiped to be resold) the software didn't want to activate by itself since it said it had been activated too many times already. The conversation with the person on the phone went something like this:

MS: Thank you for calling Microsoft, can I have the installation id that's on your screen?
Me: (reads long number)
MS: Thank you. (pause) Ok, how many machines has this been installed on? (You could read this as someone accusing me of piracy, but it's a pretty reasonable question when some people might not realise you're not supposed to install on numerous machines)
Me: Just the one
MS: And why do you need to reactivate?
Me: Replaced the hard drive in my laptop.
MS: Ok, I'm going to read out an activation number for you to put in the box, and you should be ok. (Gives me long number)

Very polite, minimal questions, took less than 5 minutes, and it was at 11:30 at night on a Saturday.

Now, it's fair enough to say that there might not be a real need for activation, that MS is being boneheaded by requiring it, or that they should be more trusting of their customers; these are all fair comments. It's also possible that you might have had a phone agent on a bad day. I just know from my experience that they've been always very very polite and if they err, it's on the side of permissiveness. I also assume that if I was hyper-sensitive and acted like a jerk, they might have been less polite to me. I would never suggest that was the case with you of course.

Re: No big deal?

(EG. One time, I tried to explain that my Windows activation problem was due to experimenting with installing my copy inside Virtual PC, and I had since removed that - and just wanted to put it back on my original PC like it was supposed to be. That was met with the support person repeating the question over and over, "How many total computers have you installed Windows on?" They seemed to have no idea what I was talking about.....)

What is so weird about that? Because they work in one department of a tech company, they aren't suddenly turned into technical virtuosos, or even technically literate people. The person on the other end had probably never heard of a Virtual PC, and would probably be confused if the concept was explained to them, as well as not understanding WHY one would ever want to do a thing like that.

The other persons probably saw the conversation like this;
Support: Ok, can I ask how many computers you have this copy of Windows installed on?
You: I only have it installed on one computer. The only reason it is doing this is because I had it installed on a Virtual PC on another computer awhile ago, but now I want to put this back on the computer it came on
(The Support Person here hears that you (A) had it installed on another computer at one point and (B) hears a term they are completely unfamiliar with, adding to the confusion)
Support: Uhh...How many total computers have you installed Windows on?
You: Just one.
Support: Thank you...

Well, look on the bright side...

at least Microsoft doesn't play favorites!

I'ma coming, F/OSS folks!

Like many people who will see these alerts, I don't believe I did anything wrong. I'm sure that's going to be a common refrain in this new era of untrusting software and companies.

I will be royally pissed if I received one of these messages after spending hundreds of dollars on a software product. And if they disable the software beause they think it's pirated, they will lose me as a customer - forever.

I can just see it now, businesses trying to get work done while dealing with those messages.

Re:I'ma coming, F/OSS folks!

It's an annoyance, but compared to other Windows annoyances (spyware, viruses, patching, etc.) it looks to me to be a very, very small one.

It's not just an annoyance.
It's yet another annoyance, in a long line of annoyances.

Could it be the "straw that broke the camel's back"?

Maybe. Or maybe the next annoyance will be.

Or the one after that.