Stories
Slash Boxes
Comments

News for nerds, stuff that matters

Policy Wonk Castigates Net Neutrality

Posted by Zonk on Fri Jun 09, 2006 04:02 PM
from the must-be-happy-today dept.
An anonymous reader writes "Tom Giovanetti, president of the Dallas, Texas based public policy think tank Institute for Policy Innovation envisions a chaotic world as a result of Net Neutrality. He says a flood of undiscriminated traffic to and from Youtube, Coldplay, and Victoria's Secret will bring down the Internet, leading to failures of IPTV, VOIP, and emergency services which depend on VOIP. Is he right or wrong?." From the article: "... government should be about fostering a dynamic and risk-taking economy, not preserving the certainty of anyone's business models. Net neutrality regulations would severely restrict broadband providers' right to enter into contracts and to try new business models while protecting the business models of Google and Ebay." Compare this with George Ou's commentary on this subject from yesterday.

Related Stories

[+] U.S. House Rejects Net Neutrality 598 comments
tygerstripes writes "A recent vote in the U.S. House of Representatives has led to a rejection of the principle of Net Neutrality from the Communications Opportunity, Promotion and Enhancement Act (Cope Act), in spite of massive lobbying from prominent businesses. According to the BBC, the bill '...aims to make it easier for telecoms firms to offer video services around America by replacing 30,000 local franchise boards with a national system overseen by the Federal Communications Commission (FCC)'. However, according to House Democratic leader Nancy Pelosi, 'telecommunications and cable companies will be able to create toll lanes on the information superhighway... This strikes at the heart of the free and equal nature of the internet.'"
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.
Policy Wonk Castigates Net Neutrality | Log In/Create an Account | Top | 322 comments (Spill at 50!) | Index Only | Search Discussion
Display Options Threshold:
The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.
(1) | 2
  • Justifiable Reasoning (Score:5, Interesting)

    by duerra (684053) * on Friday June 09 2006, @04:03PM (#15505536)
    (http://lyrictalk.net/)
    I think Tom Giovanetti's reasoning is very justifiable. Often times as humans we are quick to criticize, and very hypocrytical. We should ask ourselves how often we complain about the government regulating this or that and trying to solve problems that don't exist, while at the same time cheer on legislation that would have demanded things such as net neutrality. Now, I'm not saying that there aren't valid reasons for either or both, but it's a rhetorical question that I think we should all be asking ourselves.

    Anyway, this is one of the reasons why I'd love to see the government set up a site for everybody to go to, where they can see each of their legislator's votes on issues, as well as a quick comment on the reasoning for voting that way (or longer per the legislator's desire), and put this out there in a very accessible location, and make this a manditory part of the legislative process. The site could be organized in a way such that citizens could easily see the reasoning behind other legislator's votes as well, so that counterpoints are clear to citizens.

    This would all help us be better informed and make good decisions, as well as help the government keep itself in check ("I voted no on this legislation because it contains 'xxxxx' add-on legislation that I don't agree with"). Debates would always be there and available to citizens in a way that they can do it at their convenience, and don't have to try and dig up all this information themselves. Essentially, this idea would function a similar purpose as that of a judicial decision opinion (clarifying the decision). We don't need big media to give us all our info anymore. We can get it right from the source. The internet is a very powerful thing. LEVERAGE IT!

    Anyway, I know that rant was slightly off topic, but I felt it to be relevant since originally my opinion was leaning towards enacting net neutrality legislation, but I still had my doubts, and this reasoning has made me think that maybe it's just better to wait and see what happens before we get too hasty to legislate, though I still do think that publically funded infrastructure should still be publically owned and unhindered.
    • Re:Justifiable Reasoning (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Russ Nelson (33911) on Friday June 09 2006, @04:10PM (#15505602)
      (http://russnelson.com/)
      maybe it's just better to wait and see what happens

      No. See my letter to my congresscritter [russnelson.com].
      [ Parent ]
      • Re:Justifiable Reasoning by duerra (Score:1) Friday June 09 2006, @04:14PM
      • Re:Justifiable Reasoning (Score:5, Insightful)

        by CDarklock (869868) on Friday June 09 2006, @05:21PM (#15506121)
        (http://www.darklock.com/blog/ | Last Journal: Tuesday August 28, @02:44PM)
        Hi Russ... I read you regularly, even though we don't always agree.

        On this, we do. Right now, the commercial internet works because I pay someone to connect me to the internet and give me a certain amount of bandwidth. I do this for my connection at home, because I want bandwidth to get what I ask to see. I do this for my server at a data center, because I want bandwidth to get to people that ask to see me.

        When I use bandwidth to my own server, like when I get my email, I pay twice for that bandwidth. I pay for sending the email from my server, and I pay for receiving the email at my desktop. And that's fine. It makes perfect sense to me.

        What isn't fine is that now someone in the middle is saying that I should have to pay them extra so I can use the bandwidth I'm already paying to have. They seem to be of the opinion that I need to pay THREE people for the bandwidth I use. I understand that there are two ends to the connection, so I need to pay people on both sides. But this third charge is someone in the middle. How many "third" charges *are* there? How many networks does my data traverse on the way from point A to point B? Can they all charge me? When? If I go from network A to network B and then back to network A, do I have to pay network A twice?

        This is a big-ass can of worms. We need to keep it well and truly sealed.
        [ Parent ]
      • Re:Justifiable Reasoning by kyb (Score:1) Saturday June 10 2006, @06:13PM
      • 2 replies beneath your current threshold.
    • Trajedy of the commons (Score:5, Informative)

      by goombah99 (560566) on Friday June 09 2006, @04:18PM (#15505670)
      We need to ask ourselves if this is a tragedy of the commons or a case where uniform access decreases costs or provides more public-goods. I don't know which it really is.

      The tragedy of the commons is what happens when a resource is provided that lacks a proper mariginal cost for increased use. The classic example is private property versus unrstricted access to public grazing land. By charging a small price for admission per sheep to the land or by making it private, the incentive to overgraze it is removed and the total amount of meat sustainbly raise actually is higher. In this case if it's case where there is simply not enough baqndwith for everyone to do voip, and I don't pay any extra to do VOIP, then it's going to be over grazed and everyone gets a crappy connection. On the otherhand if the connection cost already is sufficient to expand the network to handle all the users that want voip or if we can prevent this from becomeing a power law network with critical links then it may be that the more users the better some sort of p2p works.

      Thus another way of looking is this is that the thing we need to fear is too few corporation controlliing the internet and resulting in bottlenecks on backbones. In the long run to get high bandwidth we will need p2p that does not traverse a central backbone.

      Assuming that the p2p scaling effect will not be sufficient and the tragedy of the commons wil happen then the way out is to have a pricing schedule. We can put that schedule on the users or on the content providers. the latter is what the backbone owners want since it means no net neutrality and control. The former would be better but I can imagine the cheap ass slashdotters used to paying a tiny sum for all-they-can eat internet won't like it.

      [ Parent ]
      • Re:Trajedy of the commons (Score:4, Insightful)

        by Kesch (943326) on Friday June 09 2006, @04:37PM (#15505809)
        Tragedy of the commons is a pretty good example, but it doesn't fit the net.

        The whole commons mentality is "If I don't use it somebody else will."

        However, this doesn't work with bandwith. There is no free bandwith just laying around to be snatched up by anybody. You pay for your bandwith, websites pay for theirs, and if you use more bandwith, it costs more.

        Thus another way of looking is this is that the thing we need to fear is too few corporation controlliing the internet

        This is the entire problem. Most small towns usually only have the local cable company and the local phone company supplying broadband access. There are only a few national telcos with most of the lines under their control. The stage is set for rampant extortion.
        [ Parent ]
        • Re:Trajedy of the commons by goombah99 (Score:2) Friday June 09 2006, @05:47PM
          • Re:Trajedy of the commons (Score:5, Insightful)

            by ShieldW0lf (601553) on Friday June 09 2006, @08:39PM (#15507094)
            This is all bullshit.

            The costs involved in telecommunications are in the laying of infrastructure. The cost to operate it after it is built is insignificant by comparison. Furthermore, the cost to operate it doesn't decrease appreciably with less users. You still need to run the lines regardless. It's not like when half the people turn their connections off they get to turn off half the lines and save electricity.

            And this nightmare scenario, where too many people downloading a hot wardrobe malfunction cause the rest of the internet to stop, that has NEVER HAPPENED. The fact of the matter is that all this chaos exists because it has been demonstrated to be the most reliable means of running telecommunications in the public sector ever created. He talks about how all these essential services are moving online. They're not moving online because it's the cool thing to do and all the firefighters and EMS workers want to be hip. They're doing it because it's MORE reliable than the pre-existing ivory tower administered systems that predate it.

            The reason why it's more reliable is because it is NOT STRATEGIC. It is TACTICAL. Highly structured systems where you say "we need to do it precisely this way and everything will work" rely on perfect information and perfect judgement, which do not exist. Chaotic systems like the internet work better because they say "we're not capable of making all these determinations and decisions on how the system should work, so we're going to lay down a set of tactics that will allow individual components to react co-operatively and intelligently to problems".

            It's like the difference between a good boss, who recognizes the strength your individuality brings to the table and attempts to make it useful, and a bad manager, who tries to micromanage you and just ends up making you (and the entire system) less effective.

            The internet, in it's chaotic form, is a SMART internet. Every node has the capacity to make tactical decisions, and thus react to problems that no other node even recognizes exists. Tiering, rather than attempting to progress this powerful idea, is a fundamental rejection and dismissal of that intelligence and the value it brings to the table.

            I'll cap my little rant by mentioning that this whole thing about the internet being a resource in short supply is a ridiculous joke. Capacity has been growing faster than usage for a long time now, and we're at the point where free wireless mesh networks can be set up for next to nothing. Small cities with limited budgets and technical resources have demonstrated that they have the capacity to do this with no help all from any existing carrier. We could, with minimal investment in infrastucture, set up wireless networks of sufficient speed that they could assume all the burdens off the wired net for all in-city traffic, and with an intelligent caching system, it could assume a lot of the burden for inter-city traffic too. So for negligible investment (compared to laying fibre) we could practically unburden the entire existing internets physical infrastructure and use it for some new purpose without losing any of the communications we currently enjoy.

            In a nutshell, the mans position is either utterly ignorant foolishness or a blatant lie intended to manipulate the people who are exposed to his bullshit, to the detriment of us all. Having seen how very warped the views of people who are isolated from reality with other intellectuals can become, I'm not quite cynical enough to say with any confidence which one it is.
            [ Parent ]
          • Re:Trajedy of the commons by Curunir_wolf (Score:2) Friday June 09 2006, @09:06PM
          • Re:Trajedy of the commons by kiwipeso (Score:1) Saturday June 10 2006, @04:04AM
          • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
        • Re:Trajedy of the commons by ksheff (Score:3) Friday June 09 2006, @06:58PM
      • Re:Trajedy of the commons by joebok (Score:2) Friday June 09 2006, @05:54PM
      • broadband by falconwolf (Score:2) Friday June 09 2006, @10:17PM
    • You're Right But You're Still Wrong (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Alaren (682568) on Friday June 09 2006, @04:25PM (#15505721)

      I think Tom Giovanetti's reasoning is very justifiable. Often times as humans we are quick to criticize, and very hypocrytical. We should ask ourselves how often we complain about the government regulating this or that and trying to solve problems that don't exist, while at the same time cheer on legislation that would have demanded things such as net neutrality.

      Actually, his article is very well-reasoned, for someone who clearly doesn't understand the issue. Prioritizing VOIP or TV over torrents and whatnot is a QOS issue. It is important that we keep in mind the "law of unintended consequences" and not make it a crime to do something that actually improves the cultural and technological status quo (OT: like filesharing...)

      The thing about government regulation is that the "right way to go" often depends on the current balance of power. This guy is absolutely right to note that Amazon and Google are supporting Net Neutrality for ultimately selfish reasons. But if the enemy of my enemy is my friend, then for the moment at least I'm going to agree with their position if not their motives. What he is proposing is that in a free-market system, regulation would be unnecessary because market forces would naturally correct any problems. Quality of Service could be addressed by the invisible hand and all would be well.

      Which is a beautiful analogy, if telecommunications existed in a free market! It doesn't. Depending on where you live, you either have state sponsored or de facto monopolies, you have regulatory influences regarding the usage of your lines, in some cases you are even forbidden by state law to band together as a community and create alternatives to your telecommunications providers.

      Net Neutrality needs to be carefully managed to avoid the scenario he describes, but frankly, I think he's worrying about the wrong extreme. It is far more likely that QOS "fees" will turn into extortion rackets than that a network which must remain impartial will fall apart. It's true, if all you think the information age should bring us is more one-way delivery of quality corporat-state-approved entertainment, if you don't mind concentrating power among the wealthy elite and directing the energies of our age to maintaining the status quo, the Net Neutrality is a very bad thing.

      But frankly I'd rather have spotty TV and unreliable phone service if it that is what it takes to ensure that I have as much chance as the next person to have my voice heard.

      [ Parent ]
      • by timeOday (582209) on Friday June 09 2006, @05:11PM (#15506042)
        I'll give you another reason not to trust the invisible hand to write QoS rulesets: because the rulesets are too opaque. ISP's will be constantly playing with complicated QoS rulesets, naturally *without* notifying customers. When I'm shopping around for an ISP, do you honestly think they'll volunteer the fact that they cripple Vonage to promote their own service? No way. The sheer complexity and unavailability of information from ISPs will make it difficult or impossible for consumers to really know what they're getting, and thus for corrective market forces to work.
        [ Parent ]
      • Telcos want to compete with cablecos and everyone else in the world in delivering "IPTV". They want to leverage their oligopoly advantage in controlling the backbones to compete with what would otherwise be a level playing field.

        Porn always forecasts the trend in comms/entertainment tech markets. Amateur porn and tiny little producers/distributors are the majority of porn consumed. TV of all genres will go the same way, now that the Internet has hit critical mass of high bandwidth consumers. Telcos can't compete with such a diverse array of content competitors on a level playing field, so of course they're working to fragment and unlevel the field.

        Giovanetti of course knows this. His analysis doesn't come from any ignorance but the willful kind. The principles are obvious, the break with the decades-old, unprecedentedly successful "neutral Internet" too blatant to miss. He's shilling for corporations who benefit for his thinktank's "less regulation" ideology. As usual, deregulation promotion masks corporate anarchy in the name of "freedom". Freedom for corporations to exploit us without government protection.
        [ Parent ]
        • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
      • Re:You're Right But You're Still Wrong by dnoyeb (Score:2) Friday June 09 2006, @10:35PM
    • Re:Justifiable Reasoning by slick_rick (Score:3) Friday June 09 2006, @04:25PM
      • Re:Justifiable Reasoning by thule (Score:2) Friday June 09 2006, @05:12PM
        • Re:Justifiable Reasoning by dgatwood (Score:2) Friday June 09 2006, @05:17PM
          • free market by falconwolf (Score:2) Friday June 09 2006, @10:53PM
        • Re:Justifiable Reasoning (Score:4, Insightful)

          by timeOday (582209) on Friday June 09 2006, @05:32PM (#15506196)
          They do no know enough about how free markets work to see what the possible long-term out come could be. Time and time again free markets work and work well.
          All this free market worship forgets one thing: the free market didn't invent the Internet! Sorry, but it's true. Government and academic researchers designed and implemented the Internet (which is strange because all they do is pick their butts and polish their ivory towers... right?) Only afterwards did market forces kick in to expand its reach.

          The Internet totally wiped out the free market's contemporary offerings: GEnie Online, Prodigy, and a bunch of other crap proprietary networks that didn't interoperate, cost a fortune, didn't give people enough freedom to be useful.

          [ Parent ]
        • Re:Justifiable Reasoning (Score:5, Insightful)

          by BasilBrush (643681) on Friday June 09 2006, @05:44PM (#15506290)
          The free market has been enormously enabled by net neutrality of the past decade. For a relatively small investment, individuals and companies have access to the world as a market, with the winners according to merit. Discrimination by different type and participants in network traffic will only result in more power to the people who already have power, and less power to those that don't, regardless of merit. That may be capitalism, with elements of monopoly in places... but it's certainly further away from the free market than where we are now.
          [ Parent ]
    • Re:Justifiable Reasoning (Score:4, Insightful)

      by rolfwind (528248) on Friday June 09 2006, @04:32PM (#15505771)
      I think all the reasoning against net neutrality doesn't recognize the fact that I, joe consumer, paid to surf the internet. The ISPs can say they'll favor certain corporations, but that's not what I paid for. They are trying to sell a resource, already paid for by me, at the other end. That's double dipping and should be illegal.

      Besides, the article is illogical. The very entities like Google CAN pay corps the extortion fee to be in favored status. It's the smaller guys that get fucked. Tom Giovanetti can pretend that this will threaten Google's/Microsoft'sMSN/OtherGenericBigBadGuy business model. And then there is the real world.
      [ Parent ]
    • Re:Justifiable Reasoning by crazzeto (Score:1) Friday June 09 2006, @04:49PM
    • Re:Justifiable Reasoning by Khammurabi (Score:3) Friday June 09 2006, @05:16PM
    • Re:Justifiable Reasoning by Doc Ruby (Score:2) Friday June 09 2006, @05:17PM
    • Re:Justifiable Reasoning by Thanster (Score:1) Friday June 09 2006, @06:58PM
    • UN-Justifiable Reasoning (Score:4, Insightful)

      by kozumik (946298) on Friday June 09 2006, @08:26PM (#15507043)
      There are some justifications for guaranteed bandwidth. For example, one could see a portion of the net being split off for VOIP use only and it would make sense to protect that from spikes in pron DLing or whatever. So yes, I can see some arguments for protected bandwidth. But this whole debate is smoke screen for a monopoly grab and deregulation. Net Neutrality should be the norm and exceptions carved out of that on a case by case basis where justified. NOT the other way around.

      The loss of Net Neutrality goes way beyond that and strips every protection against monopoly on the internet. FACT: with the loss of Net Neutrality, anyone who doesn't have a contract with a Telco assuring them a chunk of bandwidth (i.e. everyone except the largest companies) no longer has any right to be on the internet and can be completly shut down. Blocking traffic is completly at the discretion of Telcos now.

      What the loss of Net Neutrality does is to completely deregulate the internet and allow Telcos to shut down any site they choose. That's no exaggeration. Now, there are no consumer protections and no guidelines on what's fair and what's not in regards to filtering.

      Anyone who thinks the free market is going to ensure fair competition is a real dunce. History shows the natural outcome of a completely unfettered market is an anti-competitive monopoly. That's why we had to regulate to prevent monopolies for pete's sake!

      To make matters worse, other deregulation a while ago means Telco monopolies are no longer required to offer their lines service to small ISP. In other words they don't even have to share their government sanctioned monopoly on the last mile anymore. So, there goes the competitive market as small ISP are gradually squeezed out over the coming years.

      This is going to lead to aggressive and highly anti-competitive Telcos running turf wars on an unfettered and unethical internet. Fair competition will vanish quickly. If for example a rival company (insert mega-corp of choice) wants to pay more to shut down your bandwidth than you can pay to buy your bandwidth, that's perfectly legal now. If Oracle for example had wanted to pay to buy People Soft's internet bandwidth to depress their stock price and ease the takeover, perfectly legal now. If MS wans to pay confidentially to hobble Linux servers or companies using them, again, perfectly legal now.

      The loss of Net Neutrality means there is now no regulation and turns the internet and Telcos into monopolies capable of extorting protection money, and calling that protection: perfectly legal fees.

      I really can't believe the lack of awareness and apathy on this issue from supposedly tech savvy people.
      [ Parent ]
    • Re:Justifiable Reasoning by anarkhos (Score:2) Saturday June 10 2006, @02:27PM
    • 5 replies beneath your current threshold.
  • What else is new? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Guysmiley777 (880063) on Friday June 09 2006, @04:04PM (#15505546)
    Corporate shill says private companies should be allowed to control the internet. Film at 11.
  • Multiple observations: (Score:5, Insightful)

    by plasmacutter (901737) on Friday June 09 2006, @04:05PM (#15505549)
    (Last Journal: Tuesday November 06, @02:39PM)
    First off.. they have been saying one thing or another would "overload the internet" for ages and it has yet to happen.

    second. i want to know what his stance on music downloading is given this quote:

    "government should be about fostering a dynamic and risk-taking economy, not preserving the certainty of anyone's business models."

    if he's against "online piracy" than he is a hyppocrite.
  • hrmm... (Score:5, Insightful)

    Maybe they should think about taking "Life and Death" stuff off the internet, a back-hoe could take out a large part of the net for a day or two. If emergency reponse people are relying on vonage or skype for critical communications, that is a serrious problem.
  • MY HEAD ACHES NOW (Score:5, Insightful)

    Over a day and a half of fury about how the internet is being sold by the u.s. house to the big bucks, my head now aches.

    I f.ckin do not believe how you, u.s. people can ALLOW for such debate to even take place, such s.hit rule the agenda, and do not blow your congressmen's senator's ears off about the matter.

    The biggest revolution, since the french revolution, the internet, is being handed over to the minority elite.

    This is our 'thing'. This is the 'thing' of our times. This is one of the most important thing in our times.

    My head really aches, and im weary.
  • If... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Anne Thwacks (531696) on Friday June 09 2006, @04:06PM (#15505563)
    If an emergency service depends on VoIP, someone needs to be sacked NOW! Dont wait for the service to fail ... failure is certain.
    • Re:If... by Dj-Zer0 (Score:1) Friday June 09 2006, @04:17PM
      • Re:If... by Anne Thwacks (Score:2) Saturday June 10 2006, @06:19AM
    • Re:If... by LostCluster (Score:2) Friday June 09 2006, @04:35PM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • specious argument (Score:5, Informative)

    The internet today is mostly neutral, and people accesing Victoria's Secret haven't brought it down.

    The telephone system is neutral, but some telephone numbers are clearly more popular than others. Yet this hasn't brought down the phone system.

    The reality is that the engineering of the network (including capacity planning and expansion) is done precisely on the basis of traffic flows. There is also congestion control. The internet is not like the public highway system, where capacity problems take years and hundreds of millions of dollars to solve.

    Even if a zillion people did all try to get to the Victoria's Secret web site all at once, that would probably not affect my ability to access my email or read CNN's web site.
     
    • corporate single points of failure (Score:4, Insightful)

      by SuperBanana (662181) on Friday June 09 2006, @04:38PM (#15505814)
      Even if a zillion people did all try to get to the Victoria's Secret web site all at once, that would probably not affect my ability to access my email or read CNN's web site.

      Unfortunately, due to consolidation, mergers, rabid anti-spam measures, and hard-line corporate push towards 'consumerism' on virtually any kind of internet connection- that's just not true anymore.

      A few years ago, it used to be that Apple would bring Akamai to its knees every time they had a big announcement, and anyone that used Akamai (which was a large number of popular sites) would suffer; a million mac users would be trying to load up the webcast or hitting "refresh" a thousand times on store.apple.com or www.apple.com.

      Google is another example. Google is so ingrained in people's brains that I watch fellow -professional- sysadmins ping "www.google.com" as a test of whether a machine has DNS and outgoing connectivity. People hardly bookmark things anymore; they just "google it" and sift through the first 6 hits or so to find what they were looking for.

      Here's my point: pick any one of the big giants in the internet world today. Now picture they're gone- wiped off the map by a disgruntled employee, a natural disaster, or more likely these days- a corporate scandal (imagine what would happen if Google was the next Enron. If you think that's impossible, look at the Google CFO's background.) Now think about how much that would hurt the web. We've made progress in some areas of the Internet (DNS- you have lots of choices for registrars, though GoDaddy has become the largest by far, and now represents a similar risk), but lost massively in others.

      I have ONE choice in internet service provides in my town. I live 20 miles from Boston, but because of "Gentlemen's agreements" that are pervasive in the telco industry, I can't get DSL because Comcast is in our town. 10 years ago I could pick from a dozen dialup ISPs, national, regional, and local- same for ISDN. Now I have ONE choice, and I live in one of the more wealthy and technologically advanced states in the union, and I'm not permitted by my ToS to run a webserver, email server, "discussion board", or "Internet relay chat server". I believe I'm not even allowed to run a VPN server. My ToS clearly states that I am a "consumer" of information services. That's progress?

      [ Parent ]
    • Re:specious argument by timmyf2371 (Score:2) Friday June 09 2006, @05:13PM
    • Neutral? No it's not by thule (Score:2) Friday June 09 2006, @05:19PM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • TCP backs off; UDP does not (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Russ Nelson (33911) on Friday June 09 2006, @04:08PM (#15505583)
    (http://russnelson.com/)
    VOIP uses UDP. When you get network congestion, you simply get packets dropped and your -oice get- littl- ch-ppy. TCP stacks will send fewer packets per second when packets get dropped.

    Ignoramuses keep bringing this issue up as if it's going to KILL THE INTERNET, so we MUST CHANGE INTERNET POLICY. They tried this back in the early 90's when IBM was running the T-1 Internet backbone through some subsidiary. What didn't work back then still won't work today. For an arbitrary packet on the Internet, you cannot tell in which direction the value is flowing; thus you cannot figure out who to charge.
  • Dumb (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Cixel Sid (977171) on Friday June 09 2006, @04:09PM (#15505585)
    This ignores the fact that people and companies adapt. I'm sure the 911 service won't just hope things don't fail; for example, I cluster the servers that handle 911 dialing on our campus because I don't "hope they won't fail." It's like in the 70s when people thought we'd be out of gas by 1996. They forgot to consider that people make adjustments as the world around them changes. We have more gas now than ever. Same with bandwidth.
  • Zero State intervention (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Toby The Economist (811138) on Friday June 09 2006, @04:11PM (#15505606)
    The State should not get involved.

    The unintended consequences of any act upon a complex system are far greater than the intended consequence - if the intended consequence even occurs at all.

    Morevoer, State intervention upon one issue opens the doors to State intervention on many issues.

    Do we really think, overall, that the sum of State intervention will be positive or negative?

    Given past performance, suspectibility to lobbying, short-sighted political behaviour, "it's for the children", simple incompetence and failure to understand the issues, I'd be far happier with zero State intevention.
  • I agree... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by wfberg (24378) on Friday June 09 2006, @04:13PM (#15505630)
    Suchs laws would severely impact the contracts broadband companies can enter into.

    That's the entire point.

    They've been handed full or near monopolies on data communications, and with monopoly comes restriction.

    Because they already have, already are, and will continue to screw over the consumer.

    Heck, even companies that do not have monopolies have huge restrictions on screwing over their customers when it comes to conflicts of interest. For example; some investment banker isn't allowed to tell you how great company X is, if a different unit of his bank happens to be seriving company X's IPO. That's really just plain common sense.

    Net non-neutrality is very simple, basic, econ 101 vertical monopoly. Nothing at all suspect about wanting to curb it. Yes, it happens to benefit other companies. In fact, making sur the vertical playing ground is even benefits the entire economy, and not just broadband companies rights to enter into contracts.
  • WRONG (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Kagato (116051) on Friday June 09 2006, @04:14PM (#15505632)
    (http://www.hometheaterescapes.com/)
    Basically, the premise of the tiered system is that companies like your tube, google, etc don't pay for all the bandwidth they consume. NPR's Market Place had a horrible story on last night claiming that with out extra cash from these large web sites, they can't expand bandwidth.

    It's the dumbest argument ever. 1) Companies that large connect directly to top tier providers. These companies are paying hundreds of thousandsands of dollars to the top 10 internet back bone providers for fat pipes into the internet. 2) We have tons of dark fiber still running across the US. Companies liek Qwest invested millions upon millions of dollars in infrastructure for customers who still don't exist.

    We don't have a bandwidth problem. We have a problem with a congress that doesn't understand infrastructure.

    BTW: Here's the list of house member who voted NO the ammendment:
    http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2006/roll239.xml [house.gov]
  • Policy wonk? (Score:5, Informative)

    This "think tank" was founded by Republican Dick Armey in 1987 [sourcewatch.org].
    As usual, you just need to follow the money in these matters and this is very revealing. The last year that records were kept regarding Dick Armey's contributions you'll see that his top contributor was Allegiance Telecom. Other notables in the "Dick Armey" include National Cable & Telecommunications Assn, Verizon, BellSouth and SBC. It's all here at open secrets. [opensecrets.org]

    Politicians remain lapdogs to their masters even after leaving the Hill
    • Re:Policy wonk? (Score:4, Interesting)

      by MobyDisk (75490) on Friday June 09 2006, @04:49PM (#15505893)
      (http://www.mobydisk.com/)
      Let's also remember that Richard Armey was given the Poetic Justice Award [attrition.org] because his web site was blocked by the filtering software that he voted to make mandatory. Time to change your name, Dick!
      An anonymous submitter noticed that the Web site of Richard "Dick" Armey, Majority Leader of the U.S. House of Representatives and a staunch defender of censorware and strict Internet regulation, is himself a victim of censorware. Netnanny, Surfwatch, Cybersitter, N2H2, and Wisechoice are among the "software solutions" which Armey advocates. All of them filter his site because it contains the word "dick."
      [ Parent ]
    • Oblig. Family Guy by tddoog (Score:1) Friday June 09 2006, @05:07PM
  • If i was handed 1-2 million dollars by telcos by unity100 (Score:2) Friday June 09 2006, @04:16PM
  • So essentially, what he says, is... by Opportunist (Score:2) Friday June 09 2006, @04:16PM
  • Overload...? by oahazmatt (Score:2) Friday June 09 2006, @04:18PM
  • VOIP? by colinrichardday (Score:2) Friday June 09 2006, @04:19PM
  • Policy Wonka Castigates Net Neutrality by fohat (Score:1) Friday June 09 2006, @04:19PM
  • Indiscriminated traffic ?!?!? by prgrmr (Score:2) Friday June 09 2006, @04:21PM
  • Curious by suv4x4 (Score:2) Friday June 09 2006, @04:21PM
  • Yes, if we were in a situation where individual customers could vote with their feet on net neutrality this anslysis would have a point. There would be less government regulation and the market could sort out whether people value net neutrality.

    However, there is little to no effective competition in the internet access market. Sure there is a bit of competition between the cable and phone companies and electric companies always claim to be just about to deploy broadband over powerlines but these providers control the lines and can make life very difficult for any other DSL providers. Besides even if your broadband provider believes in net neutrality it isn't clear you don't still suffer from privleges granted by an upstream carrier. In short their is no easy way for competition to exercisce its judgement that net neutrality is worth paying for (and with enough money surely people could expand their pipes).

    I mean just imagine if the local phone company announced it was going to charge you double if you called any buisness that didn't join its prefered buisness program (i.e. paid it money). This would be extortion and phone regulations rightly prohibit it because otherwise phone companies could use their monopoly position to exact almost arbitrarily high profits.
  • Disincentive to increase bandwidth (Score:5, Insightful)

    by pyza (877061) on Friday June 09 2006, @04:23PM (#15505710)
    Let me see if I'm understanding this.

    If there is enough bandwidth then everyone's traffic will get through regardless of Net Neutrality. If there is congestion though, without Net Neutrality only traffic from sites that paid the extortion fee will get through.

    Does this not lead to a situation where it is ideal for an ISP to maintain a certain level of congestion at all times in order to ensure that there exists a reason to pay the extortion fee?

    One the other hand with Net Neutrality in place it's in the ISP's best interest to maintain an adequate level of bandwidth to make sure everyone's traffic gets through.
  • Hell no he's not right (Score:5, Insightful)

    by TheCabal (215908) on Friday June 09 2006, @04:23PM (#15505711)
    (Last Journal: Thursday July 21 2005, @06:07PM)
    Why the hell would any mission critical or emergency service be using the Internet as a medium for transport? These services should be on their own redundant private networks.

    People have been predicting the death of the Internet for years. First 56k modems were going to do it, then the glut of DSL and cable subscribers. Now it's going to be all the fibre to premises customers and Google. After that it will probably be WiMAX because now we're going to have kilometers of wireless coverage that anyone can jump on. These people seem to forget that bandwidth is a two-way street. You might have 5Mbps down, and all your neighbors, but the hosted server most likely has a bandwidth lock at 1Gbps or so... that's your limiting factor, not how much bandwidth you can pull down.
  • I paid for the road....now shove off by cyngus (Score:1) Friday June 09 2006, @04:26PM
  • "depend on VOIP"? by ChuckieMac (Score:1) Friday June 09 2006, @04:29PM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • Which one should die? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by suv4x4 (956391) on Friday June 09 2006, @04:29PM (#15505750)
    Check this segment FTFA:

    Suddenly, the TV image goes pixilated, and then dark. The phone call drops. You hear yelling from your teenagers' rooms. But that's not all.

    Across town, police on the beat suddenly can't reach headquarters on their radios. In an ambulance, the EMTs are trying to call in vital signs for a patient they are transporting to the hospital, but they can't get through.

    Is it an alien invasion? A convergence of planets or some other astral phenomenon? No, it's a convergence of a different sort. Turns out that tonight is also the night of the Victoria's Secret Fashion Show, as well as the night Coldplay releases its latest song online. And YouTube has just released embarrassing video of a major Hollywood star having a ``wardrobe malfunction.''


    My question is: how does prioritizing help. If a neutral net can't handle all of this at once, how could one claim a tiered Internet CAN.

    And if it's not at all about being able to handle all at once (but about blackmailing service providers), but prioritizing one over the other, which of these should fail?

    The quick answer is that VOIP and police stations should have high priority and the rest can go to hell. But is this (to quote the article again) "the converged, always-on, interconnected world we've all been dreaming of".

    Would you let some corporate or government entity to anonymously decide which stuff is important and which is less important?
    Is the stuff from those who pay more, more important?

    Is Coca Cola's site more important than Pepsi's site? Is Yahoo more important than Google?

    Plenty of questions, for which the answers will change with every shift of power, as people "on top" work on doing what's "best for us", since we're apparently told we don't know it ourselves.
  • RIAA/MPAA parallel by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Friday June 09 2006, @04:30PM
  • Tollways don't stop speeders by Super Dave Osbourne (Score:1) Friday June 09 2006, @04:30PM
  • Why is this news? by MikeRT (Score:2) Friday June 09 2006, @04:30PM
  • Smart Filtering vs. Paid Filtering (Score:4, Interesting)

    Trusting the big telcos and cable companies to act in the best interests of their customers is like hiring a python as a babysitter. They're going to act in the best interest of the bottom line. If the market is savvy enough to make acting in the interest of customers a competitive factor, then they'll do it. If it's not, then they'll screw their customers to make more money and their customers will just bitch and moan, but won't leave.

    A very real fear is that a telco says "this pipe is reserved for general internet traffic" and never increases the size of that pipe. As time goes on, they continue to expand capacity, but all new capacity is reserved for the pay-for-play lanes. The original pipe stays its original size for years, getting more and more congested until any company that wants to reach this telco's customers with any kind of speed or surety needs to pay the telco for access to the pay-for-play lanes. That's an unregulated net where filtering and prioritizing has gone awry.

    On an overregulated network, where absolute neutrality is enforced, you have the doomsday scenario where World Cup streaming takes down the Internet.

    A middleground I think works is that you enforce a ratio of neutral pipe width to free prioritized pipe width (for ensuring that certain services can maintain a certain minimum level of quality) to pay-for-play prioritized pipe width (where a QOS is guaranteed to anyone willing to pay the premium). As capacity grows, all of those pipes grow at a proportional rate. So if BellSouth/AT&T lays new fiber that triples bandwidth across their backbone, the neutral pipe width triples, the free prioritized pipe width triples, and the pay-for-play pipe width triples.

    It's figuring out what's a fair ratio and a workable way of monitoring it that's the trick.

  • This is just ridiculous by SixDimensionalArray (Score:2) Friday June 09 2006, @04:33PM