NJ Bill Would Prohibit Anonymous Posts on Forums

An anonymous reader writes "The New Jersey legislature is considering a bill that would require operators of public forums to collect users' legal names and addresses, and effectively disallow anonymous speech on online forums. This raises some serious issues, such as to what extent local and state governments can go in enacting and enforcing Internet legislation."

Frist post

First post! (Soon to be illegal)

Re:Frist post

Void where prohibited by law.

Re:Frist post

Sounds like a direct attack on Wikipedia.

I've said it before...

... and I'll say it again

Fucking Jersey.

Re:I've said it before...

Fucking Jersey.

Which is like New Jersey, only a little farther west and markedly more liberal.

Re:Frist post

new jersey bill is a direct violation of section 230 ( keeps webhosts and bloggers immune from this )

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode47/u sc_sec_47_00000230----000-.html [cornell.edu]

mainly

No cause of action may be brought and no liability may be imposed under any State or local law that is inconsistent with this section.

Re:Frist post

Mod parent up. It's also a violation, IMHO, of the First, Fourth (right to privacy) and 14th Ammendmants to the Constitution, and the Commerce Clause (Article I, Section 8, Clause 3). Furthermore, how would New Jersey inforce this? Would it apply only to sites hosted in Jersey? Companies and/or individuals based in New Jersey? If this passes (which it won't) then there will be a huge public outcry. Maybe their intention is to help define the legal jurisdiction of the Internet, setting up more control for the Feds. That's not good.

With apologies to Douglas Adams

> This raises some serious issues, such as to what extent local and state governments can go in enacting and enforcing Internet legislation.

Assemblyman Peter J. Biondi: Come off it, Mr. Coward! You can't stand in front of the tanks in Tienanmen Square indefinitely! This law for the information superhighway has got to be built, and it's going to be built!

Anonymous Coward: Why's it got to be built?

Biondi: What do you mean "why"? It's a law! You've got to pass laws! You were quite entitled to make any suggestions or protests at the appropriate time, you know.

Anonymous Coward: Appropriate time?! The first I knew about it was when you pre-filed Assembly Bill No. 1327, the cops showed up and they said they were ready to come and take me away!

Biondi: Have you any idea how much damage the government would suffer if we just let the law roll straight over you?

Anonymous Coward: No, how much?

Biondi: None at all.

Vogon: Apathetic bloody citizenry. I've no sympathy at all.

Predictable results

"In other news, roads became congested today as a wave of trucks was seen hauling piles of servers across the New Jersey state line..."

Re:Predictable results

You've never driven in Jersey on a normal day, have you?

Re:Predictable results

Meh. At least the state will collect a buttload of revenue from all the tolls.

Re:Drive people out of the state...

No! We want all the people in New Jersey to stay in New Jersey. We put all of the remedial level drivers there so that they aren't on our roads.

Think of the children!

Re:Predictable results

That's the funny thing about going between Pennsylvania and Jersey. It's free to get into Jersey, but you've gotta pay to get out.

Re:Predictable results

Will, or will not: http://www.zug.com/pranks/turnpike/ [zug.com]

Brrrrrrr

An operator of an interactive computer service or an Internet service provider shall establish and maintain reasonable procedures to enable any person to request and obtain disclosure of the legal name and address of an information content provider who posts false or defamatory information about the person on a public forum website.

Comes a vacuum, as posters retreat who aren't criminals but have reasonable fears of retribution, and a clear need for anonymity...

<grrr />

Re:Brrrrrrr

I RTF Bill and it'll get slapped down by the courts.

The bill does not define "reasonable" and it does not require a court to find that information posted is "false or defamatory".

And "false" information is not necessarily defamatory. Maybe if the bill said "False and defamatory" it'd stand a chance, because truth is an affirmative defense against charges of libel/slander.

I can scream defamation/libel at the top of my lungs and it doesn't matter for shit until a Judge says "yea, that was libel."

This Bill is poorly written from a legal standpoint, not just in it's comprehension of the internet.

Re:Brrrrrrr

Back in the 90s, California passed a law requiring all gun owners to register their guns. Eventually, the supreme court decided that convicted felons were not required to register since to do so would violate their 5th amendments rights (they're not legally allowed to have guns; registering one would be an admission of guilt).

Re:Brrrrrrr

Essentialy it's to stop them from being tried for non-registration in addition to possession of an illegal firearm.

Re:Brrrrrrr

I can scream defamation/libel at the top of my lungs

Actually, you can't scream libel no matter how hard you try, you can only scream slander. You have to write libel. Of course, you can scream "libel", but that not quite the same thing.

Re:Brrrrrrr

"And "false" information is not necessarily defamatory. Maybe if the bill said "False and defamatory" it'd stand a chance, because truth is an affirmative defense against charges of libel/slander."

It can be false and defamatory without causing harm. Currently, the burden is on the person seeking the information to demonstrate that they suffered damages as a result of the information. This bill aims to circumvent that, so that no judge or panel of judges would have to be consulted.

You can bet that the bill was intentionally worded poorly and vaguely -- it allows for:

(1) Enforcement to be wide open to interpretation, so that it can be used by those in power or running for office effectively;
(2) The court to establish the boundaries of the law after it has been passed, if it passes in current form (which, as you say, is highly unlikely).

It's a common tactic in NJ -- write a bill that overreaches in scope, hope it gets through, and then allow the courts to restrict the law. You know, see what you can get away with. Also, by overreaching they establish a 'middle ground' which is what they wanted in the first place, and get credit for compromising to reach that middle ground.

Biondi's a bit of a [insert slanderous term here], anyway -- . [state.nj.us]

Of note, he sponsored a bill to extend implied consent to blood testing for illegal substances -- and allow reasonable force to get that test if the suspect was involved in an accident causing serious bodily harm.

Re:Brrrrrrr

Comes a vacuum, as posters retreat who aren't criminals but have reasonable fears of retribution, and a clear need for anonymity...

I don't know... People might actually have to start actively fighting for their rights instead of talking about fighting for their rights.

I think it's already a sad state of affairs when people think they have to fight for anonymity as a right, as if it's the only way they think they can speak freely.

Re:Uh huh

And this will be enforced... how?

1. By all companies that rent server space moving out of New Jersey.
2. By all websites that allow users to post putting "Persons located in New Jersey are not permitted to comment, because your state's legislators are fools. By hitting submit, I affirm I am not currently located in the State of New Jersey" beside every submit button.

A law isn't a law...

...unless it can be enforced.

My fear about unenforceable laws such as this one is the true power behind the law. Sure, it will be hard to enforce, but the powers the State will request to try to enforce it will play directly into the hands of those willing to finance the system.

Anonymous posting is harmless, yet un criminalizing it I can easily see how it can play into the hands of the RIAA and the MPAA -- giving them (and others) greater power in their cartels.

Re:A law isn't a law...

An a law isn't a law, if it has already been found to be unconstitutional. There is a body of SC precedent that holds that (1) anonymity is a protected free speech right, and (2) the first amendment applies to the states as well as the federal government. In this case, 1+2 = 3: Any such state law is prima facie unconsitutional.

Re:A law isn't a law...

This is the problem with any structure of checks and balances -- there is no penalty for violating the oath to uphold a given constitution.

How about an amendment to all the Constitutions with a 3 strikes and you're out law? If a law-maker votes for 3 bills that are later found to be unconstitutional, they're booted.

It amazes me how much junk makes it past the various Supreme Courts, though. Sure, this law might get tossed, but how many more make it to the books?

Re:A law isn't a law...

. The legislature is... just us. They're representative of the people they sprang from. If they're sneaky and self-serving, well, that's what we are. Why do you expect angels?

Americans have always hated and mistrusted their representatives. They knew they were crooks, because they knew damned well that they'd do the same if they were in power. I should coin a cool Latin phrase for this concept.

We're not an honest people. Politicians learn to call their constituents honest and good, knowing damned well how sneaky and underhanded the Peeple really are. Peeple don't want honest representatives. The "politians" are scapegoats for all that we dislike about our culture, about ourselves.

The peeple don't want to be represented by angels. They want bastards who will steal as much as possible for their district. Hence the problem. If they wanted angels, they'd elect ministers and professors. They don't; they elect lawyers and businessmen, and expect some payback for their votes.

Biggest practical problem for getting rid of the truly odious moneygrabbers is the way we finance campaigns. Corporations are legally individuals. The SCOTUS has ruled that money is speech, so corps can spend as much as they like under the First Amendment right of free speech. We refuse to publically finance elections. We don't want to eliminate lobbyists. Logically, we have the system now where corporation A puts money in slot B to produce result C, and that's the way we want it.

Don't like it? Then ban all - ALL - contributions to political campaigns. Finance them with public funds. Provide the candidates with FREE air time, as we did before 1987. Making politians pay for airtime has made the rich the only winners in this idiocy that sprang up in the last two decades. There is no other solution. Else elections will simply be bought, and the lawmakers will have to take in money to pay for their reelection campaigns, so laws will be bought. Remove the money. And, oh yes, ban lawmakers from ever working for the people who lobby them after they leave office. That's simply bribery post-office.

Re:A law isn't a law...

Unfortunately, it can be enforced. From the proposed bill:

The operator of any interactive computer service or an Internet service provider shall establish, maintain and enforce a policy to require any information content provider who posts written messages on a public forum website either to be identified by a legal name and address, or to register a legal name and address with the operator of the interactive computer service or the Internet service provider through which the information content provider gains access to the interactive computer service or Internet, as appropriate.

Basically, if you orerate a forum in New Jersey, your site must have data for your users, whether they are from New Jersey, New York or Papua New Guinea. If you don't have such data, you are in trouble, not your users. If the data is proven to be incorrect, you are also in trouble. Jurisdiction of the users doesn't matter, neigther does it matter whether the users have any legal right to be anonymous.

Also a way to shut people up

So you have to get proof of ID? Nice. Now, how do you do that? By sending a copy of your passport to a forum admin? Great, thanks for opening a new and interesting opportunity for Nigeria scammers. Don't have to send lengthy mails around, all you need now is his bank account, you already got the harder to get part.

Will I provide my real name if no such proof of ID is required? Hardly. And who would take it upon himself to prove that I am really myself? Hell, you can register DNS entries with fake IDs, do you really think your neighborhood forum admin will go to greater lengths than companies making some bucks with holding databases of their users?

But the bill goes further than that. A forum admin is liable for slander on his board. Now, ain't this great? Sure, you can't shut people up, first amendment and all that. But you can make sure nobody dares to offer services that would allow you to execute said right. No board, no discussion, no dissent.

Less direct than China, but by no means less efficient. You can't shut them up per se, but cover them in enough red tape that they can't go to the lengths required to stay out of harm's way and shut up "voluntarily". Either you can sink enough money into the identification process of your users to make SURE they are who they claim to be, or you can just as well shut down your board because you can't afford the lawsuits that just might spring up when someone dares to say a word someone important doesn't enjoy hearing.

Yes, yes, I can understand that it's not cool to hear slander and libel on boards. But the tools to get the person under your thumb are already here. IP logs exist, trace them to their source and you got who you need. Case closed.

So what for do you need the poster ID?

*sigh*

Let's hope our clever and very smart politicians never find out something like the usenet even exists.

Re:Also a way to shut people up

This is how it would play out (assuming NJ actually passes this piece of trash):

Day 0 - Legislature passes bill, governor indicates it will be signed. state laws dictate at some future date law will come into affect. (For purposes of argument, let's assume NJ has a 90 day rule, that's pretty typical).

Day 1 - ACLU, EFF, and about 3 dozen other organizations start finding people willing to be defendents in a "Test Case", as well as lining up counsel (ie lawyers) and other needed assets.

Day 5 (at the latest, it takes time to write legal briefs) - ACLU, EFF, et al file lawsuit under the title of the lead test defendant, with Federal Court allegding that the law infringes on rights of test defendant in some way.

Day 6 - Federal judge reviews pleading and determines that there is, in fact, a decent chance that the law might be unconstitutional, files a temporary restraining order prohibiting New Jersey from enforcing the law.

Day 374 - Case actually comes to trial.

In the meantime, no one can be arrested, charged, prosecuted, threatened with prosecution, or in any other way hit over the head with this law, it is forbidden to be enforced until judgement is rendered.

(Worst Case scenario) Day 380 - Judge determines ACLU is wrong, law is allowed to go into effect. At this point, prosecutions could begin, assuming the restraining order is not continued to allow appeal (which would almost certainly happen)

(Best Case scenario) Day 380 - Judge determines New Jersey was smoking crack and the law is patently wrong, rules for test defendents. Temporary injunction is made permanent (assuming NJ doesn't appeal).

So, in short, until the Courts and the lawyers are done, this will have no effect at all.

I can picture it already.

Instead of anonymous users, you'll have:

Name: Hugh Jass.
Address: 123 Fake Street.
Email: [e-mail]

Brilliant idea!

Re:I can picture it already.

No, no, no. You'll have only ONE user, who makes ALL the posts:

Name: Peter J. Biondi
Address: 1 E. High St., Somerville NJ 08876
email: [e-mail]

I wonder what our Founders would think?

Many of them posted handbills - anonymously - at public places.

Some of them posted scurious tracts arguing for Common Sense and other radical ideas, many using pen names (the same as anonymous postings).

I for one welcome our Thought Police Masters and bow to them in the East five times a day ...

Re:What would the Founders think? You have to ask?

That got my attention because the current configuration of the court has a near majority of people who view the Bill of Rights, and the Constitution in general, as limiting rights, not expanding rights. I know Scalia in particular thinks that the Constitution is not a living document but says what it says and should never be interpreted otherwise.

Indeed there are far too many folks who are either ignorant of, or intentionally ignore the 9th Amendment:

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

However, as a strong believer in the 9th Amendment I would be loath to take up the banner of the Living Document crowd. "Living Documentists" are word twisters and shades-of-gray, "it depends of what you think the word means" semanticists. They're intellectually bankrupt in that they seem to think the constitution is a rubbery, flexible thing that can be molded into whatever their "modern vision of society" requires. The classic example is the attempt to recast the 2nd Amendment as only assurance that states are allowed to have a [militia/National Guard], rather than a guarantee that the check against tyranny of an armed populace remains.

No, Strict Constructionists (or rather, Originalists) have the right idea, but the current crop of conservative ones we have around display a maddening tendency towards specific, selective blindness. I believe the founding fathers meant exactly what they wrote in the constitution, and that it only requires that you actually read it for it to be effective.

Re:I wonder what our Founders would think?

The founding fathers are sooo pre-911.

Re:Ah, the sweet sweet sound...

I was skiing this week with a friend of mine who manages a half-billion dollar investment fund. His skepticism about the US was withering. It will not be very long before the world economy interprets America, with its spaghetti of ludicrous, paranoiac IT legislation, DMCA bullshit and general hostility towards 'the other', as damage, and routes around it.

That's just the symptom. The real problem is one that all great civilizations face: abundance decreases motivation and creates a false sense of entitlement. Just look at companies like Enron who fabricate business models out of thin air. There's so much money floating around the United States, that monetary success has very little to do with creating any kind of value. Meanwhile, developing countries like China are plowing full steam ahead. Right now the United States is basically just riding a wave of lucky historical opportunity. Given the concentration of wealth and power, that wave can carry the US by intertia for quite some time, but maybe not as long as most Americans think.

At the same time....

Might want to remind the New Jersey legislature that "The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

At least with the First Amendment, they can get out of it by saying "It says "CONGRESS" shall make no law, not New Jersey."

Re:Are you a member of "a well-regulated militia"?

Actually, if you're an adult capable of bearing arms, you are a member of the militia. As far as the 1st amendment goes (or the rest of the Bill of Rights for that matter), they are extended to the states through the 14th amendment. Wow, that 1st degree in Political Science, was actually worth something!

Yes, you may be a member!

Actually, check the criteria in the U.S. Code. [tinyurl.com] You may be a member of what is called the "unorganized militia." I'll print it below for your convenience.

Title 10 Subtitle A Part 1 Chapter 13 Section 311

311. Militia: composition and classes
Release date: 2005-07-12

(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.

(b) The classes of the militia are--

1. the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and
2. the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.

Don't be led by the recent release date into believing that this is something new. This is very old law.

Re:Yes, you may be a member!

Nitpicking perhaps, but can this be interpreted to mean that women, and men aged 45 or greater, who are not currently in the National Guard, do *not* have the right to bear arms?

Not really. The 2nd amendment guarantees the right "of the people" to bear arms, not the right of the militia to bear arms.