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Patents of Business Destruction
Posted by
CmdrTaco
on Tue Feb 07, 2006 08:48 AM
from the something-to-think-about dept.
from the something-to-think-about dept.
SnapShot writes "Over on Slate there's an opinion article on the Blackberry patent case. Here's a quote: 'It's easy to bash trolls as evil extortionists, to do so may be to miss an important lesson: Patent trolls aren't evil, but rational and predictable, akin to the mold that eventually grows on rotten meat. They're useful for understanding how the world of software patent got to where it is and what might be done to fix it.' "
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I wonder how the trolls think, reading this. :) (Score:5, Funny)
Re:I wonder how the trolls think, reading this. :) (Score:4, Funny)
No... They weren't *that* mean. Besides, we could've complained to the JAG about that.
The solution (Score:5, Funny)
(Last Journal: Friday February 11 2005, @04:09AM)
How to fix it? (Score:1)
(http://www.php121.com/)
Re:How to fix it? (Score:5, Insightful)
Almost there (Score:5, Insightful)
(http://slashdot.org/~hummassa | Last Journal: Wednesday August 22, @05:11AM)
Date of filing,not invention (Score:4, Informative)
So yes, I agree with your proposals but they don't go far enough.
Re:How to fix it? (Score:4, Insightful)
(http://anothy.9srv.net/)
along with that is the problem that it's not really appropriate any more to enforce one length for all patents. even just in "computers", for example, 5 years sounds about right for new technologies in chip manufacture, but is an eternity in software design.
separate from this but related on several points is the fact that the current patent process is not transparent. that is, i can submit a patent that you have no way of knowing about - and thus knowing you're infringing - for up to a few years. that's plenty of time to build an entire business today. ideally, patents should be visible from date of filing.
i'd also agree with the common complaint on patents on mathematics, on the principle that they are naturally occurring phenomenon, not true inventions. this eliminates a good number of software patents but still leaves room for truly novel activities. having to choose all or none, i'd back the "no software patents" position, because doing real evaluations of that class of patents is hard and costly, and it's worse for innovation - at least today, if not always - to grant too many than too few.
the most important thing people need to remember, and most of the involved government seems to have forgotten, is what the point of patents are. the constitution is often silent on intent; this is one of the few cases where it actually tells us why it's doing what it's doing. patents exist explicitly to "to promote the progress of science and useful arts".
honestly, i think we need somebody with lots of free time and discretionary income to make a big fuss about this. i believe the current PTO policies are unconstitutional and violate existing Supreme Court findings (see, for example, Diamond v. Diehr, 450 U.S. 175, which excluded patents on "laws of nature, physical phenomena, and abstract ideas").
for point of reference, one of my current responsibilities is working on our company's IP portfolio. i'm quite familiar with the current rules. they're stupid, but in order to remain competitive companies are often forced (by the market, not legally) to play by them. it's unrealistic to expect companies (or individual filers) to simply "do the right thing" with regard to what they're filing, or even to have any idea how to evaluate that.
Expect the worst (Score:5, Interesting)
(http://janneinosaka.blogspot.com/)
Forget about maximizing the best possible outcome in the best possible world. It's not going to happen anyway, so why worry about it? Instead, focus on the worst possible outcome, and create your system so as to minimize that. Any outcome that turns out better than that pessimistic minimum is then just a happy bonus.
So, make rules for patents that discourages fluff patents and extortion (you need to deposit a substantial sum that is returned upon a successful grant, but witheld if turned down?). Make it reasonably easy to challenge patents when invalid grants have slipped through, but that discourages vapid challenges (loser pays, for example).
Re:Expect the worst (Score:5, Insightful)
(Last Journal: Tuesday February 07 2006, @09:37AM)
This (IMHO) is a downfall of capitalism - businesses no longer compete by making a better product, they compete by leveraging laws and other details against any existing and would-be competitors. If you can manipulate the rules, you do not have to play as hard.
Re:Expect the worst (Score:4, Insightful)
(http://photo.net/photos/swillden | Last Journal: Wednesday July 19 2006, @01:42PM)
patents were a result of trying to protect innovators and exploration of progress
Not exactly. And it's worth understanding the purpose of patents when trying to think about how the system can be fixed.
The purpose of patents was to promote progress by encouraging inventors to publish the details of their inventions. In a world without patents, inventors had a strong motivation to keep the workings of their inventions (which were physical devices) as secret as possible, so that others couldn't duplicate them. The notion of patents was introduced to open up (the word 'patent' derives from the latin 'patere', which means "to be open", and scientific and medical communities still use the term to mean "open", or "free of obstruction") the details of inventions so that others could learn from and build on the ideas. Inventors recieve a temporary monopoly on their idea in exchange for publishing the details. The bottom line, though is that patents are supposed to primarily benefit the public, not patent holders. Any patent regime that fails that test is broken. The ideal patent structure is that which generates the greatest flow of ideas to the public, and it should be obvious that this optimization problem is one that requires constant retuning as the structure of society and the nature of research changes.
The same is true of copyright, by the way. Copyrights should primarily benefit the public, in the form of increased flow of materials into the public domain. Any benefits that accrue to copyright holders are mere byproducts of the primary goal. Like patents, copyrights require constant tuning to ensure that they're providing the maximum benefit to society. Like patents, the current copyright system does nothing of the sort.
Isn't it ironic? (Score:5, Funny)
Fix it? (Score:4, Insightful)
There is nothing wrong with the 'patent troll' (Score:2, Interesting)
(http://www.code-geek.com/ | Last Journal: Thursday April 24 2003, @11:04AM)
if by 'patent troll' the author means people who buy up neglected patents, and then enforce them, how is this bad ? Its no different than some real-estate agents who buy up crappy houses, give them the once over, and flip them for profit. One man's garbage
If the author means 'people who file friviolous patents', thats alread self limiting. Its either a very time intensive process to write a good broad patent, or a very costly process to have someone do it for you. A non broad patent isn't very enforcable except in the EXACT case that it states. The average patent out there has fees associated with it that are well above 15k over the life of the patent.
Its not like someone just sends in a document, and *poof* they have a patent for 25 years. You have fees all along the way until the patent expires. Assuming the patent even gets granted and is novel.
What people don't seem to realize is that for ever RIM-esque patent case, there are thousands of infringements that never even get discovered or enforced. [either due to cost or time or neglect]
There are very large companies *cough*-*cough* ebay *cough* *cough* Microsoft *Cough* that have been charged with several large patent infringement cases, and simply paid out to the inventors listed on the patent. Or bought the rights from them. YEARS after the fact.
There are companies out there who's entire product lines infringe on patents held by private inventors, guys like you and me in our garages, who can't do anything about it because of the legal fees. I mean, what can one little guy do against a company that has 50-60 million in sales every quarter
The reason patent trolls exist isn't because they are 'evil' or 'money grubbing'. Its because problems like this exist, and they are willing to either step in to help enforce patents, or willing to purchase the patent themselves and take all the risk with the rewards in mind.
But to sugges that we not allow patents to be filed for some of the reasons mentioned here, like non functiong prototypes etc
Stop handing out "business method" patents (Score:4, Insightful)
"For most of U.S. history, patents had traditionally been issued in tangible objects, like monkey wrenches. For years, the courts and the PTO took a hard line against granting patents on intangibles like software or "business methods," based perhaps on the instinct that such inventions are too abstract and might cause economic damage.
All that changed in the 1980s and '90s, when Congress concentrated patent's appellate duties in a single court--the Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit. Over time, that court changed course on software and other questionable areas of patent, transforming the system from one that was highly conservative to one that's much more liberal."
I sincerely think we must abolish all patents on "ideas" and "methods". The whole notion of a corporation patenting a way to do business seems absurd and completely against the notion of free market competition. At the rate that we're going, pretty soon we'll have a stage where any person wanting to start a new business will need to purchase a set of licenses from corporations, not counties/states!
Another thought would be about how to resolve the multiple patent regimes around the world. As the Internet and globalization break down geographical barriers, we need a patent system(if at all) that will serve the entire world. What happens if a person in China or Brazil originally comes up with an idea for a new business? Will he need to check with the USPTO to see if it has been registered in the US? In Europe? Why? Does the USPTO check patent histories in other countries?
Everything is potentially 'Useful' (Score:4, Insightful)
Just like Viruses, Worms & Malware are useful for Anti-Virus/Spyware companies to analyze how they got to where they are, and what might be done to fix them.
Guns don't kill people... (Score:2, Insightful)
Nope. Blame here isn't mutually exclusive or singularly exhaustive. They're all crap.
Just like ISPs, CAN-SPAM and spammers themselves are all to blame for the 50+ messages I have to clear out of my inbox every morning.
A case study in business, law, and government... (Score:2, Insightful)
(http://jimmybearpearson.com/ | Last Journal: Thursday November 09 2006, @10:10AM)
Throw into this mix patent squatters (think of it this way: some folks buy internet domain names (that are company/product/identifiable names) not for themselves or for their own uses, but to hope that someday, some company will pay large sums for the privilege of having the given domain name - now apply that idea to patents). In addition to patent squatters, there are true trolls - the folks that patent ideas that they can't even hope to produce or innovate.
What's the solution? I don't know that there is a simple solution at all. Market forces, billions (trillions?) in investments and in speculation are at stake, as well as jobs, ideas, and growth of economies. The one thing I do know for sure is that reform often hurts, but is usually worth it. Perhaps concentrated analysis from all interested parties and establishment of simplified patent rules? I wish I had the answer.
Blackberry isn't relevant (Score:4, Interesting)
This still leaves open the question of whether the patents should have ever been issued to begin with. Software patents are asinine. Almost as asinine as being able to patent something that exists in nature.
Oh, oh!!! Great business idea! Invent a new programming language and patent it. Then when people start releasing software written in it you can sue all of them for infringement.
How to fix patents (Score:3, Interesting)
The patent trolls that run around gobbling up defunct businesses to exploit other peoples work do nothing to help inovation - they mostly stand in the way. Patents are there to protect the inovators not the scavengers.
Predictable, yes... but like mold? (Score:3, Interesting)
(http://www.dimcap.net/)
Too many shyster opportunists (Score:5, Insightful)
I know a guy that has made a fortune taking trademarks and copyrights filed locally only in Canada or the US and filing them in his name globally. If that local, Canadian or US company wants to go global, they have to pay this guy royalties for using their own name.
It may be sneaky and underhanded but its totally within the law.
Same goes for patent trolls or squatters. Come up with our buy some idea that today might seem far-fetched, keep the language ambiguous and generalized, and as soon as some other company actually makes a product with similar function or purpose a reality, jump on them and sue the pants off of them.
There are entire companies set up that buy and hold patents. Buying them off individuals and small companies and simply sitting on them, with a large team of shysters paid scouring patent applications and product releases hoping that some company might make a product that infringes on the patents they hold. These companies (contrary to what they might have you believe) are not think tanks nor do any research and development nor have any interest in making the ideas a reality. They simply sit on paper. It's entirely legal for a company to do nothing, let another company do all the work, and expect royalties or licensing fees to sell a product they actually spent time and money developing, or sue the pants off these companies. Its like corporate slavery.
Patents have been twisted and corrupted from something to protect innovators from having their ideas ripped off to one that penalizes innovators for having good ideas and spending the time and money and effort to make an idea a reality.
Patents have become a dirty word.
There needs to be changes imposed, period. Patent law needs to be rewritten, not just for software, but in all cases. This isn't happening fast enough.
Missed the point as usual (Score:3, Insightful)
I can't wait... (Score:1)
(Last Journal: Thursday February 09 2006, @01:35PM)
Working in Pharma? (Score:3, Insightful)
(http://slashdot.org/journal.pl?op=list&uid=907337 | Last Journal: Tuesday August 07, @10:58AM)
Drug companies launch ad campaigns where they try to justify their high prices (that lock people out) by stating that today's profits drive tomorrow's innovations. But if the high drug prices are simply to provide for tomorrow's R&D, then why do they show a $Billion in profit: By definition that money should either be a decrease in drug costs, or should have been spent on r&d
So there remains a very real question: Do patents really work in the drug business? I'm not sure that they don't promote innovation, but I'm sure that they generate monopoly profits. So, while that might be taken to mean that they're working, it can also be taken to mean that some reform might not be a bad idea there either...
Why the spin? (Score:2)
(http://www.lawhacker.com/ | Last Journal: Saturday July 26 2003, @09:14AM)
You really, really need to listen to yourself. This "argument" is wholly devoid of substance, and is so on its face. First of all, wtf is a patent troll, that distinguishes it (assuming he is a faceless corporation rather than a legitimate and independent inventor) from, say, a property owner or landlord? Are you willing to defend the argument with that substitution, and if so, perhaps we need to rethink on which side of the argument we are laying?
And if you find some fundamental difference (and oh my there are certainly differences), deeper than the sea that makes you rebel at that, what is the difference between the "patent troll" (bad) protecting his intellectual property rights in "software patent" (evil), and the true genius independent inventor (good) defending his honor and creativity in a pioneering invention? Isn't that fundamentally just a question of whether the patent troll is suing a company we like, or an inventor we like is suing an evil corporation?
And what, pray tell, do you mean by a "software patent," that makes it so fundamentally different and unworkable from, you know, a patent on a method that has been enshrined in the patent act from time immemorial? Is it possible that a (good) invention could have been created that relates to electronic devices or circuits, and the methods of using them? If so, how do we distinguish? In partciular, are you seriously suggesting theat each and every one of the claims asserted against RIM in the lawsuit are software patents? Remember, infringement of a single valid claim of a single enforceable patent is sufficient.
Are you sure that NTP is an amoral patent troll asserting an improbable software patent, or is it every patent plaintiff who wins a case that you are complaining about? Are you sure that the patents-in-suit are evil and probably invalid softgware patents, or is it possible that NTP has succeeded to the rights to a meaningful invention? Is it possible, in particular, that RIM is simply a business that lifted itself up on the shoulders of others and arrogantly ignored the legitimate rights of the inventors on whose shoulders they are standing? RIM could have bought out of this suit easily earlier, and only talked settlement when it was clear they were facing an injunction worth billions. If, for just a second, you assume that they borrowed the invention of another and stood as a faceless, amoral giant corproation telling the inventor they will ignore his property for so long as lawyers allow -- where is the evil or emptiness of morality then?
In short, wtf is your argument? Is it:
Patents are bad?
Software patents are bad?
or
Bad software patents are bad?
Can you actually defend your case and distinctions without demagoguing on the third issue (with which we are in agreement)? I haven't seen a sound argument (and there are some) for cases (1) or (2) on this forum for years.
dual perspectives (Score:2, Insightful)
The whole concept of creativity has been crushed by this red tape jungle. I think that if a company makes a product on their own, and its kick ass, let it ride. However, if a company steals an idea intentionally (note the intentionally) then they should be beat with a copper pipe, baseball bat, and motorcyle chain.
I just do not believe the government should ever be able to regulate creativity.
-dan
http://www.ChooseDan.com [choosedan.com]
Uh, this does not grok (Score:1)
(http://kim.biyn.com/)
Excuse me, but isn't Amazon the company which attempted to hijack ecommerce by patenting the "buy now" button?
Isn't Microsoft the company applying for 300 patents per week (or was it per 300 per day)?
If these companies are so supportive of patent reform, shouldn't they lead by example? Or, is what they mean by "reform" limiting the right to patent to publicly-traded companies?
What if companies stopped filing for patents? (Score:2, Interesting)
Cauterize the wound (Score:1)
Well, the original plan was to leave the US system to fester and finally collapse under its own weight while our system just rolled on in comparative sanity. Alas, our idiotic elected neoconservatives in parliament went and signed us up to an astonishingly bad unilateral "Free Trade Agreement" with the US and now we're just as screwed.
I don't understand (Score:3, Interesting)
The patents in questions are likely to be rejected. The whole object of this lawsuit are those patents.
How can the judge dismiss that? What if he awards the injunction, either forces to close or settle. One way or another. What will happen if/when the patents ARE rejected? Because the lawsuit would have been on invalid ground?
Why can't this new evidence taken into account for the lawsuit? I don't understand this law aberation. Why can't the judge either order to wait to know the result of the patent re-examination, or forces the PTO to re-examine faster and be a party in the lawsuit?
I just don't understand why this lawsuit is going on ground (patents) that are likely to be dismissed and deemed invalid. Because if I understand right, patents not valid = lawsuit not founded anymore.
Can someone explain?
Patent VS Copyright (Score:1)
Don't drink the kool aid (Score:1)
NTP and their ilk go after the big guys, who couldn't care less about anyone else. The big guys would be happy to see the patent system defanged, because then money decides, and the small players like me can be swatted aside, whereas now they have to think twice before they copy a good idea.
This is not to say I think things are hunky dory right now - the whole NTP thing could have been prevented if the patent office has enough money [bizjournals.com] to speed review (oh wait, the big boys aren't actually clamoring for more money for the patent office, because that way the machine can break down more spectacularly); an open-publication with open review of filed patents as the IEEE is proposing [slashdot.org].
But I am saying that the big boys are using those legitimate issues as a smokescreen for the real goal - make it easier to screw over the small inventors.
Re:Funny definition of useful (Score:5, Funny)
Yeah, patent trolls are not evil, they're just greedy, devoid of morals and will do anything to further their ambitions
Oh wait, THAT'S LIKE THE VERY DEFINITION OF EVIL. What kind of idiot writes those articles?
Re:Funny definition of useful (Score:4, Interesting)
(http://www.kibbee.ca/)
Re:Funny definition of useful (Score:1)
Saying something is predictable, or systemic, or rational, implies that otherwise normal people will end up doing said things because the 'rules of the game' promote them (and by rules of the game i don't only mean laws). Rather than looking to solve the problem by punishing an unending stream of 'evil people' (eg downloaders) we should try to reformulate the system. Examples might include the existence of rich people in poor countries, people eating factory-farmed meat, insider trading etc.
Saying people are evil is used on the one hand to generate misdirected aggression at a whole group of people, e.g. the current Denmark fiasco. On the other hand it is also often used by those in power to try to deflect attention to others, e.g. GWB blaming the evil prison guards for what happened at Abu Ghraib or Microsoft blaming evil hackers for the insecurity of their own operating system.
Both uses are essentially unintellectual, which is why it is useful to describe things in other terms.
Re:Funny definition of useful (Score:4, Funny)
Now a company like SCO just has to be Chaotic Evil. Can you predict what they are going to do next?
Re:Don't hate the player, hate the game (Score:2)
(http://www.informationr.us/ | Last Journal: Monday November 05, @09:38AM)
Re:Funny definition of useful (Score:2)
(http://www.linuxlabs.com)
Consider it as a strange form of looking on the bright side as in while looking over the smoldering ruins of your car saying "At least I don't have to rotate the tires now".