Slashdot Log In
Fighting RIAA Without an Attorney
Posted by
ScuttleMonkey
on Mon Dec 26, 2005 04:24 AM
from the go-down-swinging dept.
from the go-down-swinging dept.
2think writes "Yahoo News is reporting that Patricia Santangelo of New York will be taking on the RIAA in court without an attorney. It seems that Ms. Santangelo has committed over $24,000 due to her case and simply cannot afford to continue with the services of an attorney." From the article: "Her former lawyer, Ray Beckerman, says Santangelo doesn't really need him. 'I'm sure she's going to win,' he said. 'I don't see how they could win. They have no case. They have no evidence she ever did anything. They don't know how the files appeared on her computer or who put them there.'"
This discussion has been archived.
No new comments can be posted.
The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.
Full
Abbreviated
Hidden
Loading... please wait.
Imagine if a trend started... (Score:5, Interesting)
In a serious vein, if she wins it will set precedent and give hope to others that can't afford a lawyer.
Re:Imagine if a trend started... (Score:5, Insightful)
At this point, even if he told her that she could never make it without him, he'd sound like a greedy bastard. This way, he shows that he's nice and really cares about his clients, even after they've stopped paying him.
If she wins, he gets to imply (or let people imply) that it was because of suggestions that he gave her. If she loses, well... he gets to sit there quietly and let people shake their heads and say "She never should've fired that lawyer".
Realistically, though, he's probably just a nice person. The lawyers that I know are no different from anyone else, and they really are more interested in doing the right thing than making a few extra bucks.
Parent
Re:Imagine if a trend started... (Score:5, Insightful)
Having taken $24000 off her and leaving her broke.
No, having provided a service for a fee that was agreed upon in advance. He didn't "take" anthing.
Parent
Re:Imagine if a trend started... (Score:5, Insightful)
For which I'm sure she's got services rendered. It's sort of like getting a lease on a car to drive around the world, and half-way there you're broke. Was the car rental really the one to screw you over?
Now, he probably should have given her some better legal advice on how long this'd take and how much it'd cost, but I don't know how much cheaper it'd get. As long as he is her attorney I assume he has responsibilities for her defense which means his paralegals have to do the rest, even the parts she might do on her own.
What's the alternative? I'm sure you've heard the saying "Anyone who represents himself has a fool for a client". It'd be a matter of sooner versus later. Maybe he hoped a lawyer and real legal defense could make them drop the case before she ran out of money. In any case, I don't think it would have been good legal advice to say "don't hire me" either.
What else could he do? Take it pro bono? Possibly, but I doubt a guy representing single mothers of five rake in millions. He probably has a student loan to pay, mortgage to pay, kids to feed and so on. In short, she's getting the shaft but I don't quite see how he's at fault for that.
Parent
Well... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Well... (Score:5, Interesting)
The RIAA does not sue individuals for the money. The RIAA sues individuals to garner press through which they intend to frighten entire populations of individuals into not downloading.
This whole story is tailor-made to their efforts. The moral of it is, even when it is impossible to prove the illicit origin of music files on your computer, you still might be unlucky enough to be involved in litigation that can cost you big bucks. The message is, "parents: monitor the content of your kids' hardrives carefully, lest it end up costing you. Digital music just ain't worth the potential hassle."
Intelligent strategy. But getting the story on slashdot during Christmas break is absolutely brilliant.
Parent
Re:Well... (Score:5, Informative)
The DMCA passed with bi-partisan support. Congress was one thing, the Senate was another, as far as control by each party went at the time. The President was a Democrat, but was wasting an enormous amount of time fighting utterly ridiculous claims of "sexual harassment", "Whitewater fraud", and finally "Lying about something that was irrelevent to the first case but was brought up in that court anyway in order to create embarassment." I think it's sad he didn't stand up on the job, but I wouldn't draw any conclusions about it having anything to do with cozying up to Hollywood.
It is false to use a lack of Democratic opposition to the DMCA to pretend that a claim Republicans support this shit is false. It is 100% true that Republicans support extreme copyright laws. Both the DMCA and the Sonny Bono (R) Copyright Act were Republican proposals, with bi-partisan support.
Parent
She's going to lose... (Score:5, Insightful)
That's her defense. Good luck, Patricia. Yer gonna needit.
More than reasonable doubt (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:More than reasonable doubt (Score:5, Informative)
How many times is it necessary to say this? "Proof beyond a reasonable doubt" applies to criminal cases only. There is no finding of guilt or innocence in a civil case, only a determination of legal responsibility, a judgment for the plaintiff or defendant based on the simplest and most plausible interpretation of the evidence.
Parent
Possession is not a tort, moron. (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Her Case Raises Interesting Issues (Score:5, Insightful)
Why is it the responsibility of this woman to become a security expert in order to benefit the RIAA ?
Re:Her Case Raises Interesting Issues (Score:5, Insightful)
No one has to become a security expert to connect a computer to the Internet, but not doing so potentially opens yourself to this sort of lawsuit, even if you've never done anything wrong. And even if you can prove you're innocent of any wrongdoing, you'll still end up spending your life's savings and then-some just to argue the case in court. So perhaps the question should not be, "Is it anyone's responsibility to become a security expert if they want to use the Internet," but rather, "Can they afford not to?" And no it's not extortion, because we don't call it that.
Parent
Shooting themselves in the foot once again (Score:5, Insightful)
As an on-site computer technician, I've talked with many parents who didn't understand they were still taking a risk by letting their children download from Limewire Pro. They think since they paid for the program, they have paid for the music. They don't under the difference between peer-to-peer programs and legitimate music download services.
I often think that the RIAA is going to turn many novice computer users off from online purchasing altogether because they are going after the unsophisticated user who doesn't understand copyright and what constitutes a legitimate channel and what does not. If they really want to stop online piracy, they need to go after the makers of the software, not the poor people they duped into believing that they had "purchased" music.
Re:Shooting themselves in the foot once again (Score:5, Insightful)
They would be ok with that. They aren't really the music industry, after all - they are the "distributing plastic discs" industry. With online purchasing dead they would hope people might buy plastic discs again.
Their business is distribution - yet they want to continue to exist even when distribution is no longer necessary, or at least what minor amount is necessary is now handled by the customer. It's as if a trolley company wanted to stay in business after everyone started buying cars - the company sold off all its trolleys, sold off the rights-of-way, fired all the trolley conductors, but still wants you to pay them the fare every time you drive yourself in to work.
Parent
Re:Shooting themselves in the foot once again (Score:5, Insightful)
They aren't really the music industry, after all - they are the "distributing plastic discs" industry. With online purchasing dead they would hope people might buy plastic discs again.
And that bears repeating. Since when did we start calling them "The Music Industry" anyway? Used to be, we referred to them as "The Recording Industry". Music isn't an industry per se, it is (or was) an art form. Surely it's indicative of the way the argument has been framed in the favor of the RIAA that we mispeak so easily -- to the denigration of the true artists involved (the real producers of the 'product') and the false elevation of the RIAA to a privileged status of ownership.
But I realize that to frame the "IP" argument in real terms (who really owns the work that's produced?) would laid bare more of the recording industries darkside than just the spurious lawsuits against consumer "pirates". And again it comes back to Copyright -- imagine for a moment, in a sane Copyright regime; that I, as the musical artist, possessed only the original exclusivity originally envisioned by the Framers -- then only that limited term could be contracted to a distributor/licensee of the work. After all, you can't legally sell what you don't own.
Imagine then, a marketplace where musicians couldn't sell their souls for a recording contract (or be required to) because (if by 'souls' we mean the absurd "lifetime plus x years" of rights) they don't possess such rights in the first place. One could sell the extent of one's (reasonable) rights (say, 5 years?) which is close enough to the existing shelf life of the product in the industries marketing cycle anyway. After that, anyone could record and market the music (or a version of it) but, then, so could the artist themselves (John Fogerty, anyone?) or the fans themselves (ala Phish, the Dead, etc. or in fact the situation that is slowly being obtained sub rosa...). Of course Lessig's been saying somewhat the same all this time as well, in terms of how a reasonable regime would act in furtherance of the arts and of culture. Imagine the ramifications of it. Information may or may not want to be free, but culture certainly does, and will work to free itself of restraint by nature.
Their business is distribution - yet they want to continue to exist even when distribution is no longer necessary, or at least what minor amount is necessary is now handled by the customer.
What the recording industry is contending with now is the tendency of society to organize itself along such a more reasonable and natural (and much more efficient) mode of operation. That is real enterprise at work. The RIAA (and the MPAA et al.) are attempting through monopolism (a kind of state-assisted terrorism in this case) to maintain an artificial marketplace that technology and culture are conspiring to transcend. Personally, my money is on the latter agents of economic evolution. And the fact that it's all devolved into the hands of attorneys and accountants shows how close the end is near for this so-called "industry".
Parent
This case is important (Score:5, Insightful)
Where can I make a donation to her legal defense fund?
And why has the EFF not taken up the case?
Re:This case is important (Score:5, Interesting)
Where did the hard disk come from?
Was it AND/OR the OS cleanly installed and by whom?
Who else had access to the machine, physical and remote?
If the RIAA were able to access it
i) did they trespass to do so?
ii) does this not mean anybody else also had remote access to the machine?
What evidence is there that the machine was not infected or part of a botnet?
How did the RIAA get hold of any ISP logs?
Do the logs conclusively prove a download was requested AND received?
Do the logs conclusively prove she personally was the instigator, bound to that IP address/timeframe?
If she had this data on her machine did she also have the means to decode it thus the means and intent to listen to it?
Lets see a full audit of every piece of code on that machine!
I'm sure y'all can do a lot better too. She shouldn't need to *hire experts*, she should have dozens of them gagging to jump into the fray and give the RIAA a bloody nose. I wonder why not. Is there something about this case that's not being aired?
Parent
Defense line (for free) (Score:5, Interesting)
Excellent Observation (Score:5, Insightful)
To understand the blatantly false statements the RIAA and their shills love to make, you have to see through their numerous incorrect premises:
1. Copying and sharing, the basis of all human culture and advancement, are somehow heinous crimes in the digital age.
2. Seeing something is the same as doing something.
3. The US's laws apply to everyone in the world, and are superior to every other law.
4. Legality is more important than morality.
5. Your property belongs to some corporation instead of to you.
6. Creativity cannot exist without cartels and monopolies.
7. Guaranteed profits are better than freedom.
Every person who advocates for the RIAA and punishing downloaders falls for one or more of these errors. Reject these, and you see the RIAA's legal tactics for what they are: criminal extortion and racketeering. Now that the RIAA gets to teach these awful anti-values to elementary students, however, the future of freedom is in serious jeopardy.
Parent
Re:Excellent Observation (Score:5, Interesting)
1. Copying and sharing, the basis of all human culture and advancement, are somehow heinous crimes in the digital age.
This is what is known as "amphiboly" (look it up via google for a full definition.) Here you attempt to link the cuddly and innocent terms "copying", "sharing", "human culture and advamcent" with acts that break the social contract known as copyright. Copyright exists for a reason: the reasons should be well known to you by now and history and economics have shown UNQUESTIONABLY that the notion of copyright (and other IP mechanisms) (and the necessary enforcement that comes with it) are actually very useful for "human culture and advancement." While I'm sure you are just oozing with junior high logic as to why that is not so, the reality of the situation is that if you look accross ANY combination of industry, country segment, etc where there are strong IP regulations, in the overwhelming number of cases, having strong IP laws DO what they are designed to do: encourage production (and therefore, advance human culture.)
2. Seeing something is the same as doing something.
The problem with this argument is INTENT. When somebody downloads music off the internet that they do not have the righs to, they are generally VERY CLEARLY taking an action that any damn fool knows is illegal. Because the law views intent as important, this is why what is being done is bad. Plus, there is the fact that under many P2P programs, once you download something you automatically generally propagate it as well (consider how eDonkey works, for example).
3. The US's laws apply to everyone in the world, and are superior to every other law
Here you just like making cartoon attack against the USA. The fact is that in EVERYWHERE in the world where you are likely to be reading this (except for taiwan), IP laws have been harmonized to the point where the basics are the same. Sure, there have been some odd lower court rulings in Canada, France, etc, but generally these are eventually struck down and the basics upheld for the simple reason that all civilized countries are producers of IP and recognize that their economies (and therefore the welfare of the people) depend on IP laws being enforced.
4. Legality is more important than morality.
This is a general claim that we could also make of pirates who try to spin torturous explanations of "fair use" into how they can fairly share with millions of people anonymously. "Morality?" I dont know about morality, but I do know that strong IP rules make good economies which make higher standard of living for all - the link is blatantly obvious to anybody who has taken time to study this.
5. Your property belongs to some corporation instead of to you.
This is a nice attempt at a smear, but with no basis in reality. Many things are licensed, not sold, and we as a society have come to understand that there are necessary limits, for the good of all, to how intellectual goods can be distributed.
6. Creativity cannot exist without cartels and monopolies.
Oh stop already. This is cartoon nonsense.
7. Guaranteed profits are better than freedom.
Zzzzz..
Parent
Re:Out of Curious Interest (Score:5, Insightful)
Copyright is the right to make copies. Only the copyright holder can make and distribute copies. Fair use allows a defence against infringement in certain circumstances, but we'll assume for the sake of argument using a P2P app to grab a complete copy of a copyrighted work isn't one of them.
Now, the person uploading a non-licenced copyrighted work is definitely breaking the law, as they are distributing. The question is, is the person downloading also making a copy? After all, the copy is actually assembled on the downloaders machine. In jurisdictions where you're allowed to make personal copies, it's possible you could argue you're just getting a rip of something you already own, or that you assumed the uploader had permission to distribute.
Instead, they could try to get you with contributory infringement, i.e. you had knowledge of the infringement (making a copy) and materially contributed (i.e. your computer downloading the copy at your request)
Uploaders are definitely at risk, legally, but downloaders are in a much greyer area, depending on wording and interpretation of the law. If you get caught in the act of downloading, or have a large collection of material which is obviously infringing copies, you may well face a lawsuit.
Imagine the police turned up to arrest a street vendor selling what turns out to be dodgy music CDs while you're buying one. It'd be hard to get you for anything. Now imagine they catch you giving the guy a blank CD so he can copy something for you on the spot - it'd be much easier to get you for contributory infringement, especially if you already have a CD wallet full of things you don't have orginial copies of. Downloading is somewhat similar. As far as I've been able to check, all the P2P users lawsuits have been about uploading, though the media tend to use uploaded and downloaded interchangably, incorrectly.
Either way, you're a lot safer being a leech, though you're definitely still taking somewhat of a risk.
Parent
Re:No Lawyer equals no rights (Score:5, Informative)
http://www.organicconsumers.org/politics/mclibel2
Furthermore, in the United States, you have a Right to self representation, any Judge who would refuse to read a brief from someone self representing would be overturned on appeal, something no Judge wants.
More recently, the Supreme Court has expounded the right to represent oneself, holding first in Faretta v. California 422 U.S. 806 (1975) that the power to choose or waive council lies with the accused, and the state can not intrude, even as it later held Gidinez v. Moran, 509 U.S. 389 (1993) if the state believed the accused less than fully competant to adequately proceed without council.
The circuit courts have narrowed the right to exclude appeal procedures as in Martinez v. California Court of Appeals 528 U.S. 152, 163 (2000), and again by reference in US v. Moussaoui (4th Cir. 2003) (No. 03-4162); however, this restriction is new, inconsistent with precedent, and has yet to be tested in the Supreme Court.
Parent
Re:How do they know? (Score:5, Informative)
The RIAA used a modified version of Kazaa Lite to access the Kazaa network and track down people who shared copyrighted music. Kazaa Lite is an unauthorised version of the Kazaa client, which is why Sharman Networks is suing the RIAA for copyright infringement in a separate suit.
Parent
Re:We already know that shoplifting is illegal! (Score:5, Funny)
Something like this:
Parent