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Censorship The Internet

Bloggers Test New MS China Filter 356

Posted by Zonk from the free-as-in-freedom dept.
earthbound kid writes "Rebecca MacKinnon at Global Voices Online has set up a test of Microsoft's censored blogs on MSN China (see previous Slashdot story) with screenshots. It seems that MSN rejected titling a new blog 'I love freedom of speech, human rights, and democracy' (in Chinese) because 'The title must not contain prohibited language, such as profanity.' MacKinnon managed to use a workaround and got a pro-freedom blog up, for the moment."
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Bloggers Test New MS China Filter More

Bloggers Test New MS China Filter

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  • Why not use pornsites' tactics in here?

    Like for example, "dmeocarcy" instead of "democracy", "frit psot" instead of well youknow, etc?

    • Re:hmmmmmmmmmm (Score:5, Funny)

      by beakerMeep ( 716990 ) on Friday June 17, 2005 @04:51PM (#12846333)
      how do you write "dmeocarcy" in chinese?

      • Re:hmmmmmmmmmm (Score:3, Insightful)

        by rly2000 ( 779141 )
        characters. But you can always post images of characters that can't be easily checked by a computer.
      • how do you write "dmeocarcy" in chinese?

        "mni zuh"? :)

        More seriously, "U+6c11 U+738b" (min2 wang2) would be conceptually close.
        • That's Pinyin, not Simplified or Traditional Chinese.

          • Re:hmmmmmmmmmm (Score:4, Insightful)

            by Haeleth ( 414428 ) on Friday June 17, 2005 @05:11PM (#12846564) Journal
            "U+6c11 U+738b" most certainly is not pinyin - it is a pair of references to Chinese characters in the Unicode character set. The pinyin following them was intended to tell people which characters they were without having to look them up.

            To be precise, the first was the same min2 as in min2 zhu3 "democracy", while the second, wang2, is a character identical to the zhu3 of "democracy", except that it lacks one tiny stroke at the top. The idea was that this would be as close conceptually as you could come to misspelling a word within the Chinese writing system, see?

            (If Slashdot would only get with the 20th century and permit Unicode in postings - or even just parse HTML entities instead of stripping them - then this sort of misunderstanding would never happen...)

            • Re:hmmmmmmmmmm (Score:5, Interesting)

              by pcmanjon ( 735165 ) on Friday June 17, 2005 @05:54PM (#12846981)
              "(If Slashdot would only get with the 20th century and permit Unicode in postings - or even just parse HTML entities instead of stripping them - then this sort of misunderstanding would never happen...)"

              Unlikely, I've modernized slashdot and the slashcode engine to be fully XML compliant and use DIV's instead of tables.

              I've even fixed it so you can make text larger in CSS without the overflow (like many of the people who have tried to modernize slashdot)

              My code additions were rejected, and I contacted every one of the editors through their personal emails... and haven't had a reply.

              I guess they're not concerned. Oh well..

      • Re:hmmmmmmmmmm (Score:2, Insightful)

        by kotj.mf ( 645325 )
        Actually, there are 4+ meanings for every sound in Chinese. Depending on your inflection, the word "ma" can mean mother, horse, or hemp, among other things.

        One would think that they'd actually have an easier time getting around the filters than their yingyu equivalents.
    • Semes liek ah gud idae ta mee, altho sum peeple fur whmo egnlish iz ah secund langwidge maht hab sum prolbems reeding sucth obfiscated txt.
      • Well that gives me an idea. Well, more like a thought. How feasible it is for the chinese to begin giving second meaning to certain words, sort like a secret code?
        • Hello. Go to the sofa and look for change.
          Your Uncle Mildred is happy to see you.
          Galvanize the subway on Thursday.
          • Oh, lordy.

            That's the problem with slashdot, any time anyone posts an *actually funny* comment, it doesn't get modded up.

            It's like the moderators have seen humor described in a book, but have no real first hand experience with it.

            Obviously this happens extensively (what the grandparent proposes) but it's a barrier to communication, and all such barriers make organization of dissident and populist movements - never easy - even harder.
    • My first reaction was "Because they are using Chinese characters, you idiot." However, on reflection, I have a question that only Chinese readers can answer: Is it possible to make "puns" on characters, e.g. to combine other characters with different meaning so that together they are pronounce the same as "democracy"? I'm sure the Chinese bloggers are bright enough to come up with ways around this censorship, just like the online gamers come up with ways around the censorship of objectionable words. Even if
      • I've got one (pardon the translation):

        The real horse is your mother.

        Get it?

        In spoken Chinese (or rather, the group of languages collectively called Chinese), each syllable is given one of four "tones". The meaning of the word changes if even one syllable is mis-toned. The whole language group is one big pun waiting to happen!

        See http://www.omniglot.com/writing/chinese_spoken.ht m [omniglot.com]
        for more details.
    • Well, to use letter transposition, you have to write with... um... letters.

      I see what you're after though. Perhaps spamming techniques *is* a freedom of speech issue after all...

  • The wonder of censorship... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by MosesJones ( 55544 ) on Friday June 17, 2005 @04:51PM (#12846326) Homepage

    Is that everyone knows you are censoring. It only truly works, when ala 1984 everyone is convinced that it isn't happening.

    Welcome to the internet China, and Microsoft, claiming you are "just enforcing local laws" is just a bad a defence of the freedoms you enjoy as the traditional "I was just obeying orders defence".

    • There's a difference between obeying the laws of a legitimate nation-state versus obeying the illegal orders of a superior officer.

      Like it or not, the PRC is a legitimate nation-state.
      • There's a difference between obeying the laws of a legitimate nation-state versus obeying the illegal orders of a superior officer.

        As with the superior officer, the decision in this case is whether to go into China and supress free speech, or to try and expand your Chinese audience from outside.

        Given the choice, Microsoft chose the option that "screw the first ammendment, we want cash".

      • There's a difference between obeying the laws of a legitimate nation-state versus ...

        That's true, but we were talking about Mainland China. If that's a legitimate government, then so is Mugabe's [telegraph.co.uk], and so was Phol Pot's [treklens.com].

        Don't make the mistake of assuming that just because a government is recognised by other governments, it's a legitimate government in a civilised country. Today, the only member of the international diplomatic community which stands up and says that Mugabe is an insane, evil dictator i

      • Re:The wonder of censorship... (Score:5, Insightful)

        by LWATCDR ( 28044 ) on Friday June 17, 2005 @07:30PM (#12847664) Homepage Journal
        Except Microsoft does not have to obey the laws of the PRC. They are choosing too obey those laws. Is the money worth it Bill? What price is it worth to declare human rights profane?

        It benefits a man nothing to sell his soul for the whole world... But for China....
    • Still beats the Chewbacca defense, though.
    • Welcome to the internet China, and Microsoft, claiming you are "just enforcing local laws" is just a bad a defence of the freedoms you enjoy as the traditional "I was just obeying orders defence".

      Around one fifth of the World's population is in China.

      Microsoft would be doing a terrible disservice to their shareholders if they didn't do everything possible to be able to do business with those billion+ people.

      • As long as we are all clear that this is why they are doing it, and American's stop complaining at home about Chinese people taking their jobs and being "unfair" by producing cheaper goods...

        You can't have your cake and eat it.
      • So what you're saying is, Money > Freedom. How more un-American can you get?
        • So what you're saying is, Money > Freedom. How more un-American can you get?

          Wow, wayda put words in my mouth.

          All I'm saying is that Microsoft is a Business.

          As a Business, Microsoft's first responsibility is to its shareholders - to maximize profits.

          China has HUGE porift potential for Microsoft. Therefore, they have a responsibility to their shareholders to try to do everything they can to do business there.

          Absolutely none of that equates to your claim of what I'm saying.
          • ry to do everything they can to do business there

            So if they had to pay bribes to Chinese officials to get business, that would be okay? If they had to smuggle in white slavegirls, would that be okay? What you're describing is a very mercantilist, mercenary, conscience-less philosophy of doing business. I don't support it, and I don't think Microsoft should.
            • So if they had to pay bribes to Chinese officials to get business, that would be okay? If they had to smuggle in white slavegirls, would that be okay? What you're describing is a very mercantilist, mercenary, conscience-less philosophy of doing business. I don't support it, and I don't think Microsoft should.

              Once again, I said aboslutely NONE of that.

          • Re:The wonder of censorship... (Score:4, Insightful)

            by Surt ( 22457 ) on Friday June 17, 2005 @05:48PM (#12846933) Homepage Journal
            No law or code of ethics trumps your responsibility to act morally. Microsoft is acting immorally, which violates their true first responsibility. Their second responsibility of course is to maximize shareholder value, which appears to be the responsibility they are taking more seriously.

          • Therefore, they have a responsibility to their shareholders to try to do everything they can to do business there.

            I don't get it. How is this not "money is more important than freedom"? You're saying Microsoft must trample on the rights of Chinese people in order to "do everything they can to do business there" in order to "maximize profits".

            There are no words in your mouth other than your own.
            • You're saying Microsoft must trample on the rights of Chinese people in order to "do everything they can to do business there" in order to "maximize profits".

              [...]

              There are no words in your mouth other than your own.

              Please show EXACTLY where I said that "Microsoft must trample on the rights of the Chinese people".

              The number of Straw-Man arguments getting thrown around here is ridiculous.
        • Just wake up from a 200 year nap or something? We sold our freedom a long time ago.
          Like it or not, most people out there don't WANT freedom. They'd rather be told what to like, what to do, how to do it, etc. Why? Because its easier, and they feel better about themselfs in the end. Its not my fault, I was just following protocol. I'm not ruining familys lives, I'm just enforcing the laws.

  • by drawing it to Microsoft's attention by posting it on Slashdot, one of the sites that most every Microsoft employee monitors for news.

    Shhhhheeeyit.
  • All we need to solve this problem is to convince China to broadcast Dallas reruns [wikipedia.org] as a method of showing how decadent the American lifestyle is. Hey, it worked for Romania, didn't it? ;-)

    More seriously, an AC a bit higher up had a good point. China is a sovereign nation and has full rights to what goes on inside their borders. We in the US may not *like* it, but their laws are their laws. No such laws exist to _allow_ for free speech. Now If the citizens decided to overthrow their government, then I'm sure

    • Re:The key is Dallas (Score:5, Interesting)

      by slavemowgli ( 585321 ) on Friday June 17, 2005 @05:05PM (#12846495) Homepage
      There often is a difference between what's legal and what's right in a moral sense - in other words, the "right" in "a right" is not the same as in "morally right".

      China may have the legal right to do whatever it wants with its citizens, no matter what that is, but it doesn't mean that it's morally OK for them to do it. Furthermore, China *did* sign and ratify the Universal Declaration of Human Rights - in fact, there even was a Chinese professor (Zhang Pengjun) on the commission that drafted the declaration.

      That being said - as has been reported, there *is* not even a law in China that would require censorship of words such as "democracy". MSN is simply sucking up here, in one of the worst ways imaginable.

      • Re:The key is Dallas (Score:3, Interesting)

        by daniil ( 775990 ) *
        but it doesn't mean that it's morally OK for them to do it

        And they will care about your concept of morality (or mine, for that matter) because...?

        there *is* not even a law in China that would require censorship of words such as "democracy".

        Another regime that looks good on paper, doesn't it? Except that the written laws do not necessarily hold in some (quite many) countries. The constitution of the Soviet Union, for instance (i'm quoting the 1936 Constitution [politicsforum.org]), states that In conformity with the inte

      • China may have the legal right to do whatever it wants with its citizens, no matter what that is, but it doesn't mean that it's morally OK for them to do it.

        Morally, the PRC should have been overthrown decades ago. Sadly, the citizens of China continue to allow it to exist.

        Let me make one thing clear to everyone here (since a lot of people on Slashdot are quite simple and need things spelled out), I am all for Freedom of Speech. I love my country for the freedoms it provides me, and I wish that everyone

    • Re:The key is Dallas (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Dunbal ( 464142 ) on Friday June 17, 2005 @05:07PM (#12846521)
      China is a sovereign nation and has full rights to what goes on inside their borders. We in the US may not *like* it, but their laws are their laws.

      Why the sudden change of heart? I don't seem to remember THAT little detail stopping US in the past 15 years while being the world's bull^H^H^H^H "policeman" and "taking charge" in Panama, Haiti, Somalia, Afghanistan, Iraq... Or perhaps it's because the Chinese are strong enough to seriously bite the US in the ass that all of a sudden people stop to think? I think a little honesty is needed here.
      • I don't seem to remember THAT little detail stopping US in the past 15 years while being the world's bull^H^H^H^H "policeman" and "taking charge" in Panama, Haiti, Somalia, Afghanistan, Iraq... I think a little honesty is needed here.

        Ok, here it is honestly: In all the cases you listed, people were dying in declared, undeclared, and terrorist wars. The current issue is one of free speech, a "right" that the US founders guaranteed to its citizens. No other country is required to uphold our law, though, so
    • "China is a sovereign nation and has full rights to what goes on inside their borders."

      What rights are you talking about, exactly? They have full powers to enforce censorship, and full legal "rights" according to their own laws, but many would argue, obviously, that the Chinese government has no moral right to censor individuals. To state the obvious again, this is what many people think of immediately when they see the word "rights."

      "If the citizens decided to overthrow their government, then I'm sure
    • China is a sovereign nation and has full rights to what goes on inside their borders. We in the US may not *like* it, but their laws are their laws. No such laws exist to _allow_ for free speech.

      Now I think many slashdotters could go off on a rant here, but I think I'm just going to point in the direction of Wikipedia [wikipedia.org] and the line in there where it reads "An unjust law was in a sense no law at all."

      It's one of the rights of every human being [wikipedia.org] to have free speech. China's government can try and stop China
    • The Republic of China, whose capital is Taipei, has democracy and free speech. Those Maoist insurgents on the mainland are illegitimate. There is only One China!

  • Is the US really that different? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Jason1729 ( 561790 ) on Friday June 17, 2005 @04:56PM (#12846385)
    If I made a cartoon of Snow White, Beauty and the Beast, or any of dozens of other fairy tales that are in the public domain, do you really think I'd get them released with Disney fighting me?

    Is it that different if the government blocks free speech directly or allows companies to do it?

    • If I made a cartoon of Snow White, Beauty and the Beast, or any of dozens of other fairy tales that are in the public domain, do you really think I'd get them released with Disney fighting me?

      Yes I do. Disney does enough, without needing to invent things you think they might do. If you tried to copy the visual representation of the characters they created, then I would expect them to object. But if I go to my local video store and look in the kids section I have seen a couple of differnt Snow White

    • Re:Is the US really that different? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by daviddennis ( 10926 ) <david@amazing.com> on Friday June 17, 2005 @05:05PM (#12846489) Homepage
      Don't be so unoriginal; make up your own characters.

      Really, I think a lot of people who are against copyrights are simply too lazy to make up their own original stuff. Yes, I know, it's harder, but it's not theft of other people's ideas, either.

      For example, many people complain about the extension of copyrights in citing Disney's efforts to retain the copyright to Mickey Mouse. Well, why shouldn't the Disney Corporation retain those rights? They developed and nurtured the character over decades. Why should people who had no stake in the character, who did not create it or make it grow, have the right to use it in, say, advertisements for some widget company?

      And it's a lot different from China. This is an issue of political free speech, of dissent from their regime. If you were in China, you would not be allowed to say the regional equivalent of "Bush is Hitler!" We can say "Bush is Hitler" because this is a free country, and, quite frankly, because Bush isn't actually Hitler.

      You might want to try visiting a totalitarian country someday. Try Cuba; a gorgeous tropical island, wonderful friendly people ... and secret agents in the restaurants listening to your every move.

      America, for all its faults, is nothing at all like a totalitarian country. Those who say it is truly have no clue of what life under tyranny is really like.

      D

      • Re:Is the US really that different? (Score:5, Informative)

        by TheSpoom ( 715771 ) * <slashdot.uberm00@net> on Friday June 17, 2005 @05:13PM (#12846586) Homepage Journal
        It should be noted that Disney made up neither Snow White nor Beauty And The Beast.
        • Well, yes, so I should probably note that the original poster's point was invalid.

          He said that tiresome litigation would ensue if you used the characters Snow White or Beauty and The Beast in a work.

          If you used a likeness too similar to the Disney characters, no doubt you would, but I found a web site that tells the Beauty and the Beast story [balletmet.org], in various versions. The site has obviously not been shut down by Disney, so the original poster's point is invalid.

          Perhaps I should have checked that before repl
      • We can say "Bush is Hitler" because this is a free country, and, quite frankly, because Bush isn't actually Hitler.

        Of course he's not. Everyone knows Hitler had that little mustache.
      • "America, for all its faults, is nothing at all like a totalitarian country. Those who say it is truly have no clue of what life under tyranny is really like."

        Have you lived under tyranny before? If you haven't then I think your statement is a bit of a contradiction, or more bluntly it's blind patriotism.
      • You've never been to Cuba, have you? I have, twice. Although it is safe to say that freedom of speech does not exist, there aren't secret agents listening to your every move. On one tourist tour (you know, the ones where they cover everything up... so you no doubt think), the guide actually criticized some elements of the Revolution. Not harshly or anything, but it's not like he was worried about secret agents of the government hearing him. And this was someone who was put in a position with Western to
        • I've been to Cuba, once. As I say, fascinating place. And certainly, police on every street corner.

          When I made remarks to my Cuban girlfriend in a state-owned restaurant that could be construed as being against the regime, she certainly seemed sincerely frightened, and told me the waiters were spies.

          i suspect the Cuban government knows that if they make the revolution look too perfect, they'll lose credibility. The remarks you mention may well have been part of the script. It's pretty clear from what
      • Well, why shouldn't the Disney Corporation retain those rights? They developed and nurtured the character over decades.

        OK, good point. Remind me, when was the last Mickey Mouse cartoon made?

        America, for all its faults, is nothing at all like a totalitarian country. Those who say it is truly have no clue of what life under tyranny is really like.

        I think a lot of the slashbot groupthink is very much "The sky is falling! The sky is falling!" chicken-little stuff. That being said, I believe it was Karl

      • The OT Answer (Score:3, Insightful)

        by Chagatai ( 524580 )
        I know this conversation is getting off topic, but it comes down to the Constitution of the United States. Patents and Copyrights were outlined in the Constitution to promote the arts and sciences. It also had a (vague) time contraint for the duration of these for a limited time. Now, while many people can see the rationale for Disney wanting to retain its rights to Mickey Mouse and such, does a 70+ year stint comply with the principles set in the Constitution? I say, "No."

    • If I made a cartoon of Snow White, Beauty and the Beast, or any of dozens of other fairy tales that are in the public domain, do you really think I'd get them released with Disney fighting me?

      Um, yes [amazon.com], yes [amazon.com], and yes [amazon.com]?

      I don't know where you've been, but every time Disney releases a new movie to the theaters or video, there are a large number of knockoff movies that hit the streets around the same time.

      It's the same thing with Barbie dolls. Hugh numbers of companies make a fortune off of selling cheap knock
  • MacKinnon managed to use a workaround....

    Which promptly got submitted and /.ed.

    Who are the editors working for, exactly?
  • IF YOU DO NOT SPEAK ENGLISH:

    * You must have a HotMail account...

    Isn't writing these instructions in English a bit like having drive-up ATM's in Braille?
  • Also, if you're in China and try this, if you have problems, questions, or if it doesn't work, please also let us know in the "comments" section. And do so quickly, before you get sent to a "reeducation" camp!

    But seriously, if China wants to censor a website, all they need to do is submit an article to slashdot with link to the site...

  • Gilmore's Law (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Locke2005 ( 849178 ) on Friday June 17, 2005 @05:05PM (#12846486)
    "The Internet treats censorship as damage, and routes around it." -- John Gilmore

    Nice to see Gilmore's Law is still in effect.

  • I Loev Mircosoeft (Score:5, Funny)

    by monsterX ( 642896 ) on Friday June 17, 2005 @05:08PM (#12846526)
    Sorry for the spelling, I had to get past the slashdot profanity filters.
  • For once Microsoft is not the bad guy here. I don't understand why people are faulting Microsoft for cooperating with a government that could keep them out of a huge market. It is not Microsoft that is deciding that these things should be censored, it is China. Microsoft is just trying to make more money, just like every other American corporation would do. It is China that is trying to keep a lid on ideas that would threaten the way of life for those holding power in that country. And for all of those
    • Microsoft is at fault because the responsibility to act morally trumps the responsibility to act lawfully or ethically. Obeying and supporting censorship laws that are morally wrong is repugnant, and the excuse of 'maximizing shareholder value' doesn't hold water. When you act wrongfully, you act wrongfully. When a corporation does this, their shareholders should worry that laws might change, and their corporation might be punished financially for acting immorally.
  • Can it synthesize meaning out of a collection of words appearing in context? Like, instead of writing "democracy" in the blog, could one simply write "a form of government based on popular vote?"

    Or maybe go the 1984 route: everwhere you want to write the word "freedom" write "slavery" instead.

  • Freedom Fighters (Score:4, Insightful)

    by northcat ( 827059 ) on Friday June 17, 2005 @05:21PM (#12846674) Journal
    Oh, poor China is in trouble and the Chinese people are suffering. Don't worry, Americans to the rescue!! Aren't we all glad that we have Americans? They're the reason why everything good on the earth happens.
  • They may well be using simple rule based filtering today, but if the developers are remotely motivated they'll end up with something like Bayesian filtering built into the system. Then it becomes extremely difficult to create workarounds.

  • It's not the least bit surprising the bloggers have just made a big deal out of what the rest of the technology community has known for a decade (China censors the internet, aka the Great Firewall) and society has known for decade(s) (China is a communist regime, hell-bent on censorship to protect itself).

    What disappoints me is that nobody realizes how self-righteous we are. For example- there was an ABC news story recently about China sending in thugs to beat up people and chase them off their land whe

  • Are images allowed? (Score:2, Interesting)

    by mattleaxe ( 699261 )
    What about changing the plain text "freedom" or "democracy" to multi-part images of those words (or the characters that represent them in Chinese) that are lined up? Couldn't that get past their filters? Just a thought.
  • (the following is an actual post after being censored and released for public consumption)
    ~April 17~
    Last year, Zhyang and I went to visit New York in America, the land of xxxxxxx. We had a xxxxxx time! We learned so much about xxxxxxxx and xxxxxxx, we realized it was a xxxxxxx country. We even got so see the Statue of xxxxxxxxxx. I want to tell all my fellow citizens to xxxxxxxx as soon as they get to xxxxxxxx. There, a person will translate English for you and give you xxxxxx. They also know alot

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