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Texas Considers Putting RFID Tags in All Cars 445

An anonymous reader submits "In section 601.507 of Texas HB 2893, the Texas Legislature is considering replacing all vehicle inspection stickers with RFID tags. The legislation also makes provision for the government to use the devices for insurance enforcement. The bill contains limited privacy provisions, but does not seem to exclude other law enforcement usage."
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Texas Considers Putting RFID Tags in All Cars

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  • Remember... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by daveschroeder ( 516195 ) * on Saturday April 02, 2005 @07:49PM (#12122982)
    ...RFID works only at a very close range. The tags themselves are powered by the radio transceivers that in turn detect them, making their range, by nature, very limited. This isn't a global universal tracking mechanism.

    It's a unique vehicle identifier that can be deciphered using the electromagnetic spectrum, similar to the way human eyes or a tollbooth camera might use visible light to view a license plate, another unique vehicle identifier.

    Texas is planning on using it for automated vehicle registration and toll booths (relevant bill excerpt below).

    Sounds like a perfectly reasonable use of technology to me. Are we to now fear any new legislation that doesn't specifically and explicitly "exclude [...] law enforcement usage", even if utterly irrelevant?

    This may sound trite, but:

    RFID != bad

    Anything - including a license plate or an old fashioned inspection sticker - can be abused for illegitimate purposes or to abridge someone's privacy. And keep in mind that "illegitimate purposes" is awfully subjective. But trampling - or spreading FUD about - technology is not the answer.

    Relevant section:

    Sec. 601.507. SPECIAL INSPECTION CERTIFICATES.
    (a) Commencing not later than January 1, 2006, the department shall
    issue or contract for the issuance of special inspection
    certificates to be affixed to motor vehicles that are inspected and
    found to be in proper and safe condition under Chapter 548.
    (b) An inspection certificate under this section must
    contain a tamper-resistant transponder, and at a minimum, be
    capable of storing:
    (1) the transponder's unique identification number;
    and
    (2) the make, model, and vehicle identification number
    of the vehicle to which the certificate is affixed.
    (c) In addition, the transponder must be compatible with:
    (1) the automated vehicle registration and
    certificate of title system established by the Texas Department of
    Transportation; and
    (2) interoperability standards established by the
    Texas Department of Transportation and other entities for use of
    the system of toll roads and toll facilities in this state.
    • That is all. Er, actually, could I get a +5 insightful? Just wondering.
    • Re:Remember... (Score:4, Insightful)

      by B'Trey ( 111263 ) on Saturday April 02, 2005 @07:56PM (#12123035)
      It works at a range sufficient to work in toll booths. What's to prevent the state from putting up a reader on the street corner? On every street corner? On every mile marker sign on the highway?

      Why would they want to do that? Well, how about crime fighting, to start? If a house is broken into, they have an instant record of every car that's been into the neighborhood. How about speeding tickets? If you go from one mile marker to the next in less than 60 seconds, you're going more than 60 miles per hour.

      But, even if it might help catch a few burglers, do you really want the state tracking every location where you drive your vehicle?
      • Re:Remember... (Score:2, Insightful)

        The funny thing is, I actually included a sarcastic disclaimer on the topic you refer to, but I thought the excerpt was clear cut enough to stave off any absurd police state fantasies.

        Anyone committing a crime can remove the inspection sticker if they wish, just as they might remove their plates. What's to prevent the state from putting up cameras on the street corner? On ever street corner? On every mile marker sign on the highway? (Cue "they already are in some cities!!" response.)

        I guess if you inheren
        • Re:Remember... (Score:5, Insightful)

          by EEBaum ( 520514 ) on Saturday April 02, 2005 @08:14PM (#12123158) Homepage
          Anyone committing a crime can remove the inspection sticker if they wish, just as they might remove their plates.

          Indeed. And in this case they would track and detain all vehicles in the area EXCEPT the one they're actually looking for. Sounds like a great system, no?
      • Gosh, I don't know. What's to prevent the state from forcing us all into labor camps?

        Wait a second -- that's ridiculous, you say. Of course it is, but not much more so than your post.

        Nobody's talking about constant state monitoring of your vehicle's position. Where in the bill does it say that? Yes, I guess they could, in theory, track your vehicle's location, but they're not doing that.

        Save the outrage for when someone actually proposes your scheme.
        • Re:Remember... (Score:5, Insightful)

          by bnenning ( 58349 ) on Saturday April 02, 2005 @11:11PM (#12124185)
          Nobody's talking about constant state monitoring of your vehicle's position. Where in the bill does it say that? Yes, I guess they could, in theory, track your vehicle's location, but they're not doing that.

          And the income tax was originally 3%, and those who warned it might one day reach 10% were told they were paranoid. And your Social Security number was never to be used for identification purposes. The slippery slope is not always a fallacy [ucla.edu].
        • Wrong (Score:4, Insightful)

          by Safety Cap ( 253500 ) on Sunday April 03, 2005 @12:11AM (#12124437) Homepage Journal
          Yes, I guess they could, in theory, track your vehicle's location, but they're not doing that.
          In Houston, EACH AND EVERY car that has a transponder is tracked [houstontranstar.org] when it is on the freeway.

          The point was that the transponders were originally sold as a way to auto-pay on the toll roads [eztagstore.com], not as a tracking device for anything else.

          Now that "mission creep" has happened, as with so many other government programs, it would be trivial for local law enforcement to track any "EZ Tag"-equipped car for any reason, or no reason at all. Want to fill the city coffers? Start auto-generating tickets for any vehicle that exceeds the speed limit [houstontranstar.org].

          I guess while you were not looking, they went and took another of your "rights." Enjoy those you have left.

      • Re:Remember... (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Anonymous Luddite ( 808273 ) on Saturday April 02, 2005 @08:41PM (#12123339)
        >> On every mile marker sign on the highway?

        that's the only problem I have with this really. It would be so easy to turn into a cash cow

        Imagine this for a minute:
        An RFID tag in your car gets read at mile-marker 100.
        It gets read again at mile-marker 101 57 seconds later.

        elapsed time against known distance==speeding ticket in the mail...
        • It seems that you have more of a problem with obeying the law than you do with RFID.
        • The states could already enforce the speed limits much more strictly if they only wanted to. Fact is, if they did, there would be a rebellion, not to mention the immense lost productivity due to the traffic slow down.
      • Re:Remember... (Score:3, Interesting)

        by fm6 ( 162816 )

        What's to prevent the state from putting up a reader on the street corner? On every street corner? On every mile marker sign on the highway?

        The same thing that prevents them putting laser license plate scanners [techdirt.com] on every street corner: cost, privacy laws, and litigation-hungry lawyers.

        You're right to be concerned about your privacy, but there's already plenty of tech out there for tracking your car. If you don't want cops to spy on you, you need to make sure there are legal safeguards in place, not worry

      • "What's to prevent the state from putting up a reader on the street corner? On every street corner? On every mile marker sign on the highway?"

        A.) The sheer number of street corners and marker signs.

        B.) The communications facilities to transmit this data to somewhere useful.

        C.) The processing power to do something useful with all this data.

        D.) The lack of benefit to warrant that much expense.

        "do you really want the state tracking every location where you drive your vehicle?"

        Ask anybody who's had the
      • RFIDs aren't necessarily passive. They could easily be made powered. They're passive in most applications because the problems introduced by powering them are usually related to the necessity of small size for the application.

        We're talking about vehicles here, which have their own power source. It would be easy to put RFID into vehicles that are powered transmitters. Even if that power is limited to milliwatts, the range is increased drastically. The implications of this are huge.

        Fortunately, RFID can be
      • The best way to avoid getting a ticket is still to obey the posted speed limit.
    • Re:Remember... (Score:4, Interesting)

      by Doc Ruby ( 173196 ) on Saturday April 02, 2005 @08:13PM (#12123149) Homepage Journal
      It's not the RFIDs. It's not even the ubiquitous readers that Texas will install along roads. It is, as you point out, the Texas police state that will invade our privacy. Just like when Sir Giuliani [thestate.com] got the (RFID) EZ-Pass installed in NYC, promising that tollbooth records would be protected by requiring probable cause, court order, etc - but turned out that any lawyer with $50 could get a copy from the cops. The RFID tech is relevant because the RFID industry is lobbying these lying politicians to buy their products, with private promises of easy privacy invasion, and public lies.
      • Re:Remember... (Score:5, Insightful)

        by daveschroeder ( 516195 ) * on Saturday April 02, 2005 @08:19PM (#12123184)
        The RFID tech is relevant because the RFID industry is lobbying these lying politicians to buy their products, with private promises of easy privacy invasion, and public lies.

        You really think that's literally what's going on? That politicians are just licking their lips at the prospect of dismantling everyone's privacy, and the first thing on Texas' minds is abusing this tool, and the tollbooth business is just a charade? And do you honestly think that these backroom deals you envision include sleazy promises of how easy it will be to endlessly abridge the privacy of the working class (thereby solidifying their power structure, of course)?

        That's an awfully sad view of the world.

        The RFID technology itself is hardly relevant. Any other identification mechanism can be abused.
        • Re:Remember... (Score:4, Interesting)

          by Doc Ruby ( 173196 ) on Saturday April 02, 2005 @08:28PM (#12123243) Homepage Journal
          It's an awfully sad world - that's why I keep my personal corner well patrolled, and quite happy. I don't know why you think that the politicians (especially in Texas, of all places) aren't doing what their bribes^Wcontributions pay for. Isn't Texan #1, Tom Delay, facing (yet another) ethics crisis, this time over his illegal corporate sponsorships? I know Wisconsin isn't the cesspool that Texas is, but we're talking about Texas.

          Your kind of denial is typical, portraying the the abuse as so extreme as to be unthinkable. When it's really just business as usual, without all the demonic trappings: sell out the public, starting with our privacy, for corporate gain and political power. Or couldn't you bring yourself to read the part about how Giuliani has already perpetrated this scam here in NYC?
          • Do police or government have any role in a society based on rule of law? I know you'll likely laugh out loud at this, but who would you call if you required police or other emergency assistance? What entities would run the mechanisms of our government?

            Or is your position - and I'm asking this seriously - one of eternal vigilance and doubt of the government, as a check and balance of sorts? I mean, I'm not saying there is no corruption or abuse of power that occurs in government, but it's not all evil and m
            • Re:Remember... (Score:3, Interesting)

              by Doc Ruby ( 173196 )
              First, I'll let you in on the secret of the "middle" (as in "fallacy of the excluded middle"). The world that you and I share is not some hellish torture chamber, with diabolical corporate politicans scheming 24/7 to annihilate each of us in the most humiliating personal destruction, after extracting maximum profit from enslaving us, the hypnotized, ignorant masses. Neither is it a safe republican democracy, where politicians work for the people, protecting us from corporate exploitation. Somewhere in the m
              • I'm well aware there's middle ground, and that is where the majority of circumstances and situations exist. I just was hoping that you'd acknowledge it.

                My position is to not distrust technology, and not automatically distrust any person or entity unless it is deserved. I'm considerably well aware of various abuses by government at all levels. However, I have faith in governmental entities to, on the whole, generally behave appropriately. This does not mean that there are not egregious instances of inapprop
              • Kudos to you. This is the most insightful, succint treatment I've ever read regarding competing self-interests. IMHO and in my experience, this is the way the world works.

                I'd mod you up but alas I'm out of points.

            • Re:Remember... (Score:4, Insightful)

              by Waffle Iron ( 339739 ) on Saturday April 02, 2005 @09:19PM (#12123569)
              Do police or government have any role in a society based on rule of law?

              Yes, they do. But the role they have does not include automatically tracking and logging the movements of ordinary citizens going about their daily lives.

          • I agree with your sentiment, but I think that while corruption is always prevalent, it's always going to lead towards the politician gaining money and/or power. Dismantling civil liberties doesn't inherently provide those rewards, and I can't think of a compelling reason why it would in this case. Perhaps politicians would want to sell the information gathered through invasion of privacy, but that's just speculation.

            Greed is the root of all kinds of other evils--it doesn't care if you think you're free o

            • Privacy is one basic defense from government control of the individual. Sure, politicians get paid by privacy-invading tech companies for more business on the public account. And the extra invasions offer more avenues of control for the politicians, and the police/lawyers who repay the favors when they can. Politicians don't sell the info they get from their privileged vantage point; they use it to control enemies and the masses. Or they just amass it on principle, where it gets cracked, leaked, and used ag
          • Re:Remember... (Score:3, Interesting)

            by TheoMurpse ( 729043 )
            To be fair, Texas does have Ron Paul [house.gov] as well. Consistently votes for citizens' privacy, votes for legalization of marijuana, and pushes for a Constitutional Federal Budget. He's pretty much the only politician I trust.
    • RFID works only at a very close range

      False. Standard RFID readers work only at close range, but it is possible to construct long-range RFID readers. Furthermore, if it can be used for toolbooth enforcement, then it can be read in normal traffic situations.

      similar to the way human eyes or a tollbooth camera might use visible light to view a license plate, another unique vehicle identifier.

      The information stored on a license plate is human readable, the information stored in an RFID chip is not. Furt
      • False. Standard RFID readers work only at close range, but it is possible to construct long-range RFID readers. Furthermore, if it can be used for toolbooth enforcement, then it can be read in normal traffic situations.

        Um, where did I say it couldn't...?

        And "normal traffic situations" IS "close range". Even hundreds of feet (which would actually be more like tens) is "close range". This isn't some kind of wide-scale tracking system, nor is it intended to be.

        But, yes, automatic optical license plate rea
    • I applaud the parent poster for his insight. Sometimes visibility of information is good.

      Let's consider for a moment. You are driving down the highway in thousands of pounds of machinery at 65 miles an hour with your most beloved people in the world. You are doing this with thousands of other people each in their thousands of pounds of machinery traveling at high speeds. How would you feel about the following:

      * Some of the drivers that are near you and your family have had their license revoked
      * Som

      • Let's consider for a moment. You are driving down the highway in thousands of pounds of machinery at 65 miles an hour with your most beloved people in the world. You are doing this with thousands of other people each in their thousands of pounds of machinery traveling at high speeds.

        Wow. How ever do we manage to do this every single day without automated monitoring and tracking? All that freedom that can only be abused. How frightening.
        • Wow. How ever do we manage to do this every single day without automated monitoring and tracking? All that freedom that can only be abused. How frightening.
          Ok, I am with you here. Insofar as automating this does accidentally express the emergent property of monitorability and trackability, this is indeed a bad idea.

          What if the RFID does not provide personal data, but instead can only be used to verify insurance/vehicle permits and locate your vehicle?
  • by Sheetrock ( 152993 ) on Saturday April 02, 2005 @07:51PM (#12122992) Homepage Journal
    Your license plate.

    This takes very little away, but think about what it might add: the ability to pay for tolls, gas, or parking meters without swiping a card. You have to admit that'd be pretty cool.

    • "This takes very little away, but think about what it might add: the ability to pay for tolls, gas, or parking meters without swiping a card. You have to admit that'd be pretty cool."

      Kinda like income tax witholding, you won't even hardly notice all those hours of wages getting sucked out of your life. And what's a few more pennies on a monthly statement when the people hired by your representatives decide they need a few more bucks.

      yes, sure it is pretty cool... for scum sucking bureaucrats!
    • > This takes very little away, but think about what it might add:
      > the ability to pay for tolls, gas, or parking meters without
      > swiping a card.

      Cool. So when a thief takes off with my car, they pay for gas, pay for tolls, pay to park, all under my account. When the car is discovered burnt out & dumped, there's no trail going back through the thief's finances to see who paid for gas in my now useless burnt out car.

      Cool.
    • by gidds ( 56397 ) <slashdot@gidd[ ]e.uk ['s.m' in gap]> on Saturday April 02, 2005 @08:27PM (#12123241) Homepage
      Well, yes...

      But IMO the issue isn't really electronic vs visual ID. The issue is electronic vs human reading of that ID.

      Up till relatively recently, a numberplate could be read by any human, but not by an automated machine. So it could be easily checked when really necessary (e.g. when stopped by the police, when photographed leaving a petrol station without paying, when photographed by a speeding camera, &c). But it wasn't checked as a matter of routine.

      Now, though, there are machines which can look at a numberplate and automatically recognise the vehicle ID. And there are RFID chips which can be automatically read by machine. Both of these have a similar effect: car IDs can be read as a matter of course, and checked against whatever information they want to.

      Arguably, when used to stop cars which have no tax or insurance, that could be beneficial. But would you want your husband/wife to be able to subpoena records of all your movements in a divorce case, say? ("You claimed to have been working late at the office, but your car was recorded as having driven to your girlfriend's house at 5.27pm that evening!") And if the system is widely used, how easy might it be for people to gain unauthorised access? You have only to look at any detective novel to see how people can have good, legitimate reasons for wanting to conceal their movements. And it'd be a gift for stalkers and paparazzi...

      Here in the UK, we already have automated numberplate recognition, not just for speed cameras and red-light cameras, but also for the recognising cars entering the London congestion zone, and sending out appropriate bills. (And I gather there's a good number of people who were billed incorrectly...) There's also a new type of speed camera, which recognises your numberplate as you pass fixed locations on motorways, and issues a speeding ticket if your average speed between two such points exceeds the limit. (Which is fair, but worrying for the privacy implications.)

      So yes, I agree with your conclusion that RFID doesn't seem to have any intrinsic dangers over and above those which are here already...

    • License plates can't normally be silently and undetectably changed in seconds by flipping a switch. RFID tags pretty much can.

      And just imagine the fun you could have with the ability to make the person in the next car over pay for your tolls, fuel, parking, or whatever, just by duplicating their RFID signal. Virtually undetectable petty fraud!
  • by Ph33r th3 g(O)at ( 592622 ) on Saturday April 02, 2005 @07:53PM (#12123005)
    I don't know what could have happened to it, officer! Must have been the same stray electromagnetism that wiped the stripe on my license!
    • by sacrilicious ( 316896 ) <qbgfynfu.opt@recursor.net> on Saturday April 02, 2005 @08:08PM (#12123122) Homepage
      I don't know what could have happened to it, officer! Must have been the same stray electromagnetism that wiped the stripe on my license!

      Might even have been one of those banditos who runs through parking lots de-activating all of the tags.

    • by wowbagger ( 69688 ) on Saturday April 02, 2005 @08:09PM (#12123128) Homepage Journal
      "Very well. Here's your ticket for failing to have proper vehicle registration - you can show up for court on a week from Thursday if you want to try to fight it, or you can pay the $100 fine. Either way, you will need to get a new registration tag within three business days for $50, and show up at a vehicle inspection station to get it checked out - failure to comply will cause your driver's license to be revoked.

      Now, about your driver's license - you need to get THAT replaced within three business days as well - you'll need to go down to the DMV for that, and it will cost you $35.

      Good day, drive safely, buckle up, and, uhhh, try to avoid those "stray electromagnetic fields" in the future, sir."
  • by pla ( 258480 ) on Saturday April 02, 2005 @07:54PM (#12123012) Journal
    Does anyone have a really big microwave oven I could put my car in for a few minutes?

    Hmm, I wonder if a radar gun at very close range would suffice...

    Well, the old "whack it over and over with a rubber mallet" would work, I expect. Break the chip but not the windshield and hopefully not the sticker itself.


    AHA! I've got it...

    A Tesla coil! Put 200kv across the sucker and see how well it fares.


    Nevermind, problem solved. Go about your cries of doom and gloom, everyone.
  • Do you have OnStar? (Score:5, Informative)

    by lecithin ( 745575 ) on Saturday April 02, 2005 @07:56PM (#12123027)
    If you do, every place you go is documented. Didn't sign up for it but still have the equipment? Doesn't matter, you are still being tracked. Think that is bad? OnStar equipment includes a phone.. Could somebody record what you are doing without you knowing? I'd bet it is possible.
    • by Jah-Wren Ryel ( 80510 ) on Saturday April 02, 2005 @10:17PM (#12123874)
      OnStar equipment includes a phone.. Could somebody record what you are doing without you knowing? I'd bet it is possible.

      More than possible, it has already been done. The FBI got the Mercedes equivalent of On-Star to route a suspect's telemetry to them first. They remotely turned on the "phone" and listened to all the conversations in the car.

      We know about it because Mercedes took the FBI to court over it after the monitoring had extended for more than a month. Mercedes's problem with it was that if there was a real emergency, the FBI's wiretap prevented normal emergency services from being provided to the car owner who had paid for them.

      The courts ruled in favor of Mercedes, without addressing the privacy issues at all, instead basing their opinion pretty much on the issue of the wiretap interefering with normal usage.

      Here's an article [com.com] that summarizes it pretty well. The part they missed is that the car vendor in question was Mercedes. I read in a different article at the time that while the company's name was sealed or otherwise not made public, the lawyer for the auto company in the suit was public knowledge and it was also public knowledge that his firm primarily worked for Mercedes with few, if any, other auto manufacturer clients. Thus the inference to Mercedes.
  • When they realise the manufacturers, insurance companies and the police all want the same thing and are prepared to have a fuck off transmitter built into the car at the buyers expense that can be configured at the dealers.
  • Privacy vs Safety (Score:5, Interesting)

    by purduephotog ( 218304 ) <`moc.tibroni' `ta' `hcsrih'> on Saturday April 02, 2005 @08:00PM (#12123057) Homepage Journal
    Lets see how many Trolls vs Insightful's I'll get on this post...

    1) This is a great idea- AS LONG AS there is a recorded method for access that is timestamped and GPS'd by the police department for querying the users information (ie, after pulled over but not before).

    2) This is a BAD idea because, as has been demonstrated with the SpeedPass(tm) the encryption routines thought secure have been easily broken by dedicated hardware. Access to the db by walking out with a copy of it would result in very interesting privacy implications.

    Now, I'm a fan of the black-box in a car because should I get into an accident and die, I'd really like my loved ones to know whether or not I was being a responsible individual or an asshole. And frankly, given the number of total incompetent drivers that are apparently granted licenses to operate 2500lb guided missiles, I think the black box has got a better chance of defending me in an accident than attacking me.

    RFID tags provide a method of enforcing insurance- do you know what happens if an uninsured motorist hits you and does damage? You're fucked. Totally, completely, fucked. It would have been better for you to wrap your car (and yourself) around a tree than to get hit by an uninsured motorist.

    First, your insurance skyrockets because there's no one to recoup the cost from- guess what, you're fucked.
    Second, there's no one to go after for pain and suffering (and I suffered for 5 months after getting T-boned by an asshole that ran a stopsign)- thats alot of physical therapy and chiropractic work to get your neck to move in the right direction without needles of pain shooting everywhere.
    Finally, there's the whole issue of 'submitted claims' that then follows you around for 7 years. It doesn't matter that your only fault was existing in that particular place at that particular time, it'll follow you on your record and probably influence such things as your credit report and interest rates.

    A much better solution would be to simply confiscate the car of a driver that was uninsured or driving illegally, and if it was someone else's car require a 250$ or 500$ fine, doubling each time the car was 'caught'.

    But I guess that's my opinion... someone that's had a perfect driving record, dodged into oncoming traffic to avoid hitting a little girl that ran into an intersection (great mother), been t-boned by a moron, and had 2 friends killed by drunk drivers with no insurance.

    • God help us if someone breaks the chip's encryption. Hackers could gain access to your vehicle's make and model, valuable information that can only otherwise be determined by taking a brief look at your vehicle's exterior.
      • Exactly. This is why my car has been painted with non radar reflective paint, has lots of funny new angles and requires the processing power power of a mainframe to keep it on the road, two if I turn the CD player on. Fortunately though I only drive it at night where all that black loses its impact...


  • Every car will have an RFID tag and every police cruiser will have a reader. You won't dare drive if you've got a warrant, no insurance, or some other reason for the officer to talk to you. It'll get sold as an efficiency thing and we'll just have to get used to it, warts, mistaken stops, and all.

    We're looking at doing this in Nebraska, but its coming from a large dealership wishing to ease customer service - pull in and the service drive guys already know the vehicle's service history.
  • Forgery (Score:5, Interesting)

    by oman_ ( 147713 ) on Saturday April 02, 2005 @08:10PM (#12123131) Homepage
    How hard is it going to be to forge these things? Once the police start relying on this stuff the tech savvy criminals are going to have it easy. Car flies through a toll at 90mph? Don't need cameras anymore...we have the rfid of the car. (it HAS to be the right car because the company that sold us this stuff said it can't be fooled... )

    • It would be foolish to deploy this and this alone. I'd be pretty pissed if they spent taxpayer money on this plan and then didn't collect physical verification when it was readily available.

      Of course, we're talking about the government of one of the largest states in the union here. Stranger things have happened.
    • "How hard is it going to be to forge these things?"

      Doesn't matter. There's still the whole issue of who was driving the car. Seperate topic.
    • Driving is NOT a right, but a PRIVILEGE.
    • Privileges can be revoked if you abuse them.
    • People driving on PUBLIC roads have absolutely, positively NO EXPECTATION OF PRIVACY.
    • The thousand of lifes lost to careless and/or stupid drivers most definitely warrant that public authorities to the utmost to increase road safety.
    • Rules of the road are implemented to maximize road safety. Including a 50 km/h speed limit on a 10 lane-wide ultrastraight strip mall at two in the morning on a clear night with no other traffic.
    • Police find ticketing drivers a demeaning task, so they will only do it when pushed or shoved.
    • Therefore, it is only logical that the State implements automatic means of enforcing road rules, such as red-light cameras, radar cameras; tracking vehicle position can also be used to punish speeding.
    • The next logical step would be a black-box that also records what the driver has seen [drivecam.com].
    • That black box can be used to exactly determine the blame for road accidents, thus darwinizing bad drivers out of the roads.
    • With all the above said, there is nothing wrong, illegal, immoral and unethical to have the black boxes used to automatically ticket bad drivers. Aircraft have been thusly monitored for generations; if it's good for the goose, it's good for the gander.
    • by YrWrstNtmr ( 564987 ) on Saturday April 02, 2005 @08:33PM (#12123286)
      Driving is NOT a right, but a PRIVILEGE.

      Agreed. Totally.

      With all the above said, there is nothing wrong, illegal, immoral and unethical to have the black boxes used to automatically ticket bad drivers.

      "The black box says you crossed the solid yellow line in a residential area. $150 fine"
      "But I was avoiding a little kid chasing a ball!"
      "Too bad. Prove it."

      In the city I live in, they are getting ready to put in a bunch of red light and speeding cameras. You know what the most reported effect of this will be? "The city will get approx. $X.X million per year in revenue." Not the safety aspect, not reducing speeding. Money. Now...this is partially the fault of the news reporting agencies, but I have heard little else besides the money aspect.

    • On just the first four points alone would be important. The driving public needs this info pounded into its collective brain constantly. They should be put on all drive exams to be taken every 5 to 10 years (stop this automatic license renewal nonsense).
    • by Anonymous Coward
      >> # Rules of the road are implemented to maximize road safety. Including a 50 km/h speed limit on a 10 lane-wide ultrastraight strip mall at two in the morning on a clear night with no other traffic.

      I say bullshit. Rules of the road are implemented to maximize revenue. Meaningless trafic regulations, arbitrary speed limits with no sound engineering behind, and speedtraps are designed just for that.

      >> Police find ticketing drivers a demeaning task, so they will only do it when pushed or shoved
    • GOVERING is also a privelege, a resposibilty, not a right as some seem to think.

      If he boneheads keep it up, they will lose it sooner than later.
    • by Kingstrum ( 169196 ) on Saturday April 02, 2005 @09:44PM (#12123694)
      Hmmm, where to begin...

      * Driving, per say, isn't a right; however, freedom to travel without producing papers is. Read up on the actual law for a "driver's license"...it's not as bad as the conspiracy nuts make it out to be, but it's not what you think it is either. Much like the "opt-out Social Security System" that seems to be pretty darn mandatory.

      * Driving on public roads doesn't automagically negate your rights...especially when "We the People" are "The Public" and paid for those roads.

      * We apparently have different definitions of "public safety". Preserving such safety does not warranty *ANY ONE* to violate said rights. Hence, the cops not being able to roust you on the road just because you're on it ("Sir, we pulled you over because we don't like your face."). Personally, I'm all for such things as "Kill someone while DUI, get a bullet on the spot", but I'm a capricious bastard that way.

      * Rules of the road are implemented as any other civil rule of law: by whomever is in power at the time for whatever gain they may get from it (including, but not limited to, personal sexual gratification from knowing they can make others do what they want.) We had 55MPH held over from the '70s to appease the MADD loonies instead of something based on actual science and current socio-political circumstances.

      * Some police find it a demeaning task; others fall into the above catagory of power-trippers.

      * So basically you'll be all for writing automatic tickets when you pass a given 1/4 mile stretch randomly chosen by the state? No appeal, no ability to explain that you were going 8MPH over the posted limit to get around a dangerous driver? These days Big Brother gets just as much of a whacking as Nazis, but it really does push to a very scary future, don't you think?

      * Under no legal standard that I'm aware of is anyone required to be a mobile snitch for the law. For other victims of American Education who didn't bother to get better informed later: our system of law is *POSTSCRIPTIVE* not *PRESCRIPTIVE*. "Innocent until proven guilty" means "do whatever you like, but if we catch you, your ass is grass". Much like the Ten Commandments, you're free to be an asshole, but you can't whine later that you didn't know there was a punishment for getting caught.

      * Planes are a lot different from cars. My car can't wind up in your living room unless there's a road nearby. My plane can destroy your remote log cabin and you'd never know it until someone contacted you. The ability to cause harm is much more limited and requirements for operation are way lower for a car. Applying a blanket standard for wildly different things is rather silly and, well, unsafe for the public, eh?

      Time to stop pandering to the narrow-minded nimrod special interests and actually excercise some Freedom for a change.

      Kingstrum

      "He had that rare weird electricity about him -- that extremely wild and heavy presence that you only see in a person who has abandon all hope of ever behaving 'normally.'"
      -- Hunter S. Thompson, "Fear and Loathing '72"
  • All this really does, assuming they don't add annoying additional data, is make a license plate readable by machines. Heck they could even attach it to the license plate tags for convenience. Make distribution easier.
  • Hey ... (Score:3, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 02, 2005 @08:28PM (#12123245)
    I bet I can defeat this by wrapping the car in aluminum foil ...
  • by erroneus ( 253617 ) on Saturday April 02, 2005 @08:28PM (#12123246) Homepage
    Now imagine driving down the freeway, the exit sign above seems to have a flashing light (dramatic effect, not needed for RFID readers) and within seconds you are pulled over because (a) your insurance lapsed, (b) your registration has expired and (c) oh yeah, you're not wearing your seatbelt... got some unpaid parking tickets too.

    I have mixed feelings about it.... I laugh when it happens to someone else, I cry when it happens to me. You know, life is pretty tough and law is pretty unforgiving. But when financial times are hard, sometimes you can skip along with some luck until things get better. I'm having good times now, but I've had some bad ones where insurance and registration wasn't as important as gasoline and rent. (And for the record, I don't drink, smoke or otherwise waste money recreationally all that often and never did.) The thought of having an almost robotic police force out there pulling people over getting the most income possible from fines and such is a little creepy.

    On the other hand, if it were forbidden to pull someone over for trivial offenses (insurance and registration for example -- they could mail out a "warning letter" and make you pay postage or something... that would be reasonable) but say, "Amber Alert" type stuff, someone with a warrant for a violent crime, stolen car(!) and stuff like that I'd be down with. Is there any hope for sanity in the application of new technology in government?
  • There are thousands of traffic cameras all over the US now. You are in essence tracked to the intersection in most cities, although admittedly RFID could enable realtime tracking...which oddly enough some people pay for with LoJack.
  • Personally, I think the idea is good, though it has potential for abuse.
    Once such example could be automated issuing of speeding tickets. There are some towns and villages that people know to be speed traps. Two examples of these from the news are New Rome [enquirer.com] and Macks Creek [washingtontimes.com]. I can picture a small town or village like one of these places investing in a pair of readers. Install them on the local highway, and calculate how much time a car should take to travel between these points. If a vehicle goes fas
  • Hmm... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by poofyhairguy82 ( 635386 ) on Saturday April 02, 2005 @08:41PM (#12123335) Journal
    I live in Texas and I'm not to afraid. Why? Because in order to abuse these tags, it will cost money. Money to build speed traps, or money to equip cop cars. Since the taxes are lower in Texas, most deparments don't have enough money for staff, let alone new devices (I can't tell you how many times I driven through a small town in Texas lately where an empty cop car is parked at the nearest intersection because they can't pay to man it...). Only a in a few areas (suburbs, retirement places such as Williamson County) where the local rich blue hairs throw tons of money away to get yonger people like myself off the streets will these new things be abused. And in those places it doesn't matter anyway because the ultraconservative elected judges let the cops do whatever they want anyway- a little RFID is nothing compared to those heat guns some Texas cops still use (despite a supreme court order saying no). With those cops, you are either favored (rich, white, "good ole boy") or your screwed, the laws that are in place to unforce this are mostly irrelevent. The rest of the state will get techonology to use RFID twenty years from now when every state does it. It took till the 80's for school segrigation to end in some parts of Texas for crying out loud!
  • by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 02, 2005 @08:41PM (#12123337)
    TOP SECRET FACT:Most modern cars have tracking transponders!

    Spy transmission chips embedded in tires that can be read REMOTELY while driving.

    A secret initiative exists to track all funnel-points on interstates and US borders for car tire ID transponders (RFID chips embedded in the tire).

    Yup. My brother works on them.

    The us gov T.R.E.A.D. act (which passed) makes it illegal to sell new passenger cars lacking untamperable RFID in the tires.

    Your tires have a passive coil with 64 to 128 bit serial number emitter in them! (AIAG B-11 ADC v3.0) . A particular frequency energizes it enough so that a receiver can read its little ROM. A ROM which in essence is your GUID for your TIRE. Multiple tires do not confuse the readers. Its almost identical to all "FastPass" "SpeedPass" technologies you see on gasoline keychain dongles and commuter windshield sticker-chips. The US gov has secretly started using these chips to track people.

    Its kind of like FBI "Taggants" in fertilizer and "Taggants" in Gasoline and Bullets, and Blackpowder. But these car tire transponder Ids are meant to actively track and trace movement of your car.

    Taggant research papers :
    http://www.wws.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/byteserv.prl/ ~ota/disk3/1980/8017/801705.PDF [princeton.edu]
    (remove spaces in url from slashcode if needed)

    I am not making this up. Melt down a high end Firestone, or Bridgestone tire and go through the bits near the rim (sometimes at base of tread) and you will locate the transmitter (similar to 'grain of rice' pet ids and Mobile SpeedPass, but not as high tech as the tollbooth based units). Sokymat LOGI 160, and Sokymat LOGI 120 transponder buttons are just SOME of the transponders found in modern high end car tires. The AIAG B-11 Tire tracking standard is now implemented for all 3rd party transponder manufactures [covered below].

    It is for QA and to prevent fraud and "car theft", but the US Customs service uses it in Canada to detect people who swap license plates on cars when doing a transport of contraband on a mule vehicle that normally has not logged enough hours across the border. The customs service and FBI do not yet talk about this, and are starting using it soon.

    Photos of chips before molded deep into tires! :

    http://www.sokymat.com/sp/applications/tireid.html [sokymat.com]

    (slashdot ruins links, so you will have to remove the ASCII space it insertess usually into the url above to get to the shocking info and photos on the enbedded LOGI 160 chips that the us gov scans when you cross mexican and canadian borders.)

    You never heard of it either because nobody moderates on slashdot anymore and this is probably +0 still. It has also never appeared in print before and is very secret.

    Californias Fastpass is being upgraded to scan ALL responding car tires in future years upcoming. I-75 may get them next in rural funnel points in Ohio.

    The photo of the secret prototype WAS at :
    http://www.tadiran-telematics.com/products6.html [tadiran-telematics.com] ...but the link finally died in July 2004 and the new location does not have a photo of a RFID bridge underpass collector. But does discuss thhe toll booth RFID uses...

    http://www.telematics-wireless.com/site/index1.php ?ln=en&main_id=33 [telematics-wireless.com]

    but the fact is... YOU PROBABLY ALREADY HAVE A RADIO TRANSPONDER not counting your digital cell phone which is routinely silently pulsed in CA bay area each rush hour morning unless turned off (consult Wired Magazine Expose article). Those data point pulses are used by NSA on occasions.

    The us FBI with NRO/NSA blessin
    • by Fookin ( 652988 ) <fookin&gmail,com> on Saturday April 02, 2005 @11:41PM (#12124331)
      From Zebra [zebra.com]

      What are the implications of RFID for automotive suppliers?

      There are no industry-based automotive mandates out there today. Perhaps the only exception to this is the Tire TREAD Act in which RFID is specified as a method of identifying tires supplied to OEMs. The U.S. Congress passed the TREAD (Transportation, Recall, Enhancement, Accountability and Documentation) Act after the Firestone/Ford Explorer issues emerged. The act mandates that carmakers closely track tires from the 2004 model year on, so they can be recalled if there is a problem. RFID tracking could be available for the 2005 model year. Michelin revealed that it has begun fleet testing of an RFID transponder embedded in its tires to enable them to be tracked electronically. After it completes testing, which will likely last 18 months, Michelin plans to begin offering automakers the option of purchasing tires with embedded transponders.

      But there is no reason why automotive manufacturers and suppliers should not adopt RFID to achieve supply chain improvements just like any other industry.

      --------------

      Any chance this isn't as heinous a plot as parent believes?
  • Are they on the plate [like DE]?

    Or inside the window?

    I know in Philly there were some big problems with people getting their license plates cut up and the inspection stickers stolen.

    How hard is it to reprogram an RFID tag? It seems like another opportunity for identity theft...

  • by hikerhat ( 678157 ) on Saturday April 02, 2005 @09:06PM (#12123495)
    I live in Colorado, and here they _require_ tags that operate in roughly the 10^14 - 10^15 Hz range (note, that isn't far from X-Ray range. Could they be dangerous? Industry funded studies probably say no, but who can believe those?) Not only does this allow police to identify the vehicle _even if you are not committing a crime_, but it is relatively easy for non-government officials, and even large corporations to read these types of tags. Privacy was absolutely not taken into account when these tags were designed.

    I'm working on an embedded Gnu/Linux device that will be roughly 304.8mm wide x 152.4mm tall that can be mounted on the back of the vehicle to prevent readers from picking up the signals from the tags. I'll post details to this thread when it is ready.

    I recommend all Colorado citizens contact [state.co.us] and complain to their representatives tonight!

  • Don't forget that Texas has joined the working group that wants to track every cars millage so they can send you a bill (on top of the gas tax) for every mile you drive in the state.

    You can not trust a government that refuses to give full details on Billion dollar contracts, see the New Texas Road System (tm)
  • So? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by UserGoogol ( 623581 ) on Saturday April 02, 2005 @09:25PM (#12123601)
    Legal code reads like Perl to me, so I'm not really sure how much information they're planning on the chips, but how would this be any different with the current system: where every car is required to have a metal plate which projects an ID code and information on when the car was last inspected over the visual spectrum?

    I can understand the need for privacy, but when the information is already out there, it seems silly to get excited about something like this.
  • by Thunderstruck ( 210399 ) on Saturday April 02, 2005 @09:38PM (#12123666)
    Many raise the point about how easy it would be for RFID to be used to pay for parking or tolls and such. I prefer, however, to be able to see it when my money is being spent. It is much easier to keep track of where it goes when I have to count it out. If I am going to be charged, I want to make the conscious decision whether I'll pay or turn around and go elsewhere. I sure don't want to have to try and remember whether each line of fine print on a monthly statement is a correct representation of the roads I travelled or the places I parked.

    Likewise, consider the effect on the public? How much easier would it be to raise prices? If you pay now, you can protest. If you get a statement at the end of the month, how many people will go to the trouble of arguing?

  • by jefftp ( 35835 ) on Saturday April 02, 2005 @10:01PM (#12123776)
    The Harris County Tollroad Authority already uses RFID tags (call EZ Tags) to pay for tolls. Recently, the Houston and Dallas toll systems were integrated so drivers from one city could pay for tolls in the other city with their RFID tag.

    The tags could be easily abused to monitor speeding, but they are not. Real-time traffic maps are generated from the travel speed data:

    http://www.houstontranstar.org/ [houstontranstar.org]
  • by ArticleI ( 842868 ) on Saturday April 02, 2005 @10:15PM (#12123859)
    Are we talking windshield or license plate stickers here? Because with EZ-Pass [ezpass.com] certain cars [ezpassnj.com] with metal-oxide window tinting have to get an exterior tag to place by their license plate instead of behind the windshield. Would this metallic tint also block the RFID signals?
  • by pair-a-noyd ( 594371 ) on Saturday April 02, 2005 @11:19PM (#12124223)
    I've installed "vehicle loop detectors" [google.com] inground for traffic control, security, etc..

    They are everywhere. At most intersections you will see diamonds cut in the concrete and covered with tar and a line from the diamond that runs to the curb, usually headed towards a big silver box that operates the traffic lights.

    When a car passes over the loop the magnetic field changes and the system knows a car went over. Not only can it count cars, it can tell the size of the vehicle (motorcycle v. car v. truck) and estimate the speed and direction. This is usually to help control traffic lights so that the light doesn't sit on red when there are no cars there. It also is used in apartments and mini-storage areas to let cars out and shut the gate behind the car to prevent tailgaters from sneaking in.

    This loop can also act as a receiving antenna and it would be a very, very simple matter to have these loops "light up" the RFID chips and read them, then the equipment could pass the data upstream to what ever EVIL BIG BROTHER system you want (or don't want) to imagine.

    This is BAD... My suggestion? If this passes, you should destroy the chips. A couple hundred thousand volts should do it. A $30 stun gun should fry these nasty little bastards.

    Texas WILL pass this. I know how they work, Texas is very much into being a BIG BROTHER state.. They are wanking off at the thought of this right now..

  • by Master of Transhuman ( 597628 ) on Saturday April 02, 2005 @11:34PM (#12124289) Homepage

    the Texas Legislature has passed a law requiring all "American" flags flown throughout the state to contain the phrase "Heil Bush!" and the Carlyle Group corporate logo.

    Meanwhile, a few hundred more black kids will have their feeding tubes removed under the "Futility" law because their poor parents can't pay the hospital bill for the treatment.

    And a few hundred more minority criminals will be executed.

    Welcome to Texas - land of "the law" (as they used to call it.)

    Memo to Osama: Got any idea where your next target should be?

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