MS Files for Broad XML/Word-processing Patent in NZ

Unloaded writes "In the New Zealand Herald, Adam Gifford has written an article blasting Microsoft for burying the New Zealand Intellectual Property Office in paperwork. One example is Patent 525484, accepted by the office and now open for objections until the end of May, which says Microsoft invented and owns the process whereby a word-processing document stored in a single XML file may be manipulated by applications that understand XML."

salmacis

[salmacis2]

Would this be the same Microsoft that is arguing for patent reform?

Re:salmacis

[svanstrom]

No, it's the other one.

Re:salmacis

[Zorilla]

You never know. He may be stuck in alternate history where anti-trust trials actually work.

Re:salmacis

[fshalor]

Pattents should go through some sort of peer review process. (I'm not going to argue the details, as IANAL.) But something like what publishing takes in the scientific journal world.

It can't be expected for the pattent jockies to be able to tell what's crap or now. Heck, we can't tell in a lot of markets since we may not know anything about them.

They either have to start a peer revierw, or pay for experts.

Peer review, blind, is a very elagant solution.

Re:salmacis

[theLOUDroom]

Pattents should go through some sort of peer review process. (I'm not going to argue the details, as IANAL.) But something like what publishing takes in the scientific journal world.

I think I have a better idea:
Take away the persumption of validity from a patent. Turn the patent office in a registry of "I invented this on this date."
The first time you want to enforce you patent, you are FORCED to go to court and prove its validity. There a judge can hear aguments from experts presented by both sides

Re:salmacis

[johannesg]

Would this be the same Microsoft that is arguing for patent reform?

Patent reform in the US, after burying the rest of the world under software patents you mean?

Re:salmacis

[Anonymous Coward]

When the rules are there, you play by them. That's just what Microsoft is doing.

Microsoft has indicated that they want to see the rules changed, because they believe that the rules are broken. Again, as long as the rules remain unchanged, Microsoft has no choice but to play by them; it would be foolish not to.

There is nothing hyprocrital in what Microsoft is doing, so you need not use that tone.

For those of you that would like an analogy: Imagine saying "I believe that there should be no income tax." Now, while an income tax is still in place, would you spend money as if there were no income tax? Surely not. That doesn't make you a hypocrite.

Next, Image saying "I believe that the patent system is broken." Now, while the system is broken, are you going to file patents as if the rules were ideal? Surely not. That doesn't make you a hyprocite.

Re:salmacis

[The Angry Mick]

There is nothing hyprocrital in what Microsoft is doing, so you need not use that tone

Mom?!?

Re:salmacis

[booch]

But the current rules say that the idea must be new, and not obvious to someone skilled in the art. This patent is clearly obvious, and has been done before (KWord at the least, perhaps even programs using DocBook). Anyone skilled enough to "invent" this would/should know that it is obvious, and that it had been done before.

So Microsoft is breaking the existing rules. Now can we be mad at them?

Re:salmacis

[truthsearch]

When the rules are there, you play by them. That's just what Microsoft is doing.

In the US the rules state that you will not be granted a patent if there is prior art or if the invention is obvious. The USPTO is not properly enforcing the rules, but the law still stands. Microsoft is taking advantage of the fact that the rules aren't being enforced. Even though they would lose many court cases over these patents they apply for them anyway, knowing that they will almost never be overturned because smaller players can't afford the fight. That's not playing by the rules, that's circumventing them.

You can drive on the wrong side of the road when a cop's not around. That doesn't make it right.

Oh, great.

[mrchaotica]

So basically, MIcrosoft is trying to stop OpenOffice, AbiWord, Pages, etc. from being able to import and export Word XML files. Wonderful.

At least it's not patenting those apps from reading their own format, since they aren't single files (zips and bundles, respectively).

Re:Oh, great.

[DrXym]

So what we need is some kind of generic tool which atomises the word document (or any XML file) up into constituent parts and then feeds it to the OpenOffice, Abiword etc.?

Re:Oh, great.

[Illume]

XML file may be manipulated by applications that understand XML

Hmmm. All we need is a generic tool that manipulates XML files but doesn't understand XML.

Hmmm.

[ta bu shi da yu]

Sounds like Word all right.

Re:Oh, great.

[C10H14N2]

...it would appear that Microsoft is trying, deliberately or inadvertently, to completely dismantle the WTO. If this sort of crap actually succeeds, it might cause enough attrition in the ranks to effectively dump WIPO into the dustbin of history.

On the other hand, New Zealanders having a rather caustic sense of turnabout, I fear for the minions of the USPTO on the day they get the reciprocal volley and I'd kill to be in an Auckland rugby club the day it hits the news...

Re:Oh, great.

[DenDave]

Yah.. Prior Art.. Sun Microsystems..

Re:Oh, great.

[mrchaotica]

What prior art do they have? OpenOffice stores documents in multiple files inside a zip file, not a "single XML file" like the patent specifies. Is there some old version of StarOffice that does that?

Re:Oh, great.

[Pofy]

On the other hand, in addition for no prior art, it can't be something that is trivial to someone in the field. I would cal it trivial for someone in the field come up with the idea "lets put it all in a single file".

Re:Oh, great.

[JohnFluxx]

Gnumeric's .gnumeric file is a single xml file that also has 3rd party programs that can generate the xml file and manipulate it.

Re:Oh, great.

[mrchaotica]

but XSLT isn't "word processing xml", now is it?

Re:Oh, great.

[tibike77]

Assume sarcasm tags where needed, or where you start to feel offended personally...

First off... Maybe I'm getting something wrong here, but isn't the whole IDEEA behind getting a patent to both ensure the initial inventor (or better said, patent claimer) a fair share of income (out of the actual one) for a LIMITED period of time, so that later on that invention would be freely usable by pretty much anybody ?

Quoting some encyclopedia, "In the U.S.A any process or device may be patented if it is NOVEL and U

Re:Oh, great.

[mrchaotica]

I think that the computer science field is advancing so rapidly that everything is "trivial" (including compression and media codecs), and that even a 1 year patent would hinder the software industry more than it would help it.

Re:Oh, great.

[golgotha007]

Richard Stallman really says it best:

When CNET News.com asked Bill Gates about software patents, he shifted the subject to "intellectual property," blurring the issue with various other laws.

Then he said anyone who won't give blanket support to all these laws is a communist. Since I'm not a communist but I have criticized software patents, I got to thinking this might be aimed at me.

When someone uses the term "intellectual property," typically he's either confused himself, or trying to confuse you. The term is used to lump together copyright law, patent law and various other laws, whose requirements and effects are entirely different. Why is Mr. Gates lumping these issues together? Let's study the differences he has chosen to obscure.

Software developers are not up in arms against copyright law, because the developer of a program holds the copyright on the program; as long as the programmers wrote the code themselves, no one else has a copyright on their code. There is no danger that strangers could have a valid case of copyright infringement against them.

Patents are a different story. Software patents don't cover programs or code; they cover ideas (methods, techniques, features, algorithms, etc.). Developing a large program entails combining thousands of ideas, and even if a few of them are new, the rest needs must have come from other software the developer has seen. If each of these ideas could be patented by someone, every large program would likely infringe hundreds of patents. Developing a large program means laying oneself open to hundreds of potential lawsuits. Software patents are menaces to software developers, and to the users, who can also be sued.

A few fortunate software developers avoid most of the danger. These are the megacorporations, which typically have thousands of patents each, and cross-license with each other. This gives them an advantage over smaller rivals not in a position to do likewise. That's why it is generally the megacorporations that lobby for software patents.

Today's Microsoft is a megacorporation with thousands of patents. Microsoft said in court that the main competition for MS Windows is "Linux," meaning the free software GNU/Linux operating system. Leaked internal documents say that Microsoft aims to use software patents to stop the development of GNU/Linux.

When Mr. Gates started hyping his solution to the problem of spam, I suspected this was a plan to use patents to grab control of the Net. Sure enough, in 2004 Microsoft asked the IETF (Internet Engineering Task Force) to approve a mail protocol that Microsoft was trying to patent. The license policy for the protocol was designed to forbid free software entirely. No program supporting this mail protocol could be released as free software--not under the GNU GPL (General Public License), or the MPL (Mozilla Public License), or the Apache license, or either of the BSD licenses, or any other.

The IETF rejected Microsoft's protocol, but Microsoft said it would try to convince major ISPs to use it anyway. Thanks to Mr. Gates, we now know that an open Internet with protocols anyone can implement is communism; it was set up by that famous communist agent, the U.S. Department of Defense.

With Microsoft's market clout, it can impose its choice of programming system as a de-facto standard. Microsoft has already patented some .Net implementation methods, raising the concern that millions of users have been shifted to a government-issue Microsoft monopoly.

But capitalism means monopoly; at least, Gates-style capitalism does. People who think that everyone should be free to program, free to write complex software, they are communists, says Mr. Gates. But these communists have infiltrated even the Microsoft boardroom. Here's what Bill Gates told Microsoft employees in 1991:

"If people had understood how patents would be granted when most of today's ideas were invented and had taken out patents, the industry would be at a comple

Agatha Christie

[alsy]

The example I give when people have trouble understanding that software patents are bad is what would have happened if Agatha Christie had been able to patent the murder mystery novel.

People understand that this is ridiculous, and why only copyright is used for books.

Ditto for software

Re:Oh, great.

[Zemran]

[ o basically, MIcrosoft is trying to stop OpenOffice, AbiWord, Pages, etc. from being able to import and export Word XML files. ]

But only in New Zealand... those poor Kiwis.

Re:Oh, great.

[mrchaotica]

Remember how the US pushed free-trade laws, forcing Australia to honor US patents? Well, those laws work in the opposite direction too, and I'm sure we're going after New Zealand next...

Re:Oh, great.

[eric76]

Some companies like the competition.

That's especially true when the competition is incompetent, and their very presence helps keep more competent companies from opening local operations.

Re:Oh, great.

[matria]

Microsoft is a monopoly. It is illegal for such entities to engage in anti-competative activities that would be legal for smaller, non-monopoly entities. Microsoft has been convicted of violation of these laws, but nothing has ever been done to actually make it stop.

Re:Oh, great.

[mrchaotica]

They're not evil for wanting to stop competition; they're evil because of the grossly unethical -- and sometimes genuinely illegal -- tactics they use to do it.

Re:Oh, great.

[ecotax]

Call me ignorant, but why would any company NOT want to stop competition?

In an ideal capitalist world (how's that for a contradictio in terminis) companies would only compete 'fairly', that is, on the value of the goods they provide, thus creating the greatest customer value possible.

If my company saw a(n) (legal) opportunity to stop or hinder the competition, we'd grab it with both hands and do whatever we could to exploit that opportunity.

Which is a nice example on why there is no such thing as an ideal capitalist system. Under a communist system, you (and most other people) would try to get away with working as little as possible.

I'm not a big fan of Microsoft, but I'm getting a bit tired of the whole "it's Microsoft so it must be evil" mindset.

It does indeed get tiring sometimes. But it can be frustrating to see Microsoft bullying around companies or organizations making products or technologies you'd like to see having a fairer chance on the market, instead of competing with them 'fairly' against them.

Re:Oh, great.

[Anonymous Coward]

The term you're looking for is "free market economy". Capitalism is something else, which, in contrast to free markets, doesn't exclude monopolies.

Re:Oh, great.

[Thing 1]

Under a communist system, you (and most other people) would try to get away with working as little as possible.

Yes, and I do the same under a capitalist system. Or any other system. Why would I want to expend more effort on a task once my goals have been achieved?

The less emotional way to state the above is: "People tend to be efficient."

Re:Oh, great.

[mpe]

Call me ignorant, but why would any company NOT want to stop competition?

The alternative is to compete.

If my company saw a(n) (legal) opportunity to stop or hinder the competition, we'd grab it with both hands and do whatever we could to exploit that opportunity.

It may not even matter if it was legal or not. Often the penalties for corporate criminals are so weak that the potential profits from breaking the law excede the potential fines.
There's also the situation of corporate crooks "buying off" legislators and what (inadequate) law enforcement deals with this large area of crime.

Patent Overlords, oh my!

[Dark Coder]

Patent Laywers at the patent office are getting snow-blizzard.

Does this means, the patent reviewers are added to the growing list of Microsoft-bashers?

Patent the idea of patenting other peoples ideas.

[svanstrom]

Patent the idea of patenting other peoples ideas; that ought to stop most of Microsofts patents. =)

Re:Patent the idea of patenting other peoples idea

[BorgDrone]

"Patent the idea of patenting other peoples ideas"

That's a good idea, I'll file a patent application right away!.

Re:Patent the idea of patenting other peoples idea

[R.Caley]

Patent the idea of patenting other peoples ideas;

There is an unbelievable amount of prior art.

Tangentially relevent: one news story recently which seems to have slipped past /. was the decision that in the EU non-published but `everyone knows that' information can count as prior art to kill a patent [bbc.co.uk]. (it was a biotech patent, but clearly the argument has wider applications).

Re:Patent the idea of patenting other peoples idea

[vinsci]

More information on this case here:

Landmark Victory in World's First Case Against Biopiracy!! [grain.org]

European Patent Office Upholds Decision to Revoke Neem Patent

XML

[sandstorming]

There is a really really good explanation on what XML is and why it works here. [hyperglossary.co.uk]

The W3C states though that:

XML was developed by an XML Working Group (originally known as the SGML Editorial Review Board) formed under the auspices of the World Wide Web Consortium (W3C) in 1996. It was chaired by Jon Bosak of Sun Microsystems with the active participation of an XML Special Interest Group (previously known as the SGML Working Group) also organized by the W3C. The membership of the XML Working Group is given in an appendix. Dan Connolly served as the Working Group's contact with the W3C.

I understand that microsoft aren't claiming to have invented the technology, but it really annoys me that they are trying to patent a use, and a small extract of a software they had only a small part in developing!

Re:XML

[symbolic]

What Microsoft is attempting to do is patent one of the uses intended for XML from the very start. One of the mandates put forth by the XML working group was that XML shall support a wide variety of applications,. Given this, I'm puzzled at how anyone at Microsoft could even consider such a move. Wait....no I'm not. Just the same, if this patent is approved, something is very, very wrong.

The point of XML

[moochfish]

Great. With this, Microsoft is making XML is their own "proprietary" format. At least in that country.

Re:The point of XML

[eric76]

I think they've filed pretty much the same patent in the United States and in Europe.

MS Patents - A business strategy

[wcdw]

Sadly, they *are* likely to have at least some of their patents accepted, even if the more absurd ones wind up on /.'s front page.

And eventually they'll find a way to sue some company or another over one or more of them. If that company settles, rather than attempts to challenge the patent (which can be considerably more expensive), voila! - a profit center.

It's absurd that the only 'ideas' we're allowed to use in programming are those that either haven't already been thought of (and then it would be wise to get your own patent, or at least document prior art) or those that existed before the birth of the hideous cancer known as software patents.

But hey -- I feel so much safer, I guess it's *worth* losing all my rights, eh?

What defines a "word processing document"

[mrchaotica]

If the patent is for processing word processing XML files, how do they define that? Is XHTML word processing document? What about Docbook?

And how is it that word processing XML in particular is innovative and worthy of a patent? Isn't it fundamentally the same as processing any other XML?

Re:What defines a "word processing document"

[ghoti]

Is XHTML word processing document?

Well if the "self-contained" part means anything, then this does not apply to XHTML. Because even the stylesheet is usually a separate file, plus images, etc. So this only really applies to Office style stuff, and only from MS it seems (since OOo-Files are also archives containing several files, even if only text).

Re:What defines a "word processing document"

[lachlan76]

XHTML allows stylesheets inside the file, as well as inline styles.

It's the stupid rules, stupid!

[ehack]

You cannot blame MS for playing according to the rules; nor can one blame the policticians for being accomodating and writing the rules to benefit such a generous contributor. Anyone here say vicious circle ?

You certainly can!

[interactive_civilian]

ehack said:

nor can one blame the policticians for being accomodating and writing the rules to benefit such a generous contributor.

Yes, you certainly can blame the politicians here. It is not their job to accomodate generous contributors. It is their job to represent the will of the people (ALL the people, not just the wealthy contributors) that they are supposed to be governing.

This "vicious circle" could be easily broken if there were politicians that actually cared about their constituents and the welfare of their city/state/country rather than caring for the almight dollar/yen/euro/etc.

Re:You certainly can!

[Unordained]

It is their job to represent the will of the people (ALL the people, not just the wealthy contributors) that they are supposed to be governing.

What about cases where a politician is elected (even by more than 50% of the voters) but his constituency disagrees with him on a particular issue (say, 75% against him) -- should he go with his declared platform (which was bought as a whole) or the will of the people? (I'm not saying that's the case here at all. I'm wondering what should define "the will of all th

But they're _not_ playing by the rules!

[mrchaotica]

They're tricking the patent office into accepting their applications which are just outside the rules.* That patent isn't innovative, nor is it even new at all! What Microsoft is doing is like watching somebody create the automobile and then patenting sedans. It's just a subset and a particular use of an existing technology, not anything new at all!

*assuming NZ's patent rules are anything like the US's

Re:But they're _not_ playing by the rules!

[Zemran]

No trick, it is called swamping. This is one of hundreds. Ones like this will get rejected but lots of ridiculous but not quite as ridiculous ones will get through. It is just like nuclear missiles now split into hundreds of smaller missiles en route so that the defence systems of the target country may stop lots but lots will still get through (only one needs to). We will complain and we will win a few battles but they will win the war.

Re:But they're _not_ playing by the rules!

[mrchaotica]

Sure you can! You can blame both!

Re:It's the stupid rules, stupid!

[Martigan80]

You know this reminds me of Braveheart. Why you ask? Well when William Finaly got Scottland back on the map all the "loards" cared about was their rank and position to get to the throne. Don't mind all the people who died for that right, they just "want whats theirs."

Like our and many other polticians, they want whats good for them. And MS is good for them, John Q Public can't afford that kind of influence.

Shatner?

[Rufus211]

This story.

Would be better.

If it didn't read like.

One of Shatner's.

Speaches.

Re:Shatner?

[Anonymous Coward]

That post.

Would be better.

If it didn't read like.

An 11 year-old's.

First spelling test.

Ah yes...

[xstonedogx]

The famous Microsoft interoperability initiative.

"We're using an open format! You just can't do anything with it unless we say so. And yeah, we're not going to say so unless you're using our product anyway, or paying us a hefty tax that our competitors, both free and otherwise, can't afford. But hey, we're interoperable!"

so...

[sonictheboom]

is this what you might call patent spam? file millions, some are bound to get through?

Re:so...

[TheOldFart]

That's what makes this so naughty. Only large corporations are able to file patents for every brain-fart they come up with. The small guy is again rear-ended by the tool created to protect him.

Should be treated as fraud

[anth]

I think a lot of the problems with patents would go away if applying for a patent for something that the applicant knew had been done before, or should have known was obvious to someone in that field, was treated as fraud. That is a fine, or maybe even jail time for that applicant and senior management at that company.

I know, its not going to happen. Even if it did software patents would still be wrong.

Re:Should be treated as fraud

[mpe]

I think a lot of the problems with patents would go away if applying for a patent for something that the applicant knew had been done before, or should have known was obvious to someone in that field, was treated as fraud.

From the Patent office position this would require both denying the patent and passing the application to law enforcement.
Another way of handling things would be that all future patents from the same entity are date stamped and put to the "bottom of the pile".

That is a fine, or maybe e

Re:Should be treated as fraud

[Cyn]

To: All employees
Subject: Blame bill.

Hello all, this is your CEO. I just wanted you all to know that Bill Foobar from Internet Development got the good idea to patent something that was trivial - and we have a little problem because of it.

We are now in the process of restructuring to support our new business goal: making license plates. It is our plan to do this for the next 5 to 10 years, with vacation time for good behavior. If you are unsure how you will be needed in this regard, don't worry - you

Re:Should be treated as fraud

[Software]

all future patents from the same entity are date stamped and put to the "bottom of the pile".

Putting them on the "bottom of the pile" sounds like they would still have a chance of being approved. Instead, how about suspending the company's filing privileges for a period of, say, 6 months?

I don't agree with the concept of jail time. Let the punishment fit the crime. Filing fraudulent patent applications -> filing privileges suspended.

Interesting

[Planky]

I find this interesting.

It would seem MS is getting patents like these in a delevoped country that has no strong competitors - nor a very strong head when it comes to things IT. This way, the patents will be in place before anything is noticed and the damage has been done.

Mind you, they are getting vague patents overseas (read America) such as this.

I'd be very interested in finding out who, if any, would object to patents such as these here in NZ.

Re:Interesting

[jrumney]

It would seem MS is getting patents like these in a delevoped country that has no strong competitors - nor a very strong head when it comes to things IT.

Perhaps you have hit on their strategy. Many countries will grant automatic patents once a patent is recognized in 7 WIPO countries (though most will require at least 2 of the 7 to be US, Japan or EU). So maybe they're looking for the easiest way in through the back door.

Um... prior art...

[beelsebob]

Explain to me in what way the xhtml documents I find all over the web are not word processing documents stored in xml?

Patents

[ta bu shi da yu]

It would be nice to have some non-monetary penalties apply for frivilous patents. Like, for instance, if a patent gets rejected for being obvious then the firm doing the patenting must wait six months before filing another patent. It would do two things:

1. Teach the business that they should be more careful when it comes to patents, and
2. Frees up the patent office to do better research.

Re:Patents

[eric76]

if a patent gets rejected for being obvious

Has that even happened since the Louisiana Purchase?

Re:Patents

[yog]

Such a policy might have the unpleasant consequence of discouraging individuals from filing patent applications at all, since obviousness is in the eye of the beholder.

Maybe better for patent examiners to hire people who are more computer savvy, who can see these ridiculous claims for what they are. In the U.S. at least, patent examiners tend to be engineers and other types of highly educated people, but apparently software engineers are not yet in evidence in their ranks.

idiotic patent approval == globalisation???

[mcbevin]

I liked the article's obligatory closing anti-globalisation rant - 'Politicians still talk of a free trade agreement as benefiting this country. The reality is intellectual property rights will be high on the US agenda and it won't be to this country's benefit.'

Perhaps someone can explain to me how New Zealand's patent office approving dubious patent applications equals the US using globalisation to push their IP agenda?

Anyway, nice of this Microsoft basher to show all his stripes. I agree of course that

Re:idiotic patent approval == globalisation???

[mrchaotica]

Microsoft is just one of many companies playing this game, and its current stream of patent applications has little to nothing to do with Gates' early days writing BASIC for the Altair 8800 if you ask me.

He was attempting to show that this kind of thing (that is, using shady tactics to poorly implement and then profit from other people's ideas) has always been Microsoft's modus operandi. It would have been nice if he had cited some other examples, like DOS, Windows, Internet Explorer, etc. to connect the

Re:idiotic patent approval == globalisation???

[SirSnapperHead]

I like your comment's anti-anti rant. Except the quote you pulled wasn't about G L O B A L I S A T I O N. It was about a free trade agreement whereby the United States uses ths agreement to insert it's own laws into another countries' laws.

This was recently done to Australia, and included extending copyright to 'harmonise' with the United States, and legalise software patents in that country as well. Other nice things included an attempt by the United States pharmaceutical industry to force the Australia

Full patent text

[ta bu shi da yu]

In case anyone is interested and wants to be fully informed what the patent [iponz.govt.nz] actually says [iponz.govt.nz] (so rare a quality in a slashdot reader I find these days), then here is the abstract:

Patent 525484

A computer-readable medium having computer-executable components comprises a first component for reading a word-processor document stored as a single XML file; a second component that utilizes an XSD (XML Schema Definition) for interpreting the word-processor document, and
a third component for performing an action on the word-processor document.

The computer readable medium can further comprise a validating component configured to validate the word-processor document or a fourth component for displaying the word-processor document. The XSD represents a word-processor's rich formatting and the XSD is published and is available to applications other than the word-processor. The word-processor document can include hints to applications that understand XML.

The action may be selected from parsing, modifying, reading, and creating the word-processor document and may be fully recreating the word-processor document according to a word processor's set of features.

Re:Full patent text

[eric76]

In case anyone is interested and wants to be fully informed what the patent [iponz.govt.nz] actually says [iponz.govt.nz] (so rare a quality in a slashdot reader I find these days), then here is the abstract:

I'd like to know what the patent actually says.

At the same time, I'm not particularly interested in what the abstract says.

Re:Did you bother to follow the link?

[eric76]

I must have missed something.

One link showed an error. The other was a doc file that contained the abstract.

Inventive step

[moderators_are_w*nke]

For something to be patentable (at least over here), there must be an inventive step. Using XML to store data is what XML is for, this is an obvious use of existing technlogy and therefore should not be patentable. There's no invention there.

Defensive patenting

[potcrackpot]

The problem with this article is that it misses the point. Like any good troll, the author asserts facts and opinions that can't be denied, supporting what is unfortunately a skewed and unfair underpinning perspective.

Yes, the patent is a poor one - although MS did it first (I think), the idea isn't particularly great; it is an obvious idea from just reading the XML RFC.

However, a google search for "microsoft patent case" reveals page after page of results for microsoft being sued for patent infringement. None of the results, as far as I can see, pertain to Microsoft suing someone else.

A great deal of large companies have a strategy of defensive patenting: if you've got the patent, no one else can; plus, if you've got one they (an aggressor) infringe and they've got one you infringe, there's a chance that everyone will just forget all about it.

Microsoft's strategy is consistent with their talk about overhauling the patent system - the system is garbage, but they should hedge their bets and defensive patent in case it (the system) doesn't get changed.

No-one is getting screwed as much as Microsoft over patents. The author is simply picking on an easy target.

Re:Defensive patenting

[Pecisk]

I don't agree with your arguments that defensive patenting is effective in that way you described. Patents are very rarely checked for dublicates so it is common that many patents overlaps with each other in as many ways as they can. I compare this all patenting absurd more like creating modern warefare, for example, nukes. If I will have a big, nice, shiny nuke who can turn your capital into ashes in matter of seconds, you won't try to threat me with your nukes too. So we will be equal.

About those guys wh

Re:Defensive patenting

[Pecisk]

Microsoft strategy WAS consistent when they pushed for software patents in the first place - because they thought benefits will be more than loses. They were simply wrong - as many greed-driven iniciatives in the world today.

there is no such thing as ... Defensive patenting

[pbhj]

Perhaps you are thinking of "defensive publication"?

Patents are state licensed monopolies. A monopoly is offensive as it is used to attack others in the wallet if they try to exploit a technological innovation.

Defensive _publication_ is the firm establishment of prior art for a particular innovation to prevent another from getting a patent. Defensive publication leaves open the way for anyone to use the technology (with the proviso being that it can be established that no previous patent exists for that tech.).

The patent system can be used for defensive publication but this (usually, ie not in EU,US,UK, at least) doesn't require those presenting the matter for publication to get a patent. For example in the UK (GB patents) the submitted disclosure is made public long before a patent is granted and an applicant can just pull out at that stage if they only want a defensive publication.

There are also companies which specialise in defensive publication. Publication in journals is also used for this purpose.

FWIW.

Could be, but ...

[Craig Ringer]

I'm not entirely convinced about the defensive patent argument. I'm sure it's true for many companies, but I'm not at all inclined to believe MS is one of them.

- They've tried to actively enforce some patents - admittedly rather old and crappy patents (FAT32 anybody?), but that's still hardly a defensive move.
- It appears - I have no firsthand knowledge - that they want at least some degree of software patentability in the EU. This doesn't really fit with the purported view that the patent system is broken and they're just playing by the rules until it can be fixed.
- If they wish to focus on defense with patents, why would they not even reveal details about their patent claims on the now-defunct Sender-ID, let alone license them?

Now, they're a big company and they do a lot of things - but some of this appears comes from a very high level, the EU patent push in particular. I don't think that's consistent with someone who's just playing along until things can be fixed.

Re:Total drivel

[Keeper]

The fact of that matter is that the patent was granted! If MS didn't get that patent, someone else would have. And that someone else would have sued anyone with money for licensing fees (a certain suit regarding the use plug-ins that come up automatically comes to mind).

This has nothing to do with them trying to make it harder for competing software to be created (as evidenced by the fact that they have yet to use any of their patents in an offensive manner).

The SYSTEM that allows these patents to be gr

Re:Total drivel

[potcrackpot]

If they really wanted to shut open office out that badly, there's easier ways to do it that patenting something in *new zealand*.

I agree that open office, star office, and all the rest are an eventual threat MSOffice's market dominance and that they need to do something about it (like make office better value for money), but this patent is not going to help one whit.

Look at this: Sun pushes open office standard [com.com], specifically talking about an open document standard using XML - basically the OASIS format [oasis-open.org]

Sliding scale for patent filing

[jonbrewer]

Perhaps patent offices should implement a sliding scale for filing fees?

Instead of offering volume discounts, make each tier of filing (10, 100, 1000 p.a.) progressively more expensive. Say $75 USD each for the first ten applications, $750 USD each for 11-100, $7500 each for 1000+.

This would prevent overburdening of patent offices (they would have greater resources to cope) without discouraging individuals or small organizations. Can't see who it would harm, and it would certainly prevent abuse except by those with infinite resources.

Re:Sliding scale for patent filing

[fuzzybunny]

Fun idea, useless with those numbers. Companies file patents to (a) protect themselves against lawsuits ("if you sue me for patent infringement, I'm likely to have something in my archive based on which I can sue you back") and (b) make money through licensing.

The monetary gain for a company, in the case of (a) through avoided legal costs, and for (b) in actual revenues far exceeds the trivial amounts you specify.

Make the scale geometric and it starts having teeth :)

This one slipped through the watchers...

[Linker3000]

US Patent Office
Provisional patent application: PPA1283405995
Applicant: Microsoft Corp., Redmond
Date: 12-Feb-2005
Synopsis:
A rotating, magnetically polarised (variable), spherical device occupying a non-fixed position in time and space, comprising a semi-liquid core encased by an unstable, multi-layered outer shell surrounded by a mixed-composition liquid/gaseous environment with a range of complex environmental variances, capable of hosting a variety of surface and sub-surface, organic-based life forms supporting social and other interactions at various levels of intelligence using a range of simple-to-complex sensory devices.

Nukes are bad. Let's make more (our) nukes.

[Pecisk]

This double-faced strategy is getting a little bit tired. Come on, Microsoft, you think world are gonna along with this? five more years? ten? That's a living in the monopolist wet dream's fantasy - when all this stuff will seriously halt any kind of development in IT, it will be changed, no matter what Microsoft would like to see that.

Ok, I admit, I'm little bit naive, but hey...

p.s. I know that they are already a legit industry, who earns in such predatoric way about 300-400 bilions a year. I know all that bullshit. And I wonder - how long it is before everyone will think - hey, let's not do a real job, let extract money from someone else - and no real job will be done.

Re:Nukes are bad. Let's make more (our) nukes.

[mrchaotica]

Well, they'll get away with it at least through 2008 in the US...

Opposition

[zxombie]

The NZOSS [nzoss.org.nz] is opposing this patent as pointed out here [nzoss.org.nz]

Attention: Boss

[ewe2]

This is an important opportunity to explain to your PHBs how their business (and your livelihood) is going to be circumscribed by Microsoft-only technology unless they make a move to more interoperable and less encumbered software. Compliance is going to cost mega-dollars from lawyers fees to license renewal. It's just not worth it.

This kind of greed is going to kill XML innovation just by making the mechanisms legally doubtful unless you're a corporation who can afford to waste shareholder's investments.

Suggested solution

[hedleyroos]

A better patent system would be to have an entire community moderate patent applications. Only +5 patents are granted. Think Slashdot. Only those interested in tech affairs read Slashdot. Now simply adapt the /. code to work for the patent system and - profit! Or non-profit really.

Next up: U.S. Patent Office

[Anonymous Coward]

The same application has been filed at the USPTO as publication number 20040210818 [uspto.gov].

Correct me if I'm wrong .....

[ajs318]

..... but isn't a patent supposed to cover one specific means to an end rather than an end in itself? In which case this ought to be struck right down.

But if that's not enough, then there is plenty of evidence that this is not novel {KWord, anyone? OOWriter?}.

And if the prior art is not enough, this sort of thing should be obvious to an expert in the field. In fact, all of mathematics is obvious to a mathematician.

How obvious need obvious be? It's obvious that fire conducts electricity, even if you have never thought about it; because fire is a chemical reaction, a chemical reaction contains charged particles in motion, and charged particles in motion can carry an electrical current.

WTO?

[nurb432]

So, would this fall under the 'least common denominator' concept of the WTO?

"see, we hold a patent over there, so you must honor it over here"

Re:Why the fight?

[mr_z_beeblebrox]

Well they did invent XML so I dont see what the problem is?

In a cute sort of twist, they 'invented' xml so that they could produce documents in excel, word etc... that were compatible with other platforms yet did not open their own file format. I guess they thought that being giving was fine when they didn't believe anyone could receive.

Re:Why the fight?

[terryfunk]

Microsoft in no way invented XML. Dave Hollander invented XML.
http://www.mhxml.com/myinfo/MyBio.htm

Re:Why the fight?

[l3v1]

Well they did invent XML so I dont see what the problem is?

The problem is guys like you think this way and think they know and that they are right. Patent office clerks probably have about the same amount of information when accept patents like this as you do: a bit below nothing.

Re:These guys are lame

[0x461FAB0BD7D2]

We should get Sir Tim Berners-Lee and Sir William H. Gates III to duke it out in a joust, just like real knights of the empire.

Re:Patenting XML

[mrchaotica]

Yes. Now they can say "We support Open Standards! *snicker*"

Re:TIred of everyone giving Microsoft heat

[mrchaotica]

Yeah, right. All that means is that they haven't used their patents against Free Software yet. That will change soon, at least according to their leaked memo...

Re:Would this cover XForms?

[mrchaotica]

Well, then I suppose it hinges on whether an XForms document is a "word processor" document (and whether the entire patent is bullshit, of course, but that goes without saying).