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The Courts Government News Your Rights Online

Is Blogging Journalism? 556

An anonymous reader writes "In the wake of the judge's refusal to extend journalist protections to Think Secret in its case against Apple, the Net is abuzz with commentaries coming to its defense. MacInTouch points to three of them, from CNET's Declan McCullagh, MP3 Newswire's Richard Menta and grassroots journalism pundit Dan Gillmor. All agree that Apple went too far with its case and question the court's decision that Web journalists don't count."
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Is Blogging Journalism?

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  • Definately (Score:4, Insightful)

    by gimpynerd ( 864361 ) on Tuesday March 08, 2005 @04:15PM (#11881273) Homepage Journal
    Considering how much research that some people put into their blogs I would definately consider it a form of journalism.
    • Re:Definately (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 08, 2005 @04:18PM (#11881303)
      Why not the oposite? Considering how little research that most people put into their blogs I would definitely not consider it a form of journalism.

      Wait. Journalists still research their articles?
      • Re:Definately (Score:5, Interesting)

        by gimpynerd ( 864361 ) on Tuesday March 08, 2005 @04:22PM (#11881361) Homepage Journal

        It seems to me that while most people don't research their blogs there are some that do.

        The same is true for journalists...most are rather crappy but the precious few that do their job well are those who define their job field.

        In this way bloggers are in fact journalists, albeit unpaid, just some are better than others.

        • Re:Definately (Score:5, Informative)

          by circusnews ( 618726 ) <steven@s[ ]ensantos.com ['tev' in gap]> on Tuesday March 08, 2005 @06:22PM (#11882741) Homepage
          I run CircusNews.com. CircusNews.com runs on PHP-Nuke, aka blogging software.

          Is my website a blog or a news service?

          I like to think so. CircusNews.com is currently the most widely read news publication in the circus industry. Big Apple, Ringlings, Cirque and everyone else in the industry gladly issues us press passes when ever we ask. State and (in at least one major case) federal agencies have relied on our research and news reports over the years, not to mention the 50,000 readers we see a month. We are looking at licening AP content, and perhaps joining the AP.

          So if we are not a news service, can ANYONE explain to me why not?
      • I consider blog writers who don't do much research to be like opinion columnists in a newspaper.

        Are opinion columnists considered journalists?
        • Re:Definately (Score:2, Insightful)

          by gimpynerd ( 864361 )
          Most definately a good point, but who is to decide whether or not some did their research? It seems to me a lot of "jounalists" don't research their strories half as well as some bloggers.
          • I know what you mean... I guess my comment assumes that you can determine who does research and who doesn't. Usually you can tell by comparing your own research to the other person's. If it's way off, then either you've missed something or the person is just making stuff up.

            Some sites do just this, such as mediamatters [mediamatters.org] (clearly targets conservatives, but importantly only those that deserve it because they didn't do their research :-) )

            Sort of offtopic but found this...
            Can anyone explain to me the point
      • Re:Definately (Score:3, Insightful)

        by MikeCapone ( 693319 )
        Wait. Journalists still research their articles?

        Not very often in the U.S., anyway...
    • Speaking of the blogging experts circle, this is funny [burningbird.net] and semi-relevant.
    • Re:Definately (Score:5, Insightful)

      by LurkerXXX ( 667952 ) on Tuesday March 08, 2005 @04:22PM (#11881364)
      Yup.

      Is the New York Times journalism? Yep. (usually at least ;)

      Is the Star paper that you can pick up in your supermaket journalism? No.

      Both are on paper media. The media has nothing to do with it. It's all about the quality.

      99% of blogs are crap, but there are certain ones that I would say certainly are journalism.

      • Re:Definately (Score:5, Insightful)

        by KillboyPHD ( 82897 ) on Tuesday March 08, 2005 @04:32PM (#11881513) Homepage
        "Is the New York Times journalism? Yep. (usually at least ;)

        Is the Star paper that you can pick up in your supermaket journalism? No.

        Both are on paper media. The media has nothing to do with it. It's all about the quality."


        To add to you point:

        I've seen many comments here and in TFAs to the effect of, "What if the New York Times had published those leaks? There'd be no lawsuit."

        That's disinginous at best and stupid at worst. The New York Times would never had published the leak. An editor would have asked the reporter who their source was, and if it was an Apple insider, would have asked if the insider was covered by an NDA.

        That's because the New York Times actually engages in journalism.
        • Re:Definately (Score:3, Insightful)

          by snwcrash ( 520762 )
          Newspapers do decide to publish information that is in violation of contracts and laws and that type of thing. Think about whistleblowers. Many of them would probably have a contractual obligation not to reveal information to the media, yet newspapers are able to treat them as confidential sources.

          I don't think the ethics of a particular publisher distinguishes it as a journalist. Censorship starts when you try to split hairs over what is good journalism and what is bad, and therefore unprotected.
      • by mveloso ( 325617 )
        What you're saying is: stuff I think is importand is journalism. Stuff I don't think is important isn't journalism.

        Protections extend to anyone that publishes, in any written form. The quality of that content is irrelevant to whether that writer enjoys protection under the law.
        • by MyLongNickName ( 822545 ) on Tuesday March 08, 2005 @04:46PM (#11881697) Journal
          Qualitative measures are used all of the time. Simply because a line is gray doesn't mean we do not try to apply a certain amount of common sense to the situation. Take for example "Good Samaritan" laws that protect me if I choose to give CPR to a dying person. If I crack a rib, that law protects me. Even if I do a crappy job of it. Now lets say i decide to jump up and down on the man's chest to try to start the heart. Well, the law no longer protects me as my actions were no longer 'reasonable'. Where is the line between reasonable and unreasonable? Hard to say. But the ideas of 'reasonable' and 'prudent' are all throughout our law. They have to be. So, we do have to make some distinction between who is a journalist and who is not. My one-entry blog certainly does not merit journalistic status. A regular Business Week columnist does. Somewhere in-between? Let the law figure it out.
        • by LurkerXXX ( 667952 ) on Tuesday March 08, 2005 @04:49PM (#11881734)
          No, lots and lots and lots of stuff in the New York Times is not important to me. Most of it isn't. I don't care what's new in the Arts world. I don't read the Business section, etc, etc. But I bet the reports who write the articles for those bits did their research and make sure that what they are publishing is correct as far as they can tell from their research. That's what makes it journalism. The professionalism. Not whether I find that bit important or not.
      • Re:Definately (Score:3, Insightful)

        by the pickle ( 261584 )
        Is the Star paper that you can pick up in your supermaket journalism?

        Sure it is. Quality has nothing to do with intent. Just because the Star is tabloid trash doesn't make it any less a member of the press.

        p
    • It is not just about reporting news items. Most blogs are forums for personal opinion, like mine [utah.edu]. However, I have also used it for publishing reviews that some folks do find interesting and for the occasional news item. The interesting thing is that through my blog I have received a number of inquiries from traditional journalists looking for information that runs the gamut from Macintosh stuff, to vision research to the latest inquiries on my article [utah.edu] discussing the latest Newsweek cover. This is the re
    • Re:Definately (Score:2, Insightful)

      by nuckin futs ( 574289 )
      Considering how much research that some people put into their blogs I would definately consider it a form of journalism.

      what about the ones who just complains and spread FUD on their blogs? where do you draw the line on what is journalism and what isn't? for every research proving anything, there's always a research questioning the validity of it.
  • Was Apple Right? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by admsteiner ( 834731 ) on Tuesday March 08, 2005 @04:15PM (#11881277)
    See Professor Susan Crawford's piece on this on her blog where she argues the outcome (if not the reasoning) of the Judge's ruling was correct... http://scrawford.blogware.com/blog/_archives/2005/ 3/6/404732.html [blogware.com]
    • by mark-t ( 151149 ) <markt AT nerdflat DOT com> on Tuesday March 08, 2005 @04:19PM (#11881319) Journal
      Her argument rests then on the premise that any magazine which makes its business off of discovering insider secrets in other companies and disclusing them has no right to exist in a democratic society? Is that a correct assessment?
      • by PxM ( 855264 )
        Pretty much. It's the same reasoning protecting trade secrets that protects copyrights for private companies. Unless the public is at risk (E.g. company dumping toxic wastes in a daycare center), there is no constitutional reason to allow people to disclose trade secrets like that. Journalistic protection against governments is because the people have the right to know what their leaders are doing. Customers and other companies don't have those rights.

        --
        Free iPod? Try a free Mac Mini [freeminimacs.com]
        Or a free Nintendo D [freegamingsystems.com]
  • No (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Neil Blender ( 555885 ) <neilblender@gmail.com> on Tuesday March 08, 2005 @04:16PM (#11881282)
    Blogging is editorializing.
  • Well... (Score:2, Funny)

    If Fox News is considered journalism in this day and age, then sure, why the hell not?!
    • Re:Well... (Score:2, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward
      You do mean CBS right? :)
    • Re:Well... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by IthnkImParanoid ( 410494 ) on Tuesday March 08, 2005 @04:40PM (#11881621)
      Cable news "personalities" calling themselves journalists is, more often than not, like someone watching a meteor shower calling themself an astronomer. TV is like a machine that sucks any objectivity and factual evidence out of news and replaces it with inflammatory propaganda, fear mongering, and flashy graphics. Not that some blogs don't have the same problems, but if cable news is the standard to beat there are definitely bloggers that qualify as journalists.
  • This is wrong... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by the_skywise ( 189793 ) on Tuesday March 08, 2005 @04:18PM (#11881305)
    Freedom of speech protections apply to ALL individuals. Not just a selected profession.

    (Now individuals getting into a high government press conference... that's different...)
  • Some of the time. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by AnFraX ( 809909 ) on Tuesday March 08, 2005 @04:18PM (#11881307) Homepage
    Blogging is just a medium through which to deliver content. Like any kind of writing, it can be good, or it can be crap.
    • by garcia ( 6573 ) *
      As long as it isn't determined by what the Judge in the Apple case said... He claimed it was writers who were working for a commercial entity.

      Somehow I don't see the need for journalists to be identified by how they are compensated for their work. That kind of narrows the field of competition to conglomorate media sources and media outlets that may have financial control over the output of their writers.

      Sorry but just because we have lawmakers in the pockets of corporations doesn't mean we shouldn't be
    • Since so many people/talking heads use the undeniable fact that most blogs are crap against this kind of argument, I thought I'd make the obvious corollary to Sturgeon's Law: 90% of blogs are crap because 90% of everything is crap. That includes you, network and cable news media.
  • no way, not a chance (Score:3, Interesting)

    by joeldg ( 518249 ) on Tuesday March 08, 2005 @04:18PM (#11881310) Homepage
    one word:
    "NO"

    it is journaling and commentary.
    about the same thing as wasting your time reading the letters to the editor.
  • Short answer: no (Score:5, Informative)

    by karmaflux ( 148909 ) on Tuesday March 08, 2005 @04:19PM (#11881314)
    Caveat: ThinkSecret is not a blog.
  • by wizbit ( 122290 ) on Tuesday March 08, 2005 @04:19PM (#11881316)
    What with journalistic ethics taking a number of hits over the past few years (Jayson Blair, Dan Rather, "Jeff Gannon", et al) - and, Mac rumor "blogs" aside, the mainstream media is beginning to pay heed to bloggers at all levels of the news cycle. Just recently Garrett Graf, who runs the political blog FishbowlDC [mediabistro.com], was granted access to the White House Press Briefing [nytimes.com] - the same thing Guckert/Gannon was maligned for attending without any "real" credentials.

    Graf is the former editor of the Harvard Crimson, but he's not a journalist in the traditional sense, and he represents the first "legit" blogger allowed into the press gaggle. I'd say that's a very positive sign.
    • Just recently Garrett Graf, who runs the political blog FishbowlDC, was granted access to the White House Press Briefing - the same thing Guckert/Gannon was maligned for attending without any "real" credentials.

      Guckert/Gannon was not maligned for receiving a press pass. He was maligned for receiving a press pass using a false name, lying about his journalistic credentials, and lying about his involvement in illegal prostitution. All of this is well documented on blogs [blogspot.com] and legit news [washingtonpost.com] outlets [foxnews.com].

      (I don't w

  • Hmmm (Score:5, Insightful)

    Online bloggers (in various forms) who pretend to be journalists are upset that courts ruled that bloggers who pretend to be journalists aren't really journalists.

    Hard to imagine why that would be the case.

    When everything that happens to be written becomes journalism, then the word journalism ceases to mean anything.

    • Re:Hmmm (Score:3, Insightful)

      When everything that happens to be written becomes journalism, then the word journalism ceases to mean anything.

      Then by all means, share: where is the dividing line between journalists and non-journalists?

      Is someone who worked as a formally annointed "journalist" for 40 years at a major newspaper still a journalist if they quit working for the newspaper and start a blog reporting on the same topics? What about someone who worked there for five years? For one year? Three months? One day? Someone wh

    • by bonch ( 38532 ) on Tuesday March 08, 2005 @04:56PM (#11881814)
      I think a major factor that determines journalism is accountability.

      Blogs just aren't as accountable as a major commercial entity like a magazine or newspaper. Just look at Slashdot. It posts flat-out inaccurate and wrong information all the time as front page news articles. But it's not really news, and the editors aren't journalists. They're just posting user-submitted blocks of text with links to other sites, often without vetting the information or even seeing if it was posted already.

      If Slashdot was a print magazine, I guarantee facts would get checked a lot more often. But the Internet is seen as a responsibility-less place with no rules, so the attitude is much more lax.

      Drudge posts blaring headlines and then edits them 30 minutes later when they turn out to be wrong. He posted that the Oscars had come "back from the dead" in ratings, and then an hour later I checked the site to see a giant headline claiming that ratings had been the lowest in five years. There was no mention of the change.

      It's so easy to set up a webserver and post anything. That's why they are not considered journalists. When you're employed by a real news organization, there is a level of accountability and standards that must be met, or you will be fired. That accountability to someone isn't there when you're in your underwear and running your own server to post what you want.
  • by adolfojp ( 730818 ) on Tuesday March 08, 2005 @04:20PM (#11881330)
    Asking that question would be akin to asking "Are newspapers journalism"?

    I don't consider weekly world news with their bat boy news to be journalism. I don't consider mindy the teenager complaining about her miserable life journalism.

    Blogging is, nevertheless, a step forward for freedom of the press.

    Cheers,
    Adolfo
  • So the real question:

    Isn't everyone protected by the First Amendment? If so, should everyone ALSO be protected as journalists?

    Why not?

    Why is my speech and my actions less protected than someone who works for CBS?

    I write on Slashdot; I write on LiveJournal; I write on my own set of forums and a private website. Why do journalists, but not citizens, get protected through journalistic shield laws?
    • This is not a First Amendment case. Reporters do not have a first amendment right to shield their sources. Reporters from the NY Times and Time magazine "may be jailed if they continue to refuse to answer questions before a grand jury about their confidential conversations with government sources regarding the leak of a covert CIA officer's identity, a federal appeals court ruled yesterday." [washingtonpost.com]

      This is a CA case and there is a CA shield law that gives reporters the right to shield their sources. There have b

    • Isn't everyone protected by the First Amendment? If so, should everyone ALSO be protected as journalists?

      No.

      The reason why some states give journalists the right to shield their confidential sources is to encourage whistle-blowing and reporting about government abuses, fraud, etc. Though even on that ground, the courts aren't always willing to accept it (see the Plame/Novak case).

      There is no blanket right to shield confidential sources. Getting the scoop on MacWorld is fun and all, but it doesn't

      • No.

        The reason why some states give journalists the right to shield their confidential sources is to encourage whistle-blowing and reporting about government abuses, fraud, etc. Though even on that ground, the courts aren't always willing to accept it (see the Plame/Novak case).

        Then why can't individuals be given the right to shield confidential sources in cases where the information is of a whistle-blowing nature, about government abuses, fraud, etc.? The Thinksecret case aside, if you're in a position to

        • There are related laws to protect non-journalist whistle-blowers. They generally prohibit firing, reducing pay, changing work duties, and any other forms of retaliation.

          I think the reason why journalists are treated differently is because they are in a unique position to disseminate information quickly and widely. Blogs are changing that, though.

          I would expect a web-only journalist to be treated the same way as a traditional journalist. Though I would also expect a few years of court challenges befor

          • "There are related laws to protect non-journalist whistle-blowers. They generally prohibit firing, reducing pay, changing work duties, and any other forms of retaliation."

            In addition, the "whistle blowing" must be complaining about something that is illegal, such as OSHA violations, labor violations, wage-and-hour violations, environmental violations, etc. -- it is not "whistle blowing" to share trade secrets, to discuss product or marketing materials (or other company confidential info), or to just genera
    • Not everyone's speech is protected by the First Amendment at all times. The classic counter-example is that you can't yell "Fire" in a movie theater. Some speech is routinely regulated. For instance, parties, witnesses, and lawyers to a pending lawsuit aren't allowed to comment about it, lest they violate the defendant's Sixth Amendment right to a fair trial.

      Journalists are given a wide latitude to speak, because they help keep our governmental processes open to public inspection, which is one of the polic

  • by aengblom ( 123492 ) on Tuesday March 08, 2005 @04:21PM (#11881356) Homepage
    Journalism is irrespective of any medium -- and that includes blogs.

    A journalist is a journalist whether they spread they spread their work through newspapers, magazines, trade publications, pamphlets, zines, radio, television, web sites, blogs or even as town crier.

    The medium is not the message.
  • Yes. (Score:3, Insightful)

    by curtisk ( 191737 ) on Tuesday March 08, 2005 @04:22PM (#11881368) Homepage Journal
    Yes, it is journalism, as in the act.

    But that doesn't mean that its the same as "big media", or that it demands the same consideration of conventional news services.

    Thats why some in conventional news media are bothered by blogging, they do their thing and they are playing by their own rules outside of the "corporate news sandbox". And yet they still have a ever growing audience that prefers them to the ol' standbys.

  • Question (Score:4, Interesting)

    by AaronStJ ( 182845 ) <AaronStJ@gmail.c3.14159om minus pi> on Tuesday March 08, 2005 @04:22PM (#11881375) Homepage
    Pardon my ignorance, but in traditional journalism, is the confedentiality of a source legally protected if the source is demonstrably breaking the law?

    As I understand it, Apple wanted the name of the source because whoever the source was, he or she was breaking trade secret or NDA laws. Would this (outlaw) source's confidentiality normally have been in another medium?
    • But it hasn't been proven that any particular source _did_ break the law. That might be provable if the sources were known, but that's not for certain.

      If it turned out that none of the sources actually did break the law, then revealing them simply would have compromised _their_ privacy without actually furthering the cause of justice. (Further, because the magazine revealed their identity, they could be legally liable to their sources for revealing their names!) The premise of innocent until proven gu

    • Depends on what law is being broken and why. If you violate an NDA to report something such as a company that is doing illegal dumping or something that is illegal, the whistleblower is protected. This part has been tested in court multiple times.

      If you violate an NDA to disclose a companies business plans that in no way harm anyone (other than competing businesses), that is what this case is about.

      If you break an NDA and in the process cause harm, without there being any public good involved... Well,
  • by Spazmania ( 174582 ) on Tuesday March 08, 2005 @04:22PM (#11881380) Homepage
    the judge's refusal to extend journalist protections to Think Secret

    Uh... last I checked, US courts do not recognize the notion that a journalist has the right to refuse to disclose a confidential source. More than one reporter has been thrown in jail for contempt of court over this. So, I'm not real clear here how Think Secret's treatment is any different than what a normal journalist would get?
  • It sure is (Score:2, Informative)

    This is how Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary defines it:

    1 a : the collection and editing of news for presentation through the media b : the public press c : an academic study concerned with the collection and editing of news or the management of a news medium
    2 a : writing designed for publication in a newspaper or magazine b : writing characterized by a direct presentation of facts or description of events without an attempt at interpretation c : writing designed to appeal to current popular taste or publ
  • After all, the blogosphere had more journelistic integrity that Dan Rather, so either the Blogs are Journelism, or Dan Rather isn't. Tough call.
  • Freedom of speech and of the press are.

    Therefore it seems to be specious to deny to any private individual rights to publish something just because he lacks a certain institutional affiliation.
  • Whether bloggers are journalists. It's obvious to most all who think about it that they are. The question is whether journalists should conceal sources that are doing criminal things.

    There is no special elite class of people called journalists. If there were, we'd really be in trouble. Everybody's got a point of view and a story to tell. That's the beauty of free speech. My CNN is your Fox News. Your local weekly rag is my neighborhood newsletter. My esteemed orator is your empty-headed shyster.

    But using
  • by matman ( 71405 ) on Tuesday March 08, 2005 @04:26PM (#11881421)
    According to CNN [cnn.com], the White House just gave a blogger, Garrett M. Graff (of Fishbowl DC) a press pass. If blogging doesn't count as journalism, it will soon.
  • Wrong Question (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Ironsides ( 739422 ) on Tuesday March 08, 2005 @04:26PM (#11881426) Homepage Journal
    The question is not "Is blogging Journalism".

    The question is "Is this an instance in which the Shield Law(s) was meant to be applied".

    Blogging as journalism is debatable. But it is protected under the first amendment. That part can not be in question. However, protecting sources that reveal confidential information, when there is no public (necessity/safety/whatever word you want in here) as in the case of the Pentagon Papers, Whistleblowing or otherthings, is what this case was really about.
  • As often occurs, I think one of the problems here is that some people (and especially the legal people) want a clear cut-off between "journalist" and "non-journalist." In the real world, such sharp boundaries do not exist.

    I think blogging is really highlighting the fact that this boundary does not exist. Is there really a fundamental difference between a well-written and researched blog and an article written by a journalist and then posted online?

    Basically we have a spectrum from "crappy ranting blog" to
  • Blog = Journal (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Custard ( 587661 ) on Tuesday March 08, 2005 @04:28PM (#11881462) Homepage Journal
    A blog is an online journal. A journalist is "one who keeps/writes a journal". So how is a TV Anchor more of a "journalist" than a blogger?

    The spirit of the law is to let the truth get out without compromising the truth-teller's safety / privacy. I think using it to provide insider info that may break NDA's about upcoming products is unfortunate, but we must defend it or else real whistleblowers, such as someone ratting out a pharmaceutical cover-up, will be afraid to tell their story, and the public will get hurt.

    I don't agree with the KKK, for an extreme example, but I do agree with their right to speak their minds; and the same goes for thinksecret.com: I think it's sneaky to sell apple's private product info (paid informants, or just ads on the site) and then protect the transaction under the cover of journalism, but to protect other bloggers conveying more vital issues, we must also protect thinksecret.

    Similar points raised in http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=141361&cid=118 47784 [slashdot.org]

  • 2001-Present

    Web Journalist
    myblogsite.com - maintained database of award winning critiques about my life and the world.
    1998-Present

    Software Tester
    Tested thousands of software packages from a newsgroup database and performed quality, speed, and bug evaluation tests.
    2000-Present

    Auctioneer
    Designed and presented auctions for a variety of materials on one of the most popular web-based auction sites.
    1997-Present

    Marketing Professional
    Skilled at utilizing underused servers to send

  • by trazom ( 796516 ) on Tuesday March 08, 2005 @04:39PM (#11881595)
    If blogs are journalism, they should have to follow the other laws that apply to journalism, namely, that they cannot be libelous or slander individuals.

    Libel: 1. A false publication, as in writing, print, signs, or pictures, that damages a person's reputation. 2. The act of presenting such material to the public.

    Slander: 1. Law. Oral communication of false statements injurious to a person's reputation. 2. A false and malicious statement or report about someone.

    So many people write things that are blatantly false and damaging, and get away with it without any punative action because they are blogs or forums. There should be some major penalty for putting completely false information out there - and this holds for "old" media companies too.

  • I mean blogger.

    The big difference is that journalists have editors and ethical canons. Bloggers have a computer and an opinion.
  • 'law-breaking' as is the case for the ThinkSecret affair.

    And this isn't a free-speech issue, as most would like to disguise their defense as. Nowhere does it say you can break the law when reporting stuff.

    The ThinkSecret stuff was nothing like whistle-blowing, or exposing a conspiracy or fraud for the public good; they took a trade-secret (which they are now pretending it wasn't which is total BS) and illegally published information on it. That's not journalism, or even good journalism if you want to degr
  • The following isn't a end-all, be-all defense for the blogger, but it can't hurt:

    Because hardcopy periodicals were the standard mass media during the founding of the US republic, they have arbitrarily been given greater protection from government and private restraint of publication than subsequent technologies. Logically and practically, it puts you in the same soup as arguing whether the Founding Fathers intended the bearing of automatic arms or not, but that's Anglo-American jurisprudence for you.

    The

  • These days, the average blogger is more reliable than the average journalist.

    Or is the average journalist as crappy as the average blogger?
  • How can /. even ask this question? What would make it not journalism? How would a page or site that is called a blogg be any different than, for example, The Drudge Report, other than the first may have the letters blogg within it and the second might not? Clearly there might be some bloggs that might be nothing more than people telling what they had for lunch that day, but these are hardly the one that are being attacked here. The ones that are being attacked must be journalism as much as any other website
  • by sfgoth ( 102423 ) on Tuesday March 08, 2005 @04:43PM (#11881659) Homepage Journal
    Even journalism isn't journalism anymore!

    Journalism used to mean researched stories, informing the reader. It seems that 99% of blog content is heresay [reference.com]. And professional journalists are joining the party, reducing their stories to simple "he said, she said" puff pieces.

    Journalists receive special protection in exchange for informing and educating society. If they don't uphold their side of the deal, I don't see why they should retain special privileges.
  • by fire-eyes ( 522894 ) on Tuesday March 08, 2005 @04:56PM (#11881818) Homepage
    Why yes, it's GONZO Journalism [wikipedia.org]!@!
  • by museumpeace ( 735109 ) on Tuesday March 08, 2005 @05:02PM (#11881899) Journal
    but to say "web journalists don't count" also goes too far. It implies that bloggers are all journalists. The blog in question clearly was journalisitic but 99% of the pap on *.blogspot.com is porn, commercials, foaming at the mouth on the politcal and relgious right and mostly self absorbed diarizing...are we protecting that? The so-called blogosphere has way more defamatory, inflamatory, libelous and privacy invading contetent than any print media would get away with and I include buttwipe like the National Enquirer in that. Most of them are read by nearly noone but the authors so there is no big stink... are we protecting that?
    I agree with those who think the court doesn't get it because I think that blogging CAN BE simply a lowest-cost-of-entry publishing format, a minor technical distinction exists between that and conventional news media. The caution I suggest is that if we act as if blogging automatically IS journalism then we provide gold settings for all the droppings just becuase they get delivered with the same technology as the diamonds. By intent and content, most blogs don't rate any more protection than a post card, an open piece of first class mail tacked up in public place.
    How to make a better distinction between "journalism" and electronic flatulence? The courts should consider [a]who reads it and [b]who writes it or what authority is ascribed to the information. The tricky parts would then just boil down to cases where the author always said "this is just a rumor" but the info was always right on the money.

    Oh, and the other 1%? I think I bookmarked all 2000 of them!
  • Law, not Semantics (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Onimaru ( 773331 ) on Tuesday March 08, 2005 @05:06PM (#11881948)

    Let's think clearly and logically for just a moment here. I see a lot of argument about the dictionary meaning of "journalism" and whether or not blogs qualify. I don't want to take a position on that. But I do want to take the position that whatever your opinion is about the journalistic purpose or lack thereof with regards to bloggers or a particular blog, it kind of doesn't matter with respect to this story.

    Let's not lose sight of the fact that Judges are there to make rulings on matters of law, not to assign value judgements about the worth or societal value or accuracy of a given practice. This isn't a ruling that ThinkSecret isn't "real journalism" or that it's creator isn't a journalist (whatever that means). It's just a legal judgement about whether or not the practices he employs qualify him for protection by certain laws.

    I'll even go so far as to make a speculation about what laws were relevant. I'd imagine that TS argued that he could not be compelled to disclose the identity of a source who preferred to remain anonymous because journalists get to protect their sources. I also imagine that the judge found from the facts presented (or lack thereof) that the standard practices which allow for that kind of protection were not generally followed on TS. For example, to shield sources in this way, a journalist usually has to show both that he corroborated this particular piece of info in some way and that it was the regular practice of his outlet so to do. TS clearly doesn't operate that way...which isn't bad or wrong in my opinion, but it would be an abuse of these laws to let them apply in the TS scenario.

    Let's not make this about some kind of slam on the blog community. Judges exist to know the rules and to apply them fairly. TS took a shot at interpreting the rules one way, and the judge said no. Don't get distracted by the rhetoric.

  • by tweedlebait ( 560901 ) on Tuesday March 08, 2005 @05:32PM (#11882230)
    Something I rarely see explored in the blogs VS 'regular media' debate is the role that the shelf life and interactivity of stories both play.

    The usual media outlets are fire and forget stream without any chance critique and within the next 4-24 hours will be another barage.

    News on blogs can last a very long time, propogate, be critiqued, and draw lots of fans, foes, and wholy other points of view. The story might be complete bunk but looking at it as a whole, valuable things can be found.

    I haven't really seen the issue of the longevity of stories brought up in the whole debate but I think it's near the heart of the argument.

    Do I think bloggers are journalists? You bet- and their quality varies just like the others.

    In the middle of the debate there seems to be lots of allegations from mainstream media talking about journalistic integrity, bloggers not having the resources to truly produce news,lack of 'real editors' and rewriting stories without much disgression. I'd love to see mainstream news without access to things like the AP, lexis/nexis, or other news services for a month.

    I'd also love to see the news show joe public how they do make the news and what truly differenciates their news from a bloggers. All I've really seen lately is a lot of fire and forget allegations.

  • by reallocate ( 142797 ) on Tuesday March 08, 2005 @06:13PM (#11882643)
    Blogging is far too broad a term to use with precision. It simply means the act of publishing something -- anything -- on a blog.

    Likewise, writing is far too broad a term to use with precision. Most of what is written and published is not journalism, regardless of where it is published.

    Then there's this: all reporters are journalists, but not all journalists are reporters.

    Here's the point: journalism and reporting are types of behavior, rather well-defined, that merit protection. It is irrelevant where the product of that behavior -- the writing -- is published. If it happens to be published in a blog, then it merits protection.

    But, simply writing for a blog doesn't, by itself, merit protection, anymore than writing for a newspaper, by itself, merits protection.

    That means that if the ThinkSecret guy engaged in something we'd recognize as reporting to get that sotry, then the court's decision should apply to any and all journalists, whether they publish in a blog or not.
  • No ..... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Usagi_yo ( 648836 ) on Tuesday March 08, 2005 @06:50PM (#11883043)
    Blogging isn't journalism, but todays journalism isn't "JOURNALISM" either.
  • by TractorBarry ( 788340 ) on Tuesday March 08, 2005 @07:18PM (#11883308) Homepage
    A: No.

    It's the delusion that the world is remotely interested in what you had for breakfast this morning.
  • by macemoneta ( 154740 ) on Tuesday March 08, 2005 @09:52PM (#11884612) Homepage
    I see a lot of folks arguing about the definition of journalism, and whether or not writing a blog qualifies. Well, my dictionary says that journalism is:

    "The periodical collection and publication of current news"

    Unless the court has a different definition, then blogging is journalism. There is nothing that I can see from the dictionary definition that would exempt it.

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