Companies Claim iTMS, iPod Patent Infringement

ryan_fung writes "A Hong Kong based company, Pat-rights, is claiming that Apple's iTunes Music Store is infringing their patent on 'Internet User Identity Verification' and is demanding Apple pay 'a reasonable license fee, 12% of gross sales of iTunes music tracks and iPods.'" (They also claim infringement by eBay, porn sites, and others.) Reader bblazer links to a Register article which mentions both the Pat-Rights claim and another suit entirely. From the article: "Apple has found itself facing a pair of intellectual property challenges that separately claim its FairPlay DRM system and its iPod music player contain technologies to which the Mac maker does not have a right. First up, Lake Forest, Illinois-based Advanced Audio Devices (AAD) alleges its patent, number 6,587,403, for a 'music jukebox,' filed in August 2000 but granted in July 2003, covers the kind of thing Apple has brought to market as the iPod."

..in august 2000

I already had my rio.

which still works,btw..

(does the patent say something about hd then or something? seems like you can patent just about anything)

Re:..in august 2000

Read the article dude. They are claiming a patent on user login. Straight from their site:

Everyone knows that iTunes allows a user to play purchased music tracks to up to 5 computers, without repeated payment, under the condition that the computers are registered. The computer registration involves a process of identity verification in which a user is required to key in into the computer the correct Apple ID and password he used to purchase the song. This is certainly a patentable technology. If iTunes does not patent it, there must be a very good reason for them not to do so- someone else has patented this.

This company is patenting USER LOGINS OVER THE INTERNET ! This is a basic, fundamental technology of today's Internet. Obviously they are full of crap, but how do we stop patent-whoring companies who can steamroller anyone using the US Court system?

Re:..in august 2000

Reminds me of that movie Mars Attacks (1996) Just after the aliens destroy congress, the President says

"I want the people to know that they still have 2 out of 3 branches of the government working for them, and that ain't bad."

Re:..in august 2000

Read their patent and you will see why

5. A method for protecting software from unauthorised use, as claimed in claim 4, wherein further comprising the steps of: storing an encrypted identity of a user in said processing apparatus; and if all of said protected programs stored in said processing apparatus has a valid user identity which being consistent with the decryption result of said stored encrypted identity, permitting use of said protected programs and not permitting if otherwise.

Patent 6,665,797 [uspto.gov]

Re:Wel,, there's your out then

The grandparent said:

Software is a set of instructions executed by a processor

Did he mention a CPU? I don't think so. The JRE is also a processor - a virtual machine that processes bytecode instructions. The other script interpreters you mentioned are also processors - they process scripts :)

Java code is not a program

It £^%$^%& well is!

Re:..in august 2000

You are right. I will not even address the fact that the patent is bogus and there is so much prior art that it should be pretty easy to defend against it (so long as you have the money to actually afford the legal defense).

There are two defenses:

1) The definition in the patent is "A method for protecting publicly distributed software from unauthorised use". This is not publicly distributed software. It is privately distributed.

2) Software, in the definition of this patent, is executing code. The patent is for an authorization system to enable the execution of specific software. With iTunes and every other DRM, the authorization is to access the content, not execute software code. There is quite a difference. Not all bits are the same. Different bits do different things.

Yes, you have to execute code to access the content but that is not the information in the patent. In fact, this particular patent seems more focused on authorization to access and use software program updates. I think Microsoft's update service is closer to this patent, as Microsoft checks your product ID before allowing you to obtain things like Service Pack 2 for XP. However, MS doesn't do any user specific authorization so that would exclude it anyway.

Re:..in august 2000

I already had my rio. which still works,btw.. (does the patent say something about hd then or something? seems like you can patent just about anything)

The patent for the Music Jukebox's primary claim is as follows:

1. A music jukebox configured for storing a music library therein, said music jukebox comprising: a housing; an audio data receiver arranged to receive audio data from outside the housing; audio output structure located at least partially within the housing for outputting audio signals; data storage memory in the housing for storing audio data received from outside the housing through the audio data receiver, said music jukebox including a user interface comprising a display device located at least partially within the housing, said display device providing a display which is viewable from outside the housing, and a plurality of manually operable function controllers on the housing, said music jukebox configured such that a music library of sound tracks is storable in digital form in the data storage memory as a result of audio data being received from outside the housing through the audio data receiver, said music jukebox configured such that said music library is organizable into a master song list and at least one group of sound tracks wherein each group comprises at least one sound track selected from the master song list, wherein said music jukebox is configured such that indicia of said master song list and indicia of at least one group of sound tracks are displayable on said display, wherein said music jukebox is configured such that said plurality of manually operable function controllers is useable to select a group of sound tracks stored in the data storage memory and operate the music jukebox such that said music jukebox outputs audio signals through said audio output structure.

They then go and describe variations upon this claim, including players that use flash memory, players that use hard drives, etc.

I think that it's pretty obvious the patent doesn't hold water - the first MP3 player sold in the US was the Eiger Labs MPMan, released in the summer of 1998. It was followed by the Rio, released in late 1998. Both players follow the same general form as the device described in the patent - they receive audio data, store it, and play it back out the headphone jack; they both have a screen where you can select a specific track from your library, and both have controls that allow you to do the selecting.

CNET described [com.com] these early MP3 players, even tracking down a 6 gig USB based MP3 player with a large screen that was released in 1999.

The IL company doesn't have a hope in the world of defending their patent.

Arg

I'm so sick of this shit.

Re:Arg

No kidding.

It gets worse. This pat-rights outfit has retained some patent lawer:

Mr. Joseph J. Zito, demanding Apple a reasonable license fee, 12% of gross sales of iTunes music tracks and iPods, and Apple will have to accept it in 21 days. Mr. Zito is a well-experienced patent counsel, and has actively engaged in intellectual property litigation in District and Appellate Courts.

Well, a search on Attorney Zito reveals that he was the patent attorney for some guy who has patented gravity [epimedia.com]! Talk about an all-encompassing patent. So this is the nut they've hired to enforce their patent. Somehow, I suspect Apple doesn't have a whole lot to worry about from these opportunists.

;-)

Wow

So they can't come up with their own products, they just decided to sue Apple?

Ohh and a patent for a digital jukebox? Hello ever hard of the Nomad Jukebox?!?

Ohh and then, umm 12% of sales form iPods? Holy shit thats a lot of fricking money...

Re:Wow

Not in this case. This has nothing to do with suppressing competition, since "Pat Rights" or whatever doesn't have a music download service nor do they manufacture a music player ... they just have a patent. So this isn't an anti-competitive measure at all. It's just a blatant attempt to extort money from a successful company, and that makes it even worse.

But you're right ... something does need to be done about software patents. As in "eliminating them completely." So far as improving the economic health of the nation, or "promoting the useful arts and sciences" goes, or indeed anything other than "enriching the few at the expense of the many" they serve no purpose and should never have been permitted.

Re:Wow

There are cases where software patents are valid. For example, a new, intuitive interface that cost a great deal of money develop.

What makes you think that is deserving of a patent? Are companies going to stop trying to make their interfaces better just because they can't stop others from taking their UI ideas? That hasn't stopped anyone so far. How exactly does being able to do one thing and then just sit back forever better (in terms of encouraging progress in arts and science) than being forced to keep on innovating in order to stay ahead? What do you think the state of spreadsheet software would be like today if someone had patented the whole concept of laying out data in the form of, well of a spreadsheet?

These people are professional parasites

So far as improving the economic health of the nation, or "promoting the useful arts and sciences" goes, or indeed anything other than "enriching the few at the expense of the many" they serve no purpose and should never have been permitted.

Somewhere down the line, government stopped being about the people, and became about capital.

The usefull arts and sciences are those that increase profits.
The economic health of the nation obviously is directly linked to the economic health of the owners of the nation's infrastructures.

When people are obsessed over the enemies abroad, they don't notice the enemies within.

Re:Wow

Ohh and this is just another reason why software patents are completely useless...

I'm not trying to say that maybe (Slashdot in general | you in particular) don't really have a clue, but compare your informational content to mine.

MPEP 2106(II)(A) states that, among other things, a software process must produce a "useful, concrete, and tangible result". The definition of "useful" is given a lot of ink, but later in that chapter it is made clear that a "concrete and tangible result" meets the "useful" requirement. Looking at the independent claims of this patent (6665797), I don't see anything that could be reasonably interpreted as a "concrete and tangible" result. While the idea of the claimed methods are useful, the "access" that is provided is by no means concrete or tangible. Therefore, were I defending against an infringement suit, I would attack these claims as directed to nonstatutory subject matter, not in compliance with 35 USC 101, and hopefully have the suit dropped.

The next thing I see is language like "in such a manner" in the claims. Oh really? Exactly what manner is that? Claim 14 says

wherein said identity information existing in such a manner that said identity information being capable of being used in enabling electronic commerce operation(s) for which rightful user(s) of said software desired to be protected has to be responsible;

Uh, wtf? If my attack on these claims under 35 USC 101 wasn't enough, I would use 35 USC 112. What the hell kind of limitation is that? Exactly WHAT "identity information" is covered by this? That one example is so vague that I couldn't begin to tell you what it covers. A user name? A credit card number? A DNA sequence? Give me a break.

The third attack I would make has to do with the disclosure, and falls under 35 USC 112 as well. Just take a quick glance at the supposedly enabling disclosure. It's marginally better than Engrish. I certainly don't see every claimed feature depicted in the drawings. Exactly where in the drawings is "said operation being operation related to making payment from an account of said rightful user(s) and said first information being a password"?

I don't see what the fuss is about. Here's the real story.

"Inventors" hire lawyer to get patent.
Lawyer writes up a crap ass patent application.
Lawyer annoys an examiner, examiner looks at application, examiner smirks. (Issued now with flaws is far, far worse for the "inventor" than issued later after the application has been strengthened (and the opposite is true for humankind, which should make the limp-wristed hippy socialists happy.))
Examiner allows patent - lawyer gets paid - "inventor" gets patent.
Next comes the infringment and some publicity for the litigants. I wish them luck with that USPTO-issued wallpaper. Better hope Apple can't afford decent lawyers... oh wait.

I'd put odds on Apple not paying a cent for infringing this patent. I'd also put odds on never hearing about this patent after Apple's lawyers are done with it.

Seriously, all the alarmist talk around here about "OMGWTFLOLBBQ!!!11one just more evidence that software patents are eilv!" is nothing more than silly if you have half a clue. There are definitely problems with the system, but THIS is not indicative of THAT problem.

Disclaimer: I hold a BSCS, BS Mathematics, and work entirely in IP.

Re:Wow

Well ... if the courts and/or Congress needed a reason to rethink the whole idea of software patents, this is certainly a good one. So they want to force Apple to license their "patent", and pay a twelve percent fee for the privilege. Is that off the top or after taxes? Either way, that would probably eliminate any incentive Apple would have to continue in that market. *poof* No more iPods, no more iTunes ... probably no more portable music players since this outfit would presumably go after anyone else in that market if they are successful with Apple.

In the same vein as Microsoft's indirect funding of SCO to make trouble for the competition, Apple should follow the money here too. Is this strictly about enforcing a probably-bogus patent in order to extract money from a successful company (can you say, "submarine"?) or is this an attempt by a third party to bring Apple to heel. Seems kind of fishy right on the heels of the RIAA wanting to jack up iTunes prices. In fact, speaking of the RIAA, and assuming that Apple were to lose this case ... what would you bet that the RIAA would buy that patent outright, and only license "oligopoly friendly" players after that?

is this applicable?

Verbatim, the second line of the article is: "Pat-rights named the technology as 'Internet/Remote User Identity Verification', earned a US Patent 6,665,797 therefor, and world-wide patents pending"

now, i'm not a patent lawyer, but since this company is based in hong-kong, and has no worldwide patents, wouldn't that mean that the patent does not apply? or is an overseas company holding a us patent still able to enforce it's us patents from offshore?

Re:is this applicable?

I believe you're confusing "trademark" with "patent". BMW has the exclusive right to make cars called "BMW", but they are NOT trying to claim an exclusive right to make cars period.

Re:is this applicable?

There's more to IP than just patents, buddy!!

Actually, there's nothing to IP whatsoever; IP is a meaningless concept. Trademark, copyright, and patent law are distinct entities with different rules and purposes. It's fallacious to lump them together under "IP". Your statement about trademark law is almost entirely irrelevant when we're talking about patents.

That said, your basic point was correct; non-US companies can file US patents (as well as trademarks and presumably copyrights) as long as they have a US presence.

Correct, as far as you go

"Intellectual property" is a meaningful term, much like your use of "pets". The problem comes in when someone assumes that it has a legal meaning, and -- worse -- when people intentionally attempt to confuse IP with other forms of property. At that point, to use your metaphor, you're close to saying that putting a dog in a tank of water and feeding it fish food is good for it.

People who deal in the industry call it IP. It's only a stupid Slashdot meme that "IP is meaningless".

It may be pedantic, bad politics, or (frequently, here) misinformed, but distinguishing between different types of rights bundles granted by the state is not "onlya stupid Slashdot meme". The state granting those rights does the same, and one way to oppose those who wish ideas to become perpetual cash fountains is to point out the concepts, law and history that underpins the reasons why the state grants those rights in the first place. Of course, to do so, one must explain the difference between different types of things that fall under the umbrella term "IP".

It's fallacious to lump them together under "IP".

The word "fallacious" is an adjective. If you don't know what a word means, try not using it.

Um, would you care to explain what exactly is wrong with the construction "it is [adj] to [verb] ..."? You're being unclear, so I don't know if you're attacking sentence structure or vocabulary, so I'll go for both: fallacious: 1: embodying a fallacy 2: tending to deceive or mislead. Hm, definition works. You can argue with the content, but not the word choice. OK: let's try sentence structure. Other than a weak voice (writing style, rather than grammatical criticism), there is nothing wrong with it. If you think there is, please explain: what exactly do you think is wrong with the sentence, "It's stupid to correct others when you don't know what you're talking about?"

The actual patent link

The actual patent is interesting to read. Click here to read it [uspto.gov]

Re:The actual patent link

You're looking at the wrong patent. Check out their web site: http://www.pat-rights.com/nsD03_01_2005_T1235.htm [pat-rights.com]

which refers to this patent: Patent 6,665,797 [uspto.gov]

Not a laughing matter anymore.

I guess the "patent pending" avatar used in the story was a tongue-in-cheek joke when it was created. However, with these kind of stories, I fear that it may someday become a reality.

I hope breathing fresh air is never patented.

from the willie-sutton-working-overtime dept...

Q: Who is Willie Sutton?

A: This is Willie Sutton. [fbi.gov]

This is sad.

Reading the linked claim made me want to cry. Based on the reasons they say Apple is infringing on their patent, they must have patented password protection. Or at least password protection over the internet. Novel. The article's worth reading though. It made me giggle and tear up at the same time. Not many things do that.

Suspicious

Is it just me, or is it kinda suspicious that these companies are only getting angry now. I mean, iTunes/iPod is new and hip, but it's been around long enough for other companies to notice patent violations earlier. Seems like these companies only decided to file suits once they saw how much money was being made off the idea (whereas their somewhat similar patent was a total waste...). On a first pass, it sounds like silly lawsuits that will go nowhere.

Difference in 'reasonable'

So the company wants "Apple [to] pay 'a reasonable license fee, 12% of gross sales of iTunes music tracks and iPods."

Hmm, who wants to bet that their version of reasonable differs from their view? That is an outrageously large amount. Let's examine their claim.. From the blog (complete with poorly written English):

It is related to using a payment account information to verify the identity of a user, the payment account may be a credit account, before providing the user access to computer software/apparatus.

Probably you have use it before .

Certainly sounds like their dubious claim is worth 12%, eh? Does anybody think this is legitimate, and shouldn't be laughed out of court ASAP? Basically, they can't even be bothered to formulate their case well - the article is actually worth reading in this case, if only for a chuckle.

Outstanding

Perhaps we will get some action now on dealing with the concept patent issue. Piss off enough of the company's that actually (unfortunalty) run this country and they might have to fix it despite themselves. (IMHO,IANAL)

Great!

The more big companies that get sued for patent infringment, the faster the law will change.

Go scum, inflict some pain!

How ironic

Does anyone else find it incredibly ironic that a Hong Kong-based company is suddenly concerned about patent and IP rights, when China as a whole often turns a blind eye to the whole matter? Yes, I know Hong Kong is a special case within China, but still...talk about a double standard here...

Re:How ironic

The US is the one insisting they take IP rights seriously. So some company takes it seriously, and suddenly everyone is up in arms. Rather than "double standard", I'd call it "deliciously ironic".

Just wait until China starts enforcing patents it decides to grant to it's own companies on any foreign company that wants to operate there. The fun'll really start then.

Internet/Remote User Identity Verification

Internet/Remote User Identity Verification

So much for ssh, telnet, FTP, terminal services, and remote desktop.

These patent lawsuits must stop. They're getting ridiculous.

Re:Internet/Remote User Identity Verification

I really wish people would at least read the links...I've seen 10 posts just like yours, and all it does is distract any discussion away from the actual issue being raised. The apparent claim is that using credit card information to verify identity (ie, you tell eBay your address and give them a credit card number, then they run a CC authorization to see that your information was correct). It is at least specific, if inane. This doesn't even seem like a software patent, more like a business process patent.

Plain English

From the "press release":

The US Patent 6,665,797 is written in plain English, even a layman can read and understand it.

Too bad the press release isn't in plain English.

Woo!

Time for Apple's Ninja Attack Lawyers to do something productive! They've been kinda bored and . . . . suey lately. Now they'll be distracted kicking an ass that deserves it for awhile.