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Apple Agrees to Hold Off on Subpoenas
Posted by
CowboyNeal
on Thu Feb 17, 2005 08:04 PM
from the avoiding-a-pr-nightmare dept.
from the avoiding-a-pr-nightmare dept.
ido writes "Apple has agreed to hold off on serving subpoenas related to their John Doe civil suits against some free press journalists to reveal sources releasing Apple's "trade secrets." This is related to a previous article." The original story has some more background info as well. While Apple is notorious for its secrecy before MacWorlds, Apple probably figured out that dragging people into court usually does little for one's popularity.
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Enough (Score:5, Insightful)
Has Apple made it clear that it can and will do what it takes to suppress any leaks? Yes.
Apple is a profitable company, it doesn't need lawsuits to stay in business, cetainly not chasing its own tail or shooting in the dark lawsuits.
Re:Enough (Score:4, Insightful)
Yes, So much so to show that they are willing to use dirty tactics to supress the first amendment. The target should of been the leak, not the one posting the information.
Has Apple made it clear that it can and will do what it takes to suppress any leaks? Yes.
Actully, no. There are many other ways to identify leaks - the best being drop multiple hooks to people that are suspected, and watch for the fake hook to be posted. Apple chose to misuse the civil laws for it's own bludgeon instead - Stamping on free speech.
Apple is a profitable company, it doesn't need lawsuits to stay in business, cetainly not chasing its own tail or shooting in the dark lawsuits.
then they should of thought of that before doing something as assinine as this lawsuit. It was all Jobs's anger at a percieved "Loss of Thunder" which using the benefit of 20/20 hindsight was the equivalent of a mountain out of a molehill.
I think three seconds should be sufficient.
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Re:Enough (Score:4, Insightful)
Yes, So much so to show that they are willing to use dirty tactics to supress the first amendment. The target should of been the leak, not the one posting the information.
They are trying to target the leak, but to do that they have to find out who it is. The logical person to ask is the reporter. Apple's secrecy about their new products is a well-known fact, and any reporter that has a "confidential source" approach them with details about Apple's next as-yet-unreleased product knows they are receiving trade-secrets and that this is illegal. The reporter's only possible defense is to claim that they didn't realize they were receiving trade-secret information, and considering that's effectively the purpose of those rumor sites, it's a bit like suprnova claiming they don't knowingly host illegal torrents. "Yeah, right, whatever."
Has Apple made it clear that it can and will do what it takes to suppress any leaks? Yes.
Actully, no. There are many other ways to identify leaks - the best being drop multiple hooks to people that are suspected, and watch for the fake hook to be posted. Apple chose to misuse the civil laws for it's own bludgeon instead - Stamping on free speech.
Apple is admittedly going after the easiest target. It's also the most effective target. I wouldn't be surprised if the "anonymous source" received something in return for his information. As long as there's someone willing to hand something out, there will be takers. Apple has already used "hooks" more than once to identify (and terminate) leaks. It's just a game of whack-a-mole though, as there are probably dozens of anonymous sources at work in Apple. The reporters are the other end of the chain, and are stationary targets. Apple is going after both ends of the deal, but really, which one makes more sense to go after, from either a resource perspective OR an effectiveness perspective?
Looked at another way... if my laptop is stolen, and a week later I find it at Joe's Pawn Shop across town, and it still has the nameplate on the lid that says "this laptop is property of (myname), if found, please call (phone number)", I should have every right to be pissed off at the pawn shop owner for not having contacted me, AND I think it's quite fair that I expect the pawn shop owner to turn over the name of the person that pawned it to the police. Accepting stolen property is illegal. Accepting property you resonably believe to be stolen is also illegal. There should not be much difference between property and trade secrets, they should be treated the same for these purposes.
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Not quite... (Score:5, Insightful)
Pre-teen girl: Lyke OMG!!1!11!1!!! did u c how apple dragged all the peeps to court or somethin'?? I totalie wont by a ipOd now!
Ya...I don't think it'll shake down that way....
Ahahahaha! (Score:4, Funny)
Thanks!
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The Real Deal (Score:5, Interesting)
They probably caught the employee who was leaking.
Apple makes the right choice again (Score:4, Insightful)
No one wants to see the fans and lovers of the Macintosh persecuted for trying to find ways to love the company more, and that's what this is: just another way for Mac fans to find out more about the company.
On the other hand, it is perfectly understandable, as it is part of business, to keep future plans as secret as possible to keep the dogs on Wall Street at bay. However, it was really disappointing to see Apple trying to exact its revenge on those who love it the most.
I'm glad Steve Jobs made this decision. He continues to lead the company in the right direction and bringing us, the loyal Apple fans, the most advanced computers of today.
Re:Apple makes the right choice again (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Apple makes the right choice again (Score:5, Insightful)
No, it can unreasonably raise expectations to the point that reality becomes underwhelming.
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Re:Apple makes the right choice again (Score:5, Insightful)
Steve (and I have a *lot* of respect for the guy) is as hard-nosed as the next businessman. Apple's been around for a looong time now (in computer-time, of course) and it's a professional organisation now, with all that that entails.
Steve (if it was him that made the final decision - it could have been 'Legal') won't have done it to be cuddly. He'll have done it for sound business reasons - the best path for the business is to do X, we'll do X. It could be that he thinks perhaps he's put the fear of [insert random deity] into those who would have continued to leak, and he's satisfied with that... It could be that Apple really do have to do more before they can issue subpoenas.
Apple's a cool company. They make cool hardware and the best damn unix workstation I've ever used (prior to OSX I wasn't impressed, but I am now
Simon.
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Re:Apple makes the right choice again (Score:5, Funny)
You work for Apple's PR department, don't you.
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Re: Apple makes the right choice again (Score:4, Insightful)
It's not a matter of revenge. It's a matter of trying to find out who in their own organisation is leaking information in breach of their NDA. Isn't that a more reasonable aim?
It's also a matter of trying to prevent the more gratuitous rumours spreading. You can argue all you want that rumours are good for Apple, and maybe some are, but they're a double-edge sword, and one that Apple has no control over. For example, an over-optimistic rumour, or even a completely true but mistimed one, could easily cause large numbers of people to hold off buying one particular model in the false expectation that something better was about to be released. That sort of thing could do quite serious damage.
While the rumour sites are just guesswork and good-natured speculation, then they're relatively harmless; but when they get a reputation for inside information and lots of people start trusting them, then I don't think they're doing anyone any good in the long run, not even Apple fans.
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Re:Apple makes the right choice again (Score:5, Insightful)
Like if I got your credit card number, and published it on my website?
Whether we value it or not, these details are the heart of Apple; Apple's products are their monetary core, their creative core, their everything.
If a competitor gains an advantage through these publications and rumors, then it is Apple that gets hurt; not the rumor sites (though maybe indirectly), not the readers (again, maybe indirectly), but Apple.
So I ask again: Apple is trampling our fundamental right to share sensitive and private data, and you think it's okay that they've backed off? Wait until someone gets insider info from a credit card warehousing company and publishes it online.
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Re:Apple makes the right choice again (Score:5, Insightful)
What Apple has done is the opposite actually, using legislation (subpoenas) to force these people to TALK. A subpoena is, "A command to a witness to appear and give testimony."
So what is the First Amendment right we're losing? The right to remain silent? No speech has been abridged, no press has been silenced.
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Makes no difference (Score:5, Insightful)
The fact is they know they can scare off other websites in the future with legal action, and they'll continue to do so--that they ended up having to put their money where their mouth was here is simply to show that they'll actually take the first steps if necessary.
This site was an exception to the rule--the rule being, if you are a large corporation, you can send a takedown notice anywhere for any reason, no matter how spurious, and 99% of the people will comply. That is still true today, and the fact that Apple finally was called on one bluff really doesn't change much.
this won't be popular (Score:5, Insightful)
i don't think the journalists should be required to divulge their sources... i really don't
however, i don't think that those who try to turn their backs on NDAs for personal gains should be protected
i was kinda interested to see how the whole suit would pan out in court... i thought the EFFs argument was sound, but apple seemed to have a strong case
i was really curious about how that one would go
Re:this won't be popular (Score:5, Insightful)
There's nowhere in 'freedom of the press' that says no one has to say where or how they got the information they pressed. Journalists claim that keeping sources secret is needed to get ahold of some information in the first place but we should all remember that journalists and their sources are fallable people with personal biases. It's way too often (especially recently) used to promote the journalist's personal agenda to make an indignant show of "protecting" sources. As if how dare anyone question a journalist! Well, if you can't reveal the source so its validity can be confirmed then it's an unsubstantiated rumor; journalists who say 'someone told me x but I can't tell you who so you can have a way to verify my story' should be laughed out of town.
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The facts are more nuanced (Score:5, Interesting)
"Newitz said that "Apple may have a case" in suing anonymous individuals for violations of the Uniform Trade Secrets Act (the Act holds liable those who receive trade secrets that were knowingly misappropriated), "but the issue is how they're getting the information." She said that Apple's actions are following a "tortured route" and that the company seems to be attempting to "beat these journalists with litigation."
The EFF's position is that the Web sites in question are viable journalistic endeavors, which places their writers under reporter shield laws, both at the federal and state level.
The federal shield law, which is based on the First Amendment, guarantees the "free flow of information" and allows reporters to assure sources that they will remain anonymous.
"There is a loophole--it's not that a reporter never has to give up information," Newitz said. "They can be forced to reveal sources only if every other source is exhausted." Newitz said that she felt Apple has not come close to examining other potential methods of identifying the parties who leaked confidential information; she said that to her knowledge, Apple has never performed or admitted to performing an internal investigation into NDA (nondisclosure agreement) violations.
The facts of this case are a bit more nuanced than I have seen discussed so far. Does the First Amendment protect a reporter's right to withhold identify his or her anonymous sources? Yes. There are times when a reporter is asked to break this bond, and we are seeing a current case [theglobeandmail.com] over the probable felony that resulted from revealing Valerie Plame's CIA affiliation where the issues are much more serious than this Apple business. In this more serious case, a crime was committed, and a couple of levels of courts have ordered the reporters to identify their sources or else face contempt charges. The New York Times, among others, continues to fight this pressure to reveal anonymous sources so as to protect the precendent for future anonymous sources.
This Apple case is not nearly as important, and no court is going to go around ordering reporters to reveal Apple news sources the way they are with those associated with the White House who may have committed a felony. And not only is the Apple case involving less serious information, it seems Apple hasn't even done the basics first: Conduct thorough in-house investigation into which employee is doing the leaking. Even the EFF says that once Apple has done everything else, forcing a news source to report the identity of an anonymous source might be on the table, from the legal perspective.
So for now, Apple is backing down. But this is not the clear-cut case that we've seen. It may yet come down to the Apple news sites being asked to reveal their sources, for it may well be that some Apple employees are violating the terms of their employment. And that's what Apple is really trying to do: Find employees who are violating contract rules. But first they have to do everything else to find out this information before they think of asking a reporter to give up his or her information. But that could yet happen.
"Does little for one's popularity (Score:4, Insightful)
More likely, their mission of letting people know they take product leaks seriously was accomplished. I always expected them to drop the suits--they were just saying, "Hey, we can't have our shit getting leaked, and we are not afraid to pursue it legally if we have to."
No ... (Score:5, Insightful)
No, they're just saving themselves paperwork. No point filing until the Superior Court of Santa Clara County rules. Nothing moderate or altruistic happening yet.
"What is a 'journalist'?" (Score:4, Insightful)
"A person is acting in a journalist capacity when they provide non fiction information about contemporary events to an audience [via a medium other than direct speech]. Those are the criteria." [slashdot.org]
"I don't see why bloggers can't be considered journalists." [slashdot.org]
"...anyone can be a journalist if by journalist you mean someone who distributes information (regardless of accuracy) to a public audience (regardless of size). Bloggers? They're journalists. Editor of your high school newspaper? Yep, journalist, too." [slashdot.org]
"I think that many websites constitute being called a 'journal'
"...a journalist is anyone who can get their documented beliefs published." [slashdot.org]
"Even the lamest 'blog is a "journal" unarguably. So yes, anyone with a web site is a "journalist". The government should not get into the business of determining who's a "legitimate journalist" and who's a "illegitimate journalist not worthy of the protections of freedom of the press". To do so would amount to licensing journalists, which I think is very much the wrong idea." [slashdot.org]
"It's 2005. "Journalism" means everything and everything." [slashdot.org]
"A journalist is anyone reporting news to the public. That could be by handbill, newspaper, broadside, web site, word of mouth, by scribbling on a piece of paper. It should be as broad as possible. Spreading of information == good." [slashdot.org]
Now, considering all of these replies that insist that Nick Ciarelli (of Think Secret) and these other websites are "journalists", and anyone who's apparently got any kind of website at all on any topuc should be considered a "journalist", certainly that means that Jeff Gannon (aka James Guckert) is a "journalist" too?
Or does it not work both ways?
Oh, so that's how it's done (Score:5, Insightful)
1. Get some information on future Apple products.
2. Make a web-site with said information.
3. Call yourself a "journalist" to protect the people who leaked the information.
4. Sell adverts on the site so that you can...
5. Profit!!!
The idea behind protecting a journalist's sources is so that people will talk to reporters in confidence, particularly about shady goings on, so that journalists can be free to expose all the gory details without fear. That's all very laudable.
This is different. Here the leak itself is the shady thing. Some guy is breaking his NDA for some unknown reason - money, fame, revenge, make himself feel good, whatever. "Think Secret" was even soliciting people to talk to them about Apple's trade secrets.
There's no dark dangerous secret here that needs to be exposed for the public good. This isn't about protecting a journalist's sources. It's just greed. This guy is not a journalist, he's merely exposing other people's secrets to make money. Calling himself a journalist doesn't make it so.
Astoundingly Inaccurate (Score:5, Informative)
Please keep in mind that the entire linked article is based on spin from a policy analyst for the EFF. Also contrary to what was reported in MacWorld and in the documents filed by the EFF, no email has been turned over to Apple.
Thanks for the factual analysis! (Score:5, Funny)
I think it's because all Mac users are artists, and artists are all very emotional and tend to be poor with numbers. So even though they're spending more, they don't even realize it. Silly artists!
What I don't understand is why the universities and government agencies that are using Macs for clustering and other uses are buying computers that are twice as expensive and half as capable. It must be that these purchasers are part of the loyal "Apple fan base," sort of like Milwaukee Brewers fans. They hang tough and spend the money only because they feel a special attachment to Apple, rather than because Apple products have any real worth.
You're right about Apple dumping on their customers and fans too. Did you hear about the time Steve Jobs cancelled the second day of his concert in Boston, and nobody who bought tickets even got a refund? What an arrogant bastard!
Personally I'll stick with the alternatives. IE 6 kicks ass, my Windows XP system never gives me any security problems, and I like buying new hardware every two years, because it guarantees I'll be able to brag about the CPU speed of my computer to my buddies.
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Of course it's about the NDA (Score:5, Insightful)
If TS had published info and specs about the iPod mini four months in advance and Creative, Sony, and Dell all released similar products two weeks in advance, why don't you think that would qualify as a 'trade secret'?
It's a secret of the craft, the art of product design and manufacturing, because until it has been released, no one has done it before.
The same with the first iPod; no one had released something as small, as fast, or as usable, so it literally was unique.
Why, if Pepsi got Coke's secret formula and could manufacture Coke, and Creative obtained Apple's "secret formula" and could manufacture iPod minis, doesn't the similarities suggest that product information qualifies for trade secret status?
Of course it helps Apple that it's competition are all lame; years after the release of the iPod and mini, no competitor has yet figured out how to duplicate the "secret sauce" even though it's open and available to the public!
(Hint: Freely available Jukebox that doesn't suck. Simpler designs, less is more. Connect the two)
Creative has almost got the design right: Their new Zen Micros have a supremely clean design, but there's no software to download; I can't play with their music manager before I can buy a Zen, so I can't evaluate how the music organization works. Even worse, I know there exists software call NotMad to replace Creative's own software. That's how much they suck.
The same with the Archos Jukebox, in which someone has implemented their own firmware, called RockBox, to fix the deficiencies in the product!
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