What Do Court-Ordered Internet Bans Really Mean?

tcd004 writes "Chris Lamprecht, a.k.a. Minor Threat, was the first person to be banned from the internet back in 1995. Since then, the practice has gained popularity worldwide. In the last year, courts in Australia, Britain, Canada, and the United States have all banned people from the Internet. A British court recently banned a convicted pedophile specifically from entering chatrooms for 10 years. But how effective are the bans? Minor Threat contends that the rules governing his internet ban use were toothless. How much harder is it to keep people off the internet in an age when everything--from parking meters to refrigerators--comes with an IP address." (Note: the Globe and Mail story requires registration.)

I'm banned

[Anonymous Coward]

Not sure how well it works for others, but I'm banned from the internet....

No different from other court orders

[EmbeddedJanitor]

There's nothing magic because the internet is involved.

Court orders that ban people from driving very seldom actually stop people from driving.

Court orders that ban people from going near someone they were harrassing/assualting/stalking seldom work.

Re:No different from other court orders

[DunbarTheInept]

Yeah, but everyone, no matter how clueless, understands what it means to drive. Everyone knows what it means to harass. But an awful lot of people don't actually understand what the phrase "the internet" refers to, and don't understand how ubiquitous it really is. In 1995 it wouldn't have been a problem to live without internet. Today it is still possible, but it is a bit limiting. A few years down the road I predict it will be next to impossible to avoid the internet and still be an active member of civilization. Avoiding the internet is going to mean never using a bank, never paying for anything with any means besides cash, never using a store, never having the ability to make remote contact (have to come to your house to talk to you since telephone service will merge with internet service.)

The internet is a lot more than "that thar web thingy", and it is becoming more so with each passing year.

There is something "magic" about the internet that makes it different - it is not an end-infrastructure in itself - it's an enabling infrastructure that other infrastructures are built on top of, and more and more necessary infrastructures of society are moving onto it.

Eventually "you can't use the internet" will be like "You can't use electricity."

Re:No different from other court orders

[ColdGrits]

"Avoiding the internet is going to mean never using a bank, never paying for anything with any means besides cash, never using a store"

Utter nonsense.

No matter how pervasive the internet becomes, walking into a store, picking up an item, walking to the paydesk and paying for the item will not involve the customer using the internet.

Sure, the back-end may be entirly network based, but the CUSTOMER is not using that backend.

Oh, and if your shop does have all its backend processing handled via the internet

Re:No different from other court orders

[pla]

No matter how pervasive the internet becomes, walking into a store, picking up an item, walking to the paydesk and paying for the item will not involve the customer using the internet.

You make the assumption that physical stores themselves won't go the way of the dodo.

Now, I don't think that will happen "within a few years", but it seems like a very real trend. Perhaps within a few decades, the only brick-and-mortar stores around will have hideous prices and only exist to cater to wealthy retro-luddit

Re:I'm banned

[rat7307]

What do they actually do? I'm just curious what the governments do in an attempt to keep you from it.

Same as they do if you have your car licence taken from you.

A judge says "Dont go on the internet" and if you get caught again for a similar crime, you get serious pound-the-in-the-ass prison time.

There's no need for elaborate IP tracking or anything.

Dumbasses tend to re-offend anyhow.....

Re:I'm banned

[skotte]

i have a sort of fFriend (he's a bit of a dumbass and i'm reluctant to call him a fFriend -- he is, after all, a convicted criminal) who was ordered he may not live in a household with internet access.

fFor a time, this was enforced by him being under house arrest and a parole officer stopped by every now and then to check on things. at this point, his parole officer still comes by, by the inspections are much less stringent.

the answer to the topic here is: the courts dont really check so much. to wit, my example-person has perfectly good internet access on his mobile phone. his wife discreetly got an AOL account and logs in now and then. and of course he can swing by any public lab or internet cafe'.

now, officially, if the courts were asked fFor their stance on pedantry like the parking meter example, they would surely come out on the side of reason, stating the convicted may use anything without interactive connections to other users, or something delicately worded.

officially, of course, the "no internet" sentencing means just that: none. nadda. just as "no drug use" includes poppy seeds and sometimes caffeine.

Same as always

[koreaman]

Before computers, there were difficulties getting people to respect parole and probation.

With computers, there are difficulties getting people to respect parole and probation.

But we seem to have dealt with the problem so far, so why can't we deal with it nowadays?

Re:Same as always

[bob65]

short-sighted judges who can't (like the rest of us) predict what will come next.

We *can* predict what will come next? I don't think I can ...

Re:Same as always

[ScrewMaster]

Go ask that Sollog character. I'm sure he'd have an answer.

Internet Ban

[OneArmedMan]

Better not let em near touch tone phones either, just in case they want to launch a Nuclear strike! ...

Re:Internet Ban

[sexysciencegirl]

I assume you're referring to Kevin Mitnick's case where he was refused a phone call. This one actually made some sense from the law-enforcement point of view. We just need to pretend we are the police and start with the assumption that Kevin is indeed a powerful hacker-terrorist committed to causing death and destruction. Now what would a hacker-terrorist do for a contingency plan? He would set up his most devastating hacking scripts and make them activatable by a modem listening on a dedicated phone line. And all you need to launch the attack is a phone call to a specific number. Of course, Kevin was actually a pretty different character but the authorities didn't really have any way of verifying that this was the case.

Re:Internet Ban

[c]

He would set up his most devastating hacking scripts and make them activatable by a modem listening on a dedicated phone line. And all you need to launch the attack is a phone call to a specific number.

Right. He's been caught for hacking (or whatever), so now he'll add fuel to the fire by launching a devastating attack from a police station phone. Assuming he can actually reach the number (some places restrict calls to local numbers only).

In order to have maximum deniability and guarantee the launch, th

Re:Internet Ban

[evilviper]

And all you need to launch the attack is a phone call to a specific number.

But the same could easily be said for kidnappers, yet they still get their one phone-call.

Besides, Mitnick wasn't charged with murder, and facing a lifetime in jail, so it's pretty absurd to jump to the conclusion that he would even desire to launch a nuclear attack...

There's more risk someone would call in a hit on a judge/witness/prosecuter, yet criminals still get their one phone call.

Re:Internet Ban

[dark_requiem]

You are operating under the assumption of guilty until proven innocent. Mitnick stole source code, which I most certainly do not condone, but he by no means attempted to commit acts of terrorism, death, or destruction, nor did he provide any probable cause to suspect him of such intentions. This is the entire basis of (pre-neo-con) American law. Law enforcement must always take a back seat to innate rights, or freedom loses, not criminals. When law enforcement supersedes innate rights, you have, by defi

Re:Internet Ban

[Zeinfeld]

He would set up his most devastating hacking scripts and make them activatable by a modem listening on a dedicated phone line. And all you need to launch the attack is a phone call to a specific number. Of course, Kevin was actually a pretty different character but the authorities didn't really have any way of verifying that this was the case.

That is exactly the sort of thing he did, repeatedly.

Outlaws have always attracted support from the gullible who want to romanticize their behaviors. The fact is that Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid were both brutal murderers, same for Bonnie and Clyde. Mitnick didn't kill people but he did his best to make life very unpleasant for a lot of people.

The point is that a person arrested for making harassing telephone calls does not get to use their telephone call to call their victim. There is no right to a telephone call, only to have someone contacted which can be on your behalf if the police choose.

Re:Internet Ban

[xchino]

"Of course, Kevin was actually a pretty different character but the authorities didn't really have any way of verifying that this was the case."

Nor do they have any way of varifying that my one phone call wont do the exact same, nor yours, nor anyone elses. We have the presumption of innocence in this country, and it's one of those troublesome rights given to us by our misguided founders. Of course, I'd like to make a phone call in that same situation, I'm sure you would too, but it's ok to forget about due process if it's someone else, right? I dont care if they thought the guy was Hitler reincarnate, he was an american citizen and deserved the same fair treatment as you or I.

Re:Internet Ban

[Tim C]

So, are you legally entitled to that one phone call, or are you legally entitled to contact someone (lawyer, friend, family member, etc)? That is, is it an unquestionable violation of your rights if they refuse to allow you to make the call but give you pen and paper to send a letter, or offer to go pick the person up and bring them in to talk face to face, etc? If so, can you point to the statute that makes it such?

Not trying to be an arse, but I would have thought that the point is to allow the prisoner to contact the outside world, *not* to give them a phone call. For instance, what of a mute? Do they have no right to contact, because they can't use a phone?

Re:Internet Ban

[Lost Race]

It doesn't even matter whether he was an American citizen. The rights recognized by the US Constitution are innate human rights; everybody has them.

Re:Internet Ban

[jasonditz]

I'm sure I'm not the only person uncomfortable with giving police free reign every time they run into a situation they don't understand.

Re:The presumption of innocence

[doodlelogic]

[In America...] While in custody you have the right to humane treatment, the right to remain silent and the right to contact a lawyer, a family member, or the like for help. But that is pretty much the limit.

That's bizzare. Here in Britain we have not historically had any constitutionally guaranteed rights, however a prisoner on remand retains all their rights other than those necessarily removed from them by the fact of their incarceration or specifically removed by legislation. I would have assumed that in the Land of the Free protections of the innocent would be even greater...

Re:Internet Ban

[DissidentHere]

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha, Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha, Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha, Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha, sorry, my stomach hurts.

You've never been picked up for anything, even for anything as simple as a speeding ticket, have you?

While the law says you are innocent until proven guilty, the reality is, you suffer the consequences until proven innocent.

For example, in my state, if you get a speeding ticket, you are expected to pay the fine unless you show up in court and defend yourself. Therefore, guilty until

Banned from the Internet?

[Anonymous Coward]

Easy just use the Internet2.

Re:Banned from the Internet?

[Phroggy]

Or one of the other Internets GW Bush mentioned.

Re:Banned from the Internet?

[Geoffreyerffoeg]

Will you get presidentially pardoned, so that you can use the internets?

Re:Banned from the Internet?

[Kenshin]

Or, alternately:

"It's not the internet... it's AOL!"

Re:Banned from the Internet?

[ScrewMaster]

Actually, the TV ad said, "AOL ... it's the Internet ... and a whole lot more!"

Re:Banned from the Internet?

[aussie_a]

I find your characterisation of Australia as a wasteland offensive. Now excuse me I have to go back to creating my child porno films.

Terms

[dirkdidit]

With voice over IP becoming more common place with carriers like Vonage, etc., phone calls are starting to travel over the internet. Does an internet ban mean they are banned from all things internet? If it does, some people may screwed 5 or 10 years down the road when it comes to even using a telephone, as they too will use the internet.

Re:Terms

[dark_requiem]

That was the problem with the Mitnick case, if I understood it correctly. The way I heard it, the judge in the case banned him from using a computer, in general, for professional or personal reasons, for some number of years. Which prevents him from doing anything but manual labor. McDonalds uses computers for taking orders, so he couldn't even work there. I could be mistaken, but that was what I was given for the details of the case. Of course, I was 16 and rather impressionable at the time, and I was

Specific to anglo-american law system

[yanestra]

These bans are very specific to the anglo-american law system, I suppose. It works by threatening with punishment for "contempt of court", which is a construct, I think, not present in any other modern law system.

It shouldn't be there either, because it opens the door to pure arbitrariness.

Re:Specific to anglo-american law system

[konekoniku]

it does open the door to arbitrariness, but lets face it - anything that involves the interpretation of law with regards to human society involves a large degree of flexibility (and thus arbitrariness) anyway. this is true for code and well as common law systems. and actually, though IANAL, on first glance i doubt this is true - that code law systems don't have a misdemeanor analagous to "contempt of the court," even if those exact words might not be used. can anyone verify?

Re:Specific to anglo-american law system

[CustomFort]

I am afraid that you do not understand the subject matter. These terms would be parts of parole, not Contempt of Court. Parole is basically the prisoner trading hard time for external life, with extreme restrictions.

Contempt of court (in the American System) has two forms of occurence and two forms of punishment. There are Direct (telling the judge to go fuck himself) and Indirect (disobeying a court ordered moratorium on proceedings) forms. The punishment can be either Criminal (jail time) or Civil (removal from the courtroom). Civil punishment ceases once compliance with the judge's orders are met, and Criminal punishment requires a trial, with proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

I really don't see too much room for "pure arbitrariness", because Judges who act improperly can be censured, and federal judges can be impeached. Local judges are typically elected officials, so they have the same responsibilities to the public as say the sheriff, who has far more power.

I am sorry that you seem to think that it opens the door to "pure arbitrariness", but doesn't giving any position of power do the same? I would hope that we have enough faith in the judicial system that this small bit of power isn't so abused as to be to a net deficit?

Re:Specific to anglo-american law system

[nomadic]

It shouldn't be there either, because it opens the door to pure arbitrariness.

If judges don't have the ability to find people in contempt, then court orders become voluntary, which is kind of the opposite of the point.

And contempt charges are especially easy to appeal, and they're routinely overturned.

Re:Specific to anglo-american law system

[yanestra]

But then, perhaps you meant to include those countries in the designation "anglo-american?"

Their law system is basing on the old system which was founded by William the Conqueror. I guess that's bad luck, but it doesn't mean that they are all Anglo-Americans. No, at least the Australians would object, I suppose.

Re:Specific to anglo-american law system

[T-Ranger]

The phrase you are looking for is "English Common Law".

Re:Specific to anglo-american law system

[kalidasa]

Exactly, in opposition to (e.g.) "Roman Law" (the basis of the Napoleonic Code and many other European-originated law codes), which comes out of Justinian. IANAL.

Re:Specific to anglo-american law system

[secolactico]

Why would Canada and Austrailia be offended by "anglo-american"?

Because we're not American?

Sure you are. Just what continent do you think Canada is on?

Re:Specific to anglo-american law system

[hunterx11]

You were still willing to join NAFTA.

Zero Cool

[LewsTherinKinslayer]

The term "internet" is a damn broad statement in and of itself. I think that has a lot to do with just exactly where to draw a line as to what's considered using the internet or not. Touchtone telephones for example. A grey area.

I'd say that the aforementioned pedophile's example was quite a bit different. He has a rule like "no chat rooms for 10 years." I'd say a chat room is fairly easy to define, and a much clearer cut case.

Also, the "toothless" threat of this is just like the "toothless" threat that is given to people on parole or probation for drug offenses. You can't be around anyone who is using drugs as part of the deal. Can they really enforce that too effectively? Its supposed to be a point. Something you're supposed to regulate yourself on, because, on the off chance they do find out, you're in a whole world of trouble.

right- it's exactly about terms

[conJunk]

The term "internet" is a damn broad statement in and of itself. I think that has a lot to do with just exactly where to draw a line as to what's considered using the internet or not

that's exactly the question- what is using the internet, and, how reasonable is such a punishment as internet usage becomes even more common than it is now?

10, or even 5 years ago, you could get by without an email address... you could have a normal family life, and an almost normal job, and never think about email... but no

idiocy

[poptones]

How the fuck does banning a pedophile from the internet protect children? Can he molest a child through the screen? Can a chat room allow him access to a child's naughty bits?

If you want to make sure pedophiles stay away from children you ban them from contact with children, not from contact with an electronic information service. Banning someone from the internet amounts to thought control (which is, in actuality, the goal here - to take them away from others who support the notion maybe pedophilia isn't

Re:Zero Cool

[QuantumG]

A "chat room" is easy to define? Oh please, go ahead, define it. Maybe I'm just not hip to the lingo like those groovy judges these days, but the only time I've ever heard the term "chat room" uttered by another human being is when I'm watching some outdated/ill-informed tv show. I vaguely remember AOL lusers calling IRC channels a "chat room" back around 1997 when AOL gave up trying to keep them off the net and opened the flood gates. But hey, I'm sure there's some weirdos out there that consider Slash

Re:Zero Cool

[superpulpsicle]

All this convicted person has to do is write his java chatroom on some website, and he'll own 100% of the code. He can make his own rules, and others who join it has to play by it. Not that he would... but he could.

Working globeandmail.com login

[IO ERROR]

Freshly registered during The Mysterious Past:

Login: CowboyNeal
Password: CowboyNeal

Re:Working globeandmail.com login

[IO ERROR]

Hmph, well, it was working. Some AC posted the article text in the meantime, though.

what I think it means is

[WormholeFiend]

If you're banned by the court to normally legal X activity, and you are caught doing X activity, then you can be fined and/or sent to jail.

Re:what I think it means is

[WhatAmIDoingHere]

Oh shit, thanks captain slappy!

Are you being a smart ass or are you really that stupid?

AOL

[Anonymous Coward]

I think if someone is banned from the Internet for hacking they should be forced to use AOL, dial-up, version 1.5.

Re:AOL

[chaffed]

I think that qualifies as Cruel and Unsual Punishment [wikipedia.org]

The "unusual" provision, at least, is clear: providing that persons will not be subjected to arbitrary, humiliating, or carpricious punishment outside the normal course of the law

Re:AOL

[IO ERROR]

Being forced to use AOL is punishment in and of itself!

Re:AOL

[PedanticSpellingTrol]

Heh... When I first went of to university last year with my shiny new DIY computer, one of the first thoughts that came into my mind was "gee, here I am with a 2 Ghz processor, half-gig of ram and 24 Mbit connection to the internet.... let's see what Windows 3.11 can do with it". Suprisingly, there's software out there for all the tasks I normallu use my desktop for... web browsing, IM, watching DIVX encoded movies... should've had an older video card with a fully compatible driver though. Pr0n just isn't

Did you know?

[Prophetic_Truth]

Minor Threat along with Mucho Maas authored ToneLoc [securityfocus.com], a great war dialer. Hours upon hours I sat, watched, and listened while it scanned. Great Stuff..

Re:Did you know?

[QuantumG]

Ahh ToneLoc, those were the days. Here in Australia we used to have 008 freecall numbers (now we have 1800 numbers like the rest of the world). I remember I scanned a block of 10,000 numbers over the course of a week. I got a nasty little letter from the national telephone carrier Telstra warning me not to abuse the telephone system. I remember calling them up and demanding what the hell their problem was. "It's a free call, I can make as many as I wish" I said. They told me there had been a complaint. Some travel lodge claimed they had received over a hundred calls with no-one on the other end (the call would last nothing more than 1 or 2 seconds before the modem dropped the connection and moved onto the next number). I insisted that I had called each number in the block no more than once in the entire scan. Telstra sent me a list of dates and times for the calls that had been connected to the complaining travel lodge's phone. There was over 300 calls that had been connected. I correlated the times that Telstra had sent with my scan logs and found that Telstra had routed three 100 number blocks to the same telephone. Once I explained this to the technician who had been assigned the matter he immediately found and corrected the problem. These days I suppose they would have just sent the cops around to arrest me on some trumped up terrorist charge or something.

Re:Did you know?

[mindstrm]

The basic idea is to have a computer + modem call every number in an exchange and log which ones were answered by modems.

Re:Did you know?

[DunbarTheInept]

"make a phone call without intent to communicate".

That describes every telemarketing call I've ever heard.

Re:Did you know?

[danila]

So wardialing is legal, as long as your modem (voice modem) first says "I am going to test for the presence of a modem on this line"? IANAL, just looking for loopholes.

Re:Did you know?

[constandinos]

Sure do. Chris is a friend of Cerebrum and myself (tel0p). ToneLoc rocked. I even wrote a 'port' for my Commi 128 (with notification to boot ;). Fun times indeed. After a while I was 'banned' from the 'net' as well. In fact, I had to get permission to even use a computer (for college). [ due to a conviction for computer trespass into Boeing and the USDistrict court here in Seattle ].. the high-point of the 'ban' was when my USPO came into my bedroom, got on her hands and knees under my desk, and looked for

Tantamount

[KillerDeathRobot]

A ban from the internet for me would be tantamount to a death sentence.

Me too...

[mrchaotica]

...I'm a 'bot!

Re:Tantamount

[aussie_a]

There is more to life then the Internet. There's Internet2.

Re:Tantamount

[NekoIncardine]

Niiiiiiice. I suspect that such bans from "the Internet" will begin to be tested soon enough, until the judges decide that it's easier to simply stick to assigning jail time. Bans from "Chat Rooms", however, as a far more definable offense, can stand effectively and may become an important tool in pedophile removal.

Punative jeopardy

[bm17]

I would think that the point of something like this is to make sentencing easier if a person is caught for the same crime. Maybe there will be a point where they think the person has commited another crime and I'll the evidence that they have is the web activity. That would be enough to bring him in for questioning. And if they did convict him for this new crime, the penelty would be that much more severe if they could also pin breaking the Internet ban on him. I doubt that they expect to actually enforce the ban.

Job Requirements

[Detritus]

At many jobs, a networked PC is standard office equipment and is needed for corporate email, time cards, etc. Would a court tell a convicted forger that he was prohibited from using pen and paper?

This would be difficult

[durtbag]

I cannot imagine a punishment like that. I mean how many people needto use the WWW/Internet for school and work? Would they force you to resign from your job and/or change your major because you can no longer use the internet? This isn't like drunk drivers being banned from drinking. Alcohol isn't *cough* necesarry *cough* for most jobs.

Re:This would be difficult

[beerits]

This isn't like drunk drivers being banned from drinking.

No it isn't. It is more like banning drunk drivers from driving.

Re:This would be difficult

[YrWrstNtmr]

Quite often, its the same in the States. "You may drive to and from work, or in the capacity of your duties". And to my mind, that is completely wrong.

Get caught drunk driving, and it should be "no driving". Period. No excuses, no 'to and from work'. Figure out a different way to get there. If you can't, well...you shouldn't have driven drunk.

Re:This would be difficult

[konekoniku]

This is why it's called a "punishment." The penalty is intentionally meant to deter. It's like taking away people's drivers licenses - having a car is necessary for many jobs too, but the public seems to agree it's a valid punishment in some circumstances.

Slippery slope?

[Cervantes]

Does anyone else worry that such bans will become more commonplace on non-technically oriented crimes?

I mean, I recall (possibly incorrectly) that the journalist who was just given house arrest for not revealing his sources is banned from the net.

How long before smoking pot bans you from the net? Or protesting? ;-)

With the Internet as the primary communications method for the world (or at least the backbone for the various protocols), how long before repressive governments use this to suppress those who's opinions they don't like?

Would it be so clear-cut if you, convicted of a non-technical crime, were banned from sending snail-mail or using the telephone for a year?

What about a device worn...

[Chatmag]

on the ankle, similar to the tracking ankle devices, and that would give a shock every time the person is near a computer? Surely there has to be some low frequency emissions from computers in general that a device can be tuned to, producing a reaction.

Re:What about a device worn...

[Stevyn]

That's an insane idea. First of all, it's brutal and punitive. And going near a computer isn't a violation of the probation, using one is. What happens when he walks into any office building? A doctor's office or a dentist's office? He gets a shock?

Re:What about a device worn...

[ScrewMaster]

Yeah ... or when I turn my cell phone on.

Re:What about a device worn...

[Chatmag]

The idea as written will remain insane to you until its your child being molested.

If you think the idea is insane, remember we're talking about a pedophile. Wander over to NANAE sometime, and check out the posts with suggestions for dealing with spammers, an obviously lesser crime than child molestation. In particular the thinly veiled threat to firebomb the same NOC that houses my servers. There were some spammers leasing rack space in the NOC, not connected in any way to myself, and the problems had been dealth with by the hosting provider.

Come on now, think about it. I didnt mean a "knee knocking" jolt, just a tingle. But there are other variations that could be done such as sending a signal to the police, similar to the tracking ankle bracelets worn now by some home confined felons.

Maybe I'll look into patents, you never know.

This is easy to fix

[anon*127.0.0.1]

1) Have every website to require registration.
2) Give the websites a list of the people who have been banned.
3) If a banned person signs up for a website, shoot them!

I'll be solving world hunger next week.

Only means something to the tech-ignorant

[Saeger]

Trying to legally ban someone from using a device connected to the internet is just as futile as trying to ban him from using the phone network, or a vocal network, but that won't stop judges from trying anyway.

The only way to effectively ban someone from something as ubiquitous as the internet would be to either put him in a (faraday) prison, or track him every second of the day with police state measures.

Re:Only means something to the tech-ignorant

[konekoniku]

Or rely on deterrence. There's more than one way to stop crime - just because shops don't all have armed security guards doesn't mean criminalizing robbery is futile.

Re:Only means something to the tech-ignorant

[Fulcrum of Evil]

There's more than one way to stop crime - just because shops don't all have armed security guards doesn't mean criminalizing robbery is futile.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't robbery illegal gfor everybody? Banning only applies to the banned.

Re:Only means something to the tech-ignorant

[Fulcrum of Evil]

Are you arguing against the idea of convict-specific punishment, or against the idea of criminal deterrence? If you're against convict-specific punishment, as it appears you are from your post, then I suppose you also oppose such things as house arrests, prison sentences, and parole. Each of those bans convicts from doing things most normal people are allowed.

I oppose convict specific bans that extend past the end of the prison sentence. Banning an ex-con from a common, otherwise legal activity is overly

Re:Only means something to the tech-ignorant

[konekoniku]

I understand your stance, but to be fair, these bans don't extend past the end of the sentence - they are part of the sentence itself, and thus part of its duration. you interpret it otherwise, you'd have to oppose the idea of parole on those same grounds, which i don't think is your purpose. similarly, saying internet bans restrict a large number of activities not related to the crime isn't a strong argument either, because the entire concept of prison sentences restrict people from an enormous number of

Perhaps lazy judiciaries and prosecutors?

[Shadowlore]

Essentially, I see such "punishments" as a result of laziness on the part of the sentencing entity. The judges are failing to apply reasonable standards and realize that online behaviour is fundamentally not different from offline behaviour.

If a person is convicted of pedophile behaviour with a child he/she met in the shopping mall, do they the judges ban them from shopping malls? If they met them at a McDonalds, do they get banned from fast food restaraunts? Not that I am aware of.

If someone "knocks over" a convenience store or a bank, do they get banned from entering convenience stores or banks? Again, not that I know of. With possibly one or two rare exceptions I don't know of any offline crime where the convicted is banned from all locations similar to the crime scene.

So why do we suddenly think that banning pedophiles and crackers from the Internet, or phones, or other communicative technology is useful or effective? In my opinion the idea that the Internet is somehow different and that you can be banned from using it by committing a crime on it (or using it to get information to commit a crime) is dangerous to freedom of speech and information. Indeed, may even serve to perpetuate crime.

In today's society it is becoming more and more commonplace to carry out one's business, education, and entertainment online. From online banking and bill pay to online shopping, getting one's degree or a job. Even the local job service and unemployment offices are online.

As the value of the Internet in our daily lives increases such a sentence -if enforcable and enforced- is a damming one in that it begins to perpetuate a class of have-nots with regard to such cost savings and opportunities. Increasingly with government going online the government itself would then be creating a class of citizen that is effectively banned from many government services.

Ultimately it will be impossible to monitor one's access to the Internet, chatrooms, etc. w/o constant supervision. This will naturally lead to a lack of respect for such actions/penalties causing a further drop in respect for law in general. As this increases additional crimes will be committed. Not unlike when as a child if you got "sentenced" to being house restriction but mom and dad were not around to enforce it you began to realize it was toothless and didn't care about it.

Only by treating "cracking" the same as we would such an act in the offline world (breaking and entering, theft, fraud, etc.) can we expect our laws and punishments to be anything near rational and respectable. Banning pedophiles from the place they met their victims doesn't change the pedophile's behaviour.

Just like (IMO) it is wrong to be able to patent something you can do online that you can't get a patent for doing in a "brick and mortar" store, it is wrong to view crime online as different than crime offline. Theft is theft, fraud is fraud, and pedophilia is pedophilia. The Internet doesn't change that.

Re:Perhaps lazy judiciaries and prosecutors?

[bobscealy]

If a person is convicted of pedophile behaviour with a child he/she met in the shopping mall, do they the judges ban them from shopping malls? If they met them at a McDonalds, do they get banned from fast food restaraunts? Not that I am aware of.

A court is able to ban people from certain places, using the pedophile example the courts might order that the person not go within x metres of a school for example (in Australia at least, I imagine the same applies elsewhere).

I agree with your point that with

Re:Perhaps lazy judiciaries and prosecutors?

[The Cisco Kid]

What if the person has a child in school? Are they not entitled to attend parent-teacher meetings? School events in which their child is a participant? What if their kid is sick and needs a parent to pick them up?

Re:Perhaps lazy judiciaries and prosecutors?

[Qzukk]

My personal choice would be not to commit any crimes that might place me in such a situation.

I hope you don't live in Texas.

There, anyone, even you, could be a sex offender, and not even know it. [chron.com]

When the corruption of the system is so flagrant, I wonder if your personal choice holds any weight at all.

You're Screwed Anyway

[BuenasOlas]

If you are on parole/probation you are screwed anyhow. Good luck getting a job at that internet company after checking the box that says "Have you ever been convicted of a felony", even if you aren't restricted from using the internet. Most companies now even ask if you have been convicted of a misdemeanor(do not check this box if it was posession of Marijuana). If you get rolled in this country you are royally screwed for a while. So get a good lawyer, and pay him a lot of money to get your record expunged.

Re:You're Screwed Anyway

[renehollan]

I've seen job applications that ask if one has ever been arrested.

In Lake County, Illinois (and a lot of other places, I suppose), when you are ticketed by a police officer, it constitutes an arrest. You are released on your agreement to either (1) admit guilt and accept the court's sentence, (2) pay a fine which results in the criminal charge being expunged (but not you driving record being cleared, obviously), or (3) appear before the court to answer the charge.

Even if you appear before the court and

Re:You're Screwed Anyway

[merdark]

I don't even consider speeding a crime. Dangerous driving is what I consider a crime. You can be dangerous going slow, or dangerous going too fast. But speeding in of itself is not nessesarily dangerous.

The majority of speed limits are set low only so police can collect money and harass people daily. After all, harrassing folks is what many cops get off on.

Re:You're Screwed Anyway

[sapped]

How deranged must a person be if he thinks speed limits are set mainly to allow cops to harrass him?

The kind of person that realises that limiting people to 55mph on a freeway (go NY!) is obviously ridiculous to anybody with a brain. There is no sane reason that you could up with to justify that speed limit.

I'm not really sure...

[laughingcoyote]

On the one hand, people are quite often prohibited from normally-legal activity (such as leaving the state) during a probation or parole period. However, it would seem to me that, with the Internet taking over more and more everyday functions (VoIP, the wide use of email, IM, and videoconferencing in business, Web-based applications coming into wider use by corporations, in some companies, including the one I work for, you have to log into an online server just to punch in), this could effectively amount to a prohibition from holding any but the most menial jobs during your probation/parole period. I think that, looked at that way, that would certainly seem to be cruel, excessive punishment.

The arguments that "they can bust the hacker if he's caught again" seem somewhat specious to me. They can already bust him for committing the same crime again, and they can already punish a second offense more harshly than a first. They don't need some "violation of an internet ban" to do either.

In balance, while I can understand the reasoning behind this line of thought, I don't think it's an acceptable punishment. I can see why it might've been thought so in 1995, but this is not 1995 and it no longer is.

Re:I'm not really sure...

[BelugaParty]

I agree. Banning someone from the internet, or computers in general, is akin to banning someone from using the electrical grid.

Isn't restricting free speech unconstitutional?

[koko775]

Not sure if others have addressed this, but wouldn't prohibiting internet use be restricting what has become an entirely new medium for free speech? Is it legal to prohibit someone from the internet? Constitutional?

Re:Isn't restricting free speech unconstitutional?

[YrWrstNtmr]

This is just restricting one avenue. One that the individual in question has been proven to not be able to use responsibly. It is NOT removing his rights to say what he wants. There is life outside the internet.

Speech is already restricted in many ways. Yelling "Fire!" for instance.

How about

[Anonymous Coward]

1. Ban criminal from using the Internet
2. Make no serious effort to enforce this ban
3. Wait for criminal to commit another crime
4. In gathering evidence determine criminal was engaged in the use of the Internet in violation of the ruling of the courts.
5. Throw on extra charges that are easy to prove and thus gain a position of power in plea agreements or sentencing.
6. Go about throwing other criminals into prison.

banned from communicating with anybody?

[infolation]

So, once I'm banned from the internet, presumably I can't conduct any of my antiquated-but-still-effective social engineering password 'recovery' methods either?

Or write sql-injection instructions longhand using my daffy-duck pencil to be carried out on the internet by others?

Or read paper hard-copy versions of web pages?

I can still use SMS though, right?

Banned from the net

[Anonymous Coward]

Back in '94, a federal judge in Seattle banned me and my codefendant for a period of three years from using a modem or "network device".

Strange how I was allowed to work at a media company there, that contained the word "Networks" in it, without hassle.

Of course all good things must come to an end, and the Feds raided my office and had me fired the next day.

What irritates me is the irrational fear that keeping a "bad person" off the information highway is going to rehabilitate him. After all the net is a mixture of both public and private services, and tightly integrated into the common everyday activities that normal people use.

I suppose the Judge felt he was revoking my "privilege" to use the Net, but it was more of a first amendment ban if anything.

The question becomes, should people be qualified and licensed to use the Internet, since judges feel that it an earned privilege, not a God-given right?

Internet Ban

[JWSmythe]

This would have been more appropriately asked to lawyers, not a bunch of IANAL's. :)

But, from the experience I have (a few law classes, and plenty of time on both sides with lawyers), a ban such as this, while to encourage the person not to do something, is more inclined to give a harsher penalty if they should do it again.

For example, if you get a DUI, you'll very likely lose your license. You may also be prohibited from drinking. It varies by the state and circumstances. Now say you go to a bar and drink. You probably won't get caught. But if you go to a bar and are involved in a bar fight, now you'll be dragged off for VOP. Judges don't generally like it when you do something directly against what they just told you, and will probably drop you in the nearest jail for the full term of your probation, or longer, depending on his mood.

I've heard judges let things go lightly, because they know it was a subtle offense. Like, the VoIP, and IP enabled appliances that I see referenced in the comments. If you were chatting up underaged girls and the judge said to stay off the Internet, but then you were caught talking to your mom on a Vonage phone, he'd probably let it go. But if you were on a PC in a Internet Cafe, trolling for underage girls, sure as hell you'd be spending time in jail.

Consider the incident with Richard Ricci in the Elizabeth Smart case (kidnapping in Utah). Ricci was told by the judge not to drink. They raided his house because they suspected he might be involved (and then it was later proven he wasn't), but arrested him for drinking a beer. If he didn't have the beer, they would have needed real evidence to arrest him. Since he had violated that prior ruling, he was screwed, even though that's the only thing he had done wrong. If they hadn't suspected him of kidnapping and murder, they would have probably let him go with a warning.

And I'm even ...

[mthreat]

And I'm even a slashdot user [slashdot.org], since just about the time my ban ended ;)

-chris

Re:hard to verify

[Chess_the_cat]

It's not meant to be practical. It's put in place so that if you're caught again doing something illegal on the Internet they can nail you on breaking the ban and give you a heavier sentence.

Re:Edmonton man jailed for luring teen on-line (te

[theboyhope]

a 13-year-old girl who was obviously sucked in by the Internet

chat rooms are "extremely dangerous"

Now, this is a sad story, and I can only hope that this guy has a *really* bad time in prison, but how has the idea that the internet is an evil entity with malevolent intent managed to flourish? Chat rooms are as dangerous as warm fluffy socks. If he chatted her up in the local park no-one would have suggested the park was to blame. I'm off to register theinternetisnotababysitter.com

Re:Edmonton man jailed for luring teen on-line (te

[OneArmedMan]

Chat rooms are dangerous in the sence that you cant see if someone is a *dirty old man* ( tm ) , if he tried chatting some 13 yr old girl up in a park, there is a fair chance that she could have seen that he wasnt the 14 yr old boy from down the road that he was pretending to be ..

The article describes him as a "tradesman"

[mrchaotica]

so presumably he's already blue collar and it's not a huge problem.