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JPEG Patent Could Impact The Gimp

Posted by timothy on Sat Apr 24, 2004 01:03 PM
from the notacon-falls-silent dept.
SeanAhern writes "A number of years ago, Forgent acquired a patent on some of the algorithms required for JPEG compression and decompression, and recently sued 31 big-name IHVs and ISVs. A Newsforge article gets into some of the details and asks whether open source tools like the Gimp could be liable as well. To add fuel to the fire, the Joint Photographic Experts Group's committee thinks that some of the patent may be invalid. The p2pnet.net story mentions that the FTC has some skepticism as well. We originally talked about this on Slashdot back in the summer of 2002."
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  • gif all over again (Score:3, Interesting)

    by quelrods (521005) * <quel.quelrod@net> on Saturday April 24 2004, @01:05PM (#8959923)
    (http://www.quelrod.net/)
    UGH...someone write a count down for the ~2 years left before jpg's are free of patents. Getting parts or all of it invalidated due to prior art would be nice, but I won't hold my breath on that one.
    • Re:gif all over again by inode_buddha (Score:2) Saturday April 24 2004, @01:07PM
    • Re:gif all over again (Score:5, Informative)

      gif all over again
      ... except that the LZW patent was valid, as far as I know. It's not nice that they said they would not pursue the patent and then changed their mind, but that's beside the fact.

      And .gif already had a replacement that was superior in most ways -- .png. The only problems with .pngs are 1) not everything supported them at the time (but now most things do) and 2) it didn't support animated pictures like gifs do. (But I think mpng does, but nobody uses it.)

      The jpeg patent, from what I can tell, ignores the prior art that was out there when it was filed, and so that makes it invalid (but that needs to be proven in court, of course.) That, and there really isn't anything out there that's really ready to replace jpeg.

      Beyond all those import things that are different, sure, it's gif all over again :)

      [ Parent ]
  • This is a very bad trend (Score:5, Interesting)

    From the article --


    NF: Would a free software program that stores images in JPG format, like the GIMP, be violating your IP rights by using JPG?

    Noonan: That's a difficult question, I don't have the answer to that. I have to defer that to our legal team.
    Of course, just to be safe, it might be wise for the GIMP developers (as well as all other open source image processing projects which use JPG) to volunteer to donate a percentage of their revenues to Forgent Networks.


    WTF?! What revenues? The developers are getting donations and the like for the contributions they are making by working for free. This is plain ridiculous, people are putting in their free time to help develop software that will benefit everyone, and giving it away for free.

    And jackasses like this want a piece of the pie? What about the good old days when knowledge belonged to the world, and people put out their works for everyone else to use?

    Yet another reasons how patents are blatantly misused. First of all, its not even sure if they have the rights that they claim to have. At the very least, they could have spared non-commercial entities.

    Stuff like this gets me worked up to no end.

    The statement notes that at least two other companies (Philips and Lucent) are similarly claiming to have patents that relate to portions of the original JPEG standard, and expresses disappointment that some organisations are trying to cash in on what was developed to be a license and royalty-free standard.

    And what has been contributed by the OpenSource community to benefit everyone else, is being made useless by pointless litigations.

    Remember kids - We now live in an era where giving away knowledge and helping people is WRONG! You need to be greedy, patent all your stuff, sue your Mom and kill your neighbour's dog is RIGHT.
    • WTF?! What revenues? The developers are getting donations and the like for the contributions they are making by working for free. This is plain ridiculous, people are putting in their free time to help develop software that will benefit everyone, and giving it away for free.

      So yeah, the GIMP should donate a percentage of their revenues. 15% of 0 is still 0 :)
      [ Parent ]
    • Re:This is a very bad trend (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Halo1 (136547) <jonas.maebeNO@SPAMelis.ugent.be> on Saturday April 24 2004, @01:11PM (#8959970)
      (http://www.ffii.org/)
      Actually, they simply refuse to give licenses to small companies altogether, just read this message [aful.org]. As a litigation company, it costs them more to negotiate a license with a small company than what they could make from it, so they don't. It's completely independent from open source or not...
      [ Parent ]
    • By all means.... (Score:4, Funny)

      by Seraphim_72 (622457) on Saturday April 24 2004, @01:20PM (#8960021)

      Lets see here, the Gimp's profit is $0, so lets be generous and give them, oh, say a full 20%. So lets see -

      0 * .2 = 0

      Would you like that in Check, Cash or PayPal?
      [ Parent ]
    • Re:This is a very bad trend (Score:4, Insightful)

      by frdmfghtr (603968) on Saturday April 24 2004, @01:27PM (#8960063)
      NF: Would a free software program that stores images in JPG format, like the GIMP, be violating your IP rights by using JPG?

      Noonan: That's a difficult question, I don't have the answer to that. I have to defer that to our legal team.
      Of course, just to be safe, it might be wise for the GIMP developers (as well as all other open source image processing projects which use JPG) to volunteer to donate a percentage of their revenues to Forgent Networks.


      Interpretation: "Of course, if you were to give us some of your revenues, we'd be more inclined to leave you alone." Sounds like an implied threat to me for protection money.
      [ Parent ]
      • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
    • Why go after the GIMP? by BlabberMouth (Score:1) Saturday April 24 2004, @01:27PM
      • Re:Why go after the GIMP? by metlin (Score:2) Saturday April 24 2004, @01:31PM
        • Short answer: No. by BlabberMouth (Score:1) Saturday April 24 2004, @02:01PM
        • Re:Why go after the GIMP? (Score:4, Informative)

          by Artifakt (700173) on Saturday April 24 2004, @02:54PM (#8960508)
          "I know the latter is the case for copyright claims, but does IP fall in the same category?"

          Copyright DOES NOT require the holder to actively persue violators. Neither do patents or trade secrets.
          Only TRADEMARKS have any requirement for the holder to actively persue violations. Even that isn't a requirement to go to court, and often trademarks can be defended just by reminding people who use them as though they were generic that they are not.
          IP can't fall in the same category, as it is the broader category that (according to some theories of law), covers all the others just mentioned. The written law doesn't deal directly with IP, but instead deals seperately with those specific parts. That way, there is no such thing as a generic IP violation. This is a good thing, or more lawyers would be trying to stretch the law so they could sue over some sort of unlimited time, no requirements to register, my client doesn't have to prove anything cause it's secret Generic IP violation. So far, SCO is the only bunch to try for soemthing like that.
          [ Parent ]
      • Re:Why go after the GIMP? by BillyBlaze (Score:3) Saturday April 24 2004, @03:43PM
      • Re:Why go after the GIMP? by AstroDrabb (Score:2) Saturday April 24 2004, @04:11PM
    • Re:This is a very bad trend (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Dark Lord Seth (584963) on Saturday April 24 2004, @01:31PM (#8960088)
      (Last Journal: Monday November 08 2004, @10:00AM)
      And jackasses like this want a piece of the pie? What about the good old days when knowledge belonged to the world, and people put out their works for everyone else to use?

      Welcome to 2004.

      Knowledge today is nothing more then a simple object of value. Patents, IP, and the whole are used as sleeper agents lately. You patent something extremely broad today and in 10 years, you fuck up everyone by sueing people left and right. That's normal these days and basically not much to worry about. After all, the big companies in IT at the moment got in their current position by other means. Google by sheer usefulness, IBM by overpowering all mainframe competition over time, Microsoft by succesfully ripping of good ideas, etc. If you look at the Fortune 500 list, who in that list made and kept his fortune by starting silly lawsuits? ( lawyers dont start lawsuits, they just porfit from them. Immensely. )

      [ Parent ]
    • Re:This is a very bad trend (Score:5, Insightful)

      by JordanH (75307) on Saturday April 24 2004, @01:41PM (#8960151)
      (http://jordanhenderson.blogspot.com/ | Last Journal: Sunday April 02 2006, @08:53PM)
      IANAL, but I think any GIMP developer who did 'volunteer to donate a percentage of' anything might lose their right to distribute the GIMP under the GPL.

      From the GPL [fsf.org]:

      7. If, as a consequence of a court judgment or allegation of patent infringement or for any other reason (not limited to patent issues), conditions are imposed on you (whether by court order, agreement or otherwise) that contradict the conditions of this License, they do not excuse you from the conditions of this License. If you cannot distribute so as to satisfy simultaneously your obligations under this License and any other pertinent obligations, then as a consequence you may not distribute the Program at all. For example, if a patent license would not permit royalty-free redistribution of the Program by all those who receive copies directly or indirectly through you, then the only way you could satisfy both it and this License would be to refrain entirely from distribution of the Program.

      Note the phrase "conditions are imposed on you (whether by court order, agreement or otherwise)..."

      By agreeing to "donate" to a patent holder, you might be endangering your rights to distribute under the GPL.

      [ Parent ]
    • Re:This is a very bad trend (Score:5, Informative)

      by spiritraveller (641174) on Saturday April 24 2004, @01:46PM (#8960176)
      (http://spiritraveller.blogspot.com/)
      Actually, the Newsforge page looks more like this:

      NF: Would a free software program that stores images in JPG format, like the GIMP, be violating your IP rights by using JPG?

      Noonan: That's a difficult question, I don't have the answer to that. I have to defer that to our legal team.

      Of course, just to be safe, it might be wise for the GIMP developers (as well as all other open source image processing projects which use JPG) to volunteer to donate a percentage of their revenues to Forgent Networks.

      This was placed at the end of the interview.

      My impression is that these were not Noonan's words, but the closing statement of the interviewer... a writer for an open source oriented web site, who obviously has a sense of humor about the issue...

      [ Parent ]
    • Re:This is a very bad trend (Score:5, Informative)

      by mcrbids (148650) on Saturday April 24 2004, @01:58PM (#8960228)
      (http://www.lookuplaws.com/ | Last Journal: Sunday November 18, @06:33PM)
      What about the good old days when knowledge belonged to the world, and people put out their works for everyone else to use?


      You know the good ole days weren't always good
      And tomorrow ain't as bad as it seems
      -Billy Joel


      Those "good old days" were the days when your parents worked their asses off to provide stuff for you to use.

      Patent disputes have been going on as long as there have been patents - Hollywood was founded in California because IP law wasn't strictly enforced in California, (like it was in New York) and so the MPAA could get around patents on the film camera. [wired.com]
      [ Parent ]
      • Re:This is a very bad trend (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Bastian (66383) on Saturday April 24 2004, @04:21PM (#8961079)
        I think this Hollywood story is a great example of how wrongheaded a lot of IP law is. Historically places with heavy restrictions on the freedom of information (like, say, the Soviet Union) have fallen behind other areas in economic productivity and quality of life. Whatever new technology someone is trying to control in a restrictive place just pops up somewhere else where those restrictions aren't as strong, as in the Hollywood case.

        I believe the issue here is that in the long run monopoly is always bad for an economy. I realize that patents, copyrights, etc. are necessary to give inventors and innovators some incentive to put new products on the market, especially in the case of small inventors who would simply be gobbled up as soon as their bigger larger competitors reverse engineered their product (or co-opted their ideas in the case of copyright law.)

        However, the point is to give just enough time that you promote innovation but not too much time so you don't stifle competition (in the case of patents) or cultural history (in the case of copyright). It's important to realize that the length of time that is appropriate here varies wildly from industry to industry. In the case of software patents (we'll assume for the moment that they aren't a stupid idea in the first place), for example, the industry moves so quickly that a patent shouldn't last any longer than two years. That's plenty of time for a piece of software to grab a niche in the market. It's also a good way to avoid stealth patents like this JPEG one. 20 years for something like an image compression algorithm is just ridiculous.

        In the old days, folks could easily have gotten around this by just moving to a country where you can't patent something like a compression algorithm and continue to make improvements in signal compression technology. At the same time, the country that did allow that patent would suddenly find itself falling behind in the technology world because it enforces laws that stifle innovation.

        Nowadays, the big countries are trying to escape this problem not by creating legal environments that encourage having an intelligent, innovative population but by trying to force their Faustian bargain on the whole world through international trade laws (which is how the USA got the DMCA). Which is sad - instead of saying, "hey, everyone else out there is growing really fast, maybe we should grow really fast, too", the western world has decreed that the entire species must grow slowly.

        And the thing that gets me most of all is that the whole IP thing is so similar to a classic prisoner's dilemma that I can't believe it isn't more painfully obvious to people. Then again, maybe it is, and it's just that the people who get to make decisions about IP law aren't interested in being better off in an objective sense; they're just interested in making sure they will always do better than everyone below them.
        [ Parent ]
      • Re:This is a very bad trend by Saeger (Score:2) Saturday April 24 2004, @04:34PM
    • Re:This is a very bad trend by AstroDrabb (Score:3) Saturday April 24 2004, @04:06PM
    • Re:This is a very bad trend by NineNine (Score:2) Saturday April 24 2004, @07:32PM
    • Re:This is a very bad trend by heybo (Score:1) Saturday April 24 2004, @10:56PM
    • Re:This is a very bad trend by dfghjk (Score:1) Saturday April 24 2004, @04:55PM
    • 3 replies beneath your current threshold.
  • The real question is... (Score:2, Funny)

    by FrYGuY101 (770432) on Saturday April 24 2004, @01:05PM (#8959926)
    (Last Journal: Wednesday October 20 2004, @05:23AM)
    Will there be a www.BurnAllJPGs.com?
  • Abolish patents. (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Thinkit4 (745166) * on Saturday April 24 2004, @01:06PM (#8959932)
    Then the gimp wouldn't have a problem.
  • In other news... (Score:5, Funny)

    by KingOfBLASH (620432) on Saturday April 24 2004, @01:06PM (#8959934)
    (Last Journal: Sunday October 10 2004, @02:36PM)
    Forgent receives financing deal from Baystar in order to pursue IP claims.
  • Still applicable? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by The Original Yama (454111) on Saturday April 24 2004, @01:06PM (#8959935)
    (http://www.dhanapalan.com/)
    The patent was applied for ages ago, and I think it expires later this year. Why would any court accept the claims of this company when they never defended their patent in the past?
    • Re:Still applicable? (Score:5, Informative)

      by Doctor7 (669966) on Saturday April 24 2004, @01:10PM (#8959960)
      Because it wasn't their patent in the past. They bought the company that owned it; the original company wanted to leave the standard alone and not enforce the patent. The current owners don't have the same opinion and there's nothing in the transfer of patents that forces them to respect the original owners' wishes.
      [ Parent ]
      • Re:Still applicable? (Score:5, Interesting)

        by moviepig.com (745183) on Saturday April 24 2004, @01:37PM (#8960135)
        (http://www.moviepig.com/)
        ...the original company wanted to leave the standard alone and not enforce the patent. The current owners don't...

        If the original owners let the patent "leak" into the public domain (effectively, per the Doctrine of Laches), then such would be the condition of the patent as purchased by the new company. The patent's virginity wouldn't reinstate any more than Britney's.

        (But IANAL, dammit.)

        [ Parent ]
      • Bridge Trolls? by SoSueMe (Score:1) Saturday April 24 2004, @03:11PM
    • Re:Still applicable? by servoled (Score:2) Saturday April 24 2004, @01:10PM
    • Laches? (Score:4, Informative)

      by taped2thedesk (614051) * on Saturday April 24 2004, @01:24PM (#8960049)
      Why would any court accept the claims of this company when they never defended their patent in the past?

      Well, generally past enforcement patterns (i.e. non-enforcement and selective enforcement) has nothing to do with the patent rights. AFAIK, if you've paid the patent fees, it's still your patent and you can still sue over infringment. This is unlike trademarks, where all sorts of things can affect the validity of your trademark (for example, if a trademark holder users their mark as a verb rather than a proper noun, it might not stand up in court).

      However, there is the legal concept of laches [reference.com], which MIGHT provide protection against past damages. If it applied to patents, then if a company was aware of a particular infringment, showed negligance by failing to enforce their patent (i.e. sue the infringer), then comes back much later and decides to sue, the infringer couldn't be held responsible for past damages (although they could still be ordered to stop infringing, etc.). This is all in theory though, I'm not sure if this has been tested in court with regard to patents. And IANAL.

      If anyone knows more about this, feel free to enlighten me.

      [ Parent ]
      • Re:Laches? by sabaco (Score:2) Saturday April 24 2004, @11:46PM
  • Personally... (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 24 2004, @01:08PM (#8959947)
    ..Does it entirely matter if we lose JPEG? If we have so many filters to remove the crappy artifacts left behind from JPEG, and such great formats that are worth fighting for, like PNG, if they were to come under patent, it makes you wonder...
    • Yes, it matters. (Score:5, Insightful)

      by zCyl (14362) on Saturday April 24 2004, @01:20PM (#8960014)
      Does it entirely matter if we lose JPEG?

      Yes. Most digital cameras save their pictures as JPEGs. I happen to enjoy being able to use/adjust those pictures under Linux.
      [ Parent ]
    • Re:Personally... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by S.Lemmon (147743) on Saturday April 24 2004, @01:27PM (#8960066)
      (http://slashdot.org/)
      To all the other dittoheads saying "just use PNG", please learn something or two about the format before you push it.

      Sure it's open source, and that's great, but it was never intended as JPEG replacement! JPEG is a lossy compression and can reduce the size of a photographic image much further than a lossless compression - that's why it was invented to begin with. PNG is intended as a GIF replacement for images like drawings and diagrams that have large areas of the exact same color.

      You might as well say to use TIFF as use PNG - both will store high color images with perfect quality, but they'll be huge compared to JPEG. Bandwidth ain't free folks - having images ten times their previous size can sink a busy website. Now, finally some may say "but PNG supports lossy compression too" - yep, it's sure does - by using JPEG compression!
      [ Parent ]
    • Re:Personally... by nkh (Score:1) Saturday April 24 2004, @01:47PM
    • Re:Personally... by Mycroft_VIII (Score:1) Saturday April 24 2004, @03:54PM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • Oh come on.. stop worrying already. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by k98sven (324383) on Saturday April 24 2004, @01:10PM (#8959961)
    (Last Journal: Monday December 06 2004, @10:11AM)
    Number one: Noone seems to think this patent is applicable, we've been over this already. The JPEG group says [jpeg.org] (in diplomatic terms) that they have prior art.

    Number two: What is to be gained by going after the Gimp? Want to becoming the next SCO? Only there is even less money in the Gimp than in Linux.

  • JPEG 2000 (Score:1)

    by The Original Yama (454111) on Saturday April 24 2004, @01:11PM (#8959965)
    (http://www.dhanapalan.com/)
    The sooner we get JPEG 2000 [jpeg.org], the better. What's taking them so long, anyway? They're already four years late (going by the name).
    • Re:JPEG 2000 by petabyte (Score:3) Saturday April 24 2004, @01:24PM
      • Re:JPEG 2000 by canajin56 (Score:2) Saturday April 24 2004, @01:34PM
        • Re:JPEG 2000 by Doctor7 (Score:2) Saturday April 24 2004, @02:23PM
          • Re:JPEG 2000 by sabaco (Score:3) Saturday April 24 2004, @11:57PM
        • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
      • Re:JPEG 2000 by mukund (Score:3) Saturday April 24 2004, @01:46PM
        • Re:JPEG 2000 by AstroDrabb (Score:2) Saturday April 24 2004, @07:26PM
    • Re:JPEG 2000 by osewa77 (Score:2) Saturday April 24 2004, @01:25PM
    • Re:JPEG 2000 by S.Lemmon (Score:1) Saturday April 24 2004, @01:37PM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • One might say... (Score:2)

    by kenthorvath (225950) on Saturday April 24 2004, @01:11PM (#8959966)
    One might even say that Forgent is going to make the GIMP their gimp. Wakka wakka wakka! - (ducks)
  • Don't worry (be happy) (Score:3, Informative)

    by mark-t (151149) <markt.lynx@bc@ca> on Saturday April 24 2004, @01:16PM (#8959999)
    (Last Journal: Tuesday September 12 2006, @03:31PM)
    I'd say that people should do absolutely nothing.... by the time they even get their lawyers out to go after anyone it will be too late. This patent is mere weeks away from expiration already.
  • Shaky legal ground forming? (Score:1, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 24 2004, @01:18PM (#8960009)
    I think these patent holders are seeing a dim future for the value of software patents and are trying to cash in before it's too late. Maybe it will end up causing a vicious circle that will hopefully result in reform.
  • Suck (Score:4, Interesting)

    by DarkHelmet (120004) * <mark@seventhcycle. n e t> on Saturday April 24 2004, @01:20PM (#8960017)
    (http://seventhcycle.net/)
    I'm not so worried about The Gimp, since I typically use Photoshop.

    What I AM worried about, is what sort of long-reaching implications this has for GD [boutell.com]. I use GD regularly in order to manipulate images via the web, and something like this would most likely cause JPEG support to be entirely removed from the project until the worldwide patent expires.

    They did it with GIF.

    This sucks, because usually I've come to expect future versions of software to have MORE functionality, not less. I hope the Joint Photographic Experts Group really does have prior art.

    • Re:Suck by SnakeStu (Score:3) Saturday April 24 2004, @01:35PM
      • Re:Suck by DarkHelmet (Score:2) Saturday April 24 2004, @02:07PM
        • Re:Suck by Mycroft_VIII (Score:1) Saturday April 24 2004, @04:08PM
        • 2 replies beneath your current threshold.
      • Re:Suck by Bozdune (Score:2) Saturday April 24 2004, @08:39PM
        • Re:Suck by SnakeStu (Score:2) Sunday April 25 2004, @01:39PM
          • Re:Suck by Bozdune (Score:2) Monday April 26 2004, @09:37PM
            • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • USPTO as a tiny ice cream truck (Score:3, Insightful)

    by The I Shing (700142) * on Saturday April 24 2004, @01:24PM (#8960043)
    (Last Journal: Friday May 06 2005, @02:21PM)
    For me, what comes to mind is an image of the USPTO as a small roadside ice cream stand that hands out weapons-grade plutonium.

    At least this company is attacking big companies that can defend themselves. I'm surprised they're not going the PanIP route and going after small companies, settling for miniscule amounts from a large number of defendants. Or would that stragegy backfire?
  • by Amiga Lover (708890) on Saturday April 24 2004, @01:24PM (#8960045)
    Seriously. Half these patent/IP battles with stuff from the 80s/early 90s is crap - companies have some IP they claim is theres, but looking back it's been so diluted over time, pieces sold off, transferred about, and nobody really keeps records of what belongs to who. SCO think they own "unix" but they at the most (barring the novell dispute) own PART of SOME of ONE branch of ONE of the unices. Some of the SysV code is so open and diluted and already released freely that it simply cannot apply, likewise by the look of these jpg patents it's only a MAYBE that forgent own SOME of the jpeg compression stuff.

    Is there not a central registry on who owns what, instead of just an initial record of a patent being granted to company X, and finding out who owns it requires looking through the transitions of different companies as pieces of the IP are sold off over time.

    If everything was kept up to date AS THE SALES HAPPENED it would all be so much easier, no disputes, a nice paper trail of just who owns what.

    I bet some of these patent companies buy up IP in the hope they have something worthwhile, but will never know what they're truly entitled to without it being decided by a court... and since information can be absent there, that can get it wrong
    • by secondsun (195377) <gtg261s@mail.gatech.edu> on Saturday April 24 2004, @03:09PM (#8960636)
      (Last Journal: Tuesday August 02 2005, @06:55PM)
      The effects you are describing happens in land sales frequently. A man with x acres will give his children each an equal share in the x acres instead of splitting the land up. Then these children will borrow money against their share, sell it off, or give it to their children. After 20 - 30 years the shares are all split up and dilluted until someone comes along and forcloses on one share with an outstanding debt and is able to take all of the property. (There is an 8 year perdiod where the forclosure can be challenged but it is hard to succesfully execute after the forclosure is complete and impossible after 20 years). The term for this 8-20 year period is a colored title. (0-8 years I think is a contested title and 20 on is a clear title).
      [ Parent ]
  • Not just the GIMP (Score:5, Insightful)

    by nurb432 (527695) on Saturday April 24 2004, @01:24PM (#8960047)
    (http://slashdot.org/~nurb432/ | Last Journal: Friday August 27 2004, @03:24PM)
    Most anything would be effected I would imagine.

    But in the end, it will be a lot like the GIF mess a few years back.

    Instead of making a quick buck they pretty much made GIF irrelevant.

    They thought that since it was so ingrained into the graphics world people would just penny up ... proved them wrong..

    Making money on ones inventions is ok, dont get me wrong.. But doing it THIS way just isnt 'right'.
  • Just to be safe... (Score:2, Funny)

    by lazy_arabica (750133) on Saturday April 24 2004, @01:32PM (#8960091)
    (http://www.fifth-essence.net/)
    Of course, just to be safe, it might be wise for the GIMP developers (as well as all other open source image processing projects which use JPG) to volunteer to donate a percentage of their revenues to Forgent Networks.

    Just to be safe... because of course, we wouldn't like something bad to happen to you...
  • by justsomebody (525308) on Saturday April 24 2004, @01:33PM (#8960099)
    (Last Journal: Thursday January 15 2004, @06:55PM)
    what about JPEG2000 (if I look at the name they are probably a bit late)

    Anyone knows about JEPG2000???
    • Re:Ok, JPEG is proprietary, but (Score:4, Informative)

      by canajin56 (660655) on Saturday April 24 2004, @01:47PM (#8960183)

      JPEG2000 also has patents that cover it. However, the JPEG group claims that they have obtained waivers from all such patent holders, so everything should be OK. The CORE contains 27 patents from 11 companies that have been licenced free of charge to the JPEG group under ISO guidlines, and, as such, can be used freely by anybody implementing the JPEG 2000 part-1 standard.

      However, Part-2 of the standard, which contains several enhancments to the core, does contain a single patent that is not free, but avalible under RAND (Reasonable and non-discriminatory) terms. However, Part-2 is not necessary for JPEG2000 functionality...I'm not sure what exactly Part-2 contains, in fact...

      On the other hand, these exact same guidelines were applied to the JPEG standard. Of course, the JPEG group itself says that the JPEG patent that the article is about isinvalid, as the JPEG standard predates the patent in question.

      [ Parent ]
  • Really his quote? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by chris_eineke (634570) on Saturday April 24 2004, @01:36PM (#8960120)
    (http://www.chriseineke.com/ | Last Journal: Friday January 06 2006, @04:23PM)
    Quote:
    Of course, just to be safe, it might be wise for the GIMP developers (as well as all other open source image processing projects which use JPG) to volunteer to donate a percentage of their revenues to Forgent Networks.

    Is this actually part of that guy's answer? It looks more like a sarcastic remark of the poller.

    Well, at least I hope it is.... :-/
  • by ccady (569355) on Saturday April 24 2004, @01:39PM (#8960144)
    (Last Journal: Sunday March 28 2004, @08:38AM)

    Because of this news, I finally got off my @ss and installed the GIMP. I had been using Paint Shop Pro, which is good and all for what I want it for, but it ain't libre. Mozilla, Gaim, and GIMP. Now if I can just kick the Windows habit.

  • Zed: Bring out the Gimp.
    Maynard: But the Gimp's sleeping.
    Zed: Well, I guess you better go and wake him up then.
  • Oh, great. (Score:5, Funny)

    by RomulusNR (29439) on Saturday April 24 2004, @01:42PM (#8960158)
    (http://kradeleet.com/)
    So after converting all our GIFs to JPGs in the middle of the 90s, now that the other patent [unisys.com] has expired, we'll be converting all our JPGs back to GIFs.
    • Re:Oh, great. by shish (Score:2) Saturday April 24 2004, @01:59PM
  • by hak1du (761835) on Saturday April 24 2004, @01:48PM (#8960188)
    (Last Journal: Monday April 12 2004, @04:18AM)
    The patent is on run-length coding, a widely used idea even in the 1980's, together with lots of trivial variations on the basic idea. The patent shouldn't have been granted--it's just one of many bogus patents.

    However, even more serious is that the company has waited until the last year that the patent is in effect trying to enforce it. Under current regulations, that seems to be possible, but there is no reason why we should not change the laws and regulations.

    We really need to arrive at a legal principle that companies need to actively enforce their patents when they become aware of violations, or otherwise lose patent protection altogether. For something of the size and importance of the JPEG standard, the company should have known within a few years of its adoption that it may infringe their patent.
    • by Doctor7 (669966) on Saturday April 24 2004, @03:06PM (#8960613)
      the company should have known within a few years of its adoption that it may infringe their patent.

      The original company did, and waived any claim over JPEG (not to the patent, just that they would not claim for its use in JPEG). But there's no legal mechanism for writing such conditions into the patent, so when Forgent bought the company and obtained the patent, they were not bound by the wishes of the original company. It's almost the same as with copyright - the copyright holder can put any conditions he likes on the work, including 'I retain the copyright but do what you like with it', but unless he actually states that he is releasing it to the public domain, someone who later obtains the copyright can change those conditions.

      [ Parent ]
    • Re:ridiculous patent, but that isn't even the prob by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Saturday April 24 2004, @04:17PM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • by Jayfar (630313) on Saturday April 24 2004, @02:06PM (#8960267)
    Look, LOOK, in the middle of their list. Are they really sure they want to do that?

    Lined up as defendants are: Adobe Systems, Agfa Corporation, Apple Computer , Axis Communications Incorporated, Canon USA, Concord Camera Corporation , Creative Labs Incorporated, Dell Incorporated, Eastman Kodak Company, Fuji Photo Film Co USA, Fujitsu Computer Products of America, Gateway Inc, Hewlett-Packard Company, International Business Machines Corp, JASC Software, JVC Americas Corporation, Kyocera Wireless Corporation, Macromedia Inc, Matsushita Electric Corporation of America, Oce' North America Incorporated, Onkyo Corporation, PalmOne Inc, Panasonic Communications Corporation of America, Panasonic Mobile Communications Development Corporation of USA, Ricoh Corporation, Riverdeep Incorporated (d.b.a. Broderbund), Savin Corporation, Thomson SA, Toshiba Corporation and Xerox Corporation.

  • Drop the plugin (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 24 2004, @02:53PM (#8960503)
    Let say they go after GIMP. Can't the GIMP
    developers just drop jpeg support then? I mean
    the are other image formats out there. This
    might just be the catalyst to make .png or .svg
    even more popular.
  • Gimp shmimp (Score:5, Insightful)

    by sacrilicious (316896) on Saturday April 24 2004, @02:59PM (#8960550)
    (http://slashdot.org/)
    I don't get why this article, and much discussion following it, are focusing on the effect of the alleged patent on the Gimp. Jpeg is simply one of many file formats the Gimp reads and writes; the heart and sould of the Gimp is not any given file format, it's the painting tools. Was the Gimp mentioned simply because it's the only way someone can think of to frame the issue in terms of some kind of open source??
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • What's the patent for anyway? DCT? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Prof.Phreak (584152) on Saturday April 24 2004, @02:59PM (#8960551)
    (http://www.theparticle.com/)
    What's the patent for anyway? I can think of only a handful of things that are `key' to JPEG:

    DCT, quantization, and Huffman.

    quantization is just lossy scailing (how they can patent scailing?). Huffman is patent free. That leaves DCT, but isn't that just _very basic_ transform?

    And if they parent jpeg, doesn't it also mean they have the rights to low/high pass image filters?

    Am I missing something? (sorry, don't really wanna read through the patent to figure out... would just like to get a quick clue on what's this all about...)
  • by Pan T. Hose (707794) on Saturday April 24 2004, @03:00PM (#8960552)
    (http://plato.stanford.edu/ | Last Journal: Tuesday March 15 2005, @10:46AM)
    The GIF/Unisys fiasco should have tought us something.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 24 2004, @03:07PM (#8960620)
    I've got a really hairy ass, and I'm going to patent my design for a tool which will shave my forest effeciently, and fast.

    So far, my working prototype is a lawnmower blade attached to the crankshaft of a 600 ft. lb. Detroit Deisel engine. The real trick, so far, is not making the design smaller and portable, but making it safer to use on the other side for the bikini line. A practical analogy, to this design problem, would be the discomfort associated while mowing the lawn and running over a twig.
  • Merge them all (Score:4, Funny)

    by Tablizer (95088) on Saturday April 24 2004, @03:35PM (#8960790)
    (http://www.geocities.com/tablizer | Last Journal: Saturday March 15 2003, @01:22PM)
    SCO, Forgent, Amazon etc. should merge into one big dubious IP lawsuit conglomerate. They could call themselves Sueonics, One Click Lawsuits, Patent Breathing, etc.
  • This is what we get . . . (Score:2, Informative)

    by user no. 590291 (590291) on Saturday April 24 2004, @05:46PM (#8961607)
    . . . for having allowed corporations to own math through the patent system. The nice thing about open source is that there will be offshore patches to defy these immoral patents.
  • Then again.......... (Score:2, Funny)

    by darth_silliarse (681945) on Saturday April 24 2004, @07:46PM (#8962211)
    (http://www.this-way-out.net/)
    Oh shit if this patent comes into force I won't be able to reinstall Corel Draw 6!

    The nuisance of it all!

    Oh wait....
  • by rixstep (611236) on Saturday April 24 2004, @08:48PM (#8962480)
    (http://rixstep.com/)
    I wish I had time to discuss this, but I have my own patent lawsuits to pursue.

    I am namely the inventor of the 'serif', or actually not me, but my good friend Christopher Lambert, who bequeathed the patent to me because he always felt I'd inspired him to patent the idea in the first place.

    We were walking out back of my place in Queensland, Australia, and a sheep passed us by. The sheep had just - you know - and there was still a dingleberry hanging from its - you know - and I pointed it out to Christopher.

    'Hey Chris! Look what's there!" I said, pointing to the sheep's dingleberry.

    'If there's a name for it I sure don't know!' Christopher replied.

    But of course there's a name for it. In both Australian and American. Whatever: Christopher swears he got the idea for the serif from that conversational exchange. And he patented it.

    So now anyone not using a Swiss font has to pay ME. Or so I figure. But this will be in the court system for a LONG time - and I'll be in court rooms for about as long, so I don't have time to discuss this JPEG thing.

    But I ran into Darl in the corridors and he says to say hello.
  • by Thomas Shaddack (709926) on Saturday April 24 2004, @10:10PM (#8962810)
    Make an import/export filter set that will heavily depend on NetPBM. Then they can "outsource" all the JPEG-related functions to the NetPBM package, and be clear like a lily themselves. The infringement itself is then committed by the end-users themselves, who set the import filters to use the convertors in question - which is too many people with too low value and practically zero chance to be caught. Of course this shifts the heat to NetPBM, but due to the extreme modularity of the package and wide availability of the modules, getting it out of distribution is fairly impossible, even if all the US-based developers would give their hands away from the jpegtopnm program.
  • JNG (Score:1)

    by TeXMaster (593524) on Sunday April 25 2004, @05:42AM (#8964053)
    There is a PNG brother format called JNG, with JPEG-like compression. Is it affected by the patent? If not, it's time JNG took the guidance role over JPEG like PNG did with GIF. Also the animated MNG format, IIRC, is a superset of JNG. Again, does this patent affect it?
  • by Vernes (720223) on Sunday April 25 2004, @03:48PM (#8967196)
    'cause by then, every company managed to patent everthing not patented yet. and we're all using uncompressed, raw images. or paying through the nose.
  • Re:PNG to the rescue!!!! (Score:1, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 24 2004, @01:14PM (#8959984)
    I would love to stop using JPEG and use PNG instead but my digital camera produces JPG only and I use Gimp to process them.
    [ Parent ]
  • Re:PNG (Score:1)

    by jonjohnson (568941) on Saturday April 24 2004, @01:16PM (#8959994)
    (http://nilobject.com/)
    Doesn't matter how inexpensive it is if people are content [slashdot.org].
    [ Parent ]
  • Disk space, ram, etc. (Score:3, Insightful)

    by www.sorehands.com (142825) on Saturday April 24 2004, @01:16PM (#8959998)
    (http://www.barbieslapp.com/)
    Why waste the bandwith, diskspace, ram, if we can use a lossy format? What about bandwidth when I am on dialup or wireless? What about diskspace on my laptop to hold these images?

    No matter how much bandwidth you have, it is still limited.

    [ Parent ]
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • Re:PNG (Score:2, Funny)

    by Tablizer (95088) on Saturday April 24 2004, @01:18PM (#8960007)
    (http://www.geocities.com/tablizer | Last Journal: Saturday March 15 2003, @01:22PM)
    Just another reason to use PNG. As the availability of inexpensive bandwidth increases, so declines the need for lossy compression methods.

    You are telling slashdotters that they should live with 200,000 porn images instead of 1,000,000? That'll go over like Steve Balmer at a Linux convention.
    [ Parent ]
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 24 2004, @01:29PM (#8960075)
    The name of the game is sit back and wait for whatever becomes popular. Then stake a claim.
    [ Parent ]
  • Re:At least we still have PNG (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Rikus (765448) on Saturday April 24 2004, @01:30PM (#8960079)
    > Who needs lossless images anyway!

    You mean "Who needs _lossy_ images"?

    > Sure, they're huge, but you've got broadband, right?

    Photographs ought to be stored using lossless compression anyway. Who wants to worry about slowly degrading the quality of their images with repeated editing and re-saving?

    If PNGs are too huge, why not reduce the color bit depth or scale it down? (for internet transfer)
    [ Parent ]
    • Re:At least we still have PNG by NanoGator (Score:2) Saturday April 24 2004, @03:08PM
      • Re:At least we still have PNG by Rikus (Score:2) Saturday April 24 2004, @03:29PM
        • Re:At least we still have PNG (Score:5, Insightful)

          by NanoGator (522640) on Saturday April 24 2004, @03:41PM (#8960828)
          (http://www.ferion.net/ | Last Journal: Monday May 06 2002, @02:16AM)
          "The "undetectable degredation" is sometimes detectable, or might become detectable if repeatedly applied."

          A decent JPEG encoder just adds a slight amount of noise (rarely more than 2 values in either direction..) to the image, and cameras aren't exactly crystal clear to begin with. Re-encoding can cause these effects to multiply. The simple answer is to save the JPEG as a lossless image (like .PNG) if you're going to modify/remodify it. Then save it as JPEG again when you're ready for the final output. Okay, that's two JPEG saves instead of just one, but again it's not noticable degradation. If the image needs to be resaved after that, call up the lossless version earlier and work from that. That's how a lot of us artists work, anyway. We don't haveta deal with crummy digital camera images.

          "Images on (some) web pages probably don't need to be very high quality (applies to both, I guess)."

          Given that we're still getting wireless (i.e. celllular, not wifi) off the ground and that PDAs only have so much storage, hopping over to .PNG is not going to do anything but hurt that situation.

          "Lossy compression feels dirty (like mp3 vs. flac)."

          Comparing JPG to MP3 is not really fair. Granted, some sites do compress their jpegs down so far that the artifacts are quite noticable. However,for stuff like showing digital photos on the web, you just can't see the artifacts unless somebody was just a bad pilot with the software they were using. I know this because I've run a difference filter on various images compressed with JPEG. The difference is so subtle. It's not like MP3 which is compressed enough that you can hear the degradation in it. It'd be more like comparing Mp3 at 500kbits to Flac. At that point, man it'd be hard (not impossible, I suppose) to see the difference.

          JPEG is quite useful, even with today's broadband availability.
          [ Parent ]
  • Re:PNG (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Z-MaxX (712880) on Saturday April 24 2004, @01:43PM (#8960161)
    (Last Journal: Sunday April 25 2004, @11:49AM)
    I am absolutely sick of hearing "just use PNG for everything" as a response to the JPEG patent problems. PNG is a great format, for many things. But JPEG is a great format for many other things.

    It will at least be many years before everyone has broadband internet, and even then, serving content over the internet costs money and this is, in the end, based entirely on the quantity of data transferred. A huge web site, serving millions of images a day, may see its bandwidth bill soar by a factor of 10 if they switched exclusively to lossless compression for images. For instance, Google Image search, which has to serve the thumbnail images for search results. These are low-quality, small images to allow the user to quickly pick an image that seems interesting. JPEG, or another lossy compression format, is perfect for this.

    I really would like to see an open-source lossy image compression format, like an Ogg for images, though. I wish I were knowledgable enough to work on this myself.

    [ Parent ]
    • Re:PNG by Anonymous Coward (Score:2) Saturday April 24 2004, @02:10PM
  • by Bohemoth2 (179802) on Saturday April 24 2004, @01:43PM (#8960162)
    I got your'e Losslesss right here! (points to crotch). ;)
    [ Parent ]
  • by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 24 2004, @02:41PM (#8960455)
    Learn the fucking difference between "effect" and "affect" and use the proper word rather than injecting a straight up wrong word in an attempt to disguise your incompetence, laziness, or whatever it is that makes people abuse a perfectly good noun that way.

    thank you.


    Grade D+

    I have made the following corrections to your poorly written grammar below. Changes are noted in bold face text.

    BEGIN EDIT
    Learn the fucking difference between "effect" and "affect", and use the proper word rather than injecting a "straight up" wrong word, in an attempt to disguise your incompetence, laziness, or whatever it is that makes people abuse a perfectly good noun that way.

    Thank you.
    END EDIT

    Thank you. Bitch...
    [ Parent ]
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • Re:PNG (Score:1)

    by Mycroft_VIII (572950) on Saturday April 24 2004, @03:59PM (#8960915)
    (Last Journal: Wednesday September 14 2005, @03:46AM)
    Except PNG and Jpeg are not designed for the same kind of images. It goes beyond lossy/non-lossy issues.
    Jpeg - lossy, use on photos (has lossless mode in the standard even though not always implemented)
    Png - lossles, designed for art/cartoon/human created images.
    I have a couple of posts earlier about this so I won't go into it further to save people from hearing the full rant all 3 times :)

    Mycroft
    [ Parent ]
  • I agree that the patent system is broken. It is difficult to do any work in compression or image processing and not run into a patent. Apparently this has hampered the JPEG 2000 work. It seems to have taken them a long time to settle on the wavelet function for the standard. I've been told that this was due to patent concerns.

    Lest you think this is idle thought, let me tell you that I worked on things in the late 70's and early '80's that will invalidate whatever patents that many other people have already patented to exclude others from making money on them. Watch closely, you'll recognize them when you see them.

    I have to say that your post comes across as pretty egotistical. You did all this seminal work and its going to invalidate lots of patents? First off, you're posting as an Anonymous Coward. We'll never know. And did you actually publish this work so that it can be shown that "all those patents" run into prior art? If you did not publish, then you're simple a legend in your own mind.

    [ Parent ]
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