Diebold To Drop Suit Against Whistleblowers 190
segment writes "Fox News reports that
'Diebold said it would not
sue dozens of students,
computer scientists and Internet service providers who had received cease-and-desist
letters from the company from August to October,' which is great for academia land, but
one should still ponder using Diebold on any level: 'an executive scolded programmers
for leaving software files on an Internet site without password protection.' Kind of a
scary thought with all the United States went through during the Bush/Gore election,
imagine the theories should a Diebold product be used in a situation like that. "
Reader doormat points out, however, that "the EFF is still going after Diebold over
the C&D letters." Several readers also submitted links to Paul Krugman's
New York Times column about Diebold's approach to public trust and accountability.
EFF *still* suing? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:EFF *still* suing? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:EFF *still* suing? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:EFF *still* suing? (Score:4, Insightful)
Since those claims are sent on penalty of perjury it would be nice to see someone lose a metaphorical hand for frivolous use of them.
Re:EFF *still* suing? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:EFF *still* suing? (Score:4, Interesting)
Upon notification, we must verify that:
1.) we received written notification
2.) the party claims, under penalty of perjury, that they are or represent the accusing party
3.) They specify contact info
4.) They detail what and where something is infringing
5.) They must make a claim, under penalty of perjury, that the claims of infringement, to the best of their knowledge, are accurate.
Then, we are not liable for damages, so long as:
1.) we didn't notice or had no reason to believe that the material being served was copyrighted
2.) Move quickly to remove it
3.) Do not stand to benifit from the infringement
Additionally, we are only indemnified assuming we:
1.) Have an agent contact at the copyright office
2.) Make the contact info for said agent available on our public website
So, there is a legal process for this, but, in order for us to not invite legal action, we have legal obligations, just as the accusers do. If the accusers make no statement, under penalty of perjury, that they directly represent the copyright holder and that the material on our system is theirs, then we are not obligated to remove it.
If they don't make the direct statement about their notice being accurate, then they have not upheld their end of the legal process.
Note to other webhosts/ISP's: You have to apply for this. You have to have your agent at the copyright office. As long as you are registered for DMCA protection, and you follow the legal process you're ok, but if you have no registered agent contact at the copyright office, then none of this applies, and no one has to make any legal statments in order to compell you to take somethign down by law.
~Wx
Re:EFF *still* suing? (Score:2)
The part about "on penalty of perjury" refers to claim that the person sending the letter, usually a lawyer, represents the injured party. It has nothing to do with the contents of the letter. Check out 17 USC 1202 for the details.
This is frequently claimed on slashdot, and it is dead wrong. By claiming under penalty of perjury to represent the copyright holder of the work in question, they certainly are claiming that the offending item is a) under copyright and b) either their work or the work of thei
Re:EFF *still* suing? (Score:2, Interesting)
The lawyer sends the C&D letter on penalty of purjury. However, if his boss (Diebold in this case) represented to him that these letters were, in fact, justified, he isn't at fault, as he believed he was acting within the extent of the DMCA (Or at least there's not way to prove otherwise in court).
And to make things worse, when Diebold told the lawyer(s) that they were justified in sending the C&D letters, THAT statement was not made under pentalty of purjury. It's one of those loop
Re:EFF *still* suing? (Score:2, Interesting)
Yes, but as soon as these claims become evidence, all parties had better have their story straight. You can say whatever you'd like until the part where you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. At that point you'd best be telling the truth. If your story does change significantly from what you said prior to the hearing or deposition, that might be a problem but it's n
Re:EFF *still* suing? (Score:5, Informative)
Read here for more infos [eff.org]
BTW (from the link above): Its not the EFF directly that is suing, they just help the nonprofit "ISP Online Policy Group" (OPG) and two Swarthmore College students
--
Re:EFF *still* suing? (Score:2)
Re:EFF *still* suing? (Score:2)
Re:EFF suing because of 17 USC 512(f) (Score:4, Informative)
Although Diebold has agreed not to take any further action in these cases, that doesn't make up for the fact that they have blatantly abused the DMCA provisions in the past. It's kind of like being run over by a car, and then having the driver say, "well, I won't drive anymore." It doesn't exactly make you whole.
Also, OPG [onlinepolicy.org] has asserted an interference with contractual relations claim-- essentially saying that Diebold is interfering with the contract between Hurricane Electric [he.net] (the ISP) and its client, OPG. See section 3 of the application for a temporary restraining order [eff.org].
Re:EFF *still* suing? (Score:4, Interesting)
Just off the top of my head, but this might be why:
The North Canton, Ohio-based Diebold
In other words, they admit that they're only backing off because of the bad press, and not because they've had an epifany that what they're doing is fundamentally wrong.
Diebold still suing (Score:2)
They should drop something else first: (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:They should drop something else first: (Score:5, Interesting)
'an executive scolded programmers for leaving software files on an Internet site without password protection.'
No, an executive should have fired programmers for leaving software files on an Internet connected site without password protection. That executive then should have been fired for having such lax security practices at one of the most important NGO's in the USA today. Diebold should then be given 1 year to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that it's systems are secure. That year should culminate in 100 of Diebold's boxes being dropped into the yearly 2600 meeting in New York City, with any successful hack recieving 10,000 dollars and the honor of ripping up all of Diebold's contracts and co-signing the order banning the sale of Diebold election machines in the US for 20 years.
They should then go to Diebold's headquarters and salt the campus.
Seriously, giving a candidate a minus 16022? Faking demos? 25% failure rates? Intentionally making audits impossible? One of these things happening at a company selling toasters would be surprising. Three would be scandalous. But a history of gross mismanagement and neglect at a company that is the first and last word in American democracy is the highest form of the word "inexcusable." If they had done many of the things that they did intentionally, they would be arrested for treason.
There is nothing in the US constitution that says grossly incompetent companies in highly trusted positions have a right to continue to exist.
Re:They should drop something else first: (Score:2)
Seriously, if those files had not been left there (to be discovered), then we wouldn't know about this mess, now would we?
Re:They should drop something else first: (Score:2)
I believe within the next 100 years, there will be a second Civil War. The growth of political, socio-economic, and technological divide in the US is accelerating. How long can the religious fundamentalist Big Brothers in power keep the masses fat and happy? The Medicare and Social Security pyramid schemes won't last forever. The backs of the younger generations will eventually break.
In other News: (Score:5, Funny)
Mittnick responded: "Erm
It's a harassment policy (Score:5, Insightful)
Companies like Diebold and its cousin, the RIAA, know that they couldn't win an actual court case against groups like BlackBoxVoting and a bunch of college students that get in the way of their draconian agendas, but what they can do is win a warrant to send their corporate servants, the fascist pig cops to trash the place, arrest the owners, take down their websites, and confiscate all their property, most of which is never returned.
After the harassment, they then drop the suits or whatever so they don't have to lose in court, and move on to other targets. The students still haven't won anything, but as long as Diebold machines live, democracy loses. The only way around it is for everyone to cast an absentee ballot, which HAVE to be hand-counted -- but it's not like voting makes a difference in corporate America, anyways. :(
Re:It's a harassment policy (Score:5, Interesting)
I think there is way too much hysteria around electronic voting.
Re:It's a harassment policy (Score:3, Insightful)
Well, all those millions sound pretty draconian to me. Additionally, if it takes that much money to convince someone of something then it can't be a pure honest fact.
Re:It's a harassment policy (Score:3, Insightful)
R&D.
and the millions of dollars spent on half-baked propaganda attempting to convince an ignorant public that such things are inherently secure
Marketing.
and the millions of dollars that are spent covering up for any flaws found in the system
Company PR.
Quite frankly, most corporations do R&D, have marketing people dreaming up ads to convince ignorant public to buy their products and try to sp
Re:It's a harassment policy (Score:3, Insightful)
But no one's giving the state's voters a choice of whether they should trust their votes to it or not.
Re:It's a harassment policy (Score:3, Interesting)
Certainly Diebold (as a company) is incompotent and of shady ethics. I'm willing to give the benefit of t
Re:It's a harassment policy (Score:2)
In the end, nobody's forcing the states to buy Diebold's machines.
Actually, they are. The purchase and use of these machines is being mandated by law. To be fair, in every election the equipment to be used is specified explicitly and in detail. Of course the applicable election laws have been in many cases broken by Diebold when they modified the machines after they had been tested and certified for use but before the election, meaning that in effect uncertified eq was being used.
So, yes, *someone* i
Draconian evidence.. (Score:2)
Re:It's a harassment policy (Score:4, Informative)
Re:It's a harassment policy (Score:5, Interesting)
Ok, their machines may be a bit flaky, but do you have any evidence of "draconian agendas"?
Well, their president promised his home state to the Republicans. How's that? Combine that with the fact that these machines are closed and, so far as we can tell, no real effort has been put into securing them or ensuring their correctness.
Re:It's a harassment policy (Score:2)
Not sure you can automatically disqualify the guy's company for his political views or activism - but such a fundamental shift in the mechanism for expressing the will of the people shouldn't be introduced without a proper understanding of the issues involved.
Problem is, neither those running the states' electoral systems nor the electorate have a proper grasp of just how hard it is to do this properly - but then it seems Diebold don't either:
Re:It's a harassment policy (Score:2)
OpenSecrets.org [opensecrets.org]
Re:It's a harassment policy (Score:2)
Perhaps professionals who hold important positions in serious matters easily prone to corruption should not joke about their potential to perform such illegal activities.
Especially when they produce a product which produces erroneous election results in which democratic candidates receive a negative number of votes and the total number of votes for Republican candidates is far larger than the number of voters. OOPS.
Re:It's a harassment policy (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:It's a harassment policy (Score:3, Interesting)
No, the reality of the situation is (note deliberate lack of qualifying "probably") that we don't know.
What we do know is that their machines are insanely insecure, have already failed in real elections, they know about it, they have tried to cover it up instead of fixing it, and have threatened to sue those who did expose these facts.
"Benefit of the doubt" is just
Re:It's a harassment policy (Score:2)
How about their CEO publically stating he would do everything he can to secure a republican victory in 2004? Sound enough like an "agenda" qualify?
You can read more about it here [onlisareinsradar.com].
Re:It's a harassment policy (Score:2)
Ok, their machines may be a bit flaky, but do you have any evidence of "draconian agendas"?
I think there is way too much hysteria around electronic voting.
Oh, I don't know, I mean I try not to be paranoid or anything, but:
Diebold's CEO is a staunch ardent Republican (as are the rest of the management, at least teh officers) and by all accounts the company tries only to hire Republicans.
Diebold's CEO not only donates huge amounts of money to the Republican party, but has publicly promised that the mac
Re:It's a harassment policy (Score:2)
Being fair, if Diebold is using lobbying, PACs, and other forms of legalised bribery at the state or federal level, they are putting a gun to the voters head by proxy...the government rules by force. If the government or state, or county mandates that voters must use Diebold machines, they get no choice. They cannot turn up at the polling station and ask to have their vote registered by hand, can they?
Re:It's a harassment policy (Score:2)
Re:It's a harassment policy (Score:2)
No, but do this instead: send in an absentee ballot. They have to manually count it.
Don't count on it. In the 2000 election it was revealed that in many elections officials do not even bother to count absentee ballots unless they think they will influence the election results. IN Florida, they were not counted at all until after the fact even though there were 20,000 of them and the election would have been won or lost by at most a couple hundred votes. If diebold delivers the kind of landslide they
Re:It's a harassment policy (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:It's a harassment policy (Score:3, Informative)
Uhhh, yes they can. Simply request a write-in ballot.
Re:It's a harassment policy (Score:2)
Well, it's official (Score:1)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Well, it's official (Score:5, Informative)
No, the first page of the first linked article says "We also advise the Court that Diebold, having issued notifications in good faith compliance with the DMCA, has decided not to take the additional step of suing for copyright infringement of the materials at issue".
The EFF (Score:5, Insightful)
Simon
Devil's Advocate (Score:2)
Now realistically, Diebold's issues were exposed, so no
Re:Devil's Advocate (Score:2)
Simon.
Re:Devil's Advocate (Score:2)
</twocoppercoins>
Re:Devil's Advocate (Score:4, Insightful)
It doesn't matter if Diebold (insofar as there is a "Diebold" and not just a grouping of people) truly believes that it's DMCA takedown notices are a legitimate, honest use of the law, although I find it difficult to believe that - it's far more likely that they don't give two shits about the legitimacy of it, and instead are trying to supress information that makes them look bad in an utterly predictable corporate behavior. Thier ACTIONS are reprehensible, at least to me. Thier motives aren't really relevent.
Re:Devil's Advocate (Score:2)
So I truly, honestly, believe that black people are inferior to whites and therefore I, in my official capacity as a government employee, do my best to ensure that benefits and such go to white people and not black people. Should I be punished for what I believe in?
No.
You should, however, be punished for what you do. There's a world of difference there; one is thoughtcrime, the other is an action. Or, to borrow a phrase, "Thier ACTIONS are reprehensible, at least to me. Thier motives aren't really rele
Re:Devil's Advocate (Score:3, Interesting)
Go EFF! (Score:2, Funny)
Take a chain with a ball
And bash them on the head
Till their madness is dead
(Next poster please continue)
I'll say it for the millionth time (Score:5, Interesting)
Hey, I'm a fan of the capitalist ethos as much as the next guy, but when it comes to the interests of the populous [smh.com.au] it's clearly more responsible [newsforge.com] to choose open source and open standards. Should we really trust Our Data to invisible source code written by anonymous programmers ensconced in a proprietary bubble?
I guess we shouldn't be so surprised that the elite don't have the interests [wired.com] of the populous at heart. Hmm, maybe there's a worm [ipjustice.org] in the Capitalist apple.... It's time the Open Source Community made it clear that we are an essential element of the free market ecosystem and not some fringe element to be vilified and marginalized.
Re:I'll say it for the millionth time (Score:2, Informative)
Firstly, referring to Australia as a "continent entirely people by convicts" only shows your ignorance about the history of both Australia and [nics.gov.uk] America [dinsdoc.com]. Secondly, the electronic voting only took place in the ACT, not Australia, where voting is done via pencil and paper, not electronically for
Re:I'll say it for the millionth time (Score:2)
I'll grant you that, if you'll grant me your ignorance of oblique Princess Bride references.
Re:I'll say it for the millionth time (Score:2)
Re:I'll say it for the millionth time (Score:2)
Score one for the good guys (Score:5, Insightful)
Um... I thought Diebold machines _WERE_ used! (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Um... I thought Diebold machines _WERE_ used! (Score:5, Informative)
Diebold machines were used widely in the 2000 election, the 2002 congressional elections, and will be similarly used in 2004. Georgia, for example, exclusively uses Diebold for their polling machines, and other states are similarly locked in (although the list escapes me at this early hour.)
The use of black-box voting systems is a threat to democracy. I believe that opposing it with violence is not only necessary but ethically justified.
Re:Um... I thought Diebold machines _WERE_ used! (Score:5, Insightful)
Using violence does not take power away from the govenment, it gives the government MORE power.
It NEVER works. The only way for average joes to work the system is to pressure their elected things into doing so, without violence, and probably WITH the proper palm greasing.
Re:Um... I thought Diebold machines _WERE_ used! (Score:2)
Using violence does not take power away from the govenment, it gives the government MORE power.
You are right, of course. I should have been more clear: I support destroying Diebold voting machines at the polling locations. Nothing more.
My apologies. It was early.
Re:Um... I thought Diebold machines _WERE_ used! (Score:5, Insightful)
The best thing anyone can do is create public outcry, and pressure the press into reporting on this sort of thing. Unfortunately, even though NPR has done a halfway decent job reporting on DIEBOLD, as compared with the other bread and circus news outlets (e.g. FAUX news) people still prefer to stick their head in the sand. Destroying a machine at a polling place will not cure apathy.
In fact, destroying their equipment will get them SYMPATHY that the sycophantic republican press is dying to give them anyway.
Re:Um... I thought Diebold machines _WERE_ used! (Score:2)
Except when it does.
For further reading, look up the history of any country on Earth.
Re:Um... I thought Diebold machines _WERE_ used! (Score:2)
Re:Um... I thought Diebold machines _WERE_ used! (Score:2)
The scary thing is that I'm not sure anymore whether this is a joke or not. It's weird when saying anything even remotely critical of the government or policy (or the prez) gets people looking at you with that "you're a terrorist" look in their eyes.
Admittedly, the parent of the parent was talking about commiting an illegal act that would really only deprive the people of a county (or part thereof) the place to express their vote. This is arguable, but n
Starting a PAC to lobby for sensible copyright law (Score:5, Interesting)
It would be like a Howard Dean phenomena, except aiming to restore sanity to digital and non-digital intellectual property laws. First task: repeal the DMCA. Then, get rid of the hideous Sonny Bono legislation. Public opinion would overwhelmingly be behind the efforts too.
What do Slashdotters think. Time to start a revolution right here, right now?
Re:Starting a PAC to lobby for sensible copyright (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Starting a PAC to lobby for sensible copyright (Score:2)
I'm not so sure this parent is insightful. The billions of dollars is gross income made by media corporations. The RIAA is not selling music to anyone. The RIAA is just a PR organization that large music corporations give money to. I'd be willing to bet that the total budget of the RIAA is closer to 10 million dollars then 100 million dollars. I seriously doubt that major music corporations would be willing to donate much more of their operating income then that. Unless, of course, they get some kind
Treating the symptom, not the problem (Score:2)
Re:Treating the symptom, not the problem (Score:3, Interesting)
That's a pretty common problem with Diebold systems though - they give a very good impression of having no understanding at all of any computer security concepts... pop quiz, would you rather trust them with your votes [scoop.co.nz] or your money [securityfocus.com]?
Fuckwits can't even make their ATMs safe from Windoze RPC DCOM worms after M$ put out the patch. Though what we're doing allowing cash machines to run M$OS (with RPC turned on
There's no "should" about it (Score:5, Informative)
You obviously haven't seen the documents. The most famous is:
I need some answers! Our department is being audited by the County. I have been waiting for someone to give me an explanation as to why Precinct 216 gave Al Gore a minus 16022 when it was uploaded. Will someone please explain this so that I have the information to give the auditor instead of standing here "looking dumb".
Lana Hires - Volusia County Florida - January 17, 2001 8:07 AM
The very point of releasing the documents is that a Diebold product helped _create_ a situation like that.
Get the memos here! (Score:5, Informative)
And more mirrors (Score:2, Informative)
It appears to me (Score:5, Insightful)
Are they open source now? (Score:5, Interesting)
I think we can call this "Open source by accident", or perhaps "Almost Open Source", then again "Effectively Open Source" sounds good as well. I for one would like to thank Diebold for leaving the source code were we can all look at it.
On to a more serious matter - the code SHOULD be open to scrutiny, especially by third party, independant coders. Then again, running on top of a MS OS, that may have a virus or back door scare me. What about a voteing machine that runs from a bootabel CD-Rom? The results are all kept in memory with a line printer and some smart cryptography as a backup/confirmation? It shouldn't be hard, the CD's could be inspected post election to make sure that the voting program code wasn't tampered with (unlike hard drives where I could tamper with the code and no one owuld know it). Seems to me the open source community could do a lot better in short order. PS the username and password for the open source code would be anonymous and myvotcounts@fukudiebold.com
Re:Are they open source now? (Score:3, Insightful)
The way to design any system is to start off by defining what it is that a system is supposed to achieve. The only answer that you can then come up with is a secret ballot on paper voting slips.
How hard is it to
Re:Are they open source now? (Score:2)
Ever heard of erasers?
Perhaps you meant "pens".
Also, individual voting slips can be "misplaced".
At any rate, your (non-machine) method would require hand-counting by humans, and studies have shown that the more humans are placed into the mix, the more inaccurate are the results.
What is needed is a way to remove humans from the voting process entirely.
Re:Are they open source now? (Score:2)
Because this is impossible (humans will need to instruct the machine that will replace them), the system needs to be completely transparent to all (or a large number of) humans. Lessening the number of humans involved will just increase the probability of fraud. Hundreds of thousands of people with different goals (even if they are all bent on rigging the election) will have less of a total impact than one programmer (even among a
Sigh (Score:2)
Of course humans can't be removed from the voting process; they're the ones who vote!
However, I stand by the rest of my statement: studies have shown that the more humans are placed into the mix, the more inaccurate are the results.
If you want to argue with the studies, fine.
I totally agree with you that the system (the whole system) needs to be completely transparent to anybody and everybody who wants to look at it, except for those parts that would reveal the way that a particul
Whoosh (Score:2)
Seriously, though, I agree with the studies, but I feel that loss of accuracy (recorded votes corresponding to actual votes) isn't terribly detrimental except in very close races. As long as there isn't some vast conspiracy working very efficiently, the results will be inaccurate but not consistantly skewed in any one direction.
I feel that inaccuracies such as these will overall be less harmful than computer counted extremely accurate systems that are in the control of only a few hands.
It seems that we're
Re:Whoosh (Score:2)
Whoosh is the sound of jokes flying over my head after too little sleep.
Gentoo voting machines? (Score:5, Interesting)
I can examine the ballet paper, I can watch the ballet box take my slip of paper and see it opened at the counting station, not having some level of proof that it's actually doing what it's supposed to do is a rather poor system.
How much can it cost to build? (Score:2, Informative)
I mean, we plan on spending almost $3 billion in farm aid for 2004 - why can't we just set aside $100MM for a secure, reliable, verifiable voting platform? Would that be enough money?
??
Re:How much can it cost to build? (Score:2)
The AP version made me cringe (Score:5, Insightful)
"Enthusiasts"? Sort of makes it sound like the Bill of Rights is a remote-controlled airplane, doesn't it? (Hey, what's your hobby? Mine is living in a free society... That and Pinochle.)
Odd word choice in an odd story altogether. (Diebold, a banking company that makes ATMs, bought out this voting machine company. Amazing how their expertise in the one area seemingly doesn't translate. I mean, this story starts when someone cracks into their e-mail system using an employee's ID. Bad start to a story about the lack of security, yes? The e-mails show a geuinely cavalier attitude about the perception of their clients -- bizarre in a banker, you'd think. Then they bluster around sending their C&D letters, the effect only being to make their problems more conspicuous. Does this make sense in a company that makes banking equipment? You'd think they'd have their PR act together. Bankers do not project this sort of cavalier bluster.)
Re:The AP version made me cringe (Score:2)
Re:The AP version made me cringe (Score:2)
Apparently, Diebold's ATM machines aren't worth squat either. Some of them actually got hit by the Nachi worm [theregister.co.uk]. So there you folks in the United States are, forced to entrust your votes and your money to a company that doesn't seem to know the first thing about security, and has made its partisan bias clearly known. :(
Support HR 2239 (Score:5, Informative)
The first is that every electronic voting machine shall leave behind a verified-by-the-voter paper receipt for recount purposes. This, of course, gives the voters an understandable avenue of recourse in the case of a suspect election.
The second is that all source code for running the machine shall be made available to the public. Not quite open-source, but, shall we say, viewable-source. This would allow security experts to check the code behind the voting-machine companies to make sure that it is secure.
Please check this [verifiedvoting.org] website to see if your congresscritter is part of the Committee on House Administration and urge them to vote this bill out of committee. Even if they're not, showing support to your congressperson could lead to increased pressure on those in the committee to vote the bill out.
Presidential candidate Kucinich is co-sponsor (Score:3, Informative)
If you slashdotters want someone who will back you and fight for you on Internet and software issues, Dennis Kucinich is the man. Diebold would probably still be going on with the lawsuits if Dennis had not defied Diebold by publishing links to the memos on his website.
diebold has only one option... (Score:2)
Until they do that I do not trust, and will not trust any voting machine products they sell, and will advise others to also not trust them.
Write in your vote (Score:2)
Send your vote by mail.
Meet the guy who designed the code (Score:2, Interesting)
US Rep Kucinich caused this by linking to memos (Score:5, Insightful)
Kucinich appears to be one of the few politicians who will stand up for the citizen againt the corporations. He is certainly the only presidential candidate to do so....
Kucinich wants investigation of Diebold DMCA abuse (Score:2)
Court Suit Still Pending. (Score:2)
Have you told congress to Verify The Vote?
Sign the petition here [eff.org]
Open Source alternative? (Score:2)
If there actually was an alternative system, it would probably be more likely to outcompete Diebold than mere talk and complaining. Especially if it were written by unpaid volonteers and sold at a much lower price by a non profit foundation.
As many have said, it doesn't seem a terribly difficult task to count a few thousand events over a day in a secure and verifiable manner. Loo
Why does ANYONE want these machines? (Score:2)
Another thing... why are people so hard for getting the results of a