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Librarian of Congress Posts DMCA Exemptions

Posted by timothy on Tue Oct 28, 2003 09:54 PM
from the fair-use-bleeds-in-ditch dept.
MrNerdHair writes "The Librarian of Congress has posted a list of exemptions from the DMCA (also obtainable in PDF here.) Works falling in four 'classes' may be considered exempt from Section 1201 of the DMCA's prohibition against 'circumvention of a technological measure which effectively controls access to a work.' Among the list are blacklists of sites used in programs such as NetNanny and cracks to bypass dongles on abandonware. All in all, a very interesting read ..." Not just interesting: as Robin Gross writes, "Unfortunately, the ruling leaves the vast majority of consumers unable to access their own property, such as skipping commercials on DVDs, playing CDs in their PCs, and reading eBooks on PDA's without violating the DMCA." Update: 10/29 15:19 GMT by T : Take a look at Seth Finkelstein's site for an idea of how being pushy can sometimes be helpful; Finkelstein has loudly pushed for the importance of DMCA exemptions, including in Congressional testimony.
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  • What are my rights? (Score:1, Offtopic)

    by Toasty16 (586358) on Tuesday October 28 2003, @09:57PM (#7334968)
    (http://home.mchsi.com/~toasty/)
    Can I save this this list as an html file and burn it to CD and distribute it legally?
    • by silentbozo (542534) on Tuesday October 28 2003, @10:00PM (#7334979)
      (Last Journal: Sunday April 17 2005, @07:20PM)
      It's a very, very, very short list. You could print it on a t-shirt, or on a postcard. It's nice to know that we have SOME rights, but even then these exemptions are set to expire in 3 years. Here it is:
      (1) Compilations consisting of lists of Internet locations blocked by commercially marketed filtering software applications that are intended to prevent access to domains, websites or portions of websites, but not including lists of Internet locations blocked by software applications that operate exclusively to protect against damage to a computer or computer network or lists of Internet locations blocked by software applications that operate exclusively to prevent receipt of email.


      (2) Computer programs protected by dongles that prevent access due to malfunction or damage and which are obsolete.

      (3) Computer programs and video games distributed in formats that have become obsolete and which require the original media or hardware as a condition of access. A format shall be considered obsolete if the machine or system necessary to render perceptible a work stored in that format is no longer manufactured or is no longer reasonably available in the commercial marketplace.

      (4) Literary works distributed in ebook format when all existing ebook editions of the work (including digital text editions made available by authorized entities) contain access controls that prevent the enabling of the ebook's read-aloud function and that prevent the enabling of screen readers to render the text into a specialized format.

      Definitions. (1) "Internet locations" are defined to include domains, uniform resource locators (URLs), numeric IP addresses or any combination thereof. (3) "Obsolete" shall mean "no longer manufactured or reasonably available in the commercial marketplace." (3) "Specialized format," "digital text" and "authorized entities" shall have the same meaning as in 17 U.S.C. 121.

      These exemptions will remain in effect through October 27, 2006.
      [ Parent ]
    • Re:What are my rights? by t0ny (Score:2) Wednesday October 29 2003, @05:37AM
    • Re:What are my rights? by ManVsRice (Score:1) Wednesday October 29 2003, @09:16AM
    • 3 replies beneath your current threshold.
  • How do I get that job? (Score:5, Funny)

    by bcolflesh (710514) on Tuesday October 28 2003, @09:58PM (#7334970)
    (http://www.redstream.org/)
    "The Librarian of Congress"?

    She must be busy as hell!
  • The saddest thing (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Dancin_Santa (265275) <DancinSanta@gmail.com> on Tuesday October 28 2003, @09:58PM (#7334971)
    (Last Journal: Friday December 24 2004, @08:49PM)
    The saddest thing about this whole DMCA fiasco is that there were enough people illegally distributing copyrighted works that the publishers saw fit to put these idiotic controls in.

    Both sides are wrong, but it was the copyright infringers who were wrong first.

    Now we are stuck with these controls and a completely braindead law that makes it a crime to exercise what was once accepted as 'inalienable rights'.
    • Re:The saddest thing by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Tuesday October 28 2003, @10:09PM
      • Re:The saddest thing (Score:5, Insightful)

        by shaitand (626655) on Tuesday October 28 2003, @10:26PM (#7335127)
        (http://www.ganjablogger.com/ | Last Journal: Thursday January 05 2006, @05:36PM)
        That's BS, it's not like copyright infringement has been or was any worse than it was before the digital age. The only things that changed were hard economic times and the copyright holders believing they now had the technical means to control their works in ways that were never before possible. When they found out that the technical means were there, but that their money couldn't buy enough technical prowess to keep these new controls in place, they lobbied for laws so that they could.

        This has never been about people infringing copyright, it's about control and maximizing profit. These changes came about as a result of it being technology possible to restrict buyers this way, NOT as a result of people needing to be restricted.
        [ Parent ]
        • Re:The saddest thing (Score:4, Insightful)

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 28 2003, @10:32PM (#7335170)
          Agreed.

          This is all about protecting a business model that political, social, and technological changes has rendered depreciated.

          Take a look at the upheaval AC power created, and the underhanded, illegal and unethical (by today's standards) tactics used by "big business" to protect that monopoly.

          The old saw about "...who ignore history..." has never been truer.
          [ Parent ]
        • Re:The saddest thing by Aidtopia (Score:2) Wednesday October 29 2003, @12:10PM
        • Re:The saddest thing by gpinzone (Score:2) Wednesday October 29 2003, @12:12PM
        • Re:The saddest thing (Score:4, Insightful)

          by shaitand (626655) on Tuesday October 28 2003, @11:16PM (#7335373)
          (http://www.ganjablogger.com/ | Last Journal: Thursday January 05 2006, @05:36PM)
          "I think any competent programmer would tell you that any software copy-protection method, and nearly any hardware copy-protection method CAN be circumvented. Therefore it became necessary for those methods to have some force of law behind them."

          I won't let this degrade into a "did! did not!" debate. But if copyright infringement got worse PROSECUTE. Copyright infringement was ALREADY illegal. The only extension the DMCA added of significance is that it's now illegal to circumvent protective measures EVEN WHERE THEY EXTEND WELL BEYOND the limited controls given by copyright.

          Remember the RIAA nor the musicians own the music, the people own the music. The people have said thankyou for their contribution by giving them LIMITED control for a LIMITED period of time over LIMITED aspects of OUR property.

          Personally I think we need a new DMCA, toss out the old one, copyright holders (myself included, I have copyrights for books, poems, source code, and web content) should lose copyright if they choose technological protections in place of it. They should be mutually exclusive, either you depend on the law and press for it to be enforced, OR you depend on vigilante self enforcement.
          [ Parent ]
        • Re:The saddest thing by cpt kangarooski (Score:3) Tuesday October 28 2003, @11:50PM
        • Re:The saddest thing by shaitand (Score:2) Wednesday October 29 2003, @02:04AM
          • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
        • Re:The saddest thing by Pofy (Score:3) Wednesday October 29 2003, @05:50AM
        • 3 replies beneath your current threshold.
    • Re:The saddest thing by hhknighter (Score:2) Tuesday October 28 2003, @10:43PM
    • Be careful by MunchMunch (Score:3) Tuesday October 28 2003, @11:17PM
      • Re:Be careful by bninja_penguin (Score:2) Wednesday October 29 2003, @09:07PM
        • Re:Be careful by MisterMook (Score:2) Wednesday November 05 2003, @05:55AM
    • Re:The saddest thing by NanoGator (Score:2) Tuesday October 28 2003, @11:17PM
    • This isn't about file sharing by rsilvergun (Score:3) Tuesday October 28 2003, @11:23PM
    • Re:The saddest thing by rutledjw (Score:2) Tuesday October 28 2003, @11:55PM
    • Re:The saddest thing by CB-in-Tokyo (Score:1) Wednesday October 29 2003, @12:27AM
      • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
    • Speaking of Seth's site by bonch (Score:2) Wednesday October 29 2003, @02:01PM
    • 3 replies beneath your current threshold.
  • "Effectively ..."? (Score:5, Funny)

    by ironcladlou (681078) on Tuesday October 28 2003, @09:58PM (#7334973)
    (http://mecko.net/)
    "circumvention of a technological measure which effectively controls access to a work."

    If it can be circumvented, then it's not really that effective, now is it?
  • Interesting (Score:1, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 28 2003, @09:58PM (#7334974)
    The ruling seems to be very clueful. It appears that the LOC has spoken, and the bottom line is that "fair use" isn't defined as "anything I want it to be".
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • It should be the other way round (Score:4, Insightful)

    by caston (711568) on Tuesday October 28 2003, @10:01PM (#7334986)
    Really there should be a list of things that ARE covered by the DCMA so that companies can't blidning through the DCMA around everytime they feel threatended.
  • All in all.... (Score:1, Redundant)

    by di0s (582680) <cabbot917.gmail@com> on Tuesday October 28 2003, @10:02PM (#7334991)
    (http://www.xaero.org/ | Last Journal: Thursday June 30 2005, @05:06PM)
    It's a start...
  • one site text... (Score:1, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 28 2003, @10:02PM (#7334992)
    Created with word or something similarly evil, but here it is:

    IP Justice Media Release

    Contact: Robin Gross, IP Justice Executive Director

    +1 415-553-6261 robin@ipjustice.org

    October 28, 2003

    US Copyright Office DMCA Ruling Issued
    Consumers Still Unable to Make Lawful Use of Digital Media

    Today the US Librarian of Congress issued its Ruling in the triennial proceedings pursuant to the US Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) to determine possible exemptions to the DMCA's general ban on circumvention of technological restrictions controlling copyrighted works. Unfortunately, the ruling leaves the vast majority of consumers unable to access their own property, such as skipping commercials on DVDs, playing CDs in their PCs, and reading eBooks on PDA's without violating the DMCA.

    The Librarian's ruling is based upon the recommendation of the US Copyright Office after conducting its public study on the adverse impact on the ability to make fair use and other lawful uses of digital media.

    The US Librarian of Congress has created the following four narrow exemptions from the DMCA's general ban on circumvention for the next three-years:

    1. Compilations consisting of lists of Internet locations blocked by commercially marketed filtering software applications that are intended to prevent access to domains, websites or portions of websites, but not including lists of Internet locations blocked by software applications that operate exclusively to protect against damage to a computer or computer network or lists of Internet locations blocked by software applications that operate exclusively to prevent receipt of email.

    2. Computer programs protected by dongles that prevent access due to malfunction or damage and which are obsolete.

    3. Computer programs and video games distributed in formats that have become obsolete and which require the original media or hardware as a condition of access.

    4. Literary works distributed in ebook format when all existing ebook editions of the work (including digital text editions made available by authorized entities) contain access controls that prevent the enabling of the ebook's read-aloud function and that prevent the enabling of screen readers to render the text into a specialized format

    The first two exemptions are very similar to the original two exemptions granted by the Librarian in the first DMCA Rulemaking in 2000. While the two new exemptions will be useful to a small handful of consumers, the Librarian's ruling still leaves the vast majority of legitimate consumer uses of digital media illegal under the DMCA.

    During the Rulemaking, IP Justice requested the Librarian issue exemptions to permit consumers to access their DVDs, CDs, and ebooks on the devices of their choosing and in the manner of their choosing.

    "Its disappointing that the US Copyright Office and Librarian continue to relinquish their power to protect the rights of American consumers to lawfully use their own property as Congress had intended when it created this rulemaking proceeding in 1998," said IP Justice Executive Director Robin Gross, who testified in both the 2000 and 2003 US Copyright Office Hearings.

    Even though the Librarian's ruling creating exemptions to the DMCA's general ban on circumvention under 1201 (a)(1), all the tools that are necessary to practically carry out that exemption are still forbidden under 1201(a)(2).

    In the 2000 US Copyright Office DMCA Rulemaking, two exemptions were issued to the general ban on circumvention.

    1. Compilations consisting of lists of Web sites blocked by filtering software applications.
    2. Literary works, including computer programs and databases, protected by access control mechanisms that fail to permit access because of malfunction, damage or obsolescence.

    US Copyright Office Ruling of Oct. 28, 2003:

    http://www.copyright.gov/1201/

    The Recommendation of th
  • Question... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by beakerMeep (716990) on Tuesday October 28 2003, @10:02PM (#7334993)
    What defines abandonware? Seems like there could be problems with that. For instance, in the publishing industry it is possible for a company to sit on a book that has gone stale for decades only to republish it someday when it looks to be profitable again. What's to stop a software company from making the same (possibly illogical?) argument?

    • Re:Question... by Dancin_Santa (Score:1) Tuesday October 28 2003, @10:04PM
      • Re:Question... (Score:4, Insightful)

        by spinkham (56603) on Tuesday October 28 2003, @10:25PM (#7335121)
        Doesn't matter. Basically, this means that if you bought a NES game, and the NES is no longer on the market, you can write a program that allows you to use the game you bought in another way (like an emulator, for example).
        It does not invalidate the copyright on the game, and allow you to redistribute the rom, or to download the rom from somewhere else. It just lets you get at what you have bought to be used in a way the maker didn't design for you.
        Using the term "abandonware" which people connect with downloading roms you have not purchased an original cartridge or software license for only confuses the issue.
        [ Parent ]
        • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
    • Re:Question... by Fancia (Score:2) Tuesday October 28 2003, @10:33PM
      • Re:Question... by mcubed (Score:3) Tuesday October 28 2003, @11:27PM
      • Re:Question... by cpt kangarooski (Score:1) Tuesday October 28 2003, @11:36PM
    • Re:Question... by SiO2 (Score:1) Tuesday October 28 2003, @10:43PM
      • Re:Question... by John Hansen (Score:1) Wednesday October 29 2003, @12:46AM
    • Re:Question... by dtfinch (Score:2) Tuesday October 28 2003, @10:57PM
    • Re:Question... (Score:5, Interesting)

      by mcubed (556032) on Tuesday October 28 2003, @11:17PM (#7335376)
      (http://slashdot.org/)

      For instance, in the publishing industry it is possible for a company to sit on a book that has gone stale for decades only to republish it someday when it looks to be profitable again.

      Could you cite an example? Overwhelmingly, the copyrights on books are held by the books' authors, not by the original publishers. After a publisher puts a book out-of-print, the publishing rights revert to the author, or whomever has inherited his estate. If the book is republished at a later time, it's because the copyright holders resells the publishing rights. Publishers don't "sit on a book" -- they can't, they will lose the right to publish it.

      I don't think the situation is analogous. A software company that holds the copyright to a particular piece of software that it has abandoned still has the right to prevent anyone else from exploiting that software, if it wishes. It can also make it clear that it doesn't care what anyone does with the software. What the Librarian of Congress has done is allowed a DMCA exemption that permits cracking encryption on obsolete software so that it is still accessible; the exemption doesn't by itself remove the copyright holder's privilege.

      Michael

      [ Parent ]
      • Re:Question... by cyberformer (Score:2) Wednesday October 29 2003, @02:29AM
      • On back order,,, by hughk (Score:2) Wednesday October 29 2003, @09:30AM
      • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
    • Re:Question... (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Quarters (18322) on Tuesday October 28 2003, @11:20PM (#7335386)
      Your example is more akin to software, not the devices used to protect it.

      A good case for this would be Discreet's 3DS Max R3.x. It used a parallel port hardware dongle made by Rainbow. The dongles were exceedingly fragile and would blow out (thus rendering the software useless) quite often. The problem was so bad that eventually Discreet set up a web page to automate the process of entering complaints and getting new dongles sent out.

      While Discreet is on R6 of Max now (with software based licensing schemes), R3 is still a valid product and can be used on modern hardware. A lot of motherboards don't have parallel ports, though. And, even for those that do, Discreet doesn't support R3 any more. They won't replace dead dongles. I don't think that Rainbow is around any more, either. So, when (not if, because it will happen) your dongle goes PFFFFT you will probably be out of luck.

      Now the LoC is saying that in such an instance downloading, or creating, a hack to 3ds max R3 that circumvents the dongle check would be allowable. That is a good thing.

      [ Parent ]
      • Re:Question... by RogerWilco (Score:1) Wednesday October 29 2003, @01:55PM
    • I have a notion... by fireboy1919 (Score:2) Wednesday October 29 2003, @12:31AM
    • Re:Question... by Maserati (Score:2) Wednesday October 29 2003, @02:46AM
    • Re:Question... by Threni (Score:1) Wednesday October 29 2003, @08:43AM
    • Re:Question... by kabocox (Score:1) Wednesday October 29 2003, @09:42AM
    • 2 replies beneath your current threshold.
  • of COURSE! (Score:1)

    by gid13 (620803) on Tuesday October 28 2003, @10:02PM (#7334995)
    When we say LOCs, we don't mean libraries of congress, it's how many LIBRARIANS of congress will fit on a drive, or be passed across a network, or whatever. It all makes sense now...
  • Sweet (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Wah (30840) on Tuesday October 28 2003, @10:03PM (#7335000)
    (http://quantumphilosophy.net/ | Last Journal: Tuesday December 21 2004, @08:23PM)
    The US Librarian of Congress has created the following four narrow exemptions from the DMCA's general ban on circumvention for the next three-years:

    1. Compilations consisting of lists of Internet locations blocked by commercially marketed filtering software applications that are intended to prevent access to domains, websites or portions of websites, but not including lists of Internet locations blocked by software applications that operate exclusively to protect against damage to a computer or computer network or lists of Internet locations blocked by software applications that operate exclusively to prevent receipt of email.

    2. Computer programs protected by dongles that prevent access due to malfunction or damage and which are obsolete.

    3. Computer programs and video games distributed in formats that have become obsolete and which require the original media or hardware as a condition of access.

    4. Literary works distributed in ebook format when all existing ebook editions of the work (including digital text editions made available by authorized entities) contain access controls that prevent the enabling of the ebook's read-aloud function and that prevent the enabling of screen readers to render the text into a specialized format


    Windows 95 is considered obsolete and unsupported by Microsoft, right? And doesn't that end many questions on MAME?

    I can't wait for the next round of exceptions.
    • Sorry, but no. (Score:5, Interesting)

      by DarkZero (516460) on Tuesday October 28 2003, @10:13PM (#7335054)
      Windows 95 is considered obsolete and unsupported by Microsoft, right? And doesn't that end many questions on MAME?

      This ruling merely creates exceptions to the DMCA, i.e. cracking the protection on a work, not distributing it. Therefore, as Windows 95 is a copyrighted work and you don't need to crack its protection to get it to work on a PC (its native format), this ruling does not affect Windows 95 in any way. And the only thing it changes for MAME is that it makes it legal to crack the protection on arcade boards to decrypt and emulate them. It's still illegal to trade abandonware ROMs/ISOs.
      [ Parent ]
    • Re:Sweet (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Fryed (205364) on Tuesday October 28 2003, @10:23PM (#7335109)
      And doesn't that end many questions on MAME?


      Well, the way I read this (IANAL), it now seems legal to break the whatever copyright protection was installed onto a game if the format of the game has become obsolete, and which in unaltered form would require the original media/hardware to use. So basically, if you own an old, obsolete arcade game, you can legally circumvent the copyright protection so that you can extract the ROM and use it on your PC.

      Now, how many MAME users actually own old arcade hardware, and intend to use MAME to play that arcade game? Distributing the ROMs to anyone is still illegal, but I guess it would now be legal for me to tell you how to rip the ROM out of your own board yourself.

      Windows 95 is considered obsolete and unsupported by Microsoft, right?

      Yes, Windows 95 is considered obsolete by Microsoft, but the format it is distributed on (CDs) are not. Furthermore, there's not really any DRM on the Windows 95 cd anyway, aside from the installation program asking for a valid key, so the point is moot.

      What this exemption really means is that if, in the future, software was distributed on DRM enabled media, and then further into the future, the DRM media they 'obsolete' and few people had drives that could read them, it would be legal to tell someone how to extract data from that media and use it on the current hardware.
      [ Parent ]
      • Re:Sweet by Bakaneko (Score:1) Wednesday October 29 2003, @12:41AM
    • Re:Sweet by HermanAB (Score:2) Wednesday October 29 2003, @01:33AM
      • Re:Sweet by Haeleth (Score:1) Wednesday October 29 2003, @11:19AM
        • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
    • Not quite, however.... by abb3w (Score:1) Wednesday October 29 2003, @09:21AM
  • The text of #3:

    (3) Computer programs and video games distributed in formats that have become obsolete and which require the original media or hardware as a condition of access. A format shall be considered obsolete if the machine or system necessary to render perceptible a work stored in that format is no longer manufactured or is no longer reasonably available in the commercial marketplace.

    Doesn't this make emulators like MAME and the use of ROMS legal now?
  • From the website:

    (1) Compilations consisting of lists of Internet locations blocked by commercially marketed filtering software applications that are intended to prevent access to domains, websites or portions of websites, but not including lists of Internet locations blocked by software applications that operate exclusively to protect against damage to a computer or computer network or lists of Internet locations blocked by software applications that operate exclusively to prevent receipt of email.

    (2) Computer programs protected by dongles that prevent access due to malfunction or damage and which are obsolete.

    (3) Computer programs and video games distributed in formats that have become obsolete and which require the original media or hardware as a condition of access. A format shall be considered obsolete if the machine or system necessary to render perceptible a work stored in that format is no longer manufactured or is no longer reasonably available in the commercial marketplace.

    (4) Literary works distributed in ebook format when all existing ebook editions of the work (including digital text editions made available by authorized entities) contain access controls that prevent the enabling of the ebook's read-aloud function and that prevent the enabling of screen readers to render the text into a specialized format.

    Definitions. (1) ?Internet locations? are defined to include domains, uniform resource locators (URLs), numeric IP addresses or any combination thereof.
    (3) ?Obsolete? shall mean ?no longer manufactured or reasonably available in the commercial marketplace.?
    (3) ?Specialized format,? ?digital text? and ?authorized entities? shall have the same meaning as in 17 U.S.C. 121.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 28 2003, @10:06PM (#7335021)
    Just leave the US.
    Go NOW before they figure it out.
    Leave before the building of the.
    Two transcontinental walls.
    You will have a better chance.
    with appropriate aluminum headgear.
  • You own the disc. (Score:2, Insightful)

    by /dev/trash (182850) on Tuesday October 28 2003, @10:08PM (#7335025)
    (http://s87365085.onlinehome.us/ | Last Journal: Tuesday October 28 2003, @04:22PM)
    You license the content.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 28 2003, @10:09PM (#7335033)
    From the "Exemptions Considered, But Not Recommended" section:
    8. Proposed class: Musical works, sound recordings, and audiovisual works embodied in media that are or may become inaccessible by possessors of lawfully- made copies due to malfunction, damage, or obsoleteness. ... The Register concludes that the proponents have not made the case with respect to fragility of DVDs, ...
    So, I guess we need to find the General Counsel's DVD collection and demonstrate their fragility.
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • If you haven't already... (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Pan T. Hose (707794) on Tuesday October 28 2003, @10:14PM (#7335059)
    (http://plato.stanford.edu/ | Last Journal: Tuesday March 15 2005, @10:46AM)
    If you haven't already read The Right to Read [gnu.org], do it while you still have the right to do it. From what I witness it might change in the near future. Funny that we all were laughing at Richard when he wrote his "dystopian science fiction which will never happen outside of a paranoid mind guarded with a tinfoil hat" and at the same time we all kept allowing it to slowly happen. And who looks like a fool now? Not Richard but us. It certainly doesn't make me feel proud at all.
  • by puzzled (12525) on Tuesday October 28 2003, @10:18PM (#7335078)
    (Last Journal: Monday February 20 2006, @09:53AM)
    When the 'iron horse' was making its way across the plains the communities along the way made up all sorts of laws restricting what could and could not be done with a train. The most shrill DMCA supporters are the twenty first century equivalent of buggy whip makers from the nineteenth century.

    Quick! Name three buggy whip vendors! Ah ... can't think of any, can you?

    The GNU battering ram is going to level Microsoft, Sun, SCO, SGI, and it'll take a large bite out of Cisco, Nortel, Avaya, and the like as well.

    The US will try to restrain it, the rest of the world will embrace it, and after a brief period of agonizing over brainstem companies like M$ that just don't realize they're mostly dead already, the tide will reverse. Its going to take a generation and I don't mean an internet time generation, but the outcome is inevitable.

    • Buggy whip vendors? (Score:4, Funny)

      by dmeranda (120061) on Tuesday October 28 2003, @10:45PM (#7335237)
      (http://deron.meranda.us/)
      Quick! Name three buggy whip vendors! Ah ... can't think of any, can you?

      You mean like,

      • IBM. Intagliated Buggy Makers
      • Sun. Sleighs Unlimited and Necessities
      • SCO. The Stolen Carriage Overlords
      • SGI. Stagecoach and Grazing Implements
      • Cisco. Carriage Industrial Supply Company
      [ Parent ]
  • What are dongles (Score:3, Funny)

    by use_compress (627082) on Tuesday October 28 2003, @10:21PM (#7335097)
    (Last Journal: Thursday February 26 2004, @12:47AM)
    May someone please give me a non-obscene definition of the word 'dongles?'
  • by seriv (698799) on Tuesday October 28 2003, @10:22PM (#7335103)
    It is a horrible law, it should have never been passed. There are enough problems with it that it woiuld be easier to repeal it, you know, governments doing something for the people instead of big business. This is just peanuts to all the problems it presents. Just ditch it!
    -Seriv
  • by BigDish (636009) on Tuesday October 28 2003, @10:28PM (#7335139)
    Reading the article, it seems to me like the third exemption makes mod chips for video game consoles legal. It specifically states that it covers current (non-obsolete media) and allows for the circumvention of copy protection when a copy can be made, but not used, without circumventing copy protection. The same exemption also specifically mentions video games.
    Also, I could see possibly some help for DeCSS-specifically the section of I believe the first exemption relating to the restriction of fair use.
  • Art (Score:1)

    by apachetoolbox (456499) on Tuesday October 28 2003, @10:29PM (#7335148)
    (http://www.valleytechnologiesllc.com/)
    "circumvention of a technological measure which effectively controls access to a work."

    Code == art right? :)

  • Rule 4 (Score:4, Interesting)

    by spinkham (56603) on Tuesday October 28 2003, @10:29PM (#7335153)
    Rule 4 seems to say that if you can't get a copy of an ebook that a screen reader can read (basically plain text or html) then you're allowed to make a program to get said plain text. It doesn't specify that you are blind to be able to use this exception... Doesn't this allow you to do basically anything you would want with your ebook, just phrased in a way no one can argue with it?
    • Re:Rule 4 by Col. Klink (retired) (Score:2) Tuesday October 28 2003, @10:49PM
      • Re:Rule 4 by pruss (Score:1) Wednesday October 29 2003, @09:37PM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • PR Tactic (Score:3, Insightful)

    by coolmacdude (640605) on Tuesday October 28 2003, @10:30PM (#7335159)
    (http://slashdot.org/~coolmacdude | Last Journal: Sunday March 23 2003, @12:22PM)
    I see this as a ploy to respond to those who have been screaming to get this horrible law overthrown for several years. To the casual person who doesn't know what a horrible piece of legislation the DMCA is, this could look like some kind of compromise possibly giving the law more credibility. If the LOC projects the impression that they want to work with opponents of the law and make it "better" while avoiding further legal action, maybe they hope that will give the law a better reputation with the public. In reality it is a realization that the DMCA's days are numbered and a pathetic attempt to appease the courts to keep it in place.
    • so Un-American. by twitter (Score:2) Wednesday October 29 2003, @12:56AM
    • Re:PR Tactic by Reziac (Score:2) Wednesday October 29 2003, @01:19AM
  • by use_compress (627082) on Tuesday October 28 2003, @10:31PM (#7335164)
    (Last Journal: Thursday February 26 2004, @12:47AM)
    leaves consumers unable to access their own property

    Legally, the physical media is the property of the consumer. The consumer only owns a limited access to the information stored on the media. This law does not affect the consumers access to their own property, but it does affect thier access to other people's property.
  • by obsidianpreacher (316585) on Tuesday October 28 2003, @10:32PM (#7335171)
    realize that this is the first of many baby-steps towards getting this POS out of the current system of laws in the US.

    I'll say it again ... whether you agree that this is a "Good Thing(tm)" ... SOME PROGRESS HAS BEEN MADE ... granted, it's not very MUCH of progress, but it's some.
  • Your Right in 2030 (Score:5, Funny)

    by jsse (254124) on Tuesday October 28 2003, @10:37PM (#7335200)
    (http://slashdot.org/ | Last Journal: Thursday October 10 2002, @04:09AM)
    It is 3Q 2030.

    You're arguing with your wife again. It seems she's missed her spending quota again this quarter. A proud patriot, you have no problem spending 85% and sometimes 90% of your income on consumer goods, yet she can't manage to spend even close to the 75% required by law. It's that foreign mentality, you suppose--that's what happens when you are educated overseas and without the benefit of a corporate sponsor. You have to remind her that if the Internal Consumer's Service (ICS) catches her, she'll be doing time in Philip Morris(TM) Prison like her uncle.

    Oh well, hopefully a night at the town's AOL-Time-Warner-Clear-Channel-Blockbuster(TM) Authorized Media Distribution Center will smooth things over with her. That reminds you--you need to have your eye- and ear-implants inspected for this quarter again, otherwise you won't even be allowed in tonight.

    You haven't attended church services for a while. Although your wife is a devout follower of God's Customers(TM) and shops in the Church Store at LEAST five tiems a quarter, you're not yet convinced that converting from Consumers For Jesus(TM) was that sound an investment.

    Your son Rick has just graduated from the local McDonalds(TM) High School. You want him to go to Pepsi(TM) University like his sister, but he wants to go to Coke(TM) College. Not that it matters--the permits you get at either school are the same. Although he really wanted to attend Stanford(TM), his corporate sponsors rejected that proposal, based on what it might do to his credit rating.

    Your youngest daughter just graduated Pepsi(TM) U. It was expensive, but she is all set now, having received a Creative Thought Permit and a Entrepreneurship License. On top of that she's accepted a job at Fortune 10 corporation. Of course almost everyone works for a Fortune 10 nowadays, there being only thirty-some corporations left. It's too bad she had to sign all those NDA's though--you'd really like to be allowed to know where she would be living and how to get in touch with her. Ahh well, it's the price you pay for our corporate security.

    Your older daughter, after twenty quarters of employment, was finally permitted to tell you that she is working in middle-management at AT&T. Of course, every job in the United Corporations of America is middle-management. The cheaper--skilled--labor is all outsourced to Those Other Countries, whatever they are called. In ten more quarters, assuming her credit rating remains good and she has attained Shareholder status, she'll be allowed to talk face-to-face (no encrypted channel) with us again!

    Apparently, her five year old daughter has been grounded again, this time for racking up a $6000 fine--singing "Happy Birthday(TM)" at a party without a Media Distribution License. She really needs to be taught a lesson--that as a patriotic Consumer of the UCA, she needs to respect the rights of Shareholders and property owners. What a dangerous thoughts she has! She thinks she should be allowed to say whatever she pleases, no matter what it does to someone else's portfolio! No one can get it through to her that terrorist ideas like that will land her in one of those "special" schools--and she'd be subjected to a lower quarterly limit on all her credit cards.

    Fax from your wife--she'll be late tonight. Corporate HQ has re-instated fourteen-hour work days until the end of this quarter. It's too bad she's not allowed to quit her job--you could get her a pretty sweet management position any time in your department at Microsoft.

    Orignal post [slashdot.org] by Accord MT [slashdot.org].
  • God Bless our Goverment and the DMCA ;-)
  • Read aloud (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Col. Klink (retired) (11632) on Tuesday October 28 2003, @10:46PM (#7335242)
    ...when
    all [emph. added] existing ebook editions of the work (including digital text editions made available by authorized entities) contain access controls that prevent the enabling of the ebook's read-aloud function...

    So, if they make an ebook available for $5 without read-aloud, but make a special edition available for $200,000, this exemption does not apply.

    In fact, the exemption says nothing of the availability of a read-aloud edition. If a publisher were to create one single edition and sell the only license to his nephew, then it will no longer be the case that "all" existing ebook editions have read-aloud disabled and you would not be able to circumvent the access controls. Even though no read-aloud version is available to you, one does exist so you are SOL.

    • Re:Read aloud by Reziac (Score:2) Wednesday October 29 2003, @01:24AM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • Awwwww, too bad... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by pair-a-noyd (594371) on Tuesday October 28 2003, @10:50PM (#7335256)
    So I can't watch DVD's in my Mandrake box? Or in my Xbox Media Center [xboxmediacenter.com] (should I decide to build one)

    Oh my! What should I do about all these awful copies of DeCSS all over the Internet?

    Um, so sorry, but no one is going to tell me what I can or can not do with property that I posess. It's mine, I paid for it, I traded CASH for property. I buy property, I don't license it. Licenses are invalid and un-enforceable anyway, just ask SCO. I'll take any and everything apart I own and study it and tell people about it as I see fit.

    I always have and I always will.
    When I was 5 years old a kid game me a 9 transistor pocket radio circa 1966 that was broken. I fixed it by taking other radios apart and seeing how they were put together.

    This DMCA is bullshit designed to keep the elite few at the top in total control.
    It stiffles innovation and creativity.
    A hell of a lot of inventions were the spawn of someone trying to improve upon an existing design. You stop people from doing that and you are killing progress.

    DMCA is a draconian and oppressive tool that keeps the rich, rich and the dumb, dumb.

    It's all about the almighty dollar. Greed makes the world go around..

  • Dongles (Score:2)

    by quantum bit (225091) on Tuesday October 28 2003, @11:02PM (#7335316)
    (Last Journal: Thursday April 28 2005, @06:02PM)
    (2) Computer programs protected by dongles that prevent access due to malfunction or damage and which are obsolete.

    They should have extended this to ALL programs protected by dongles -- as long as you have a valid license -- simply on the basis that dongles suck.
  • skipping commercials (Score:1, Funny)

    by AcidSt0rm (3045) on Tuesday October 28 2003, @11:04PM (#7335329)
    (http://realities.cjb.net/)
    why is it that everyone seems to think that its legal to skip commercials.. i think you need to do a bit more research into the fair use laws and about the trials that created them.. in actuality, the fast forward button is illegal according to the goal of those cases :)

  • by KrispyKringle (672903) on Tuesday October 28 2003, @11:25PM (#7335408)
    I'm a little surprised there isn't anything there that applies to the Diebold documents [radioactivechicken.org]. Granted, personal rights take a back seat to commercial interests in the great US of A, but I still think there oughta be some sort of exception for political speech.

    But maybe I'm just a tad touchy because I just decided to mirror the documents. And I don't want to be sued.

    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • Obsolete systems? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by YrWrstNtmr (564987) on Tuesday October 28 2003, @11:29PM (#7335417)
    (3)... A format shall be considered obsolete if the machine or system necessary to render perceptible a work stored in that format is no longer manufactured or is no longer reasonably available in the commercial marketplace.

    As eBay has many Atari 2600, Colecovision, Intellivision, etc. systems listed, is anything really *not available*?

    Similarly, is a program that was introduced on 5 1/4" floppies, and then taken off the market, considered a "format no longer manufactured"?
  • by abolith (204863) on Tuesday October 28 2003, @11:45PM (#7335507)
    (http://slashdot.org/)
    those who make the laws are SO WAY OUT OF FUCKING TOUCH with the real world that things are only going to get much, much worse. I also thik that we (Again I am refering to the U.S.) will see a revolution of one sort or another against our very own lawmakers and "leaders" were we will take back what is ours. It may very well be bloodless, but we will see one.

    *Sigh* It was a nice thought though wasn't it?

  • Did anyone notice...? (Score:3, Redundant)

    by mcubed (556032) on Wednesday October 29 2003, @12:06AM (#7335602)
    (http://slashdot.org/)
    From the full text of the ruling (.pdf, unfortunately):
    Several commenters sought an exemption for works that are either public domain, open source or "open access," but to which access controls are applied. The commenters addressing open source and open access works provided absolutely no information in support of their requests. Aside from a proposal relating to the public domain material on DVDs, their was a paucity of information relating to other public domain works.
    These commenters have overlooked that if a work that is entirely in the public domain is protected by an access control measure, the prohibition on circumvention will not be applicable. Therefore, no exemption is needed.

    Ok, so if you have a DVD that consists entirely of material that is in the public domain, it is legal for you to use DeCSS to access that material, yes? Am I reading this incorrectly?: "the prohibition on circumvention will not be applicable." So how can it be illegal to post DeCSS to a website, if the code can be used for legitimate purposes? The premise of the MPAA's case against 2600 was that DeCSS violated the DMCA by providing an illegal circumvention technique. But if this circumvention is only illegal when misused by the end-user, isn't DeCSS more akin to the FastTrack network -- or, for that matter, to VCRs, MP3 players, Xerox machines, etc.

    In other words, if there are instances in which the prohibition on circumventing CSS is not applicable, then telling someone else how to circumvent CSS should not be illegal, yes? What am I not getting here?

    Michael

  • Hmmm (Score:1)

    by Simple-Simmian (710342) on Wednesday October 29 2003, @12:38AM (#7335702)
    (Last Journal: Saturday August 06 2005, @12:21AM)
    Like so I am going to keep breaking the law to watch my DVDs mmmmm'ok Mr Libraian persons so like bite me.
  • It's interesting that you can circumvent old copy protections with impunity due to the list's entry on obsolete technologies. I'd assume DVD's would fall into that catagory soon after the "Next Big Thing" comes out.

    Maybe a step towards getting copyrights knocked back down to 20 years? Seems like all personal computing technologies are obsoleted in 10 years or less these days.

  • Vote Dammit! (Score:1)

    by epcraig (102626) on Wednesday October 29 2003, @12:48AM (#7335735)
    Next election, remeber to vote against any legislator who voted for or favors the DMCA.
  • The Librarian (Score:2, Funny)

    by Winter (87716) on Wednesday October 29 2003, @01:01AM (#7335779)
    When I read 'Librarian', I go a mental picture of an orangutan sitting at a desk , eating bananas and going 'Ook?'
  • by Spazmania (174582) on Wednesday October 29 2003, @07:16AM (#7336594)
    (http://bill.herrin.us/)
    (4) Literary works distributed in ebook format when all existing ebook editions of the work (including digital text editions made available by authorized entities) contain access controls that prevent the enabling of the ebook's read-aloud function and that prevent the enabling of screen readers to render the text into a specialized format.

    Doesn't this mean that clit is now legal where the ebook isn't available in another format?
  • Kudos to Paramount (Score:2)

    by sharkey (16670) on Wednesday October 29 2003, @08:34AM (#7336890)
    skipping commercials on DVDs

    I bought the Indiana Jones box set last week. Got home, popped in Raiders, and the first thing that shows up is the menu, with PLAY right there, ready to go. No legal threats, no unskippable commercials, just the available options on the disc.

    Thank you, Paramount!

  • by analog_line (465182) on Wednesday October 29 2003, @09:13AM (#7337106)
    ...just don't buy it. I mean seriously, can I get a witness from someone, anyone here?

    If you can't handle the fact that you're not legally allowd to fiddle with a DVD to get around commericials that have been inserted in there, why are you buying DVDs? Yes, it's stupid, and it should be fought hard, but why are you people buying DVDs in the meantime?

    I don't buy music on CDs because I don't care for the copy protection regime, and I'd rather not have some idiot corporate lawyer looking for a test case try to eat my life. It's easier, and they can't legally touch me for not buying stuff. I couldn't care less if anyone calls me unpatriotic. Whooptie doo. I can call them the reincarnation of Adolph Hitler, but just because it's personally insulting doesn't make it true, or worth more than the lungfull of air it took to spew it. I truly do not understand why people allow themselves to be railroaded into things, if they hate those things so much.

    Just don't buy DVDs or CDs. Watch ones your simple minded sheep friends have at their house. Stops you from watching the idiot box all day, at worst. There is stuff that is released in a format that conforms to your wishes. Find it, use it, and patronize the people who produce it, and punish the big guys by, horror of horrors, NOT SPENDING YOUR MONEY ON THEIR STUFF.
  • Legal mame Roms! (Score:2)

    by haplo21112 (184264) <haplo@nOspAm.epithna.com> on Wednesday October 29 2003, @09:19AM (#7337141)
    (http://www.epithna.com/)
    Doesn't this pretty much legalize the distrobution of ROM's for use with MAME! Thats the way It reads to me.
    "(3) Computer programs and video games distributed in formats that have become obsolete and which require the original media or hardware as a condition of access. A format shall be considered obsolete if the machine or system necessary to render perceptible a work stored in that format is no longer manufactured or is no longer reasonably available in the commercial marketplace."
  • by jonwil (467024) on Wednesday October 29 2003, @10:25AM (#7337857)
    Of course normal copyright would still apply.

    1.exemption that makes it not a DMCA violation to defeat copy protection and copy music, movies, TV shows and other audio-visual content from media for which players are no-longer manufactured commercially onto current formats.

    2.exemption that makes it not a DMCA violation to copy public domain content or content for which you have secured the permission of the copyright holder to make copies.

    3.exemption that makes it legal to figure out how a copy protection method works to enable your piece of hardware or software to sucessfully play copy-protected works on the condition that the software only allow the playing of original works and not copies.

    This would allow e.g. WINE to crack copy protection so that origonal copy-protected games would run (but only if games that arent origonals are prevented from running)

    4.an exemption that makes it legal to violate the DMCA if the "protected" content is part of either:
    1.a consumable device featuring hardware
    or 2.a device taking consumable devices that feature hardware
    and is used to prevent 3rd party companies from cloning the consumable device.

    The definition of "consumable device featuring hardware" as it applies above is any device that:
    A.gets used up/worn out as part of the normal operation of the device and requires regular replacement
    and B.consists of something other than "media" (that way, the exemption wouldnt apply to e.g. disposable DVDs)

    Media is defined as anything where the sole purpose is to store information, i.e. Floppy Disks, Hard Disks, Optical Media, Casette Tapes, Rom Chips, Flash Memory and so on.

    and 5.a blanket exemption that makes it legal to defeat copy protection where that protection prevents a disabled person (e.g. deaf, blind) from using that copy protected work (would apply to software, movies, music, books etc).
    This only applies if a usable copy of the work is not commercially available.

    The rationale behind each of these is:
    1 would make it legal to defeat copy protection for audio-visual media for which players no-longer exist

    2 would make it legal to defeat copy protection for content (software, books, music, movies or whatever) which is in the public domain or for which you have permission from the copyright holder to make copies.

    This also means that if you have used a program to create a work that contains copy protection (e.g. the new M$ Office 2003 with DRM features), you can legally crack copy protection on this work since you own the copyright on the work.

    3 would make it legal to make a piece of software or hardware that is capable of playing copy protected works as long as it can only play origonal works and doesnt provide a means to defeat the protection. (for example, XBOX emulator that can only play origonal XBOX disks wouldnt be illegal or e.g. WINE implementing support for origonal valid copy-protected games wouldnt be illegal as long as an origonal CD is required to play and it doesnt defeat the protection)

    4 would make it legal for 3rd parties to clone things like printer cartridges or car parts even where copy protection is used to prevent this (e.g. in the lexmark printer cartridge chips case)

    5 would make it legal to defeat copy protection to enable disabled people to access content they wouldnt otherwise be able to access
  • MAME, et al. (Score:3)

    by malachid69 (306291) on Wednesday October 29 2003, @11:12AM (#7338282)
    (http://eoti.org/~malachi)
    (3) Computer programs and video games distributed in formats that have become obsolete and which require the original media or hardware as a condition of access. A format shall be considered obsolete if the machine or system necessary to render perceptible a work stored in that format is no longer manufactured or is no longer reasonably available in the commercial marketplace.

    So, I guess that will make MAME, et al, very happy. From the way I read this section, things like Sega Genesis or TRS-80 games are not protected?

    --Malachi

    • Re:MAME, et al. by SuiteSisterMary (Score:2) Wednesday October 29 2003, @01:58PM
  • by mrscott (548097) on Tuesday October 28 2003, @10:09PM (#7335036)
    I want to skip the commercials on the DVDs that I buy. I want to watch a DVD that I purchased in Europe. I want to rip the DVD to my PC for my OWN viewing pleasure. Why shouldn't I be able to do that easily?
    [ Parent ]
  • You miss the point completely.

    If I buy a DVD of a movie, I want to be able to skip there damn promos. I don't want the disc or player telling me that I HAVE TO WATCH THEIR ADVERTISEMENTS.

    It's asine. It would, according to the DVD spec, be possible for them to produce a movie which would not allow you to pause, fast forward, or rewind.

    What if I want to get up and take a piss?

    If I transfer that DVD to something like VHS, so that I can pause it to get up and take a piss, I AM A CRIMINAL. This has nothing to do with stopping piracy.

    [ Parent ]
  • Re:Woohoo! (Score:2)

    by Masami Eiri (617825) <brain.wav@gma[ ]com ['il.' in gap]> on Tuesday October 28 2003, @10:11PM (#7335047)
    (Last Journal: Friday March 11 2005, @02:01PM)
    Except I doubt your DVD is protected by a dongle.
    [ Parent ]
    • Re:Woohoo! by Reziac (Score:2) Wednesday October 29 2003, @01:37AM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • by seanadams.com (463190) * on Tuesday October 28 2003, @10:15PM (#7335067)
    (http://www.seanadams.com/)
    We're not talking about the rights to the movie. We're talking about ownership of the EQUIPMENT and SOFTWARE to play it. If I want to go buy a DVD from Amazon.com or buy DRM-crippled music from the iTunes Music Store, then I'm free to do so. If I want to buy a DVD player from Fry's or an iPod from Apple, then I'm free to do so.

    Suppose I wanted to *lease* a DVD player (like a car) - then the lessor can impose restriction whatever restrictions he wants on me modifying HIS property, and I don't think anyone would find this unreasonable.

    However, if I want to modify my DVD player THAT I PAID FOR, FAIR AND SQURE, so I can skip commercials, then I should be free to do so. And if I want to write a program that can play the stuff on the DVD disc THAT I PAID FOR, then I should be free to do so.

    We are not asking for NEW allowances. The old copyright law was fine. It's the DMCA that has to go.
    [ Parent ]
  • by BJH (11355) on Tuesday October 28 2003, @10:19PM (#7335082)
    Y'know, I want to agree with you, I really do, but I just can't bring myself to do it.

    Copyright was not originally intended to provide a way to allow creators to restrict how their works are distributed - that was a deliberate side-effect of the actual purpose of copyright at the time, which was to promote further creation. In other words, "if you keep on writing books/painting pictures/whatever, you get to say what people can do with that - but only for a little while, because any creative work eventually should become the property of the people".

    Now, before somebody starts foaming at the mouth about how that was then, this is now, and books, movies, music, etc. are big business and thus more control should be given to those who create them - I do agree with you, to a point. If I wrote a book and the next day had it spread around the world without my consent, I'd be pissed.

    The problem is, we're reaching a point in history where, for the very first time, it costs virtually nothing to store, replicate and distribute creative works. In the old days, a book had to be laboriously handcopied, or re-typeset, or be run through a photocopier a page at a time. Now, any book on the planet fits into my USB keyring a thousandfold.

    At this point in time, don't we want to rethink what the meaning of restrictions on copying are in a world where there is no physical basis for those restrictions?

    Isn't the whole point of creation to enrich your life and the lives of those around you? (I exclude Britney Spears songs, "books" by anyone with the first name Danielle, and movies that feature the incumbent Governor of California from this.) Surely we can figure out a way that someone who creates something worthwhile can make a reasonable living doing so, without forbidding everybody else to pass such a creation to other people without restriction?
    [ Parent ]
  • by Dun Malg (230075) on Tuesday October 28 2003, @10:23PM (#7335106)
    (https://addons.mozil...&application=firefox)
    Sorry - if a consumer wants to own a movie s/he should hire a film crew, construct the sets, pay big names outrageous fortunes, write the scripts, pay for post production, etc. After you spend at least a million (and that's LOW budget) THEN you own a movie, can make copies and give it away, rip it, edit it, whatever you want.

    The consumer owns the disc. The copyright holder, once it's sold, does not. Copyright doesn't grant ownership of the movie, it only grants exclusive right to copy. Have you not read any of the explainations posted on /. describing the difference between property and copyright? I'd go over it again, but no one ever seems to listen...

    [ Parent ]
  • by DAldredge (2353) <SlashdotEmail@GMail.Com> on Tuesday October 28 2003, @11:13PM (#7335366)
    (Last Journal: Sunday October 14, @10:49PM)
    If they want to clam we don't own it, they why do they say "OWN IT NOW ON DVD" in most, if not all, of their ads?
    [ Parent ]
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • by Narchie Troll (581273) on Wednesday October 29 2003, @12:52AM (#7335747)
    Hey, do you have some sort of mental disorder? Tourette's or something? Because you keep on shouting "DURRR."

    Of course, you could be using the classic fifth-grader tactic of accusing those who disagree with you of being retarded, but that would require you to either be a pre-teen or an imbecile. And I'm sure you're neither, right?
    [ Parent ]
  • 17 replies beneath your current threshold.