Charter Cable Sues To Quash RIAA Subpoenas

mattOzan writes "Charter Communications, the third largest cable provider in the United States, has filed a motion in St. Louis, Missouri, to block the RIAA's requests for the identities of about 150 Charter customers in the St. Louis area. In the over 1100 subpoenas that have been issued so far, Charter claims they are the only major ISP that has not provided the RIAA with 'a single datum of information.'"

Subpoenas?

Wait, what am I missing? I A Obviously N A L, but I didn't think a private company could issue a subpoena. Is there something that I'm missing? And hoorah to Charter Communications for fighting this rediculousness.

Re:Subpoenas?

Anyone can subpoena anyone else to get information to use in a lawsuit. The DMCA makes it easier to do so in the case of alleged copyright infringement, but the right to issue subpoenas is avaialble to any person or corporation.

Re:Subpoenas?

The subpoenas are issued by a Federal district court at the request of the RIAA. The RIAA, just like any other copyright holder, can submit a sworn statement alleging a copyright violation to the court clerk and have a subpoena issued.

The party being subpoenaed (here Charter Communications) has the right to challenge the subpoena in court.

Re:Subpoenas?

can submit a sworn statement alleging a copyright violation to the court clerk and have a subpoena issued

I'd like to clarify a bit here, for other readers.

They must submit a sworn statment that they have a copyright on something - anything (or that they represent a copyright holder). This sworn statement is pretty meaningless, I can file such a statement that I am the copyright holder of this post.

Aside from that sworn statement, the paperwork must make a claim that the target of the subpeona commited infingement. Not only is this NOT a sworn statement, it can be an entirely baseless statement.

This paperwork is then given to the court clerk, NOT a judge. The court clerk's only job is to make sure you didn't botch the paperwork. He is then required to give rubberstamp approval. The involvement of the court is pure formality, in effect the DMCA grants copyright holders the power to issue subeonas. The process lacks any actual judical review.

The DMCA is an insanely lopsided peice of legislation, written by the copyright lobby for the copyright lobby. This "expedited subpeona process" granted to copyright holders is just one of many abuses written into the law. God forbid copyright holders should be forced to go through the NORMAL and LEGITIMATE subpeona process, just like EVERYONE ELSE.

-

Capitalism

One of the nice things about capitalism is that despite the fact that some companies in our country can "buy" legislature, when it starts hurting other's bottom lines, as in this case (bad for the cable company), things start to change.

Perhaps those lawyers are good for something after all.

Even if the RIAA looses the fast-track subpoena

Even if the RIAA looses the fast-track subpoena, they'll keep suing -- they'll just switch to John Doe lawsuits...

Re:Even if the RIAA looses the fast-track subpoena

Even if the RIAA looses the fast-track subpoena, they'll keep suing -- they'll just switch to John Doe lawsuits...

But that will cost them money.. and the more it costs them to keep up this campaign of lawsuits, the less likely they'll collect enough in settlements to draw a profit from it; and if it's not profitable, they won't do it.

Re:Even if the RIAA looses the fast-track subpoena

That never stopped the xbox. :)

At the risk of being Offtopic... I know it's fashionable to bash MS and their products, but this statement is simply silly. What you're referring to MS doing with the X-Box is called a "loss leader." They make the platform at a loss with the hopes of making up the dividends on the individual games. All the major consoles do the exact same thing as do manufacturers of printers (ever wonder why you can get a printer for 80 bucks, but the carts are 15-30 bucks each, not to mention paper?), and several other industries.

Comparing this to the RIAA subpoenas and lawsuits is just silly, and is pretty much karma-whoring via MS bashing.

Re:Even if the RIAA looses the fast-track subpoena

Hardly. They are losing money hand over fist on these subpoenas and pseudo-lawsuits. Sure, they made a couple grand off of that 12 year old but that hardly pays for a few hours of attorney time. This is about intimidation, no more and no less. Yes, it is about money, but there is no intent to profit from these "lawsuits". They want people to stop sharing music via peer-to-peer in the mistaken belief that it will return their member companies to profitability. They're misguided to the point of being dangerously irrational, but there's not a lot we can do about that.

Go Charter

their prices may suck, they may be needing network upgrades, but go Charter!

it's already getting slow

Charter cable sues to block music inquiry

10/03/2003

Charter Communications Inc. filed a suit on Friday seeking to block the recording industry from obtaining the identities of Charter customers who allegedly shared copyrighted music over the Internet.

Charter filed papers in U.S. District Court in St. Louis in a bid to quash subpoenas that the Recording Industry Association of America issued seeking the identities of about 150 Charter customers.

"We are the only major cable company that has not as yet provided the RIAA a single datum of information," said Tom Hearity, vice president and associate general counsel for Charter, which is based in Town and Country.

The recording association has subpoenaed information as part of its effort to crack down on illegal distribution of copyrighted music. So far, the group has filed suits against 261 people, none of them in the St. Louis area.

Charter's move Friday suggested that Charter had undergone a change of heart on the issue. On Sept. 23, after the association issued its first subpoenas to Charter in St. Louis, a Charter spokesman said the company would "fully cooperate."

However, Hearity said that statement meant only that the company would "cooperate in the sense that we're going to operate within the legal process."

Representatives at the association's headquarters in Washington could not be reached.

New Buisness Plan

1. Become ISP
2. When asked by the RIAA to give out names, purposely give out names of people who do not use the internet much, and definetly don't use Kazza
3. Sue RIAA, claiming damages.
4. Profit!!!

Re:New Buisness Plan

Wow, and AC comment, about Profit, that is actually funny.

Oh hold on a sec, the RIAA just called, something about stopping the lawsuits and pairing up with MS to support Linux.

The good fight.

As Martha [marthastewart.com] would say, this is a damned Good Thing(C).

It is interesting to note that Paul Allen [corporate-ir.net] is the chairman of Charter, and has been since he bought the company in 1998. Perhaps this will give fuel to the entertainment industry to say that technology, technology companies, and anybody tainted by either, are evil? (See here [macworld.com].)

Nonetheless, it is important that formidable companies stand up to the entertainment industry and its henchmen. Charter and Verizon (see story [com.com]) are two folks who you'd want on your side.

justen

Claim

Charter claims they are the only major ISP that has not provided the RIAA with 'a single datum of information.

I could've sworn Soutwestern Bell hadn't furnished any of its customers' information at the RIAA's request either...

The fight continues.

Its good to see another company steeping up and trying to protect people from the RIAA. The more companies that do this the better, this issue is getting a lot of attention and with more companies fighting back the attention will continue to grow. No matter what, when this is in the news the RIAA continues to look terrible and creates more and more enemies. Many of the people that they are suiing are parents of children who have done the downloading and this really upsets and hits home for many American households. When this started off it was just mainly people interested in legal matters and people that are interested in computers that were following the story. As it continues it has really started to affect the average person as the lawsuits are so prevelant and directed at anyone. There are also many political groups now who are trying to step in and fight the RIAA. In my opinion all the companies fighting the RIAA and all the negative press against them is another step forward. I think that the current buisness model that they are using is going to have to change or those that can change it will step up and do so. Many people around the world have been brought up in an era of downloading music and will never purchase there cds at there current prices again. What happens to the RIAA if they stop the downloaders(which they never will) and no one goes back to purchasing there cds.
Making this many enemies is never a good thing for an association that relies on purchases from the people that they have upset.

Only 2 subpoenaes to AOL ??

AOL is this huge turd of an ISP and they get only 2 subpoenas, when the other ISPs get 100s?

Either all AOL users are very nice honest people (not bloody likely), or they are all (minus 2) so inane they only know the "you've got mail!" part of the internet, or somebody at the RIAA is on AOL's payroll ...

Re:Only 2 subpoenaes to AOL ??

I personally know several AOL users (really!!!) and not one of them would capable if installing, configuring and using a P2P application. So, if the balance if AOL users are equally challenged from a computer literacy perspective, it is entirely possible the AOL just doesn't have a large number of copyright infringers.

Conversely, it could just be possible that the average AOL subscriber is so computer-savvy that he actually knows how to disable uploading in his P2P software, or at least knows to point his upload folder to an empty directory.

Well ... maybe not.

Re:Only 2 subpoenaes to AOL ??

Everything I've read so far leads me to believe that the RIAA is tracking people by IP address. This is more or less impossible if the person you're tracking is coming in from AOL, because everyone accesses the Internet proper through an AOL firewall/proxy, so the person you're tracking has the same IP address as all 3,743 other AOL users in Des Moines, Iowa.

What I'm wondering is, how they managed to find two people to subpoena from AOL.

users of netzero and MSN not sued

None of Netzero or MSN users have been sued by RIAA according to the link provided in the article. (1100 subpoenas) [berkeley.edu] I wonder why?

Bog them down with litigation

They stole source code from KaZaa to make the lite version, they violated the license agreement to abuse network resources. They should be subject to the DMCA sword they weild as they have abused and stole intellectual property.

I hope Charter keeps them tied up in litigation while other Software distributors who have had THEIR networks hacked and violated by them levy lawsuits down upon RIAA. The only thing RIAA needs to know is how much love is NOT there for them and chances are the majority will fall in line with any who oppose them.

Think the "Music" industry is hurting how? Boycott all CD/DVD/Tape purchases for a full year and listen to the good ol radio...see how much money they have to harass people when they break the laws they weild themselves. (Just go to the concerts, thats where muscians make their money anyway.)

Re:Bog them down with litigation

Boycott all CD/DVD/Tape purchases for a full year and listen to the good ol radio

Ummm... if you really want to boycott the music industry... you'll have to stop listening to the radio too. They do get paid each time a song is played.

statistics of riaa

the riaa claims to have lost millions of dollars. The yearend reports can be found here in pdf format:
http://www.riaa.com/news/marketingdata/yearend.asp

note that the sale of cd's has dropped less than 10%, and that the sale of DVD video and DVD audio has risen far more. The riaa doesn't seem to talk about that much, does it?

Re:statistics of riaa

>the sale of DVD video and DVD audio has risen far more

Yep they ignore a few blinding facts. You get a lot more for your cash with a DVD and the prices match the age of the thing they are selling. Why can I buy a DVD of a 30-year old feature film like 'Bullet' (and enjoy it) for 5 GBP but I still have to pay around 20 GBP for a CD of 'Dark Side of the Moon'. I would like a CD copy of that album but not at that price!

Props to charter

All i can say is that while their tech support/service (general customer care) is more then lacking, the fact that they lifted the cap of all cable subscribers for a year and half (up here in MI, btw, were getting 2mbit dl's for basic price), and are now taking this stance against totalitarism , has made me a loyal customer for (hopefully) years to come. Keep it up guys!

Very Pragmatic of Charter

The RIAA suing parents and accounthoulders could kill isp business. Nobodys going to want always on broadband in their home if it makes them a target of financialy devastating lawsuit. So for Charter, Verizon, Etc, they can either fight now or watch the RIAA's scare campaign cause their customers to pull internet access.

Imagine parents hear that one of their neighbors got sued by the RIAA because their kid was misusing the internet. They most likely have a vague idea of what the net really is and even less idea what their kid does with it. The likely response pull the plug. The net is just not that big a deal in their lives.

Cooperate ... within the legal process ...

On Sept. 23, after the association issued its first subpoenas to Charter in St. Louis, a Charter spokesman said the company would "fully cooperate." However, Hearity said that statement meant only that the company would "cooperate in the sense that we're going to operate within the legal process."

This is a very insightful comment because it reflects that Charter top-brass probably understands that the legal system is an essentially incomplete system.

If they are smart enough, and can raise the higher-level-than-legal-level issue of social good using the statutes provided by the legal system, they might be able to create an assertion in the legal system that talks about its own unprovability in court, in which case the court might - not fully comprehending the incompleteness of formal systems - look for the validity of the assertion in the social system, wherein they will discover that it is ridiculous for the RIAA to claim no legitimate uses of the P2P.

And Equally ridiculous for the RIAA to claim that by supressing all economic activity not under its control it has somehow raised the total level of economic activity. Reflecting upon how patently untrue the RIAA has been so far, may cause the courts to self-reflect upon their own behavior, in which case there may be a spark of intelligence ... upon which my sig will come alive. As my current sig is Die Die Metallica, Die Die RIAA, Die Die My Darling , its coming alive will cause the death of the RIAA, and Charter may never have to prove the assertions it made fully understanding the unprovability of its assertions ....

Sorry, if have been caught up in some strange loops. I was just rereading Hofstadter's GEB and could not help but ...

hooray for charter!

Not only are they resisting the jackboots, they're also one of the few modern non-scientific entities I've heard using "datum." So many people today think that "data" is singular/plural. It's infuriating- one wonders if schools even teach grammar any more.

But I really need to know...

Charter's move Friday suggested that Charter had undergone a change of heart on the issue. On Sept. 23, after the association issued its first subpoenas to Charter in St. Louis, a Charter spokesman said the company would "fully cooperate."

just how much of this benevolent change in heart was motivated by the competing DSL providers standing up for their customers [slashdot.org]. They were busy licking RIAA's feet while the telcos were saying this [slashdot.org], this [slashdot.org] and this [slashdot.org].

Who's Better?

The RIAA or cable monopolies? It's the battle of the state-supported corporate mind controllers!

Matt

hysterical: "operate within the legal process"

Article says:
Charter's move Friday suggested that Charter had undergone a change of heart on the issue. On
Sept. 23, after the association issued its first subpoenas to Charter in St. Louis, a Charter
spokesman said the company would "fully cooperate." However, Hearity said that
statement meant only that the company would "cooperate in the sense that we're going to
operate within the legal process."

As opposed to not operating within the legal process? Of *course* they're going to operate within the legal process. I guess their PR person couldn't bear to admit that at first they folded faster than superman on laundry day. But bless 'em for eventually deciding to have more than a knee-jerk PC reaction, even if it's profit-driven.

Asscroft: I demand that you take immediate steps to prevent terrorists from distributing kiddie porn in the Amazonian rainforest!
MoneyCo: Obviously we'll comply in every way possible.
(examines books, does spreadsheet)
MoneyCo: Hmm, what we meant was, we'd comply by saying something you wanted to hear at the time.

why the excitement?

As much as we may question the RIAA's motives, law is law, and if you deny the RIAA the information of those who violate THE LAW then you may as well deny other, more "legitimate" businesses and corporations rights to what they own. Again, I disagree with the RIAA and the motives they use, but this isn't a chance for vigilante ISP's to deny the RIAA what it is entitled to under law.

Something else that's bothering me

One of my neighbors has been fooling enough to set up a wireless router with no encryption. If I now run P2P software through his cable connection, can he be sued by the RIAA? Is "gee, I'm stupid enough to leave my cable connection wide open so anybody can use it" and affirmative defense?

Logic Error

Charter....... good?

*head explodes*

How Charter kept RIAA away

Hello and welcome to Charter Communications' legal support department. Your call is very important to us. Please listen to this menu carefully since options have changed. If you are calling about your lawsuit against us because your cable bill is too high, please press 1 now. If you are calling about your lawsuit against us because we double billed you, please press 2 now. If you are calling about your lawsuit against us because we have not paid your program provider fees, please press 3 now. If you are calling about your subpoena to divulge the names and credit card payment records of customers that are sharing music online please press 4 now. If you are calling about our violations of local ....

*** beep *** (pressed 4)

[click] [click] [pause] [click] [click]

Hello and welcome to Charter Communications' copyright enforcement department. Your call is very important to us. Please listen to this menu carefully since options have changed. If you are calling about your neighbor recording premium movies, please press 1 now. If you are calling about our customers that are downloading music on the internet, please press 2 now. If you are ....

*** beep *** (pressed 2)

[pause] [click] [click] [pause]

Hello and welcome to Charter Communications' music piracy department. Your call is very important to us. Please listen to this menu carefully since options have changed. If you are calling about a subpoena you have already sent to us, please have your subpoena registration number handy and press 1 now. If you are calling to register a new subpoena with use, please have the account number of the customer this subpoena refers to handy and press 2 now. If you are calling to obtain a customer account number, please have the name of the customer handy and press 3 now. If you are calling to obtain the name of a customer please have the IP address and time handy, and press 4 now. If you are ....

*** beep *** (pressed 4)

[pause] [click] [pause] [click] [pause]

Hello and welcome to the Charter Communications' online customer identification system. Please have the IP address and time the customer was online handy. If you already have an identification system authorization number, please press 1 now. If you do not already have an identification system authorization number, and wish to register to obtain one, please press 2 now. To repeat this ...

*** beep *** (pressed 2)

[pause] [click]

Hello and welcome to the Charter Communications' online customer identification system user authorization registration system. Please listen to this menu carefully since options have changed. If you are already a Charter Communications home cable customer, please press 1 now. If you are already a Charter Communications business internet customer, please press 2 now. If you are not a Charter Communications customer and would like to sign up for Charter Communications' cable service in your home or business today, please press 3 now. If you are not a Charter Communications customer and do not wish to sign up for cable service at this time, please press 4 now. To repeat ....

*** beep *** (pressed 4)

[click] [click]

Hello and welcome to Charter Communications' business relations department. Your call is very important to us. Please listen to this menu carefully since options have changed. If you are calling about an existing business relation that is satisfactory to you, please press 1 now. If you are calling about an existing business relation that is unsatisfactory to you, please press 2 now. If you are calling to establish a new business relationship, please have your business name and taxpayer identification number handy, and press 3 now. To repeat this ....

*** beep *** (pressed 3)

[pause] [click] [pause] [click] [pause] [click] [pause]

Hello and welcome to Charter Communications' business rel

SBC was fighting first

Charter may be the first cable ISP to fight but SBC has been fighting already as shown:

here [bizjournals.com]
here [sbc.com]
and here [wired.com]

I'm confused...

Didn't people here want the RIAA to leave the P2P apps alone a couple years ago, instead saying they should go after the people violating copyrights? Now that they're doing that you very same people are suggesting that the RIAA be denied the right to protect its IP? Which way do you want it? Would you rather they go after the P2P apps again and possibly get even more restrictive internet legislation passed or they go after the people responsible for violating current copyright laws?

Happy Charter Customer

I am glad to see this. I've been very happy with Charter overall. I use them for both Digital Cable and Internet services. They even recently boosted my downstream speed for free from 768kbps to 2mbps as an apology for any inconveniences (none) that I experience while they upgraded their systems. Thumbs up for Charter.

Charter is only doing it for the $$

Not that I mind them standing up to the RIAA but they realize that SOMEONE is going to have to go back thru all the logs to find out who was using what IP when the "piracy" allegedly happened. Since Charter uses DHCP to keep costs down they are NOT thrilled about having to provide the RIAA anything if Charter has to pay for it. But whatever the reason....YAY

I wonder why...?

So far, the group has filed suits against 261 people, none of them in the St. Louis area.

I wonder why...? [grin]

Is this the same Charter Communications...

...who have so many spammers that they're now in the SpamHaus [spamhaus.org] database, and whose spammers have been joe-jobbing my domain (from numerous charter.com and charter.net connections) for the last month, and whose sysadmins competely ignore my complaints? Just checking...

Providence Provides US Relief!

Dear Folks,

Thank god, there are CEOs with children at the right age to use Napster, Kazaa, ... and justify corporate expenditures for their legal defense.

God bless those children (maybe college kids) for helping US while serving themselves. Every little bit of help in these times of social troubles is important to US.

Okay, yep, it may be a corporate altruistic act ... What'U think?

OldHawk777

Reality is a self-induced hallucination.

Class Action?

Can corps get together to form something alike to a class-action suit?

I mean, granted most of these companies are competing, but in "the enemy of my enemy is a friend," perhaps they could at least agree that the RIAA is mutally bad for business. At the least, they could probably create some 3rd-party organization of which they are all members, pool resources, and fun some lawyers to send the RIAA back where they belong.

Re:If copyright were abolished...

And if murder were legal, there'd be no need for a lot more subpoenas. What's your point?

Re:Is Charter Microsoft?

http://www.chartercom.com/aboutus/ourstory/ourstor y.asp [chartercom.com]

"Years ago, Charter Communications Chairman Paul Allen envisioned a Wired World - a global broadband network that would interconnect every home, facilitating the convergence of television, computers, the Internet and communications.

Today, Paul Allen is Charter's largest shareholder. And with interests in more than 100 other world-class enterprises and investments dedicated to improving the way people live, learn, do business, and experience the world, he and his portfolio companies are creating a Wired World."

Re:datum?

I don't know what all those numbers in your post mean, but I assume it has something to do with what you think the word datum means. You should know that datum is simply the singular form of the word data, which is plural.

Re:Charter Communications?

Doesn't sound like the same Charter I know. Perhaps the problem is being in Wisconsin :P

I've had their service the last *three places I've lived*. Between transfer rates that approached dialup speeds to massive service outages, I was happy when SBC was available in my current apartment.

Charter ALWAYS had an excuse. Bad wiring, bad neighborhood, construction, too many devices on one line, blah blah blah. Well, SBC seems to have no problem getting DSL, which is notorious for being picky, to my house trouble free and 100% reliable. Regardless of whose fault it is, SBC doesn't make excuses (I can't believe I'm actually in favor of the telephone company. I never though this day would come!)

In their defense, my parents have Time Warner cable modem, which has a fair amount of outages as well, which is why I think the problem lies within the technology itself. My sister-in-law and I both have SBC DSL on different sides of the state, and it has been flawless.

Re:Is Charter Microsoft?

Ultimately, Microsoft executives do a pretty good job of making money for their companies. If this hit Paul Allen's radar, he probably just considered resisting handing over information to be a good business move.

Re:Planned Parenthood

Hardly seems offtopic. My point was that they are requesting information way out of their rights. And in the case i mentioned, they were denied the rights to those names, as they should be, and so should RIAA.