Testing Microsoft And The DMCA 395
sproketboy writes "I found a great piece about an MIT student and his XBox hacking over at news.com.
Apparently he can't get his how-to book published do to fears with DMCA. I hope he at least can get it publish in China or Russia where people have some freedoms left. ;)." The student is doctoral candidate Andrew "Bunnie" Huang, the same hacker Microsoft declined to stop last August from presenting a paper on insecurities in the Xbox hardware.
Spelling (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Spelling (Score:4, Insightful)
The US have the highest crime rates in the privileged world, and the highest number of people in prison in the entire world, more so than even China (by absolute numbers -- and China is much larger). The US are a police state ruled by the military-industrial complex. You have a president whose daddy was president, for fuck's sake, the only difference with China is that you pretend to be a democracy -- I won't even comment on your last "democratic" presidential election. Grow up and get a backbone, and stop repeating the same propaganda that you have been indoctrinated with since elementary school, otherwise things will never change. People like you are responsible for the situation the US are in. Ignorant sheep who will defend every idiocy and who will happily believe that their country is "the free world" and the rest are unwashed barbarians ruled by oppressive leaders. Fucking moron.
Re:Spelling (Score:3, Insightful)
I love my country, but I'm frustrated enough to move to Canada. It's just that if I don't fight for
Re:Flaming (Score:3, Insightful)
Give me a break. Just because you RANT it does not mean it is fact.
Here's just a couple of errors you make.
Freedom to assemble? No - try reading the source code: 1st Amendment:
Re:Flaming (Score:3, Insightful)
Of course I am European (even French as a matter of fact) I think your vision of Europe is as far from truth (and please do not take the UK communist party as a reference, or I shall start looking in U
Wait... (Score:5, Insightful)
You could say almost anywhere but USA! DMCA/Patriot/Patriot2 are US laws! not *world* laws!
Re:Wait... (Score:2)
You forget. We ARE the world. (Score:5, Funny)
Re:You forget. We ARE the world. (Score:2, Insightful)
Not trying to troll (at least not much), but as a non-US-citizen I would like to point out an interesting fact;
I can name two nations in the world today that has weapons of mass desctruction, that frequently ignores the UN and supports / has supported / commits acts that are easily defined as terrorism (well, I know of more than two nations, but keep with me). Those two nations are Israel and the United States of America.
Did anyone mention double standards?
Re:You forget. We ARE the world. (Score:2)
What are the terrorist activities that the US supports or commits? I'm not interested in stuff from decades ago, but recently.
As far as double standards go, of course there's a separate standard for the US. When you're the biggest and baddest on the block, you get to make some of the rules. And frankly, if you'd rather have Russia or China as the top dog instead of the US, try picturing what that would be like...
Re:You forget. We ARE the world. (Score:2)
And I don't watch Fox!
Re:You forget. We ARE the world. (Score:2, Insightful)
The justification for the war was the potential use of WMD against the US, which is turning out to be BS. And further to that, There was no iminent threat from Iraq (i.e. they had no possible way to bring direct harm to the US).
Sure they don't target the civilians, but who gave them permission to start accidentially bombing them?
Who gave them the authority to decide who dies? No one.
The Bush administration has an
Re:You forget. We ARE the world. (Score:2)
As to the US acting in their own interests, well, DUH!!! Every nation does this - I think the biggest PR problem the US faces is that people expect it to act like Superman all around the world.
Anyways, I still haven't seen an
Re:You forget. We ARE the world. (Score:2, Funny)
Ya until they realize that there were none to begin with. Then what happens? "Look! we FOUND WMD, hey, what the, I thought I told you guys to remove the 'Made in USA' stickers from those warheads?!"
terrorism is a crock (Score:2)
The citizens of a democracy are legitimate targets for military operations. We (I am an American) decide who our leaders are, our leaders decide how to use the military, and our foreign policy. Our military is an extension of us, we are responsible for the actions of our country, if groups (Al Queda, et al) are mad enough about what we do, to decide to go to wa
Re:You forget. We ARE the world. (Score:2)
Re:You forget. We ARE the world. (Score:2)
or abc [go.com]...
maybe radio free europe [rferl.org]
good enough?
Re:You forget. We ARE the world. (Score:2)
Re:You forget. We ARE the world. (Score:3, Insightful)
I do not think those marines did the wrong thing, I think it was the politicians that put them in a situation where they would have to do that thing, that are wrong.
Re:You forget. We ARE the world. (Score:2)
Re:You forget. We ARE the world. (Score:2)
Now I'm not advocating the American government is all great. Have you read the other postings on Slashdot. Obviously, our system doesn't work, and there is no way to legally impose a different government than the one we have. The only way to change our government is through terrorist a
Re:You forget. We ARE the world. (Score:3, Interesting)
I know you shot at your neighbor a couple weeks ago. You can't deny it because there are no news sources that say you didn't. Why don't you stop repeating lies from conspiracy newspapers with no grounded facts or reality.
The US attack on Iraq is not sanctioned by the UN btw, which makes
Re:You forget. We ARE the world. (Score:2)
Re:You forget. We ARE the world. (Score:3, Informative)
Re:You forget. We ARE the world. (Score:2)
Your analogy between Germany invading Europe and America invading Iraq is not flawed, but your conclusions are (in my opinion).
The only way to legalise any military action not directly triggered by an attack of your opponents is via the United Nations
This is simply not true -- this whole notion of International Law believes that as a nation the US gave up its sovereignty. We did not. Like it or not, the only force that keeps nations sovereign is military force. There is no higher authority to which any
Re:You forget. We ARE the world. (Score:2)
Armchair reactionary......
Re:You forget. We ARE the world. (Score:2, Insightful)
You might want to read up on how many civilians the US has killed since
(ps: You know the Iraqi citizens are protesting _against_ the US occupation - right?)
Re:You forget. We ARE the world. (Score:2)
Re:You forget. We ARE the world. (Score:2)
Re:You forget. We ARE the world. (Score:2, Insightful)
For instance, flying two airliners into the World Trade Center was not a "mistake". Bombing The USS Cole was not a "mistake". Walking into a marketplace and pushing a button to blow yourself up along with 20 people around you is not a "mistake".
Re:You forget. We ARE the world. (Score:2)
Pointing precisely a tank towards a well-known hotel took long minutes and programming a high-precision missile is hardly something which is not double or triple checked (or at least I hope so).
Btw, there's not many differences between people which are dead/wounded by mistake and those which are dead/wounded due to deliberate acts.
Re:You forget. We ARE the world. (Score:2)
State specific violations of the Geneva convention. You can't. Why? Because the people held in Guantanamo Bay were not captured as uniformed soldiers, so the Geneva convention does not apply to them.
Wrong. Many European countries have sent or are sending troops to other countries (African most of the t
Re:You forget. We ARE the world. (Score:2, Insightful)
Why? Because the people held in Guantanamo Bay were not captured as uniformed soldiers, so the Geneva convention does not apply to them.
So they are civil prisoners, who deserve a lawyer and have the right to a fair trial, neither of which is given to them. The Geneva convention might not apply, but that doesn't prevent it from being illegal imprisonment.
Very little was done by any other nation following the Revolutionary War to provide the U.S. with economic aide to rebuild the nation following war.
Re:You forget. We ARE the world. (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:You forget. We ARE the world. (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Wait... (Score:2)
PhD candidate taking a break?! (Score:5, Funny)
I'm appalled. Since when have PhD students had the luxury of "taking a break"?
When I was working on my thesis, PhD students would work 6 days a week without vacation for 4 years straight and, as far as I can see, at least the physics PhD candidates are still working like this. Is "taking a break" something that computer science people can afford?
Re:PhD candidate taking a break?! (Score:2)
The last three years (almost all research), I rarely worked more than 40hrs/week on research. My programs worked a lot more than that, but I just babysat them for a good portion of time. I had to support myself with a teaching assistantship.
Re:PhD candidate taking a break?! (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:PhD candidate taking a break?! (Score:5, Funny)
in five feet of snow! Both ways!
A link... (Score:5, Informative)
Chilling Effects Clearinghouse's Reverse Engineering FAQ [chillingeffects.org]
China? (Score:4, Insightful)
China -- NO WAY
If you seriously think you're worse off than the average chinese person because you can't legally make a backup copy of your DVDs, then you seriously need to rethink your priorities. At least in the US we have the RIGHT to speak out against the DMCA while if it were enacted in China, anyone speaking out against it would be lucky ever to be able to speak again.
Yes, the DMCA is a bad law, but it is in no way comparable to the conditions the average Chinese person faces on a daily basis.
GET SOME PRIORITIES!
Re:China? (Score:5, Insightful)
The big difference is that China is consistent in its image and its actions, you expect them to be repressive and they are, no surprise there, its not a democracy nor any kind of representative gov so your rights mean squat.
OTOH the US has been traditionally portrayed as the world's bastion for freedom, civil liberties and rights, etc
There used to be a time where opening up an Xbox or a cell phone, or a computer was not only encouraged in the us but subsidized, the US had (still has?) the largest gov tech research grants in the world. ALL those techs grew up breaking things apart looking inside them and putting them back together, and this is now illegal. Its like LEGO selling kits where its illegal to build anything else but what its portrayed on the box (stupid).
Not only is the DMCA a bad thing but in the long run will hamper US tech developement. its these guys breaking up xboxes today that build the X2020 boxes in 20 years.
Re:China? (Score:5, Insightful)
Nope. This is the country that's starting to allow *gasp* capitalists into its government, and has been allowing more and more limited free enterprise within its borders (particularly within Hong Kong) and whose economic health depends to a great degree on the continued relationship with the evil bourgeoise imperialists over in the USA. There's a great deal of hypocrisy there - I doubt more than a few of the leaders still believe in Communism; they're just trying to stay in power as long as possible.
I asked a Chinese friend of mine why they didn't dump their government, since they knew it was corrupt and oppressive. He told me, "As long as things keep improving, we deal with it. Nobody wants to dump the Communists when the economy keeps getting better."
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:China? (Score:3, Interesting)
That's where US is smart; they can portray to be democratic yet still act as a commie state. In other words, yes go and protest about the DMCA. Protest day and night, but will you make a difference? Nope. As long as the DMCA is serving the interests of XXXX and *they* want it that way and they have the spin-doctors to do damage-control, there is little you can do about it.
Oh btw, you don't really have the RIGHT to speak out against anythi
Russia does nowdays (Score:5, Insightful)
MIT (Score:5, Funny)
Talk about a great school...
* Diploma that will get you LARGE amount of cash later
* Research topic is to fiddle around with game console
* Appear to be victim and popularized as sort of a martyr on
Now if you add a dash of sex (point one - mass quantity of money, can usually bring this to realization), it would be the perfect life.
Well, if he move to china, where there's still some freedom left. heh.
(note to self: why does my sarcastic jokes always come out like troll posts? Maybe a MIT education would help?)
Re:MIT (Score:2)
man the guy certainly has a lot of time to meddle with the XBOX
it was couple of nights...he's a typical MIT grad student i.e. smarter than half of
Now if you add a dash of sex
he's got a cute sig-oth.
Implications. (Score:5, Insightful)
This guy is now pushing out a book on x-box hacking and MS is not doing anything. While his problems publishing it is speaking volumes as a concrete example of how real and present the whole "chilling effect" meme is on defeating free speech, the point remains that he is refusing to be deterred and forcing this book through come hell or high water.
And MS, realizing if they try to get a book banned because it talks about their video game system, they'll face public backlash, they'll have the EFF go "holy shit this is the big one", and they'll lose after years in the supreme court after having being hurt more by the case than the PHD student... is not taking action.
So, here's my question: in six or seven years, someone is going to write a book about Palladium, and all known ways to hack it. And either it will end any use of Palladium as a security technology (though probably preseving its use as a monopoly prolonger)... or MS will try to have this book banned.
Is there going to be any difficulty for MS, if they try to stop the book on palladium hacking then, considering that they didn't stop the book on x-box hacking now? Are they setting any kind of precedents that people can point at in the future and say "look, if XYZ is illegal, then why wasn't that x box book in 2003 illegal?"
Re:Implications. (Score:5, Interesting)
The hope is in part to establish some kind of precedent about fair use, whether or not it sticks around long enough to matter when Trusted Computing hits full stride. At least, it will provide a solid starting point for arguments
Re:Implications. (Score:2, Interesting)
I'm actually still working on trying to get it published by someone, but I'm not pinning my hopes on it...hopefully in a few weeks someone will pick it up and I won't be printing the book myself anymore. It's a bit too time consuming. On the other hand, I feel like if I don't get the book out myself, it'll never get out...it could end up in legal review la la land for months, maybe years...whereas if I just print it and start selling it, and I don't end up in jail, maybe that will give some
I'm wondering... (Score:5, Interesting)
Why fiddle around with a $200 XBox and load Linux on it after circumventing a 100 security holes, when a Linux PC can be had for the same price on Walmart?
How many of us can afford an XBox but not a separate PC? Even if somehow it's possible to load Linux on an XBox and attach a CD writer, USB mouse, kbd etc., is it still worth the trouble?
The more I read such articles, the more I get the feeling MS is DESPARATE to sell these XBoxen. Does the
Re:I'm wondering... (Score:3, Insightful)
Apart from the fact that people who already own xboxes don't have to fork out for a new computer, the big thing is third-party software, as far as I can see. If there was an easy, fully functioning Linux port to the xbox, you could write a game, or any other kind of application, and have it run on an xbox without any kind of licensing from Microsof
Re:I'm wondering... (Score:2)
If I had that much intelligence, I wouldn't be playing those games myself, I'd probably do it for fun on my own XBox (DMCA and MS don't apply) or for money. How many good programmers do you know who spend their time on frivolous things like games? People who write code, including game code, are generally introvert and their primary motivation is to sell the code for money.
Wit
Re:I'm wondering... (Score:2)
Apart from the fact that this is a blanket statement with nothing to back it up, there seems to be plenty of people who share code freely without any expectation of getting paid. And you seem to have missed the "or any other kind of application" bit of my post, despite quoting it. Think of webtv-type applications, for example.
Re:I'm wondering... (Score:5, Informative)
So no, this isn't a ploy by Microsoft to sell XBoxes to people that aren't going to buy games with them. That doesn't make sense.
As for the price of a modded XBox, check the last story on XBox modding. We went over it with a fine tooth comb and found that modding a used XBox is somewhat cheaper than buying a fresh, weak Linux PC, but only if you don't need more functionality than a modded XBox can offer (games, server, media player, Xbox game machine, fun toy, and nothing else).
Re:I'm wondering... (Score:5, Interesting)
I find this assumption highly questionable. Profit and Loss are complex to determine, especially with intangible commodities around. Consider the foll. items under profit and loss for the XBox:
Profits:
1. Every XBox sold adds to the installed base and is a potential for upgrades and service.
2. Free testing of the security and robustness of the system by the user-base.
3. Access to workarounds, cracks, mod-chips and 'other' games on the XBox - avbl in the market.
4. Time lost by
5. Delays to Open Source projects caused by distracted and otherwise talented gamers
Losses (dubious):
1. A questionable and meagre loss on the sale of the hardware.
The profits far outweigh the losses, IMO.
Re:I'm wondering... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:I'm wondering... (Score:2)
Re:I'm wondering... (Score:3, Insightful)
I don't think this is all a big ploy by MS, but it's possible, and I'm sure they're certainly taking all these factors into consideration. I tend to be very skeptical about the stories of MS losing money on the XBox. Even if it were true, you could compare it to them not making money on Windows. People pirate
Re:I'm wondering... (Score:2)
Why is this difficult to u'stand? A company which threatens and files lawsuits against 'perceived' competitors such as Lindows, a co. that uses its monopoly all it can to expand it's server markets, a co. which promotes it's proprietary Media Player with draconian licensing terms is DOING NOTHING TO STOP XBox LINUX!!
Why? Let MS come clean and say, we will NEVER use DMCA against the XBox hackers - on reco
Re:I'm wondering... (Score:2)
Why is this difficult to u'stand?
The Linux on the XBox crowd is so small that it is unimportant to MS. If they want to build up sales to XBox they wouldn't do so by doing nothing and hoping Linux users all buy an XBox. They have a lot better chance of increasing sales by, oh, I don't know, advertising maybe? Or getting the "killer app" that PS2 has (GTA3), but XBox doesn't. Maybe MS is ignoring the Linux
Re:Because (Score:4, Interesting)
Publish in Europe... (Score:5, Insightful)
Just like Michael Moore has done with Stupid White Men, he moved to Penguin because they gave him the support against the corporate heavyweights.
And of course he could just publish it as an ebook on the internet.
Re:Publish in Europe... (Score:5, Insightful)
I'd imagine that Andrew Huang would rather not leave the US never to return. He seems to have a pretty sweet deal with MIT atm, which I'm sure he doesnt want to give up and he also seems to be a pretty clued in guy. I can't see him pushing it if MS come down heavy.
Cool Article (Score:5, Interesting)
The xbox is slightly changed around a bit from version to version. Not really sophisticated stuff but they do shuffle the pcb layout a little to keep chippers guessing for a couple of minutes. Mostly to cut costs I would suspect.
The reality is, that if they closed up the D0 line on the bios chips they would be quite a large step closer to removing the ability for modchips to be used. Most of the chips implicitly rely on pulling D0 to ground.
Even though this MIT guy is cool and talks about some decent things you can hardly blame microsoft for trying to shut the guy up. At the end of the day every person that has ever wanted a modchip from me has wanted it for piracy - not so he can have a fabulous webserver etc.
Re:Cool Article (Score:2, Informative)
Microsoft most probably use the LPC-bus together with grounding
Ironic... (Score:5, Insightful)
- Building unlicensed automatic weapons and explosive devices [firequest.com]
- Converting post-ban assault rifles for fully-automatic operation [firequest.com]
- Breaking and entering [paladin-press.com]
- Creating a counterfeit identity [paladin-press.com]
I guess it's like the view that violence in a film is more appropriate for a wide audience than sexual content.
Looking back... (Score:5, Interesting)
..this reminds me - for no clear reason - on the controversy surrounding PGP when it was first written. While it was illegal to export the code in binary form (ie as a file) as it was considered a mution, it was quite allright to print out a stack of paper and send it abroad, letting some poor sod punch it all back in.
No, I know this isn't like that, but I'm reminded of it, that's all. Possible because the information already is 'out in the wild', but can't be 'officialy' published.
Re:Looking back... (Score:5, Informative)
Profiting from cracking. (Score:2, Insightful)
If this was about the information getting out there, it could (for instance) be put up on GNUtella or somesuch anonymously.
No, this is about profiting from the adventure. Even pre-DMCA, this was a no-no.
Obligatory OOP rights (Score:2, Funny)
Int Corporate.Rights=-100
if(User.Location=="USA" || User.Assets.Cash.Value<1000000){
while(Goverment.People.Representation<Goverment.P
User.Rights -=1;
Corporate.Rights +=10;
}
else {
User.Rights+=1;
Corporate.Rights = Corporate.Rights;
}
U can pre order the book from Bunnie's website (Score:5, Informative)
To quote from his site:
"A book so controversial that publishers are afraid to print it!"
"Hurry and get "Hacking the Xbox" before Microsoft does!"
According to the site, the book is shipping in May ( year not specified though
Sorry, correct url is "index.html" not ind ex.html (Score:2)
This is the last straw... (Score:2, Funny)
Apparently,
Why all this obsession with XBox hacking? (Score:2, Insightful)
This is bordering on prior restraint (Score:5, Insightful)
Judges do not take kindly to the words "prior restraint" or "chilling effect" as there is ample Supreme Court precedent firmly against both. An event such as this could help turn the tide of a future DMCA challenge.
And this isn't internet, it's the publishing of good old dead-tree books that judges can understand.
Re:This is bordering on prior restraint (Score:2)
Oh if only it were so [slashdot.org].
One slight difference (Score:2)
Now if Edelman had done the research and was stopped from publishing a book about it, the cases would be approximately equal. Didn't he know it's better to ask forgiveness than permission?
Access Some Sites - get on the FBI's list! (Score:3, Interesting)
The article also lists four other sites (drug paraphenalia sites 1 [pipesforyou.com] 2 [colorchangingglass.com] 3 [420now.com] 4 [omnilounge.com]) which are blocked by the DEA. Interesting part, click them, now the DEA, FBI whoever knows you checked them out. Disturbing.
So, I made sure I connected to all these links. It would be nice if other people did this too because a high volume of random connects, will essentially make data collection worthless. Anyone know more of these?
Re:No... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Free Speech? WTF?? (Score:5, Insightful)
If I own the damn hardware, I should get to do what I want with it. Including hacking it. It shouldn't be illegal - that's rather the point...
Re:Free Speech? WTF?? (Score:2, Insightful)
Damn wrong!
At least 50% of the people modding their X-Boxes do so to be able to watch their downloaded DivX-movies on it.
But that's besides the point. Even if it's true that most people mod it to run illegal copies, just modding it shouldn't be illegal. Actually playing the pirated games on it should be (and is already) illegal, but not just modding the hardware, becau
Re:Free Speech? WTF?? (Score:5, Insightful)
Doing what you want with your purchase is a long established practice under the doctrine of first sale.
It should only be a problem if you use your purchased item in the commission of a crime against another person or their property.
Posessing knowledge, or the dissemination of knowledge should never be a crime. If the information is that important, safeguard the information in the first place.
Re:Free Speech? WTF?? (Score:3, Insightful)
Before we start, a few points:
O.K. Th
Re:... where people have some freedoms left (Score:5, Insightful)
The same freedoms that citizens enjoy in every other country: everything, except those things forbidden by the laws made by your government. We citizens of democratic countries can choose our own governments and thus have some influence over what laws are passed, but that influence is very limited. Politicians do not necessarily always have our interests at heart, or your individual interests may be different to those of the voting mob.
The US is an excellent example of a country where laws are being passed (DMCA etc.) that seem to benefit a small special interest rather than the general public. You have the freedom to choose your own government, a freedom that the Chinese lack. But I bet that in China you are free to publish any paper on Xbox modding that you can come up with. The Chinese government could forbid it and there would be little that their citizens could do about it, but they haven't done so.
Re:... where people have some freedoms left (Score:4, Insightful)
In Soviet Russia,
anything not specifically allowed by the state is forbidden.
In the US Republic,
anything not specifically forbidden is allowed.
Re:... where people have some freedoms left (Score:2)
Wrong. A communist country explicitly subordinates the economic interests of an individual to the economic interests of the people as a whole. It also places extreme limits of freedom of expression that are vastly worse than anything we've ever had in the US. There is no real concept of personal independence. You ever seen Star Trek: TNG? You remember the Borg?
Re:... where people have some freedoms left (Score:5, Insightful)
Whereas in a democracy, individual interests may be subjugated to the interests of the mob, the interests of elected representatives (or their pals), or the fad of the day ("protection against terrorists"). Democracy does not equal freedom; one can imagine a democracy where everything is decided by majority vote: laws, policies, but also what clothes will appear in the stores this summer, and what will be for dinner this evening. I exxagerate, but the point is that freedom does not follow automatically from democracy, but is derived only from limitations placed on what the government can and cannot do. Look at Afghanistan where an oppressive government of religious fanatics was voted in, by a majority who knew full well what they were voting for. If you happened to be a woman in that country who did not wish to have to cover her head in public, you'd be shit out of luck despite the fact you'd be living in a democracy.
Democracies tend to place the emphasis on individualism, as opposed to communism favouring collectivism. But democracies can and do go overboard sometimes on regulations and laws that severly limit our personal freedom in favour of a (sometimes very tenuously) alledged Greater Good.
Re:... where people have some freedoms left (Score:2)
Re:... where people have some freedoms left (Score:2)
Re:... where people have some freedoms left (Score:5, Interesting)
I have lived in communist country (unwillingly) for 20 years. You could be arrested for no reason, but laws presented a lot of freedom (which was not guranteed and people were arrested).
To get back to Your question - it looks like communist countries have the same kind of "freedom" as U. S. citizens:
* neither can tell the world what they want
* neither of them could go wherever they want - try to go for a trip to Syria and we'll see how long You will stay at customs when You will return.
* noth of them are forced to conform to a ton of stupid laws like alcohol in paperbags and right to work (this meant You have to be employee, kind of commie law).
That's from theoretical point of view. Practically citizens in any country have the amount of freedom granted by their leaders/government. These leaders and governments are as stupid, as the majority of citizens in given country.
Re:... where people have some freedoms left (Score:2)
Re:... where people have some freedoms left (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:... where people have some freedoms left (Score:5, Insightful)
What kind of "freedom" does a citizen have in a communist country?
China is a very oppressive country and Russia is still very oppressive as well. I think the idea behind the "where people still have some freedoms left" comment was to point out that the people in two much more oppressive countries than the US have a freedom that we do not. Even worse, it's an intellectual freedom governing knowledge and free speech, which is something that countries like China are usually much more restrictive about than the United States.
In other words, it's like pointing out something that some black power/racial pride/anti-defamation group does and saying, "Wow! Even the Klan doesn't do that!"
Re:... where people have some freedoms left (Score:5, Insightful)
But anyway, both communism and capiltalism are simply alternatives, industry in communist countries is owned and controlled by the government, in capitalist countries it is controlled by the corperations. In communist countries the laws are tightly controlled to benifit the governement, and, not suprisingly, the laws in capitalist countries are beginning to be tightly controled to benifit the corperations.
It is true that capitalism had allways been seen as connected tightly with freedom, but we must remember that during the early USSR, the people had unprecedented freedom, it just seems that capitalism takes a little longer to degenerate into a dictatorship.
Russia was not, and China isn't (Score:4, Insightful)
Russian wasn't communist, and China isn't. Both are totalitarian governments in much the same way as Hitler's Germany or Pinochet's Chile.
Just because they said/say they are communist doesn't make it so.
Re:china's freedom (Score:2)
Last time I went there (Janurary 2003) I could access CNN and SourceForge just fine (in contrast to Slashdot's "news").
Re:A Rant [OT] (Score:2)