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Computer Scientists Rally for Reliable Voting System

Posted by michael on Fri Feb 14, 2003 08:47 PM
from the voting-is-a-duty-not-a-right dept.
Kim Alexander writes "Silicon Valley computer scientists, led by Stanford professor David Dill are asking Santa Clara county to purchase a new computerized voting system only if it provides a voter verified paper trail. Their concerns are based on the lack of adequate testing of these voting systems, and the fact that the software is closed-source and proprietary. Requiring a voter-verified paper trail will mitigate many of these problems. Dill's 'Resolution on Electronic Voting' has been endorsed by prominent computer scientists from all over the country, including Ron Rivest. Counties all over California and the US are going through a similar process. Patriotic nerds who want to do something to help protect our fundamental right to vote with confidence that our votes will be counted can help by contacting their state and local reps, writing letters to supervisors and getting informed!"
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  • Patriotic, Schmatriotic (Score:3, Interesting)

    by blair1q (305137) on Friday February 14 2003, @08:50PM (#5306859)
    (Last Journal: Thursday October 17 2002, @10:28AM)
    The first person who writes and validates a working, bulletproof software system for collecting votes wins $$billions.

    That's the kind of patriotism we need.
    • Patriotic Anti-Trust Voting by joeszilagyi (Score:1) Friday February 14 2003, @09:02PM
    • Re:Patriotic, Schmatriotic (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 14 2003, @09:26PM (#5306972)
      This seems an appropriate time to remind everyone of this.

      http://www.acm.org/classics/sep95/

      The wisdom in computerized voting systems is certainly debatable.
      Proprietary software, whose code cannot be publicly audited, and whose code cannot be independently tested, should never be allowed near voting booths (or sites)

      And a paper trail? Will we visit everyone who voted to check their voting stub? And won't that identify who I voted for specifically in a way that can be checked and directly tied to me, defeating the purpose of a voting booth?

      I hope the potential savings don't outshine the potential risks.

      [ Parent ]
      • Open Source, Closed Network by BadlandZ (Score:3) Friday February 14 2003, @11:15PM
      • Re:Patriotic, Schmatriotic (Score:4, Insightful)

        by Kwelstr (114389) on Friday February 14 2003, @11:18PM (#5307304)
        You are missing the point, the paper vote is not "papaer trail" but a hard copy for backup. I voted in Florida last election with an electronic voting machine. After making all my choices, I pressed the "vote" button only to get a greeting: thanks for voting.

        Well, it felt like hmmmmm did I REALLY vote? Where is my vote? How can I tell I voted? Did the machine tabulated my vote correctly? I still don't know any of that for sure... we have to blind trust the voting machine as it is now. Something that gives me a very uneasy feeling.

        On the other hand, if you produce a hard copy that you can review and then as a back up put it in a ballot box. Well, at least you will know the vote is there and it can be audited if the machine gets lost or damaged somehow.

        Just my 2 cents.

        [ Parent ]
        • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
      • Re:Patriotic, Schmatriotic by terraformer (Score:1) Saturday February 15 2003, @09:15AM
    • I win! by SHEENmaster (Score:2) Friday February 14 2003, @11:06PM
    • Patriotic, Schmatriotic, Pessimistic by Mulletproof (Score:2) Friday February 14 2003, @11:51PM
    • The Problem by Tuxinatorium (Score:2) Saturday February 15 2003, @12:01AM
      • Re:The Problem by afidel (Score:2) Saturday February 15 2003, @03:29AM
    • Re:Patriotic, Schmatriotic by VistaBoy (Score:2) Saturday February 15 2003, @12:55AM
    • There's an OPEN SOURCE voting system available! by aebrain (Score:3) Saturday February 15 2003, @02:05AM
    • 3 replies beneath your current threshold.
  • Keep in mind by John Jorsett (Score:2) Friday February 14 2003, @08:51PM
    • Re:Keep in mind (Score:5, Interesting)

      by The Dobber (576407) on Friday February 14 2003, @09:00PM (#5306890)
      The reverse could also be said. Those that wish to unseat the incumbent wants something different.

      The best way to elect our representatives is not through the use of technology, wiz-bang gadgets, open source software or even legal challenges.

      Its gett ing Joe Six-Pack and the rest of the disenchanted voters off thier duffs and out to the polls. Rather than complain, execrcise the right to vote people. Had this been the case in 2000, we would have had a clear winner

      [ Parent ]
      • Re:Keep in mind (Score:4, Interesting)

        by John Jorsett (171560) on Friday February 14 2003, @09:12PM (#5306928)
        Its getting Joe Six-Pack and the rest of the disenchanted voters off thier duffs and out to the polls.

        Personally, I think voting ought to be made as difficult and inconvenient as possible. If voting were like crawling over broken glass, only those who really really were interested would do it, and we'd get a better product. Keep the ignorant and lazy out of the electoral process, I say.

        [ Parent ]
      • Re:Keep in mind by sketerpot (Score:1) Friday February 14 2003, @11:04PM
      • Un-Disenchanted Voter by G. Waters (Score:1) Saturday February 15 2003, @06:50PM
    • Re:Keep in mind by frdmfghtr (Score:1) Saturday February 15 2003, @01:33AM
  • Covered on NPR earlier this week? by Anonymous Coward (Score:2) Friday February 14 2003, @08:51PM
    • Re:Covered on NPR earlier this week? by kenf (Score:1) Friday February 14 2003, @09:46PM
      • Here it is (NPR 2/10/03) (Score:4, Insightful)

        by MacAndrew (463832) on Friday February 14 2003, @10:49PM (#5307205)
        (http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/)
        NPR link [npr.org] ("State and local officials buy electronic voting machines in hopes of avoiding the low-tech messiness of pencil marks on paper ballots and so-called "hanging chads." But some computer scientists say vote-counting computers are inaccurate. NPR's Dan Charles reports.")

        Now, "inaccurate" isn't quite the right word. Unreliable? Not robust? The problem being tampering, accident, or oversight, not the machines' native ability to add accurately.

        *
        Good for you, to have written.

        The thing is that they need a hook of some sort. I don't think they're going to understand how important it is, unfortunately, until there is a tragedy. Similarly, you wouldn't have been able to get them to do a story on your criticisms of Space Shuttle heat shielding until, well, know. We wouldn't even be dumping punchcard ballors en masse -- and switching to electonic systems of questionable pedigree -- if not for Election 2000.

        What would be wonderful, if it could be done, would be a comparison of actual voter intent with vote tallies. I know they do test runs (sometimes) but what the public would find compelling is a concrete "you screwed up this election" result. Kind of like the first time DNA shows we executed the worng person.

        The errors made with electronic system, more often innocent than malicious, have been amusing so far. When something ugly happens, will we even catch it, let alone see it coming?
        [ Parent ]
    • Re:Covered on NPR earlier this week? by mmol_6453 (Score:1) Friday February 14 2003, @09:58PM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • by Hott of the World (537284) on Friday February 14 2003, @08:54PM (#5306865)
    (http://slashdot.org/ | Last Journal: Wednesday May 25 2005, @08:00PM)
    ...but who's gonna teach Florida how to use them?
  • Closed-Source? (Score:5, Interesting)

    I cannot support any voting system that's closed source. I want to know what the voting system is doing with my vote, and the only reliable way to do that and to maintain a free society is to be able to see the source. That doesn't mean everyone should be a contributor, but we should see what we're dealing with.
    • Re:Closed-Source? by Pike65 (Score:2) Friday February 14 2003, @09:06PM
    • Re:Closed-Source? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by GnrcMan (53534) on Friday February 14 2003, @09:22PM (#5306956)
      (http://www.kckd.org/)
      Well, I think a voting system with a voter-verified paper audit trail is probably actually better than having an open source voting system.

      Look at it this way, even if you can see the source code for the voting system, you cannot be assured that it is installed, configured, and working properly in an actual election. Further, most of the population would have no idea what to do if they had the source code. The source code is no substitute for votes being actually recorded to paper, verified by the voter, and dropped in the ballot box, and with actual paper votes, the source code becomes somewhat moot, since you can see what you are voting for.
      [ Parent ]
    • Open Code Doesn't Guarantee Integrity by Pave Low (Score:1) Friday February 14 2003, @09:24PM
    • Re:Closed-Source? by Woogiemonger (Score:2) Friday February 14 2003, @09:29PM
      • Re:Closed-Source? (Score:5, Insightful)

        by istartedi (132515) on Friday February 14 2003, @11:48PM (#5307360)
        (Last Journal: Thursday April 18 2002, @07:50PM)

        The electoral system isn't "antiquated". If the founders had intended the electoral college members to be nothing more than courriers, they could have easily done that. They didn't.

        Ironicly, the electoral system serves to make sure that people are counted. Without the electoral system, nobody would bother to campaign in New Hampshire. Is it unfair that voters in rural New England have such a disproportionate impact on the election? In a sense, yes. However, it's the price that we pay for not having a country dominated by New York and LA with everybody in the middle pissing and moaning about how the City Slickers run everything, and deciding to secede from the Union.

        The system failed once, resulting in a little fight you may remember from history... unless you were taught in a public school or something.

        What's really interesting is to look at an electoral map of the 2000 election. Do that, and you see that while the majority of the *people* voted for Gore, the vast majority of the *country* voted for Bush. So, in most parts of the country people are happy. It's just the City Slickers that are pissed, and they aren't allowed to buy guns so who cares? :)

        [ Parent ]
    • Re:Closed-Source? (Score:4, Insightful)

      by geekee (591277) on Friday February 14 2003, @10:15PM (#5307118)
      All the punch card reader systems so far have been closed source. Plus mechanical voting systems makers don't provide blue-prints. Why the sudden outcry now that the machines are more modern?
      [ Parent ]
    • An Example of Closed Source by Alien54 (Score:3) Friday February 14 2003, @10:53PM
    • Re:Closed-Source? by FallLine (Score:2) Saturday February 15 2003, @12:44AM
    • 2 replies beneath your current threshold.
  • Privacy... (Score:3, Insightful)

    ...Can only be possible with a sort of one-way encryption of a code, such as an md5sum. I'd hate to be able to have a vote traced back to me.

    The next issue will be how to let the voter verify his vote (in the case of a recount, or contested count) without being identified as having voted one way or another.
    • Re:Privacy... by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Friday February 14 2003, @09:39PM
      • Re:Privacy... by mmol_6453 (Score:2) Friday February 14 2003, @10:10PM
    • Re:Privacy... by Dyolf Knip (Score:2) Saturday February 15 2003, @12:53AM
    • Re:Privacy... by Albanach (Score:2) Saturday February 15 2003, @02:55AM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • by sls1j (580823) on Friday February 14 2003, @09:01PM (#5306896)
    If there so worried the voting software is closed source, why not start and open source project?
  • by argoff (142580) on Friday February 14 2003, @09:03PM (#5306900)
    I honestly half to say I'm not too concerned about the absoluteness of democracy (for lack of better wording). Democracy is not an end in itself, but a tool for protecting individual liberties - and like any tool it can be abused too. It's disgusting to hear people suggesting that if you don't like something isn't right in a democracy - you have no right to have any other recourse accept to vote.

    What's right and wrong, good and bad, truth or lie is not decided by popular vote or public opinion - but by observable facts that exist independently. What I hope happens is that new technologies "force" democracy to become more free even if it tries not to. EG, a voting popluace would never shut down the internet - but it may be impossible to stop free mp3's any other way. A voting population would never shut down ecommerce - but this would provide the infrastructure to avoid unjust tax even if the mob desperately tries to impose it.
  • As if the "paper trail" is valid? (Score:4, Informative)

    by Shivetya (243324) <shivetya.archonon@com> on Friday February 14 2003, @09:04PM (#5306905)
    (http://slashdot.org/)
    I understand the possibility of fraud and such... we had electronic voting here in Georgia this last election cycle and it did very well.

    If your disabled you can get assistance, and the machines can voice the choices as well for vision impaired.

    There is a review at the end of the voting processing asking you to verify the choices you made are accurately represented.

    Votes are transmitted to a central site and kept in the voting machines. They have multiple ways to prevent loss of votes due to power outages as well.

    What this all leading up to is, how can the suggestion of printing out votes at the end of the day be meaningful? If the voter isn't there to review their votes who decides that anything nefarious hasn't happened?

    If anything, a paper trail AFTER any voters have left is more of a risk that not having one. Suddenly you get back into the days of ballot stuffing, but instead now you just invalidate votes as needed. (or call for a new election, hoping your side turns out more this time).

    Electronic voting still doesn't stop dead people from voting either, they just file absentee ballots.
  • by Lord_Pall (136066) on Friday February 14 2003, @09:06PM (#5306911)
    http://www.bestoftheblogs.com/2003_02_05_bestof.ht ml#90279110

    This is an article about Chuck Hagel who is a nebraska representative. He ran for office and won in a very close run off, and controls a large interest in the private company that counted the votes in his runoff election.

    The majority of the information in the above blog came from http://blackboxvoting.com/, which is a book about the future of electronic voting.

    Just some fairly creepy stuff that's turned me off towards any sort of private computerized voting.
  • A paper trail is too insecure. (Score:5, Interesting)

    by wackybrit (321117) on Friday February 14 2003, @09:09PM (#5306918)
    (http://www.worth1000.com/ | Last Journal: Saturday August 10 2002, @09:05PM)
    The problem here is that a paper trail is too easy to for other people to read.

    Elections in Western countries are meant to be by secret ballot, people. That means your vote is anonymous. Why? Because people don't want other people knowing who they voted for. If someone voted for the 'Kill All Geeks' party, that's their right, and you can't condemn them for their vote (although you can certainly condemn them for their actions).

    The best alternative solution to a paper trail would be to use a secure database that has public access. That is, members of the public can run a set of limited commands on it.. like

    SELECT COUNT() FROM votes WHERE party='republican';

    Or

    SELECT COUNT() FROM votes WHERE state='alabama' AND sexuality='gay';

    That way, the populace can access the database over the net and query it by SQL, checking the validity of the votes.

    Preferably you'd use a proprietary database system to store the votes, as then you can be sure security is not compromised. A paper trail just opens up a whole bag of communist ghouls.
    • Anonymous Voting != Secret Ballot by semios (Score:1) Friday February 14 2003, @09:34PM
      • Re:Anonymous Voting != Secret Ballot (Score:5, Interesting)

        by thogard (43403) on Friday February 14 2003, @09:45PM (#5307030)
        (http://web.abnormal.com/)
        The problem is I can't trace my vote back to where its been counted. Now if an electronic system gives me a vote reciept, then I can go to a web site later and say 'Tell me who "0304756745383834743646374" voted for'. If I've got that ticket in my hand and my votes don't match whats in the database, then I've got reason to complain. This has other problems because its trivial in small towns to figure out which IP address goes with which household but any verificaion system will have massive risks.

        What scares me is I used to work for a largeish credit card company. They would lose records from time to to time. Thouse records invovled real money but sometimes they just disappeared without any ability to trace them. Everytime I've audited a system that logged in two places, some records just don't end up in both place. The best ones seem to have about one in a hundred million go missing, but they are still lost. I want the voting system to be at least that good.
        [ Parent ]
    • A paper trail can be secure (Score:4, Insightful)

      by stripmarkup (629598) on Friday February 14 2003, @09:34PM (#5307007)
      (http://bonoki.com/)
      Suppose N people decide to vote on an issue. For simplicity, let's assume that the vote is A or B. You pick a random number that only you know. In order to vote, you add your number and your vote to a list. At the end of the election, the paper trail is shown:

      1928787: A
      7483978: B
      1662656: B
      ...
      etc.

      Along with a tally of the votes. Every voter can verify that their number is followed by their vote. You don't know what the other random numbers correspond to, but if yours was 1928787 you know that your vote is there and was counted as 'A'.

      This is the basic idea. There's more to it of course, but it can be done.
      [ Parent ]
    • Re:A paper trail is too insecure. by afidel (Score:2) Saturday February 15 2003, @03:48AM
    • Re:A paper trail is too insecure. by Avedon (Score:1) Saturday February 15 2003, @08:12AM
    • 2 replies beneath your current threshold.
  • Hear hear! (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 14 2003, @09:12PM (#5306924)
    It's not a vote if I can't hold the ballot in my hand, look down and see "Al Buchanan" in the PRESIDENT column and say "1 for Al!".

    The ballot needs to be:

    Machine generated from a touch screen like device.
    Machine and human readable.
    Signed so as to be verifiable.

    The ballot reciept, that's placed into the voting machine, is a random private key, handed to the voter before voting that is used to sign the ballot and ensure integrity. The voter can then take the receipt/key with them and use an Id number to check that their vote was actually tallyed.

    This allows machine counts of paper ballots. It allows manual, human auditing of ballots and tally. It allows machine and human recounts of the ballots. It preserves the voting record for the election on something besides magnetic media. It allows "quick summary" for those willing to rely upon the stored, machine versions of the votes before physically counting the ballots.

    This is the only way. You MUST have a piece of paper you can go back to and find a vote. Anything else is simply unacceptable.

    And, no, it's not over the internet, but we know that will never fly anyway.
  • The objection does not go far enough (Score:5, Interesting)

    by originalhack (142366) on Friday February 14 2003, @09:13PM (#5306929)

    The fundamental issue is as follows....

    Consider 2 elections. In one, you and I and everyone else have exactly a 75% chance of having their votes counted. In the other, the affluent young technocracy has a 99% chance of having their votes counted and the poor, old, or low-tech population has a 95% chance of having their votes counted. At first blush, the seond electiuon sounds more fair, but it is very clear that the first is totally fair and the second is terribly biased.

    The problems in recent elections were not caused by technological failures. Dangling chads and the like are just a smokescreen and the recounts bore that out. The problems in elections are a lack of uniformity within the areas in which votes are pooled. Since the votes for president are done by electoral votes rather than popular vote, it is not necessary to have the entire country have identical machines and ballots, but this does need to happen at the state level. When I walk into my polling place, I should see an identical machine to every other voter in the state (randomly selected from the state pool). All the state ballots should be identical to every other ballot in the state. All the county ballots should be identical to every other ballot in the county, etc....

    To do otherwise not only fails to solve the fairness problem, but it disinfranchises people for whom a mouse is a household pest.
  • by semios (146723) on Friday February 14 2003, @09:20PM (#5306945)
    (http://www.gnufoo.org/)
    What scares me is the fact that Electronic Gambling Machines have more oversight than these Electronic Voting Machines. Gambling institutions that provide electronic gaming are subject to random searches where the eeproms will popped out and verified that no tampering has been committed.

    However, when it comes to protecting the foundation of democracy we can't even be given access to the source code as it is a "trade secret." Here's an example [sweetliberty.org] of this privatization of democracy:

    In the West Virginia case [where an election supervisor, a candidate, a prosecutor, a county commissioner, election workers and the voting machine vendor were all sued by a group of candidates who believed that they had been cheated in the election], although the criminal charges were dropped, the judge had not allowed the jury to see a demonstration by the plaintiff's attorneys' computer expert, Wayne Nunn, PhD, a project scientist for Union Carbide who had designed multimillion-dollar computer networks.


    After a nine-hour examination of the CES (now Business Records Corporation) computer system in question and in the presence of the CES president, the system's programmer, and others,

    "Nunn, with one punch card, added ten thousand votes to the total of one of the candidates in a mock race for president". [ The New Yorker , November 7 th 1988, p. 68]

    Nunn subsequently gave a deposition under cross-examination and revealed seven ways in which the system could be deliberately caused to miscount votes, including by manipulation of the toggle switch on the front of the machine to alter vote totals and by inserting a set of secret Trojan Horse commands into the source-code software as described earlier. So it can be done. But can it be detected and prosecuted?

    A methodical expert analysis of the company's source-code could have been the key to determining the existence of fraud, but CES officials asked presiding Judge Charles H. Haden II, of the United States District Court, to block Nunn from inspecting their code on the basis that it was a "trade secret". Ultimately, the judge ordered that Nunn alone be allowed to view it, but without the computer he needed for a proper system analysis.

    Nevertheless, he discovered "trap doors", "wait loops", and Christmas trees" which could all serve the same end of undetectable vote fraud. According to the New Yorker's Ronnie Dugger, after viewing the code for several hours,

    "Nunn was prepared to testify that a ?debugger' in the BT-76 program, while enabling a programmer to make repairs in the program, was also a Trojan Horse; Haden excluded such testimony".

    Nunn was allowed to testify that "he had concluded that the program had been altered during the counting".

    The jury was also barred from seeing Nunn demonstrate how he could alter the vote count.

    The case of Wayne Nunn being allowed to examine the proprietary source-code of the CES system is an extraordinary exception. The fact is that very few individuals outside of the computer vendors have ever been allowed to inspect the source-code of that or any other election equipment company. This was confirmed by Eva Waskell, the director of the Elections Project at Computer Professionals for Social Responsibility in a 1993 report entitled "Overview of Computers and Electors".

    Many court cases involving allegations of fraud were brought against vendors of electronic systems. There were no convictions. Was there ever any proof of tampering presented? No. Part of the reason for this may be that during the litigation the plaintiffs were never given access to the vote tabulating program, and hence there was no opportunity for anyone to establish evidence to either prove or disprove the allegations. [Emphasis added]

    We should point out that even if the court allowed the plaintiff's experts to inspect the source-code, there would be no proof that the code provided to the court was, in fact, the selfsame code used in the particular election in question. Federal election officials say that a few states are mandating that the source-code be placed in escrow so that it could be examined in the event of a particularly "fishy" election result.
  • Voting Software by hackus (Score:2) Friday February 14 2003, @09:20PM
    • Re:Voting Software by SN74S181 (Score:1) Saturday February 15 2003, @10:40AM
    • Re:your sig by hackus (Score:2) Saturday February 15 2003, @12:36AM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • 2010 Internet Voting Results (Score:5, Funny)

    by willpost (449227) on Friday February 14 2003, @09:21PM (#5306955)
    The Code_Red worm has won by 7907980734278934 votes!
  • by 403Forbidden (610018) on Friday February 14 2003, @09:25PM (#5306965)
    They arn't looking for ways to detect rigging, they are just looking for a way to idiot proof it.

    The udder simplicity of this problem, and how complicated people are making it, is staggering... A simple touch screen which returns who the voter wants, then print in the name on a piece of paper in a specified font so another computer can read it. Of course the typical "are you sure" messages are thrown in there somewhere and vola! computerized voting...
  • I hope everyone remembers (Score:3, Insightful)

    by djupedal (584558) on Friday February 14 2003, @09:36PM (#5307014)
    ...when it comes to proper vote management, we're no better than many smaller and supposedly less advanced countries. Next time we blast rhetoric at Slobservia or Nigrosso for corruption in their political systems, we may need to recall our own ineptitudes. Why is is so hard for us to reliably cast and count votes?

    I don't really want answers to that, thanks.
  • by Catbeller (118204) on Friday February 14 2003, @09:41PM (#5307025)
    (http://slashdot.org/)
    1. Any voting system running on proprietary code should be assumed to be rigged.

    2. Some of the companies that make such systems (Diebold) are affiliated with far-right wing politicians.

    3. Paper audit trails do not exist. Without an audit trail, the only recount available is done by software provided by the manufacturer. Worthless.

    4. In at least one state, which one escapes my memory at the moment, it is unlawful for any agency except the manufacturer of the machines to recount votes made on the machines.

    5. A far-right wing ex-talk show host, now a congressman, was the primary shareowner of one of the voting machine manufacturers.

    6. Exit polls have become unreliable for the first time in history. Election outcomes no longer match exit sampling. Why? Either the voters decided suddenly, en masse, to lie to exit pollsters, or mathematics have ceased to function, OR the vote tallies have been tampered with. I'd go with Occam's Razor: the tallies are being altered, just enough to win; not enough to be ridculously obvious.

    7. The Florida mess. I remark on this only in passing, for I saw it mentioned by another poster. There was no mess: there was a close race, and a recount was needed. As the Floridians were proving, a perfect hand recount was easily done. But they were stopped from doing so by a partisan, panicking Supreme Court majority. Not that the thousands of operatives flooding the courts and the media weren't slowing it down to a crawl -- staged riots, lawsuits, arguing extensively over each ballot -- anything necessary to stop - that - recount. The Supremes had no legal precedent to do what they did. Constitutional scholars almost unanimously denounced the decision as BS. But they did the job.

    And yes, BS headlines to the contrary, Gore won by actual votes counted. If overvotes ("Gore" written in, and also punched) were to be counted, and they would have been, Gore won handily.

    And to my mind more importantly, if the military overseas votes postmarked after 11-07-00 had been disqualified, instead of illegally approved, Bush would have lost. Lieberman should be denied a shot at the crown just for caving on that point. those votes were sent in by Bush supporters after the close election was over, for the sole purpose of tipping the scale. Disgraceful.

    But to report this would be to invalidate the Bush support shown in the media in Dec. 2000, and shown Bush to be a manipulator and a sham.

    8. Back to point. Automated systems are fine -- but some say: a paper ballot should be printed out whenever a voter uses an automated machine. The ballot should be filed just as the hand-punched ones are today. In case of recount, the paper should be matched to the counts in the automated systems.

    But here's the kicker: if the voter never sees the paper backup, how will the voter know the vote was accurately recorded? The software could mark Danny Fatcat on the file and on the printout, and the voter who voted for George Orwell would never know it.

    The only way around this would be if the voter could review the printed audit ballot before the vote is committed. What if it doesn't match? What is the recourse?

    And what is the use of an automated system if there is a voter review of a printed ballot? Better just to use the paper ballot and run it through a scantron.

    * I don't think an automated system can be anything but rigged. The far-right ideologues in the U.S. are far too fanatical not to get involved in the manufacture and operation of these machines. It's a matter of God's will, the defeat of evil, the end of the world itself. If they can shave off a few thousand people from the Florida rolls because they have similar names to lawbreakers in other states, they can do just about anything. This is a war, and they intend to win it.
  • Heh. by Black Parrot (Score:1) Friday February 14 2003, @09:45PM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • Right on! by zogger (Score:2) Friday February 14 2003, @09:45PM
  • Paper still best (Score:3, Interesting)

    by teeth (2952) on Friday February 14 2003, @09:51PM (#5307054)
    (http://www.fluffy.force9.co.uk)
    Here in the UK we have a ballot system with an excellent paper trail and a near perfect validation protocol.

    Each voter is given a (numbered) balot form with one column of candidate names and one (mathcing) column of empty boxes into which may be entered an apropriate mark ("X" or numerically ordered preference) to indicate voting preference.

    The votes are sorted, and the sorted votes counted. This is done manually.

    Any disputed votes are examined by the returning officer and representatives of the candidates and assigned or discarded by cocsensis.

    Whilst the numbering of the ballots, and the recording by hand on the master copy of the voters roll at the polling station of which ballot is given to which voter, may slightly compromise anonimity, it provides no convenient way to decern the vote of any individual.

    The cost of the occaisional employment of large numbers of tellers is almost certainly less than that of the various "automated" polling systems and the audit trail far superior.

    • I agree. by cyberon22 (Score:2) Friday February 14 2003, @11:30PM
    • Re:Paper still best by teeth (Score:1) Saturday February 15 2003, @07:19AM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • grave disappointment.... (Score:5, Informative)

    by 3-State Bit (225583) on Friday February 14 2003, @09:57PM (#5307067)
    ...that a resolution "endorsed by computer scientists" does not propose an instant run-off system, whereby each voter ranks the candidates in order of her preference. (She can vote traditionally by ranking only one candidate 1, and no one higher).

    The benefits are enormous. The system is much less open to manipulation, and it is basically the only way for minority voices to be heard.

    One cannot overemphasize the fact that today a rational voter will always choose the lesser of two evils, without considering candidates that are not evil, based on the mathematics governing her vote.

    Let me repeat this: If you believe that a vote for the democratic candidate is a vote for evil, and you believe that a vote for the republican candidate is a vote for evil, and there is a third candidate whose views you agree with precisely, and who you think could fulfill the office perfectly were she elected (but there is zero probability of this, as there was zero probability of Nader's being elected) then under today's system your only rational choice is to forego your preference for the third candidate and vote instead for the lesser of the two evils. That is, you will be rationally impelled to vote for a candidate with whom you do not agree, when a minority candidate exists who could better represent you.

    This is no less than mathematical extortion.

    You can either participate in a two-party system, or "throw your vote away." It is, in effect, a mathematical equivalent of having a voting booth in which you are to choose betweeen seven candidates by putting your token either into the republican ballot box, the democrtatic ballot box, or the trash.

    Everyone who voted for Nader in our last presidential election placed their vote in the trash, since there was zero probability of Nader's winning. (Exception: vote trading.)

    Read more about instant run-offs here [fairvote.org], or do a google search.
  • It has to be open, simple and verifiable. by Mandelbrute (Score:2) Friday February 14 2003, @10:08PM
  • by ktakki (64573) on Friday February 14 2003, @10:13PM (#5307113)
    (http://www.artcrime.com/ktakki/ | Last Journal: Thursday April 26 2007, @11:12PM)
    Here in Allston, a neighborhood of Boston, Massachusetts, our votes were cast in a manner similar to many urban areas, with a mechanical voting machine older than I am, the kind that has a big lever that closes a curtain and a myriad small switches for selecting candidates or casting votes for referenda.

    I know that these machines have many drawbacks: they cost a lot of money to maintain, store, and "program", though I've always assumed that to "rig" these machines too commit wholesale fraudulent voting would be to time consuming and complex to pull off. Hence, I had a certain amount of faith that the lever I'd pull would actually correspond to the name on the paper strip, and my desired vote would be tallied. I know also that this faith was rooted in sentimentality; I'd accompanied my parents into machines just like that when I was a kid, back in the Sixties.

    Two elections ago, however, during a primary vote in September, there was a man at the polling place who was demonstrating a new system, produced by LHS Associtates of Methuen, MA, the "Accu-Vote" system. It used paper ballots, with small circles like on a standardized multiple choice test (like SATs, except without the need for the No. 2 pencil). There was an optical scanner that looked somewhat like a paper shredder, the kind that fits on top of a wastepaper basket. You fed the ballot through the scanner and it read the marks, ejecting the paper out the other end, into a bag, thus preserving a paper trail in case of a recount.

    I filled out one of these sample ballots. There were "joke" choices on the ballot, and I intentionally mis-voted, to see how fault-tolerant the system was. Under "Mayor", I placed a check mark in the box next to "Fiorello LaGuardia". For "Board of Cartoon Characters", I put a tiny dot next to "Bugs Bunny". Under "Superhero Committee", I filled in the box for "Wonder Woman", intentionally overfilling the mark, and for "Sports Authority" I filled two boxes, "Babe Ruth" and "Jackie Robinson".

    I went over to the company representative who was showing the demo system and handed him my ballot. He fed it into the machine and it was spit out the other side. Though I'd intentionally cast a faulty ballot, there was no indication that anything was wrong, and I showed him the marks I'd made, pointing out my screw-ups.

    "Well, this is just a demonstration," he said.

    "So, all this does is roll the paper through the mechanism?" I asked.

    "Um, well, it's just a demonstration."

    "You mean it's not a real machine?"

    "Right," he replied.

    "So the real machine would reject this ballot, right?"

    "I assume that this will be the case." He didn't sound too sure. At this point, the police who work the election detail started paying attention to our conversation. I guess election detail is pretty boring for them.

    "So who audits the code that runs this machine?" I asked him.

    "I don't know, maybe the Board of Elections," he said. "I can give you the name of the project manager. Maybe he can answer your questions." He wrote a name on the back of a business card. I took it and thanked him for his time. I called a few times but never got a callback, and I doubt I'd get a satisfactory answer.

    My fear is that it's trivial for this sort of machine to register a vote for Foo to actually be tallied as a vote for Bar. With the old mechanical machines, this sort of fraud would take days, considering the hundreds or thousands of machines and the dozens of people from the Board of Elections that set them up. However a "black box" system like Accu-Vote need only be programmed with fraudulent code once, after which that code is distributed to hundreds or thousands of EEPROMS or Flash cards or whatever the Accu-Vote uses to store its programming. The barrier to entry for wholesale voting fraud has been lowered, and if the winning margin is large enough, there will never be a recount.

    The Accu-Vote system was deployed for the November 2002 elections here in Boston. If there was a public hearing about this change from mechanical systems, I never heard about it, and I read the Boston Globe every day without fail.

    k.
  • I will never support an electronic voting system by Texodore (Score:1) Friday February 14 2003, @10:14PM
  • Dangling Chads by t0ny (Score:1) Friday February 14 2003, @10:19PM
  • Instead of Rock the vote, it will be hack the vote by hypelog (Score:1) Friday February 14 2003, @10:20PM
  • Scantron type voting equipment by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Friday February 14 2003, @10:23PM
  • Paper and Pen? by nlinecomputers (Score:1) Friday February 14 2003, @10:25PM
  • We also need to change the voting system- by Christ0ph (Score:2) Friday February 14 2003, @10:27PM
  • open source not an issue by geekee (Score:2) Friday February 14 2003, @10:29PM
  • Coverage of this story by snarfer (Score:1) Friday February 14 2003, @10:35PM
  • RISKS -- comments re electonic voting (Score:4, Informative)

    by MacAndrew (463832) on Friday February 14 2003, @10:35PM (#5307170)
    (http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/)
    The RISKS forum/digest [ncl.ac.uk] has had many, many articles on the potential and actual snafus of electronic voting; I thing the topic is a special interest of the digest's editor. Although the contributors are very much a part of the technology world, the mood there is pretty virulently anti-electronic voting unless there are old-school audit features such as paper trails. Closed source software is regarded very skeptically.

    The most persuasive evidence is the actual experiences coming in from the field, around the planet. Many local governments are buying expensive new systems on surprisingly little information, and we may face problems like Florida's in no time -- but not actually realize it, for lack of auditing. I highly recommend flipping through the archive.
  • Linux? by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Friday February 14 2003, @10:41PM
  • Perhaps voting needs to be Moderation. by t0qer (Score:2) Friday February 14 2003, @10:44PM
  • IMHO, any voting system, computerized or not, must meet the following requirements:

    - The voting must be anonymous.

    - There must be a backup method that allows for tallying votes if the primary method fails.

    - There must be a permanent audit trail to make recounts possible.

    - There must be no way to associate a specific ballot with a specific voter (yes, this is the same as "anonymous" above but I feel it deserves special mention).

    - Most importantly, the system must be designed such that its privacy and auditability are *readily apparent* to the *vast majority of voters*. You should not have to have a CS degree to be able to trust that your vote will be counted.

    To me, to meet this criteria, any computerized voting system must print paper ballots which the voter can read and then turn in to a separate vote-counting entity. The system which solicits your vote and prints a completed ballot must be physically and logically distinct from the system which collects your complete ballot and counts it. I don't think open source matters -- if it prints paper ballots and the casting and counting functions are separate, it is easy to audit its accuracy.
  • Open source system (Score:4, Funny)

    by m00nun1t (588082) on Friday February 14 2003, @11:02PM (#5307254)
    (http://www.shopping-cart-reviews.com/)
    The problem with having a voting system based on open source code is we would end up with Cowboy Neal as President.
  • by sanermind (512885) on Friday February 14 2003, @11:10PM (#5307279)
    Normally, I'm not the conspiracy-theory type, tending more towards occam's razor and healthy skepticism, but This article [commondreams.org], on an admitedly rather left-leaning publication, if at all accurate in merely it's factual assertions, disturbs me to no end. And of course, there's no mention in the mainstream media.
  • May not be the biggest problem (Score:3, Insightful)

    by riptalon (595997) on Friday February 14 2003, @11:14PM (#5307289)

    While the use of proprietry software and the lack of a paper trail can't help, the problem appears more fundamental. It you turn elections over to private companies to run, which is really what you are doing if you use these voting machines, there are huge conflicts of interest. Take Senator Chuck Hagel [senate.gov] who won the last two elections, against expectations [bbc.co.uk], where 80 percent of the votes were counted using machines supplied and run by a company he indirectly owned [thehill.com].

    Even if there is no impropriety going on in this particular case, their is certainly the appearance of impropriety. The question of who makes, owns and runs the voting machines appears even more important than the software and proceedures used by them. Rather worryingly the use of exit polls in the 2002 election was almost non-existent [cnn.com], so there was no indepedent check on the results. Potentially the people who control the voting machines control the result of an election [commondreams.org].

  • Root by OwlofCreamCheese (Score:1) Friday February 14 2003, @11:28PM
  • Source code audit in court by poisoneleven (Score:1) Friday February 14 2003, @11:53PM
  • A Poll Worker's Experience with Electronic Voting by bigirondawg (Score:1) Saturday February 15 2003, @12:11AM
  • Attending Libertarian Party of CA convention by zcollier (Score:1) Saturday February 15 2003, @12:29AM
  • We need two things by epcraig (Score:1) Saturday February 15 2003, @12:42AM
  • It can definitely happen by Black Copter Control (Score:2) Saturday February 15 2003, @12:47AM
  • Lotto Machines: The new voting machine. by MDMurphy (Score:1) Saturday February 15 2003, @01:12AM
  • Why bother? by sholden (Score:2) Saturday February 15 2003, @02:17AM
  • check out ... by RussP (Score:1) Saturday February 15 2003, @02:18AM
  • e-Voting (Score:4, Interesting)

    by krouic (460022) on Saturday February 15 2003, @02:33AM (#5307722)
    The company I work for is currently preparing a bid for pilot project that will allow the citizens of the largest Swiss state to vote via Internet and mobile phone, along with the usual paper method.

    The main driver of the project is to increase turnover, especially for young citizen that are supposed to be more prone to vote via these "new" technologies.

    Our (swiss) laws already incorporate specific requirements regarding e-Voting, including the ability to audit the process, the security of the whole system and the secrecy of the votes.

    Swiss citizens usually have to vote or elect several times a year and the voting process is considered as mature, every step being supervised by committees containing members of different parties/lobbying groups.

    The voting registers are held at the local level, and are continuously updated every time a citizen moves in or out of the city, reaches the voting age or dies, and are crosschecked by the higher authority. Voting material and voting cards are automatically sent several weeks in advance to the possible voters, they do not have to register themselves or require anything. So by design, we have no dead people voting or minorities prevented to vote because they did not register themselves due to lack of information.

    e-Voting is considered here as a good thing, as it allows to streamline the counting process and should increase (our low) turnover by not requiring voters to physically present themselves to the voting booth (in some states, the majority of voters already use the generalized absentee (snail mail) voting process).

    I find it quite surprising that a large majority of the US "geeks" has such a mistrust in the electronic vote in particular, and the ability of their authorities to conduct a fair and lawful election in general. Aren't the USA supposed to be the most democratic country in this world ?
    • Re:e-Voting by justiceleague (Score:1) Saturday February 15 2003, @08:35AM
  • GNU.FREE - Heavy-duty Internet Voting (Score:3, Interesting)

    by cowbutt (21077) on Saturday February 15 2003, @04:49AM (#5307958)
    (Last Journal: Friday August 01 2003, @10:00AM)
    It seems as though a lot of work has been put into GNU.FREE [free-project.org], a package to enable Internet voting. I find it particularly interesting that the lead developer has essentially abandoned it after coming to the conclusion that Internet voting cannot be done in a way that's sufficiently safe enough to be entrusted with our democracies (or whatever they are these days...)

    --

  • KeepItSimpleStupid by Anonymous Coward (Score:2) Saturday February 15 2003, @10:36AM
  • Easy Authentication? by citizenc (Score:2) Saturday February 15 2003, @11:10AM
  • Solution by InfinityEdge (Score:2) Saturday February 15 2003, @11:50AM
  • Things you can do to help. by daviddill (Score:2) Saturday February 15 2003, @11:54AM
  • Black Box Voting : Reported on NPR by WayneGayle (Score:1) Saturday February 15 2003, @01:55PM
  • A Good Place to Start, by NeuroManson (Score:2) Saturday February 15 2003, @03:18PM
  • Since when is voting not a right? by AnalogousCoward (Score:1) Tuesday February 18 2003, @05:37PM
  • Face the Real Problem! by SlipJig (Score:1) Wednesday February 19 2003, @09:37AM
  • Re:Trail? by willpost (Score:1) Friday February 14 2003, @09:18PM
  • Re:Trail? by zcat_NZ (Score:2) Friday February 14 2003, @09:20PM
    • Re:Trail? by Doppler00 (Score:1) Friday February 14 2003, @10:07PM
      • Re:Trail? (Score:5, Insightful)

        by zcat_NZ (267672) <zcat@wired.net.nz> on Friday February 14 2003, @11:24PM (#5307315)
        (http://zcat.wired.net.nz/)
        Exit polls are like the canary in the coal mine.

        Your canary's just dropped dead, and you're telling me "well, you know canaries don't always live that long. Perhaps it was just old."

        Times like this I'm glad I live in a country that still has hand-counted paper ballots.

        [ Parent ]
        • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
      • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • Re:I don't like this plan. by geekee (Score:2) Friday February 14 2003, @10:49PM
  • Re:Proprietary voting systems? (Score:4, Informative)

    by Rivabem (312224) on Friday February 14 2003, @11:51PM (#5307370)
    In Brazil we use a computerized voting machine that allowed the last election helded in october to have more than 95% of the votes counted 6 hours after the last voter left the voting section. And in most states 100% of them in less than 12 hours (we some _very_ far cities in some places).

    The system is simply a x86 cpu and mobo, with a 4 to 16 gray tones LCD, a small printer and (in some, this time)a earphone for hearing-impaired voters.

    After the section president inserts the voters id in a terminal, it send the e-ballot a unlock signal and the users is prompted to enter the candidates number (or press BLANK, since here voting is obligatory) and press CONFIRM if the right candidate's name, party number and photo appears on the LCD, or CORRECT if it's wrong. In the last case, the voter will be prompted again.

    After having voted for all the positions in dispute, and confirmed them all, one at a time, a paper with all the votes is printed and showed to the voter, if all his votes are correct, he presses the CONFIRM button another time, and the voting is done. If not, press CORRECT and insert all votes again. If the users press correct, the machine prints "NULL" on the paper.

    The paper trail is now cut, and falls into a black plastic ballot, so in case of recounting, it's there to confirm the numbers.

    In the end of the voting day, a report is printed in each e-ballot, so the section president has automatically the number os voters to any candidate, blank votes and the numbers of abstentions

    In Brazil que voting system is equal nationwide, and the voting sections are separated in electoral districts. In each district, there are 3 e-ballots choosen in a lottery way that are replaced the day before the election, and those 3 ones are used as test ballots, by party affiliates, to confirm that they print exactly the votes that are in the 2 floppys (master and backup) that are used in the counting
    [ Parent ]
  • 19 replies beneath your current threshold.