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Feds Open 'Total' Tech Spy System

Posted by timothy on Sat Aug 10, 2002 04:40 PM
from the what-privacy dept.
Diesel Dave writes "A Wired article reports: 'On Wednesday, the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) will begin awarding contracts for the design and implementation of a Total Information Awareness (TIA) system...The Total Information Awareness program, with its ability to provide persistent storage of everything from credit card, to employment, to medical, to ISP records, is a recipe for civil liberties disaster unless there are provisions for citizens to find out who is looking at their records and to see and correct those records.' The foundation for the omnipotent National ID database has now been laid."
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  • by RedElf (249078) on Saturday August 10 2002, @04:43PM (#4047620) Homepage
    Sometime I want to be heard with my name, other times I'm quite happy to be very anonymous...

    Just think about it, do you really want those horny 16 yearolds at the checkout stand to know who you are while you're picking up the tampons for your wife?
  • This is old news (Score:3, Funny)

    by danny256 (560954) on Saturday August 10 2002, @04:44PM (#4047624)
    Microsoft's passport system has been around for years.
  • Slashdot (Score:1, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 10 2002, @04:44PM (#4047625)
    "The Total Information Awareness program"

    To me, that is Slashdot! I read it 20-50 times a day...
  • Hmmm (Score:1)

    by BlackCobra43 (596714) on Saturday August 10 2002, @04:45PM (#4047631)
    How much time before a company hires a hacker to get into the database and steal all this,a corporation's holy grail? I say a few weeks.
    • Re:Hmmm by Blue Stone (Score:2) Saturday August 10 2002, @05:16PM
  • by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 10 2002, @04:46PM (#4047639)
    Recipe for a YRO article:
    • ooooh this is so like 1984.
    • It's an Orwellian nightmare.
    • Those who sacrfice liberty for temporary blah blah blah
    • How dare they! I'm freeeeeeeeeeeeeee!
    • They'll find out how many Big Macs I eat!
    • Where's my Tin Foil hat.

    Oh, KARMA PLEASE.

  • NSA Authority (Score:1, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 10 2002, @04:48PM (#4047647)
    Isn't the NSA already doing this? Isn't that what it's for?

    "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. " -Ben Franklin
    • Re:NSA Authority by Anonymous Coward (Score:2) Saturday August 10 2002, @04:51PM
      • Re:NSA Authority by LeftOfCentre (Score:1) Saturday August 10 2002, @07:08PM
      • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
    • Re:NSA Authority (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 10 2002, @08:19PM (#4048412)
      No they aren't. Not on americans at least. Do your self a favor and pick up the book 'Body of Secrets'. It is a no bullshit account of what goes on at the NSA. It is amazingly well researched and will fill you in on the fact that the the NSA is prohibited on sying on Americans within America (if you are in another country that is a different matter). If you are sitting down watching Nascar in Nashville and Osama Bin Laden calls you on the phone, NSA procedure is to record that phone call and note that it was Bin Laden, but you are simply identified as 'American Citizen'. If a customer to the NSA, requests to know who 'American Citizen' is, and has due cause, the NSA will reveal it, but this is the extreme circumstance. Oh, and the good part is that politicans never get recorded at all :).

      one other interesting fact, the NSA is exempted from any US law that does not specifically name the NSA....

      Everyone should read Body of Secrets before claiming to know something about the NSA.
      [ Parent ]
  • by guttentag (313541) on Saturday August 10 2002, @04:52PM (#4047670) Journal
    So DARPA is taking a page [google.com] from Google's book. Does the winner get $10,000 in cash, a VIP visit to the Pentagon in Arlington, VA and the possibility of running their prize winning code on DARPA's supercomputers?
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • There are companies that already hold much of this data about purchases. A company called Catalina Marketing [catalinamarketing.com] who makes those little printers that print coupons when you buy things at grocery stores, or pet stores or whatever, already keep track of all purchases, including credit card numbers, checking account numbers, types of items purchesed, frequency, geographic locations, etc. All that data is searchable via a CRM system. Wal-Mart also has that system. People just need to learn that there is no "reasonable expectation" of privacy in any place outside of your own home. Unencrypted email has never been secure, it wasn't designed to be, ISP records are just as open. There never has been "privacy," so I don't know what most of the advocates expect.
  • Most "Total Solution" projects fail (Score:3, Insightful)

    by gentlewizard (300741) on Saturday August 10 2002, @05:00PM (#4047703)
    I've seen it in the 70's with the notion of a Corporate Data Base, in the 80's with Enterprise Resource Management (ERP) systems, and in the 90's with Data Warehouses. It's nice to think of a single source of information providing all the answers, but it inevitably turns out too expensive to build and impossible to keep current. I see no evidence that such a system would have prevented the attacks on 9/11. But some IT infrastructure companies are going to get rich on this boondoggle.

    As a professor of mine in college once said; "Computers make great filing cabinets, but lousy guessers."
  • Like that movie... (Score:2)

    by UnAmericanPunk (310528) on Saturday August 10 2002, @05:00PM (#4047704) Homepage
    It's like Terminator and the Matrix put together... just an early alpha version.
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • Open source is the answer (Score:5, Funny)

    by Andy_R (114137) on Saturday August 10 2002, @05:01PM (#4047713) Homepage Journal
    If the /. community objects to this, the solution is clear... we mount an open source bid for the contract, which should (as the product will be free as in beer) be guaranteed to win the contract on price grounds.

    Then we just 'do a mozilla' and keep adding wonderful new features but never actually deliver the damn thing :-)

    problem solved!
  • What about (Score:2)

    by Apreche (239272) on Saturday August 10 2002, @05:02PM (#4047717) Homepage Journal
    people who live in the "boonies" or homeless people. There are so many US citizens all over the world who have so many different levels of technology and social involvement that they will never be able to get everybody. It will be very easy to avoid getting in this system.
  • Inevitable? (Score:2)

    by Keefesis (70341) <[moc.oohay] [ta] [ohcnapnuahcerpel]> on Saturday August 10 2002, @05:07PM (#4047733)
    Intro: I saw "XXX" a couple of hours ago. I think it was intended solely as an action flick, but for a minute, let's pretend there's a message here. In this life we enjoy freedoms given to us by research and technological improvements, also a few of those freedoms are provided by the organization of government.

    Many times we raise a red flag because of privacy issues, and I agree that the direction we (as a world) are progressing in is sad at times. However, let's put this in perspective for a moment. Regardless of your beliefs in a higher power or lower power, one thing is sure...does it really matter that the government knows what you are up to? Yes we live free lives and I know my concern is that perhaps, in the future I will want to do something underhanded and this system will prevent it...what fun would life be without the challenges? Our lives span only a minute on this world, live in your situation and make life a joy: you're the only one who can do that. You can make a case for any possibility, but does the existence of this database can't interfere with that!

    By the way, do any of you really expect that the government will be able to implement this without people like us helping them? If you have a hand in it, you can control it ;-)
    • Re:Inevitable? by blincoln (Score:1) Saturday August 10 2002, @05:49PM
    • Re:Inevitable? by NoData (Score:1) Saturday August 10 2002, @06:30PM
      • tyrrany? by Unordained (Score:1) Sunday August 11 2002, @07:06AM
        • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
    • 2 replies beneath your current threshold.
  • it's coming... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Dr. Awktagon (233360) on Saturday August 10 2002, @05:10PM (#4047747) Homepage

    Remember folks, the only reason we don't live in an Orwellian nightmare world is actually because it isn't technologically feasible.

    As soon as it's possible and practical, in the next few years, it will happen on a wide and broad scale. If it's unpopular, they'll simply not publicize its use. If a few innocents are harrased by it (activists, anarchists, pagans, atheists, and other similar unAmericans), you won't hear a word. If by some sheer coincidence it actually assists in finding a terrorist pre-crime, they still won't say a word.

    And I'm sure they'll find a few other uses for it. I mean if you're commiting a crime, it's a crime, no matter what, so what's the problem?

    (Hmm, Citizen #95235345 just bought a DVD-R unit and downloaded a copy of DeCSS. Set his Awareness Level to 15%, and send a copy of his Dossier to Media Control for further study. Excellent, we might yet meet our Enforcement quota this week!)

  • heart warming indeed (Score:2, Insightful)

    by lingqi (577227) on Saturday August 10 2002, @05:10PM (#4047748) Journal
    It really makes me feel fuzzy as hell when I think about where my hard-earned tax dollars are going to.

    really fuzzy.
  • by Louis Savain (65843) on Saturday August 10 2002, @05:18PM (#4047776) Homepage
    It funny seeing how people react to the continuing encroachments on their freedom by their chosen government. This reminds me of an old Biblical story about King David ordering that a census be taken of the people (they were all willing participants). God got so pissed off at this blatant and fascist violation of freedom that he sent a nasty plague on them that killed close to 70,000 people. And David was a man after his own heart.

    Moral: you already lost. If you have a social security number or driver license number or anything that allows the government to identify or control you, you are already living in a Big Brother society. Either you go along with it or you do something about it. Whichever you choose, you loose.

    Sorry, but you are all like cattle, tagged with a number. You are not as free as you have been led to believe. No amount of prideful boasts about living in the freest country in the world will change that fact. You are a bunch of deluded slaves working for a central controlling government. And you are paying a lot more in taxes than you can imagine. It's sad.
  • by Psiren (6145) on Saturday August 10 2002, @05:24PM (#4047795)
    ... is a recipe for civil liberties disaster unless there are provisions for citizens to find out who is looking at their records and to see and correct those records.

    Here in the UK we have the Data Protection Act, which all companies must adhere to if they store information about you on their computer systems. Amongst other requirements, it allows you (for a small fee) to obtain a copy of that information on request, and have it modified if it's not accurate. If this does go through, I would hope that the US provides something similar.
    • Not just UK by stephenbooth (Score:2) Monday August 12 2002, @09:46AM
    • 2 replies beneath your current threshold.
  • I went to the page the story links to, the anti-enumeration website.

    I was expecting a well thought out reasoning why we should be avoiding enumeration, but instead what I saw was trife about how we're all going to hell if we have a numbering system.

    oh dear, please, if someones going to post arguements against something, atleast base them in reality, rather then the rantings of a 2000 year old book.

    how unfortunate.
  • nothing to hide (Score:3, Insightful)

    We will get a lot of variations on 'if you have nothing to hide, what are you worried about,' and 'I am just a random nobody, why would anyone even care about my records.' Here is an issue: there is someone out there who could be an important leader for some important change. Maybe ending the insane war on drugs, maybe protecting the freedom of communications made possible by the internet, maybe something else.

    There are government agencies, especially law enforcement, whose existence is threatened by this person. They have full access to the complete records of this persons life: medical problems, personal purchases, friends, lovers (including unmarried ones), etc. To silence this person, they will have the ability to make any embarrassing information public (none of which may even have been illegal). Even if the person has the strength of character to withstand this, the persons message will be lost under the media coverage of the scandalous aspects of this person's life: his pr0n preferences, former friends who turned out to be bad guys, extramarital affairs, etc.

    This type of this has serious implications for free speech. Even if you are a nobody who will never have anything important to say and who has nothing to hide anyway, there are people to have something to say and have the right to keep the private aspects of their lives private while saying it.

  • I have a plan.. (Score:1)

    by Mad Quacker (3327) on Saturday August 10 2002, @05:27PM (#4047812) Homepage
    After 50% of the population is behind bars for "crimes" we can then break out of prison, overthrow the goverment, deliberate for months and make the best goverment on paper that has ever existed, then wait for our great great grandchildren to ignore everything we've said, and let the cycle begin again.

    *Hopeless-half-sarcastic-rant/cry for help*

    No one should live in fear of their government.
    Governments should live in fear of its people.

  • BAA 02-08 (Score:4, Informative)

    by xyzzy (10685) on Saturday August 10 2002, @05:37PM (#4047857) Homepage
    Before the *DIS*information starts flying fast and furious (doh, wait, it already has!) I recommend everyone read BAA 02-08, the request for proposals for technology that will be transitioned into the TIA system. Here is the link:

    http://www.darpa.mil/iao/BAA02-08.pdf

    This BAA describes exactly what RESEARCH DARPA is looking to fund (emphasis on research: DARPA is NOT a procurement agency, and DARPA is NOT an operational agency). They are not buying off-the-shelf systems, and they are not setting up systems to spy on people. There is even a component to this BAA regarding privacy-protecting technologies.

    It is worth noting that many of the problems for which this BAA is looking for national-security-style solutions are problems common to many organizations, as well as fundamental computer-science questions. Not the malevolent stuff that Wired and others would have you think.
    • Re:BAA 02-08 by xyzzy (Score:2) Saturday August 10 2002, @05:39PM
    • Re:BAA 02-08 by whovian (Score:2) Saturday August 10 2002, @07:10PM
      • Re:BAA 02-08 by xyzzy (Score:2) Saturday August 10 2002, @07:17PM
    • Re:BAA 02-08 by Madwand (Score:1) Monday August 12 2002, @06:06AM
      • Re:BAA 02-08 by xyzzy (Score:2) Monday August 12 2002, @06:55AM
        • Re:BAA 02-08 by Nynaeve (Score:1) Monday August 12 2002, @05:13PM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • National IDs (Score:2)

    by guttentag (313541) on Saturday August 10 2002, @05:39PM (#4047865) Journal
    If it's not a supplement to the system supporting the military's relatively new smart card IDs [washingtonpost.com] (32k memory used for storing biometrics, medical records, encryption keys, etc. for access to everything from military installation gates to email cryptography), which some are calling a model for the national ID card, then it's simply a late, competing entry.

    The interesting thing about the military's new IDs is that they're only laminated on one side, which is causing some to wear out. The military's temporary solution is to hand out plastic sleeves in which to store the cards. If a national ID card ever becomes a reality, I would hope they learn from this and remember to laminate both sides. :o)

  • DARPA? (Score:2)

    by dimator (71399) on Saturday August 10 2002, @05:40PM (#4047868) Homepage Journal
    Does anyone else think of Metal Gear Solid when they year the word DARPA?

    Maybe its just me...

  • by HLFat (599888) on Saturday August 10 2002, @05:42PM (#4047876)
    Tommy, can you hear me? That deaf, dumb and blind kid sure plays a mean pinball. ;-)
  • This is truly frightening.

    I was just listening to NPR yesterday and they had a story about a so called communist who was arrested just for being a communist. Basically their is something called the smith act which gives the government the right to arrest anyone if they are involved in a plot to somehow dis assembly the government. Since he was a communist he therefor was against the government and had to be arrested for his dangerous political views.

    Anyway this survelance would be perfect for the FBI to arrest anyone suspected of being against the government. IF you are angry at Aschcroft for example and post to /. about it, then the burden of proof will be against you and will will be circumstantial evidence to prosecute yourself.

    I am sick of 1984 similarities in all these posts but dam.

    Anyway this whole database thing looks alot like totalitarian economics mentioned in the bible that is interpreted by conservatives Christians as when the end of the world or when the anti Christ appears. In that day and age the one world government or the beast made of 12 hears or nations( cough, cough, EU) is when everything will be tracked. Infact you will not be able to buy food or land without approval of the government or the corporations of the time. In the book you need a particular mark to do these things. This could be just facial recognition so the government and big corp to know who you are and what you are doing. Just think of the power of big corps or the government will have. IF you do not agree to an EULA then you starve and die or have no home. Everything will be monitored so if you hate the government or the man of lawlessness their will be no outlet to share your views. Infact the end times described a world filled with greed and the love of money. My guess is we are all heading there right now. Only time will tell when are comments from slashdot are monitored and the FBI starts monitoring our lives because of something we said agaisnt the dmca or big W.

  • the answer (Score:2)

    by GoatPigSheep (525460) on Saturday August 10 2002, @05:46PM (#4047894) Homepage Journal
    There is no better time than now to move to Europe.
  • by Badanov (518690) on Saturday August 10 2002, @05:56PM (#4047922) Homepage Journal
    TIA in Spanish means aunt. S'pose there's some underlying psychology?
  • by Drashcan (113359) on Saturday August 10 2002, @06:04PM (#4047948)
    I think this 100% privacy protection movement is wasting their time by opposing such systems and on the contrary causing more harm than good. In the end the information on our lives resides already somewhere, be it more distributed.


    Instead of shouting constantly "No!" to every system which in principle is meant to defend our lives, freedom, hence our very privacy as well,
    we should instead demand thorough legislation so these databases would not be abused.


    I think this protection of our privacy in anti-terrorism databases is worth an addition to our respective constitutions (indeed, it is not only the USA which is facing privacy dilemma - it is the entire free world!) of the caliber of an Amendement at least.


    Do not forget, democracy is the best of all available political systems but it is also the most cowardous system when it comes to threats which would cost a lot of sacrifice to solve physically, as terrorism is.

  • Funny (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Lucas Membrane (524640) on Saturday August 10 2002, @06:04PM (#4047949)
    This week they admitted that they were not able to process all the reports from paranoid patriots who were turning in their neighbors through the TIPS program, and they were turning tips over to "America's Most Wanted" for investigation. Used to be that Disney gave tips to J. Edgar. Now they are outsourcing it. Collecting lots of data isn't working, so let's do more of it. That's a definition of insanity.

    Speaking of outsourcing, this kind of a plan gives ample opportunity for politicians, bureaucrats and police to outsource wrongdoing. Like we are now outsourcing torture to friendly Arab nations and outsourcing covert operations to Israeli and British intelligence. Mostly, they will outsource the abuses to off-shore dummy corporations funded through US intelligence, but domestic corporations that collect large amounts of data on US residents (note that it is now considered legit for phone companies to track and disclose everyone you dial unless you succeed in opting out, and no one knows what goes on inside lots of commercial software -- why does the MS Excel viewer make my internet connection so busy?)will likely get involved as well.

  • by jjh37997 (456473) on Saturday August 10 2002, @06:07PM (#4047963) Homepage
    The best way to defeat this idea in the court of public opinion is to compare it with the fabled Mark of the Beast (666) from the book of Revelations.

    "He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name. This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man's number. His number is 666" (Rev. 13:16-18).

    Since the Religious Right is the Republicans bread and butter if they can be convinced that such a national database is a tool of Satan it will become too much of a hot potato for them to handle.
  • by gerardrj (207690) on Saturday August 10 2002, @06:10PM (#4047967) Journal
    Lets see... what was the last major governemnt that:

    Tracked information about all its citizens
    Required you to carry federal identifiation whenever you left the house
    Required "papers" for any sort of travel outside of your home town

    And yet here in 2002, we as a nation seem to be jumping for joy that all these things are being talked about and implimented in our country. Yea, it's all supposedly for national defense, but Hitler started his reign by imposing all those rules and ideas for the good of the country. How far will we take it this time?

    Why can't the Fed just look at the easy way out: stop imposing our will on other countries by military force. Just get out of the Middle East and let them fight it out amongst themselves. Problem solved.
  • The golden age (Score:1)

    by digitallis (249804) on Saturday August 10 2002, @06:10PM (#4047968)
    For anyone who hasn't realized it yet, we are currently in the golden age of information.

    The ability of the common man to transfer data around the world is phenomenal right now. People can share media instantly. Transfer speeds are headed through the roof. More important though, is the fact that the governments of the world are not yet fully able to monitor and control this information. The internet is a wild and untamed beast that allows all sorts of politically 'sketchy' people to communicate. As soon as the goverments have build up the infrastructure to control the 'net, they will clamp everyone down. It's not a matter of 'if' but 'when'.

    Enjoy the freedom while you have it. It may not be around much longer.
  • by markprus (83297) on Saturday August 10 2002, @06:18PM (#4048001)
    This excerpt taken from a paper [utexas.edu] written by Dijkstra in 1986 seems very appropriate:

    "...society tolerates the computing profession because of its incompetance. It is our incopetence that makes us, though expensive, relatively harmless: were we as competent as we would like to be, we would offer the perfect implementation of the complete police state. We would be the darling of any dictatorship"

    Food for thought.
  • by j3110 (193209) <samterrell @ g mail.com> on Saturday August 10 2002, @06:19PM (#4048005) Homepage
    This could be just what we need to convince the ignorant sheep out there that they need 4096 kilobit encryption. First place to start is E-Mail and instant messangers. Second place, whether it's legal or not, is the telephone system. That should put a spin on any TIA system. At least anyone that tries will be forced to concentrate effort on only pertinant information. When someone has to put down their donut and drive down to someone's house to spy on them, they can't be doing it to the entire world.

    Hey, then we can block telemarketers and spammers because we won't have their key. Don't forget, you have to physically hand a key to someone in order for it to be truely secure, else you are trusting whoever you hand it to. This only needs to be done for personal calls/email. It isn't very likely that someone will use a business call against you.
  • False Identities, New Identities (Score:2, Interesting)

    by asreal (177335) on Saturday August 10 2002, @06:19PM (#4048007)
    Imagine the market for false identities that will spring up over the next few years and decades as the implications of moves like this are felt by more and more people. There is less and less room to screw up and later reinvent yourself.

    In the past it was possible to create an entirely new life. Criminals, debtors, or just people who wanted to start a new life could move to "The New World" or other countries and begin again. Now, your new home already has a pretty good idea who you are.

    Until the age of direct deposit, it was possible to move somewhere new and get a job that you could be paid for the same day, paying cash for a room in some seedy hotel until you could get a better place. Now, it takes 2-3 weeks before you see your first paycheque, and most hotels require a credit card. Right away it is harder to move around, let alone reinvent yourself.

    Let's look at the example of one famous head of state. He spent the first half of his life screwing around, doing drugs, getting arrested for drunk driving, and wasting Bush Sr.'s money. Suddenly he cleans up his act and buys a baseball team, becomes governor of Texas, and eventually President of the U.S. of A. Good for him.

    Imagine this same kid 20 years from now. (Minus some of daddy's influence, perhaps.) Generally good kid gets into a bit of trouble when he/she is young, but cleans up and decides to get a job working for MS-AOL-Time-Warner-USA. (MATWU for short.) Person goes in for their interview, to face a series of questions, like a normal job interview. After doing quite well, the interviewer says this:

    "You are very well suited for the job. I think you would make an excellent addition to the team. However your ethics do not fit with corporate guidelines. We notice that on your trip to Amsterdam you visited 3 hash bars in a 4 hour period, 1 strip club where you took part in two lap dances and consumed a good deal of alcohol. We also note that you visited Tokyo and stayed for 2 weeks at a VSP resort. Consorting with Vivendi-Sony-Panasonic, perhaps? I'm afraid we cannot hire you."

    Who has never done anything they wouldn't want their prospective employer, prospective friends, prospective mate, or prospective client to know about?

  • Deceptive Editing (Score:1)

    by reallocate (142797) on Saturday August 10 2002, @06:21PM (#4048016)
    For those who don't follow the link to the Wired piece:


    1. the use of ellipses in the middle of the teaser is deceptive. The passage after the ellipses beginning with "The Total Information Awareness program, with its ability to provide persistent storage.." up to the last sentence is not from Wired, but rather a quote from an EFF lawyer included in the piece by Wired.

    2. While it's never wise to trust your privacy to anyone you don't know, much less the government, hysteria seems a but premature. This is clearly an R&D effort.

  • by 3seas (184403) on Saturday August 10 2002, @07:08PM (#4048180) Homepage Journal
    driver ;icense search [shorturl.com]

    What's the best way to protect information?

    Doesn't GNU FSF say it's decentralization of authority?

    All this is really going to lead to is the temptation of abuse.....
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • spurioius reasoning (Score:2, Insightful)

    by g4dget (579145) on Saturday August 10 2002, @07:08PM (#4048183)
    Everytime this comes up, people engage in the same spurious reasoning: they argue that national IDs are the first step towards a privacy-violating database of everything. Folks, whether or not the US government builds a database has little to do with whether we have national ID cards and numbers or not. If we don't, the government is just going to make up another number that you'll never hear about, or they'll just use your social security number. Or do you seriously believe that Ashcroft and the other folks are going to say "oh, they won't let us have national IDs and ID numbers, so we'll just go home"?

    Internal or ad-hoc identifiers are much worse than a public, well-designed system of national ID numbers. Among other things, if you don't know your secret government ID number or record locator, it's much harder for you to force the US government to comply with privacy regulations--even with a court ourder--they'll just claim that they "couldn't find the records" or that they "must have overlooked them" and get away with it even if found out. And if the government makes up their own internal system or uses social security numbers, you are much more likely to be the victim of identity theft or mistaken identity.

    In order to protect our privacy, we need good privacy legislation that covers both government agencies and companies. And in order to protect our privacy, we need a well-designed system of national ID numbers--preferably numbers that are large and have a non-trivial internal checksum. Both of these would have to be decided at the ballot box.

    The reason why this isn't going to happen is because the people in the US that are mainly concerned about privacy are also people with libertarian leanings. They just don't understand that the only way to protect privacy is through strong government regulations.

  • I got it! (Score:1)

    by TrebleJunkie (208060) <ezahurak AT atlanticbb DOT net> on Saturday August 10 2002, @08:13PM (#4048396) Homepage Journal
    mkdir /treblejunkie
    cp /receipts /treblejunkie
    cp /medicalrecords /treblejunkie
    cp /creditreports /treblejunkie
    cp /phonerecords /treblejunkie
    cp /parkingtickets /treblejunkie
    cp /relationships /treblejunkie
    cp /dicksize /treblejunkie
    (copying... copying... still copying....)
    cp /favoritefoods /treblejunkie

    There's how you do it. DARPA, please send me my check. You probably already know my address.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 10 2002, @08:31PM (#4048455)
    Term limits on government offices serve to limit the abuse of power. This concept no longer goes far enough to properly limit abuses of power. Power is now not only held by individuals, but by systems. It is not only government systems, but also corporations and political parties. Changes must be made in our constitution to add checks and balances for these new centers of power made possible by advances in technology.

    Technology has enabled these systems to become effective enough to suggest some form of "term limits" now need to be applied to these systems as well as holders of government offices. These limits will not necessarily take the same form as term limits for individuals, but they are needed.

    The instant it ceases to be possible for the people governed by a government to institute a new government, that government is destined to become corrupt. Naturally, though, a government wants to preserve itself, like any entity. That is one of the reasons why eternal vigilance is required to uphold the rights of the people, vigilance of foreign and domestic threats of those rights, including our own government. The U.S. constitution was written to include the concept of an impermanent government, but with advances in technology, term limits on individual office holders are no longer enough protection to prevent abuses of power.

    Government systems, political parties, and corporations seem to be growing beyond individual control. It is obvious that the rules under which our society functions are now inadequate for the systems now working within our society. It is time to amend the constitution to add checks and balances for the new places where power is being concentrated. If these changes cannot be made through constitutional means, then it is too late for the U.S. government to self-correct and there will be dark days ahead for the U.S.
  • Hmm (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Loki_1929 (550940) on Saturday August 10 2002, @08:35PM (#4048476) Journal
    If this turns out half as bad as it looks, I'm all for a new American Revolution. Worked in 1776, I think it'd work now if we actually educated the public about this bullshit.

    Go ahead and arrest me, Ascroft, you totalitarian son of a bitch, you'll have to do me like you did Padilla; have the military hold me in a brig without bringing charges, 'cause I a'int done a damn thing wrong. Or maybe I should just start looking around for another country. This country is great, but I'm starting to wonder whether the public at large is populated by morons or people too scared to come out of their bunkers. Freedom is something you have to want and want bad. It's incredibly delicate, and we're seeing it torn apart before our eyes. 1984? I don't think so. I'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees. If America is populated by pussies, then just let me know and I'll find another place to live where they actually want their freedom. Sept 11 was an attack on our way of life. Judging by the way things have gone the last 11 months (patriot act, data mining, warrantless arrests, detention of American CITIZENS without a trial/lawyer/grand jury, etc) I'd say they kicked our asses. Cower in the dark if you like, but I will never call you a patriot. I was at the Statue of Liberty today, and it was still closed; you can't go inside. Why? The people of America are too scared to tell Bush to re-open it. What does it say when the people of this country are barred from entering our greatest symbol of freedom? What the hell does that say?

    • Re:Hmm by huckamania (Score:1) Monday August 12 2002, @02:17PM
    • erm, meta Hmm by abulafia (Score:1) Sunday August 11 2002, @02:24AM
    • Re:Hmm by Loki_1929 (Score:2) Sunday August 11 2002, @11:11AM
    • Re:Hmm by Loki_1929 (Score:2) Sunday August 11 2002, @11:13AM
    • Re:Hmm by Loki_1929 (Score:2) Sunday August 11 2002, @11:18AM
    • Re:Hmm by Loki_1929 (Score:2) Sunday August 11 2002, @03:15PM
    • 6 replies beneath your current threshold.
  • It's about political control (Score:2, Insightful)

    by irishkev (457679) on Saturday August 10 2002, @08:38PM (#4048490) Homepage
    The purpose of this is political control, not counter terrorism. Please see this for mroe background and very interesting info on the IAO symbol:

    http://www.cryptogon.com/2002_07_14_blogarchive. ht ml#79173969
  • by Animats (122034) on Saturday August 10 2002, @09:40PM (#4048731) Homepage
    It's been almost a year. Do we have armored doors on every large commercial aircraft yet? No, although El Al has had that for years. Do we have permanent anti-aircraft defenses around key installations like nuclear plants? No, although France does. Do we even know where bin Laden is? No.

    What we do have is way too much cosmetic stuff that pushes the right-wing control agenda. Many arrests, deportations, and secret detentions, but few trials. Talk of a war with Iraq without Congressional approval. More Government secrecy about stuff that has nothing to do with terrorism. Plans for a huge internal security agency, something the US didn't need in WWI or WWII. Talk of using the military for domestic law enforcement. Warships for the Coast Guard.

    Note what we're not seeing - competence at the top. Retired FBI agents write books reporting that FBI HQ is packed with bozos. (The field end of the FBI is generally considered better than HQ.) But there hasn't been a purge at FBI HQ, despite several scandals. Ashcroft is at best a lightweight, but he's still running the Justice Department. The head of FEMA was Bush's campaign manager. Cheney is still in office, despite the Halliburton scandals. These guys are not the team we need to win.

  • Its ok by me, if! (Score:1)

    by Grrreat (584733) on Saturday August 10 2002, @11:08PM (#4049021)
    They don't allow MS to be the operating system its on. And the system is read only with no way at all in to the system. The prosecution of a programmer involved in putting a back door of any kind in the system. No BUFFER OVERFLOWS at all fhoddamit! |-\ Beat me! But I will never give up on my Country 'The United States Of America!" the best coutry in the world, not necessarily the purest people, but the best! Open Sourse Rulez!
  • by the way, what're you (591901) on Sunday August 11 2002, @01:32AM (#4049408)
    Kid (speaking into walkie-talkie): Cancel the operation! They have Tech Spy!
  • Why oh why... (Score:2)

    by symbolic (11752) on Sunday August 11 2002, @03:07AM (#4049606)

    If you look at the record in terms of what information was missed by whom, when, and why, it's pretty evident that little or NONE of it had anything to do with a LACK of information. Most of it was plain old incompetence, or a failure to allocate necessary resource. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that no information "TIA" system is going to do anything to solve that problem.
  • by demo9orgon (156675) on Sunday August 11 2002, @04:20AM (#4049738) Homepage
    In a future coming soon, printed in the "Happy-Fun-Joy-Citizens Entertainment Guide" we'll probably see something like this...
    (MSN) GovHunter (CC)--Law 1:00 344654993213

    (2032)[TV-G]A double-plus-happy episode of this great-plus-happy series the gripping moments when the last less-happy U.S. citizen was run to ground. Includes footage of the happy-joy-embracing, and happy-confession interviews after the re-education and valuation of the person know only as "less-happiest-man". Contains scenes of happy-joy-correction and re-direction/re-education.
    What the citizenry of the United States and the world are going to recieve in the times to come will be a realization that not everything in the world is new when it comes to goals of the greedy and the desire for a risk-free world when government is granted carte-blanc authority to seek it...the idea of marking citizens is so old and so reviled that the cuniform tablets and clay pellets which describe the outrage and abuse have yet to be descovered and properly deciphered...the only active record is in that heniously mis-used book of stories that was once called the Vulgate...basically called it the mark of the beast or something really catchy. In any case, we should all look forward to being citizens of the coming all knowing, all oppressing group of politicians and merchants who will giddly be aware of the daily average of double-ply sheets you press against your nethers and whether or not you're a frontwiper, a backwiper, or a bideist!

    WARNING: Reading the rest of this message is inflamatory, and contraindicated where a lack of education and the in-ability to grasp abstract concepts involving self-dissassociation and viewpoint expression without personalization may produce strong personal actions (flamming) from consumption of the memes within. If this is the case, then there's no reason for you not to go elsewhere. In short, I'm sharing. Have lotsa fun or click "next message".

    Today I had the joy of dealing with a check-out clerk at Toys R Us. They wanted my phone number because I was paying with cash--an archaic "loose cannon" of consumerism.

    I'm the kind of creepy evil bastard that makes women nervous, and children cling to their mommies ;and as such I glared at the clerkdroid from beneath hooded brows(much more acceptable than using his head as a redecorating tool) and asked if it was necessary in order to make a purchase. They said "no", and had that Call Security! look. Hey, I can see Radio Shack keeping a record (probably at the insistence of the government and for convienience when the law comes asking about switches, transmitters, etc)..for all the McGuyver's out there, the Shack is like a candy shop for mayhem, but Toys R Us...shessh. If I had the time to convert (gaming consoles, insertable anthropomorphic toys, and buttloads of chinese plastic) things into weapons of mass destruction I'd probably shop elsewhere--the Defense Department.

    I'm just about to the point where everytime someone who doesn't need my information starts asking for it I'm going to shift into full-on asshole mode and start sounding off with clever stuff, like:

    No! I'm not giving you my phone number! I'm married and you're not pretty enough to make me cheat on my spouse!!

    My what! Hey, you don't work for the government do you!?

    So what are you going to do with my phone number? What purpose does it serve for you to get my phone number just because I bought something?(Be sure to interrupt the clerk with LIAR! every two seconds and then storm out--99.9% of the time, they are lying to your face or simply just don't know)

    My phone number? Hey this isn't (your phone service provider's name here), what does my phone number have to do with the fact I'm buying a pack of GUM!! It's not actually PLASTIC EXPLOSIVES--IS IT?!

    ...and the best one of all...

    Give them the phone number of the office "bitch" of the same gender as yourself, and be sure to automatically nod if they mention a name to try and confirm it for their records. For added effect, tell the clerk they have a nice ass and if you're the only one at the counter, quietly ask if they're doing anything on saturday night. And remember, if they ask for ID, just tell them you rode the bus.

    I look forward to the day when people will start jamming on merchants who can't function without harvesting the customerbase for data-mining, aggregate info peddling, and affiliate deep-tounge kissing across the backend in some bid for the orgiastic-synergistic-ogopolistic golden ring that will somehow give them the gawd's eye view of the feeding-frenzy, button-pushing results of marketing and distribution that may someday grant them the winning formulary of sales on the scale that Disney has somehow mastered for delivering nearly worthless media.

    Better yet, when I'm collecting whatever I'll end up getting for retirement, I'm going to be one evil, mean, and nasty bastard...I'll have the time and the will to picket stores that practice this crap, sit in on juries, and vote...at least until I die from something like diabetes, alzhimers, or cancer. Until that happens, I'll relish the looks of concern, terror, and outrage from so-called public-servants and the merchant-enforcement goons (police). Hell, I might even come to enjoy the sensation of tear-gas...can't smell much now, and it'll really pay off when they start screwing with the crowd--a whole crowd of angry cat-food eating bastards like myself (prescription drugs necessary to sustain life don't leave much room for real-food and when you can't smell, the taste of most things isn't too bad). The way I see it, there's going to be more old pissed off bastards in 15 to 30 years than there has ever been before, so they better get their priorites eet (stuff like mandatory death sentences for picketing, inciting people to action, and free-speech; esp. in the public interest!)soon, and remember the German occupation of France--all the information was already there for the occupation forces of Germany to easily and effectively disarm and contain the citizens. What a great time-saver that was!

    Whew!...where the hell did that all come from...and did someone spike my corporate swill of choice of the moment(diet 12939 is only $.28 a litre right now--we got a great big cola-war, keeping me up through the night...yeah! caffiene's got me running to the lou all the time tonite--cola war...).

  • by Garry Anderson (194949) on Sunday August 11 2002, @04:39AM (#4049763) Homepage
    The Internet has become a tool for government to snoop on their people - 24/7.

    The terrorism argument is a dummy - bull*.

    Ask the Security Services in the UK and US to deny this:

    Internet surveillance, using carnivore or back doors in encryption, will not stop terrorists communicating by other means e.g. face to face, personal courier or steganography.

    Terrorists will have to do that, or they will get caught.

    Perhaps using mobile when absolutely essential, saying - "Meet you in the pub Monday" (human bomb to target A), or Tuesday (target B) or Sunday (abort).

    SURVEILANCE WILL NOT BE ABLE TO STOP TERRORISTS - IT IS SPIN AND PROPAGANDA

    This propaganda is for several reasons, including: making you feel safer - that the government are doing something and the more malicious motive of privacy invasion.

    Government say about surveillance - "you've nothing to fear - if you are not breaking the law"

    This argument is made to pressure people into acquiescence - else appear guilty of hiding something.

    It does not address the real reason why they want this information - they want a surveillance society.

    They wish to invade your basic human right to privacy.

    This is like having somebody watching everything you do - all your thoughts, hopes and fears will be open to them.

    All your finances for them to scrutinize - heaven help you if you cannot account for every cent when they check on your taxes.

    Do not believe the lies of Government - even more money spent on these measures will not protect you from terrorists.

    P.S. On the Domain Name System, Corporations steal words that belong to everybody - abridging what words you can use - violating the First Amendment.

    The Corporations illegally abuse and expand their brand using domain names - above all smaller businesses who use similar words - violating Competition Law.

    The authorities LIE - they know how to make trademark domains unique and totally distinctive, as the LAW requires trademarks to be. Please visit the World Intellectual Piracy Organization [wipo.org.uk] - not connected with United Nations WIPO.org !
  • by squidinkcalligraphy (558677) on Sunday August 11 2002, @05:39AM (#4049853) Homepage
    Did no-one else see the logo at DARPA's IAO website [darpa.mil]? Either the conspiracy is about to be exposed; or they're taking the piss ;)
  • by 1010011010 (53039) on Sunday August 11 2002, @09:17AM (#4050165) Homepage

    The problem with this system is that it's one-way transparency. We are transparent to them (the people in power who will have access to this system), but they are not tranto us. If I can get a list of who has looked at my records, and then look at their records -- in the same level of detail that they gained about me -- then I won't have as much of a problem with it. Reciprocal transparency will make it more fair, and help alleviate abuses. If Senator Porkbarrel's office investigates me, and I can investigate them right back, then they might think twice about using it.

  • by NobleSavage (582615) on Saturday August 10 2002, @05:53PM (#4047912)
    Have you ever watched the news? Read a news paper? Taken US history 101? Corporations will be lining up around the block to do this. What has ever stopped a corporation from doing something profitable, but unethical? Answer: nothing, after they run the numbers and figure the profits are greater than the negative pr. Cisco didn't hesitate to take a multi million dollar contract to install a fire wall surrounding China... Despite corporate lip service, share holder value is the first priority. It's called Capitalism
    [ Parent ]
  • by xactoguy (555443) on Saturday August 10 2002, @06:03PM (#4047947)
    Actually... that quote is by Benjamin Franklin, not Thomas Edison. ( as posted earlier, and from this [pennsmart.com] and most likely other websites.
    [ Parent ]
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • Re:Chill Out (Score:1)

    by NobleSavage (582615) on Saturday August 10 2002, @06:20PM (#4048011)
    Except that one little project that we now call the "Internet".
    [ Parent ]
  • by Qrlx (258924) on Saturday August 10 2002, @06:29PM (#4048052) Homepage Journal
    To paraphrase the AC:

    The only people who are worried about these types of programs are the ones with something to hide

    The fact that an AC said this deserves either a +1 Ironic or -1 Ignorant. Unfortunately you didn't include any sarcasm tags to help us decide.
    [ Parent ]
  • by DraKKon (7117) on Saturday August 10 2002, @07:53PM (#4048338) Journal
    heh... hit the wrong link.. whoops.
    [ Parent ]
  • by Raiford (599622) on Saturday August 10 2002, @09:25PM (#4048681) Journal
    Alternatively you could illegally build microwave jamming devices at : 13.56 MHz, + 1,356 MHz +- many freqs (TI-RFid) and a few others. but your brain would possibly cook over time, as it now known as of this year that the three harmonic resonances of water are not the only chemical actions harming human tissue at gigaherz frequencies.

    HMM, wonder what RF engineer builds microwave devices operating at the VHF/UHF bands

    [ Parent ]
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  • Re:Weakling (Score:1)

    by Diesel Dave (95048) on Sunday August 11 2002, @12:33AM (#4049267)
    Freemen own weapons. Slaves don't.

    End of argument.

    [ Parent ]
  • Interesting essay. It was written by Derek Copold. The A.C. poster probably got it from here [thetexasmercury.com].

    Anyway, I don't think our govt is really worried about "lonely philosophers." Even in the book Brave New World, Watson was allowed to go into exile in the Faulkland Islands. And though Nietzsche may have recommended "turning inward", his most popular work begins with Zarathustra leaving his isolated mountain and attempting to share his ideas with other people.

    Exactly how tyrannical things are going to get is anyone's guess at this point. The trends are certainly discouraging. But effective, appropriate forms of opposition will come from people (including a few formerly lonesome philosophers) who are willing to organize.

    I don't share Copold's pessimism. Not only is "meaningful change in the world" possible, trying to bring it about is a hell of a lot more fun than the deep introspection Copold recommends.

    [ Parent ]
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