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Unique ID Codes for CD / DVD Manufacturers 265

Posted by timothy from the isn't-the-free-market-over-there dept.
terrymr writes: "The movie & recording industry are lobbying hard for the European Union to require all CDs & DVDs to carry unique source identifiers to aid in combatting piracy. They are also demanding tougher penalties for infringers. It seems the only people who would be hit by the ID code requirement would be the legitimate manufacturers as the pirates simply wouldn't bother."
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Unique ID Codes for CD / DVD Manufacturers More

Unique ID Codes for CD / DVD Manufacturers

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  • "feeds a growing black economy in which criminal networks use piracy to fund other activities such as drug dealing, arms trading, money laundering and terrorism."

    Well...I guess this could also give Microsoft some ammunition with their claims about not being able to release the source code of certain Windows components (including the Intellectual property protection stuff) due to threats of national security. Seems that copying and file sharing really is terrorism.

    Anyone have any solid facts (or at least a little more substantial than these whisps of smoke) about music and movie piracy supporting terrorism and terrorists?

    • Show me where drugs help fund terrorism.

      Heroin yes, it comes from the region where our (USA's) enemies are from. They may profit from drug trading.

      Coccaine - No! Coke profits go to... you guessed it! Drug lords. Their interests are greed and their enemy is their own government.

      Pot - crazy! Much pot (that I've seen or smoked) comes from my own state. Grown and sold here. So who are these terrorists?

      Geez, at least the right wing has someone to distract us from what they are really doing.
      • Coccaine - No! Coke profits go to... you guessed it! Drug lords.

        Maybe you should read a little bit more about the Columbian drug lords. They aren't funding attacks in the US, but what they do to maintain control of the drug fields looks like terrorism to me. Kidnappings, assasinations, bombings, etc. Of course, the right wing paramilitaries do some of the same things, so I guess you could say Plan Columbia funds terrorism as well. I don't have an axe to grind on this issue, but it bothers me when people ignore evidence to make a political point.

        As far as pot goes, I agree 100%. But haven't some of the domestic whacko groups funded themselves through homegrown crystal meth labs?

        It shouldn't be suprising that lawbreakers do illegal things to make money.

        • I forgot about Meth, honest.

          About the Coke it's not terrorism it's a war.

          The Drug Lords are bad guys but so is the gov't. I didn't forget or ignore that fact.

          We just make it worse because we are starting the next arms race there.

          Instead of fighting drugs at home we are trying to take it down south.
          • About the Coke it's not terrorism it's a war.

            Every terrorist out there believes he/she/it is a soldier in some war or another. You are confusing a situation with one of the tactics used by parties in that situation.

    • "feeds a growing black economy in which criminal networks use piracy to fund other activities such as drug dealing, arms trading, money laundering and terrorism."

      I'm sure it happens - the simple fact is these organizations need money and will do whatever illegal activity is neccassary to fund their operations, or whatever can make them the most profit... but here is the sticking point. How much do you think these people realy make of of pirated software? MOst of the stuff I have seen sells for 4-5$. Not really a big deal when you consider other likely sorts of income - drug dealing (I believe a 1kg of cocaine fetches 100,000$ anymore) extoration, blackmail, etc. Can you see Tony Soprano talking about their new 'cd pirating scheme?' Consider the taliban/al qaeda (sp?). Most of the funding for those two organizations (besides legit taxes) occured from A.) Opium B.) Donations from wealthy businessmen - Oil Money. Never forget, the vast majority of funding for most middle eastearn terrorist groups is from oil. Remember that the next time you go to fill up the SUV.

      This is probably just FUD. Most of the people doing this are people who are just trying ot earn a quick buck, but this doesn't preclude the possibility of it happening. Anymore it seems that you throw the word 'terrorist' into anything and you have a good chance of getting people to side with you.
      • Of course the "vast majority of funding" for President Bush was from oil too, at least as far as his campaign went.

        So you drive a strong point... filling up your SUV can have drastic effects on the world political situation and indirectly or directly aid positions of world power regardless of their intent.
    • I think the idea that piracy funds drug dealing is one that is easily dismissed, given that world wide drug dealing is a far larger business than all of the movie and music biz combined.

    • Anyone have any solid facts (or at least a little more substantial than these whisps of smoke) about music and movie piracy supporting terrorism and terrorists?


      Of course not. Terrorism is the new Devil, and trying to make the populace hate and fear the things you oppose, is an age-old practice.

      Off topic, but of note was Chaney's (was it Chaney?) warning about new terrorist attacks. The US government have found the perfect excuse to push their own people and those of other countries around: "We must fight terrorism!". Chaney is just keeping the ball rolling. "We are at war with Eurasia. We have always been at war with Eurasia". Shades of 1984; Orwell alreay knew that a war is the best way to keep your own people in line. "War on drugs" didn't cut it, war on terrorism seems to, and everyone with an agenda, including media companies, are jumping on the bandwagon.
      • And I have to confess that Cheney's credibility took a major dive as it was revealed that he asked on more than one occasion that there NOT be any investigation into what information was available to whom prior to the 9.11 attacks. I think Cheney has managed to confuse "CYA" with "CIA". Just the same, I hope this exposes whatever incompetence contributed to this mess.
    • AFAICT, all known Al Quaida computers use Windows. Surely this is evidence enough that Bill Gates is sponsoring terrorism?

      Penguins want to be free

  • Ha! (Score:5, Insightful)

    by warmcat ( 3545 ) on Sunday May 26, 2002 @05:51AM (#3586521)
    To back up their demands, the media groups claim that counterfeiting and piracy of copyrighted works "feeds a growing black economy in which criminal networks use piracy to fund other activities such as drug dealing, arms trading, money laundering and terrorism."

    Yes, that is why all those movies are out on Usenet and IRC, to fund terrorism.

    When I read last Friday's story about watermarking on all ADCs, I went and joined the EFF [eff.org]. People have a lot of inertia with these stories, they disapprove but find it hard to get worked up. At some point it will become so anti-libertarian, all in the name of protecting the exploitation of artists by a giant parasitic maggotlike managerial structure, that you will feel the cold restrictive hand on your shoulder day by day.

    Consider joining the EFF or a similar organization today, to help them keep our freedoms on our behalf.

  • This is just a silly, stupid idea.

    Why ask the law makers? Shouldn't they be asking Philips (and Sony) and Toshiba (Sony and more) anyways? They are the ones who own the IP.

    Why is it they can dictate the market...? Just because of piracy?

    Can I make a statement without asking a question?

    So let me get this straight. I come up with an idea and patent it (sorry guys). It really helps an industry for years, they make billions of dollars. Suddenly my patented idea is one part of a ten step piracy process and they come along and make me change it?

    Fuck them... come up with your own idea ??AA. Considering that Philips and Toshiba (Sony and more) came up with technology they should dictate the terms... but that isn't happening.

    ??AA needs to just die or come up with their own methods of selling us their crap.
    • Why ask the law makers?
      It's simple. They want the next step for all players to refuse to play anything without an ID. It's got to be pirated, right?
      For them to accuse non-ID stuff from being pirate stuff and force indi artists to contract with a big shop, they need to make sure all material is released with a registered ID. (registered ID's are sold to cover administration costs of course)

      Personaly, I think the lawmakers should give the major labels the permission to use the ID's for their own stuff. However requiring other businesses to use it should be left to the decision of the other businesses.

      In other words (in geek terms) It's up to Intel to use a CPUID if they want. They should not be required to have AMD use a CPUID. MS may use a Global User ID for their software, but they should not require Red Hat have one as well.
      Network cards have a MAC address. It's the spec for the protocol. RIAA do not own the CD protocol. Philips does. It should be Philips decision, not some government pushed by special intrest groups.

    • Actually, I think you've got a point. Let the **AA come up with some other media format all their own, which relies on a cheap proprietary player also of their own. So both the player and the media it uses are entirely their own invention.

      Then if they can't prevent people from copying, it's their own damn problem. Not the consumer's problem, not the rest of the tech industry's problem, not Congress's problem, but THEIRS. And the **AA alone will be responsible for "fixing" it if they think it's too vulnerable to copying.

      Which of course it would be, but that's not our problem.

  • Let me guess (Score:5, Funny)

    by GigsVT ( 208848 ) on Sunday May 26, 2002 @05:52AM (#3586523) Journal
    They will put these unique IDs somewhere on the edges of the disk. Where's my sharpie? :)

    • They will put these unique IDs somewhere on the edges of the disk.

      How do you know? There's a whole lot of empty space in the headers of a CD, reserved for things like this [google.com]. Karaoke discs also use the subcode channel.

      Where's my sharpie? :)

      A SHARPIE® fine point permanent marker will not help you if the new standard stores the serial number in the subcode rather than in a separate session like key2audio does.

      • A SHARPIE® fine point permanent marker will not help you if the new standard stores the serial number in the subcode

        No, but using a DVD would. The DVD spec leaves out the subcode channels, according to this. [discusa.com] And supposedly they're going after both CDs and DVDs.
    • So let's assume these things get popular. No one really cares because they're easy to defeat.

      Let them get popular until all cd's have them.... then institute one far harder, maybe impossible to crack. Then we're up shit's creek because the public has accepted copy protection already.

  • What about Philips? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by neksys ( 87486 ) <grphillips AT gmail DOT com> on Sunday May 26, 2002 @05:52AM (#3586524)
    It seems Philips dislikes this type of activity, and has gone so far as to disallow copy-protected CDs from using the "Compact Disc" logo. Given that they're based in the EU, I suspect they have a pretty powerful lobby there as well. I sincerely doubt that the EU would risk losing the support of one of the biggest electronics producers around - after all, one of the selling points of the European Union is that it is "business oriented". Losing the support of a major player like that is a bad business decision.
    • They're talking about having every CD manufacturing plant put a plant ID into every CD they make, so that illegal CDs can be traced to the plant where they were manufactured.
      • I'm aware that its not copy protection, I was just using that as an example to illustrate that Philips drops the "CD" logo from any standard that deviates from their official standards. It seems that adding ID numbers to the CD's would do this.

  • The Nice part (for them) (Score:4, Insightful)

    by oolon ( 43347 ) on Sunday May 26, 2002 @05:52AM (#3586527)
    Current damages are based on how much money people make on selling the stuff. However they want that changed to the full retail price... which allows companies to set there own damages by overinflating the value of their software then giving everyone a discount.

    Have a copy of 2000 Enterprise server, your why not just give your house to Bill!

    James
    • Current damages are based on how much money people make on selling the stuff. However they want that changed to the full retail price... which allows companies to set there own damages by overinflating the value of their software then giving everyone a discount.
      Have a copy of 2000 Enterprise server, your why not just give your house to Bill!

      The only way this allows companies to "set their own damages" is if they want to set the retail price so high that no one else will buy it. Retail price is a fairly specific number, it's the amount charged to a regular buyer in stores. It's not like a company could sue and then claim the retail price is $5000 when the software is selling in the store for $50. What this does is allow them to actually sue for the money the lost. The problem is that if they sell the pirated software cheaply, the damages will be relatively small, even though it may have cost the company a much larger amount of money. It also takes into account P2P system, where people aren't making money off of it, but they are still breaking the copyright.
      • Ok Office Xp recommended retail is something like 400 pounds, no one ever pays that figure,
        200 and most.

        Office 97 can be bought legally for 50 pounds here, but companies would probably claim it is worth the same ammount as Xp...

        Not unlimited but hay but not bad...

        James

      • What this does is allow them to actually sue for the money the lost.

        How do you figure that? You just ASSUME that someone who bought a pirate copy of Win2K Advanced Server would buy the "real thing" in the absence of pirate availability? There ARE alternatives [redhat.com], alternatives [debian.org], and (one more time) alternatives [freebsd.org].

        The problem is that if they sell the pirated software cheaply, the damages will be relatively small, ...

        The measure of damages for copyright infringement is disgorgement of the revenue (not profit) wrongfully gained for a reason. It's the same reason that pirated software is cheaper than the "genuine article." The pirated product is regarded (with good reason) as what economists call an "inferior good."

        When you install that "\/\/4r3z" copy of a program, you have no idea what ELSE you are getting (viruses, trojans, spyware).

        Another reason that disgorgement is the remedy is because there is no way that a copyright holder can PROVE that the purchasers of "\/\/4r3z" would have bought the real "thing." After all, there ARE alternatives [openoffice.org], alternatives [sun.com], and (need I say it again?) alternatives [koffice.org].

        even though it may have cost the company a much larger amount of money.

        The bigger issue here is one of the cost of enforcing the copyrights. It is a law of economics that sellers will seek to externalize all of their costs that they possibly can. By criminalizing technologies that CAN be used to infringe copyrights, they push the cost of protecting their property onto the (vastly non-infringing) public. Frankly, I do NOT own or use pirated software. Hell, I RARELY use non-OSS software at ALL. Microsoft, et al, forcing me to pay taxes so the government will shield them from the cost of protecting their software from piracy is, in my case, nothing less than a transfer payment to a company I have chosen NOT to do business with since about 1998.

        It also takes into account P2P system, where people aren't making money off of it, but they are still breaking the copyright.

        If Microsoft, the MPAA and the RIAA want to shut down P2P, let them. Let them pursue every little pissant pirate they want to on their OWN nickel. I have (largely) opted out of their system. Let them stay the HELL out of my pocket and out of my PC.

  • I do not see how this would not degrade quality (Score:3, Interesting)

    by dario_moreno ( 263767 ) on Sunday May 26, 2002 @05:53AM (#3586530) Journal

    if waterproofing is able to survive, say,
    a MP3 192 kbit/s rip, I suppose that the
    waterproofing of CDs can be heard on
    normal Hifi gear. Let's go back to vinyl or tape then...

  • To my knowledge, it is still possible to pay
    in cash for a CD or a DVD ...only the higher
    denomination euros banknotes carry identification
    tags, and certainly not the coins !

    How could they trace what happens next ?

    • Re:what about cash ? (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Art Popp ( 29075 )
      Yes, cash will work for a while.

      Sadly,when the industries feel is it their right to uniquely label and track these things they'll feel it's their right to watermark more and more thoroughly until, as others have suggested, the quality is barely better than VHS tapes. Before that occurs they'll have come up with mathematically unique IDs that use some variation public key exchange to verify their authenticity to the player. Players that don't require this, will the "tools of terrorism" etc. etc. The real pirates will breeze through all these safeguards like they don't exist, and the only net effect will be higher costs and lost civil liberties.

  • Hey, I'm all for it (Score:3, Insightful)

    by g4dget ( 579145 ) on Sunday May 26, 2002 @06:03AM (#3586545)
    Windows and Office are only as widely used as they are because many people either pirate it or get it thrust upon them with their PC. If they actually had to shell out $500, you can bet many people would switch to OpenOffice on Linux.

    So, I'm all for the BSA enforcing Microsoft's licensing rigorously. Together with the antitrust and un-bundling pressure on Microsoft, this may lead to a more competitive market again.


    • My company only supplies business customers. When friends need computers, I take them to a regular dealer. I discovered that it is possible to buy a pirated copy of MS Office for $50.

      It would be VERY easy for Microsoft to find all the pirates. (I have no trouble finding them, and I'm not looking.) The fact that they don't is the reason that there is no other word processor. Lotus WordPro is dead. Word Perfect is experiencing very slow sales. Other companies can compete at $500; they cannot compete when the $500 product is also sold at $50.
    • On the other hand, considering that most people don't consider Office to have been drastically improved since Office 97, they may continue to use their old pirated versions and Microsoft is none the wiser for it.

  • dangerous detail (Score:5, Insightful)

    by g4dget ( 579145 ) on Sunday May 26, 2002 @06:08AM (#3586554)
    "Currently some courts may assess damages on the money that a counterfeiter has made," said Peets, "so a counterfeiter with a compilation of software worth $10,000 on one DVD but who sells it for $10 may be fined on the basis of that $10 profit."

    This is a tricky and dangerous detail. Right now, if Microsoft rips of a GPL program, they may get penalized based on the money they have made from it. Under these proposed rules, Microsoft could rip off GPL programs with impunity because their penalty would be nil (since the GPL retail price would be zero). This is clearly not acceptable.

    If we are going to have penalties on copyright infringement, they should be based on a percentage of the net worth of the infringer, not on some imaginary retail value dreamed up by a marketing department. That way, the penalty is comparably painful to whoever infringes.

    • Your company has an improperly licensed copy of windows somewhere, and the BSA "raids" you.

      Some corporate weasel..er, lawyer decides that while that copy is usually $80, in some obtuse set of circumstances, its retail value would be $100,000. In other words, they get to decide just how much the fine will be.

      • Is there any reason you think any self respecting court would actually go along with this?

        Even with some of the more ludicrous judgements in the past, why would a court believe that something retailing for $80 could suddenly be worth $100,000?

        • Well, the question is a good one, so I won't ridicule you for asking it. But the answer may not be as reasonable as either of us would like, mind you.

          First, there is the element of whether there are many "self-respecting" courts left in this country. Plus, the fact that M$ judge shops whenever it can. Add the two together.

          Then, you have scenarios where it approaches (but doesn't reach) plausibility that there might be a big difference. For instance, the walmart price might be $80, but if the illegitimate copy bumped you over a 50 seat limit, for instance, M$ might be able to claim that they tend to get much more for a contract of that size. How much more could they claim? I dunno, maybe not much more. Maybe alot.

          The point was, they have more leeway to decide what the fine would be, rather than it being fixed.

      • in some obtuse set of circumstances, its retail value would be $100,000.

        Such circumstances already exist in the United States of America. Copyright law, 17 USC 504 [cornell.edu], provides for statutory damages of up to $150,000 per work infringed.

    • Re:dangerous detail (Score:3, Interesting)

      by thogard ( 43403 )
      Big compaines already rip off the GPL and
      don't pay.

      For example gnu tar and gnu zip are included
      in 3com's (a supporter of DMCA) NBX 100 but they don't supply souce for thouse programs nor the stuff they are linked to (which is 99% of the operational code). Why should they care if they break the law?

      MS version 5 had the same set of peep hole optimization bugs as GCC. It could happen by chance.

      • Re:dangerous detail (Score:3, Informative)

        by prizog ( 42097 )
        Hi. I investigate license violations for the Free Software Foundation. Can you send me information about these possible violations? You can mail license-violation@gnu.org, and I will look into them. While we don't act vindictively in license violations, we do get them resolved.
    • Why not just fine based on either money earned from the rip or cost of the item ripped, whichever is higher. That would discourage a lot of piracy and also keep large megacorps like MS from borrowing GPL code.

  • Great, what will this do? And what SHOULD they do? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by fortinbras47 ( 457756 ) on Sunday May 26, 2002 @06:12AM (#3586564)
    A cd pirate goes to Virgin records, buys a cd, and pays in cash. He goes home and starts making copies...


    I really don't see what putting an ID code is going to do here. Sony music traces pirated CD key to Virgin records... what then?


    The only way I think it could be useful is if you have readers/cd players which also keep track of the keycode, maybe are hooked up to the Internet etc.. and report you...


    I think it's an interesting question, if you were the HEAD of a record company what would you do? If you embraced the Internet and mp3s, are you a visionary or are you just openning yourself to rampant piracy and going to get burned? Does copy-protection technology actually work? or does it only play into Orwellian fears? I've thought about it at times, if you had the intellectual property rights to all of Frank Sinatra's songs for example, what do you do??????

    • "A cd pirate goes to Virgin records, buys a cd, and pays in cash. He goes home and starts making copies...
      I really don't see what putting an ID code is going to do here. Sony music traces pirated CD key to Virgin records... what then?"

      You are assuming that your transaction is anonymous.
      If you are paying cash thats probably true. But id you are paying by credit card the transaction is date stamped etc, Its not hard to correlate the sale with a particular credit card. And thats just with current techniques, it would not require much to add the SID code to the barcodeand that gets tagged with crdit card number and you
      have to do almost no work to find out who bought the CD. Then add a watermark to each track which has the SID and voila if a track is ripped and
      put on your fave p2p network they know who ripped it. Whhich is the real
      goal here. If they were just interested in finding manufacturers they would not need a SID just a manufacturere number.


      oooh!! do you think they may be lying?

      • The transaction would probably have to be anonymous.

        In the UK, and many countries of the EU, storing trackable information about an individual is covered by law. In the UK we have the Data Protection Act. It strictly limits what you can do with such data (even IP addresses are considered 'personal data' - our company had to abandon a project because of the legal ramifications of storing simple usage history on one of our servers), and disclosing it to third-parties (RIAA or equiv (PRS probably).) is *not* one of the things you can do with it.

        Most stores simply wouldn't do this - it's not worth the hassle (and lost sales) to them. You'd have to make it illegal not to to keep this data (is is the situation with TVs and Videos in the UK) which would require additional legislation in every member state of the EU (otherwise you'd just buy mail-order) and would take years.

    • if you had the intellectual property rights to all of Frank Sinatra's songs for example, what do you do??????

      Auction them off on eBay as fast as I could.
    • I really don't see what putting an ID code is going to do here. Sony music traces pirated CD key to Virgin records... what then?

      If someone pays by check or credit card, or is recorded with facial recognition, the record company can trace the CD to its original owner.

      When I was in college, people had CDs stolen from their cars all the time. I can easily picture someone stealing CDs and posting them on the internet. In this situation, the record company will track down and accuse an innocent person.

    • Not designed to stop small-time rippers (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Wesley Felter ( 138342 ) <wesley@felter.org> on Sunday May 26, 2002 @01:58PM (#3587511) Homepage
      The idea here is to be able to trace a CD back to the plant where it was manufactured, so that large-scale pirates can be stopped.
  • They have to legislate for something that CD/DVD makers should be doing on their own initiative, for their own good?

    They can't track it back to the actual purchaser, instead they'll just know that Best Buy Store #768 sold it to an anonymous pirate?

    In the EU, you don't have to be a law enforcement organization to carry out a search order?

    The courts will assume you actually own the copyright just because you claim to, so that you can file false claims against someone just to fuck with them?

    They're suggesting giving police powers to the the alleged victims? ("more powers by copyright holders to seize and preserve evidence of piracy")

    Remind me not to visit europe anytime soon.

    • They have to legislate for something that CD/DVD makers should be doing on their own initiative, for their own good?

      Very much as in the US. Ask your friendly Senator Fritz Holling and many other that are either stupid or dishonest. Remember, it is the US that already passed the DMCA.

      In the EU, you don't have to be a law enforcement organization to carry out a search order?

      In the US you don't have to be a law enforcement office to conduct a software audit on anyone and impose your fines at their leisure.

      The courts will assume you actually own the copyright just because you claim to, so that you can file false claims against someone just to fuck with them?

      Ask any musician in the US about Sonny Bono and "work for hire". Just be ready to run real fast.

      They're suggesting giving police powers to the the alleged victims? ("more powers by copyright holders to seize and preserve evidence of piracy")

      The US is already way ahead in this area [bsa.org]

      Remind me not to visit europe anytime soon.

      Right. Stay in the US, where personal freedom is sacred and nobody would allow corporations to take away their rights.
      I'm not sure if your a troll. If you are, bon apetit; if you're not, well, try to get out more.

  • This looks more and more like the prohibition (Score:5, Insightful)

    by musicmaster ( 237156 ) on Sunday May 26, 2002 @06:24AM (#3586575) Homepage
    The main example provided by the Motion Picture Association is a "DVD-R factory" that produced Spider Man and Star Wars copies.

    But this is not a factory with professional DVD-burners. This is just a guy who bought 30 DVD-writers at the computer shop around the corner - just as you and I could do. I am afraid that some day we will end with a unique ID on our DVD and CD writers at home just to protect the copyrights.

    Just as with the prohibition in the 1930s we have here laws that are far outside acceptance by the general public. All those measures won't stop the main problem (in this case: overpriced CDs) and in fact it only helps the mob.
    • All colour photocopiers and laser printers on the US market encode the unit's serial number in a watermark in the colour dithering pattern. This is by agreement with the US Secret Service, to allow counterfeit currency to be traced.

      This would give a lot of ammunition to those who want CD/DVD burners to embed their serial numbers on discs. In fact, with technology having advanced further since the colour photocopier agreement, the RIAA/IFPI's standards for DVD burner watermarks could contain other information (such as GPS coordinates, for example).

      • All colour photocopiers and laser printers on the US market encode the unit's serial number in a watermark in the colour dithering pattern.

        I'd like to see some links on this.

        the RIAA/IFPI's standards for DVD burner watermarks could contain other information (such as GPS coordinates, for example).

        How would the DVD Player get it's GPS coords? It's in a metal housing, in a metal computer case, in a building.

    • The only enforceable laws are the ones that the people agree to. Good government is for, by, and of the people. Bad government is not, and results in crime, and sometimes, revolution.

      Chuck D.: "Fuck Hollywood"
  • this does not combat the rampant internet piracy of music that they are talking about so much.

    Ok, i buy a cd. it has an id number embedded in it. when i duplicate the disc, that disc has the same id number embedded. but if i rip the cd to mp3 or wav or whatever, and then re-burn it, no more id number. just a little bit more work to duplicate the cd. you make that new version your master, and send that one to duplication.

    Besides, when was the last time you bought a duplicated cd? This kind of piracy pretty much died when mp3 came of age anyway.
    • It doesn't even combat commercial piracy.

      All it will show is that "pirate" bought their copy of the CD/DVD from Blockbuster HMV etc.

      Although this could be amusing if they start trying to clamp down on Blockbuster for supplying "perfect digital masters" to pirates.

  • There are no enforcible control points (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Subcarrier ( 262294 ) on Sunday May 26, 2002 @06:51AM (#3586611)
    Whether you choose to apply [copy]right to copying or distribution, in the end it does not matter. It is a question of having a control point. Which simply does not exist. Either you try to stop copying in the devices that can make digital copies (any gadget with a CPU or a DSP on it) or you try to find a point in the distribution chain where you can stop the distribution (such as a directory maintained by companies like Napster or AudioGalaxy).

    The problem in either case is that the potential control points are beyond reach of national legislation. Sure, you can impose restrictions on digital devices and try to prevent imports of devices that break those restrictions. However, this is not enforcible internationally. All it takes is a single digital copy that finds its way into the Internet. Once the first copy has been made, it can be distributed en masse.

    Then it becomes a question trying to find the control point for preventing its distribution. This is even more hopeless. Sure, you can go after the Napsters of this world but that won't stop the distribution. People will just find other ways to share and you can't go after every citizen who does so. It would simply be infeasible.

    So, let the legislators have their little dreams. They are fighting against wind mills.

    The movie industry will be the next one to feel the cold winds. Pretty soon full movies will be as convenient to swap as mp3's are today. While people will still go to theaters to see the movies on wide screen, VHS and DVD rentals and sales will suffer. Sill, record breaking mega budget movies may soon be a thing of the past, too.

    In the end, I think, the non-copyable and non-distributable commodity is the artist itself. No-one can duplicate the creativity of a person. Hopefully this will eventually lead to the artists having more control over their works. The business model certainly could be envisioned and it would be more artist-to-consumer without unnecessary middle men.
    • Technology created this market. Movies, CDs, and any other form of distributable media. Who do these people think they are trying to capitilize on media that is defunct. "Your market is over!!!!" What once was free and the was mass distributable is now free again... nothing has changed except you.. you're like the gir/boy friend who didn't know when to move on...

      get a real business model!!! one which isn't all aboot preying on the talented and the ignorant.

      If you can't do that, you are all real losers and you really should consider shooting your selves in the fuckin' head... if not, welcome home!!
    • However if you have the law, you have the power to victimise anyone who you don't like. And if the laws are crap then people are victimised for immoral reasons. I can envisage some close future political media event going like so:

      So Candidate xxxx, in 2003 you were in posession of PIRATED material and thus supported terrorist groups blah blah blah.

      It wouldn't matter if everyone and there dog did the same thing that would be the end of that political endevor.

      Alternatly, perhaps you get on someones bad side, they know you have a couple of copied movies etc (maybe they have to) well they do a quick notification the the appropriate authorities and your life is now hell.

      Bad laws let almost random people in society be taken out and victimised.

  • Piracy is used as an excuse to force consumers to put up with tougher restrictions, to use the copyright laws to push all media to a pay-per-view-or-go-to-jail format.

  • Piracy Funds Drugs, Arms Trading? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by decefett ( 127257 ) <(moc.ellevaf) (ta) (ttocs)> on Sunday May 26, 2002 @07:42AM (#3586650) Homepage
    This quote, "use piracy to fund other activities such as drug dealing, arms trading, money laundering and terrorism." cracked me up.

    I was under the naive impression that drug dealing and arms trading were highly profitable, I thought money laundering was used to hide the massive ammounts money those actvities generated.

    It's now obvious to me that file sharing and pirate CD's in flea markets are really just a front to pay for unprofitable activities like drug trafficing and arms trading.

    Come on guys, at least try to make up convicing FUD.

  • Imbecilic (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Jebediah21 ( 145272 ) on Sunday May 26, 2002 @07:49AM (#3586662) Homepage Journal
    I've heard some dumb things in my day (such as college students getting drunk only to bounce on their beds and fall out the window) but this is beyond my comprehension.

    I am in full agreement with harsher penalties for mass producers, but this isn't what would happen if the MPA, BSA, or any other organization got what they wanted. Often times it is a large piracy ring the companies go after, but /.ers know very well they'd go after anyone they could. It's a cartel / monopoly. They don't have to worry how many customers they piss off at this point.

    So basically it sounds like CD's and DVD's will becoming with a SID (Source ID) which will identify the factory that made it. How is this supposed to help prevent piracy? Suppose I'm churning out masses of DVD's in Germany. Ok... they know which plant the DVD came from. So fucking what? If the truth is being told they more than likely won't know which store I even bought the original disc from. Not to mention it wouldn't be hard to buy a disc from someplace like Norway [eu.int], which isn't even a member of the EU, and have either a different SID or no SID.

    Something tells me this whole SID thing is not to prevent or track piracy, but to keep small DVD / CD producers from being a threat with even more rules and regulations.

    From the article:
    The software and media groups also want the process of being granted civil search orders (known as Anton Piller orders in the UK) to be made easier and cheaper throughout the EU. Some countries already make the process relatively easy, said Peets, but not all. "In some member states it costs 100,000 euros to obtain a search order, and in others it can take months to process the request, by which time there could be a leak," she said.

    What is wrong with that? It seems like Peets wants to be able to barge into any house he or his cronies choose to look for pirated material. The US would do good to have a large fee to obtain a search warrant. Maybe the government / police / corporations would think twice before applying for a warrant.

    Also from the article:
    "Pirates are using the Internet to download illegal copies of movies and then burning them onto CD-ROMs or DVD Recordables, ..."

    Jesus Christ in a furnace! What if somebody used bi-pedal motion to smuggle a DVD across the street for a neighbor to copy! We must act quickly against this "walking" lest piracy run rampant! Quickly, start putting the plant ID on all shoes made so we can stop piracy and make sure nobody makes their own shoes!
    • Suppose I'm churning out masses of DVD's in Germany. Ok... they know which plant the DVD came from. So fucking what?

      So they take the DVD back to the plant and say "Who paid you to press these pirate DVDs? Where did you ship them to?" and the plant's records point to you. Busted.

      At least, that's the idea for how it's supposed to work.
      • At least, that's the idea for how it's supposed to work.

        Exactly. Except it won't help. If the DVD's are already being copied who's going to put an SID on them? If I were a content producer I'd be much more concerned about Asia than Europe.
  • MacGeevy cited a recent UK raid on a DVD-R factory turning that was allegedly making copies of Spider Man and Star Wars: Episode II movies. emphasis mine.

    Hasn't Hollywood been bosting that Spiderman and Star Wars Ep.2 are two of the highest grossing movies of all time?

    How does piracy hurt the industry again?

    All that unique idenftiers will do is raise the cost of producing the media, not that CD/DVD's are expensive to produce but I'm sure the cost will be passed on at least once.

  • What would drug-dealers need funding for?

    Drug-dealer1: You know, we just aren't making any money at this


    Drug-Dealer2:You're right. If only there was some other illegal activity we could engage in that would make enough money so that we could continue our felonious distribution of illicit substances.

    Drug-Dealer1: Hey! Why don't we sell pirated CDs?

    What, the profit margins on cocaine fall through the floor suddenly? Oh the absurdity of it all. On that list (drug dealing, arms trading, money laundering and terrorism) the only thing that needs to be funded is the terrorism. And according to the government propoganda, they use drug money (like the CIA does) not pirate money.
  • oo boy what a challenge

  • From the article:
    MacGeevy cited a recent UK raid on a DVD-R factory turning that was allegedly making copies of Spider Man and Star Wars: Episode II movies. The raid netted over 10,000 discs and 31 DVD burners.

    See! We need these ID numbers! If we had them, we could find out who bought the original Spiderman and Episode II DVDs that were being copied in this DVD-R factory! We could trace the credit card records, find the person who purchased these DVDs, and more importantly, where he purchased them.

    Come on, don't tell me you wouldn't love to find a shop selling these DVDs..?

  • What's next? (Score:3, Funny)

    by rnt ( 31403 ) on Sunday May 26, 2002 @08:46AM (#3586736)
    Next time I go to the shop to buy a CD or DVD I will have to show my ID which will get registered?
    Maybe give a sample of my DNA? Or a license agreement signed in blood?

    When I give sell or give away any of my CDs or DVDs I will have to inform some representative of the music industries there has been a change of ownership?

    How long will it take before musical instruments are being forbidden? Their sole purpose is to play music and most of the music being played may in fact be reproductions!

    "Sir, you are violating copyrights. Put down that saxophone and step away from it! Do not play another note or we WILL shoot you!"
  • No no no. This seems to me to be a logical first step in locking a CD/DVD to one specific player. I've seen a quote somewhere (no source, arg!) about a media exec saying that if they could lock down a specific CD/DVD to a specific player, that they could increase profits by a large margin. The very concept of this seems wrong, as no media in existance has ever had this restriction. If a cd player breaks, you just get another. *sighs*
    If you could lock your media to a specific, individual player... *winces*

    (Just got up and still half asleep, this post is not guaranteed to be free of spelling/grammitacal errors)


  • Peets said the SID would be helpful in two ways. "First, it would be easier to identify illegitimate products -- CDs that don't have a code would raise a red flag. Second, would be easier to trace the source if each code is linked to the plant where it was made."

    Uhh ? First, what is the problem here and secondly, how well does the proposed solution solve it.

    Given that those manufacturing CDs and DVDs in the thousands for illegal sales, will simply use someones elses's ID, it becomes obvious that we are not beeing told the whole story here ..

  • Track explosives, not CD's. (Score:5, Interesting)

    by dpbsmith ( 263124 ) on Sunday May 26, 2002 @10:19AM (#3586890) Homepage
    When it comes to tagging EXPLOSIVES to identify the source, oh, no, it would cost money and it wouldn't work ( http://www.speedsite.com/~ccohen/taggants.htm ; http://www.speedsite.com/~ccohen/taggants.htm ). But when it comes to stopping kiddies from copying MUSIC, no effort should be spared...
  • If you look at the inside rim of a CD or DVD, you will find codes that look like "IFPI xxxx", where 'xxxx' is four digits or letters. I was under the impression that this is an IFPI licence code for the pressing plant where the CD and/or the glass master were made, for auditing purposes.

    Or do they want SIDs embedded as watermarks in audio or something (undoubtedly for their legally-mandated A-D converters to detect)?
  • Why do people buy pirated CDs/DVDs?
    1.Price
    2.Availabillity
    3...uh. I can't think of anymore..

    Assuming noone is making a point of civil disobedience, the reasons to CONSUME a pirated disc are few. If someone doen't want to pay for a software program or crappy music by one of today's artists, they will get a pirate cd, or make one themselves.

    That's where availabillity comes in. If someone can't find Nick Drake's Pink Moon at their small town Walmart, they can get it over the net.

    None of the arguments used by the *IAAs target either of these, because it makes pirating THEIR fault. (Too much $$/not enough content & We don't bother to keep that in stock/ Are you sure you don't mean Nick-elback?)

    Either way, consumers are NOT being served.

  • Don't CD burners already add a unique (unique to the burner) to each CD they burn? I've heard this before, but never saw any concrete evidence. Anybody got a link for me?

    Presumably, such a unique ID would allow you to link a CDR to the recorder that created it.

  • "This would not allow us to track users," she said, "just the business where the disk was replicated." Peets noted that many disc manufacturers already use the codes, citing a figure of 80 percent. And remember, the EU has strict privacy laws.
  • After all, how are they going to know who owns a DVD- or CD-recorder with a certain ID? Purchase records? Not if the culprit paid cash for his device... and if the industry ends up requiring "registration" of recorders, people will just find other media (small hard drives! CF or SM cards!) or mod their recorders.

    Also, I'm skeptical that this could ever work in a practical sense, anyway. Look at MAC addresses on NIC cards, and how those supposedly unique numbers sometimes do repeat and conflict. That's why we're allowed to manually change them. If the computer industry can't get totally unique MACs, how can they be relied on to get totally unique recorder IDs?

    This also, of course, obviates the argument as to whether recorders should just record the MAC addresses of the machines they're in =)

  • You'll just need a music license that you'll show when you want to buy some cd/dvd.

    There may be several types :

    • electronic : forbidden to chemists, police come every now and then to check if you don't use extasy
    • reggae : the police check what you seed in your garden
    • punk : regular checks to see what you do against the government
    • ...

    Then you'll also need to register your cd/dvd burner at the nearest police station so they know the special id written on each cd you burn.

    They'll be able to track you if they find a cd you burnt and gave to a friend : you'll get 99 years in jail.

  • copy the id? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by jpmkm ( 160526 ) on Sunday May 26, 2002 @03:24PM (#3587821) Homepage
    How long until we're able to copy the unique ids?

  • OMG...... (Score:2, Funny)

    by AyeRoxor! ( 471669 )
    [T]he media groups claim that counterfeiting and piracy of copyrighted works "fund[s] ... terrorism."

    Wow!! For a second, I thought they were just being the usual greedy bastards! Now I know they're just doing it to fight terrorism, and I'm for it 100 percent! You should be too, or you're supporting TERRORISTS!

  • you're not really getting it... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Monkelectric ( 546685 ) <{slashdot} {at} {monkelectric.com}> on Sunday May 26, 2002 @06:06PM (#3588309)
    They don't care about the ID #'s on legit cds/dvds (yet). They want all cd/dvd production *equiptment* to *automatically* add the ID of the machine that made it.

    This way when they *find* a pirated CD, they can know what CD machine made it, "ahh, cd duplicator # 14652, we sold that to ... ahh, the russian mafia".

    This is how piracy works: BMG needs 100,000 of Britneys new cd ... they call up factory X and they say yeah, we can produce 100,000 cds in two weeks. But the factory lied -- they can really make 200,000 cds in two weeks -- and they *DO*. BMG gets its 100,000 cds, and they've got 100,000 cds to sell. BMG pays 1$ a cd (max), but the "counterfit" ones are identical to the real ones and they can sell them to some shady characters for *alot* more.

    And if it's not the same factory producing the pirated cds, its people using the factories machines at 2:00am in the morning. Russian mafia guy takes a janitorial or security job at factory X and when everyone goes home, he and his buddies run off cds to sell :)

    I believe that CD pressing machines cost the order of 6 or 7 digits. Your street punks selling cds on the corner cant afford these machines. Right or wrong, the RIAA wants to find out where the cds are being made. Although Im sure they will use this ID in some sneaky way later

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