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MAPS RBL Is Now Censorware (Updated)

Posted by jamie on Wed Dec 13, 2000 10:20 PM
from the seeing-pink dept.
HumpBackB wrote us about the lawsuit that ISP Media3 has filed against MAPS and its Realtime Blackhole List. The RBL, despite blocking only 2% of spam, is widely seen as an effective tool against mail abuse. I'm going to risk life and limb, and say that it has become, instead, just another censorware tool. Here's why.

Media3 has had six of its ClassCs added to the RBL: one in June, and five in November. These 1500 IP numbers are now cut off entirely from the rest of the Internet for any Internet provider who subscribes to the RBL (more on this later).

But making these 1500 IP numbers vanish from the net -- which is exactly what happens for any provider who subscribes to the RBL -- does not stop any spam from getting through. They are not blocked because those servers are sending unsolicited email, or any kind of e-mail for that matter.

Media3's service agreement is more-or-less the same as all responsible, anti-spam providers:

"M3 does not permit the transmission of unsolicited e-mail... Subsequent violations will result in suspension and/or termination of the account without refund of service fees..."

And MAPS does not even allege that a single piece of spam has been sent from any of these 1500 IP numbers. As their press release says:

"Media3 refused to require their Web-hosting customers to stop advertising their Web sites by using unsolicited commercial email..."

Even this fact is in dispute. I spoke with Joe Hayes at Media3, and he told me that the company does not tolerate Web sites which promote themselves through spam.

You can check the RBL evidence file yourself. When a MAPS representative spoke with Joe back in June, he told him that he needed to, not tighten up his sendmail rules, but "terminate the Samco [Web] sites and rewrite his AUP to prohibit the hosting of spamware."

Spamware? Yes. Media3 does host Web sites which sell software that sends bulk e-mail and harvests e-mail addresses. Take a look at MarketingMasters.com. Their IP number is 209.211.253.74, which is in the Media3 ClassC which was blocked in June. You can look them up on the RBL at http://mail-abuse.org/cgi-bin/ lookup?209.211.253.74.

Again, the blocking of that IP number, their Web site, does not stop a single piece of spam from being sent or received. What it does do is punish the folks at MarketingMasters, whose Web site can't be seen by RBL subscribers.

The problem is that MAPS has put every 209.211.253.x IP number on their list. For example, if you look up 209.211.253.169, you'll see exactly the same message and same rationale.

And 209.211.253.169 is not a spam Web site. It's otherwise known as Peacefire.org, a group of young people who are advocates of free speech rights for teenagers, and -- irony alert -- longtime opponents of censorware.

In fact, if you visit their Web site you'll see many reports about how censorware blocks the good as well as the bad. Their latest, "Amnesty Intercepted," shows that sites like Amnesty International Israel and the American Kurdish Information Network are blacklisted as pornographic by overzealous censorware.

Kind of like Peacefire -- and over a thousand other sites -- are blacklisted by MAPS.

Let's be clear about what censorware does. It does not by itself block content. It "only" rates that content as unacceptable for viewing, and it is up to someone -- your parents? your teacher? your ISP? -- to apply its rules to prevent you from seeing that content.

I don't like spam any more than the next person. But I also don't like censorship, and I take a content-neutral view of these things. If someone delivers a product to be used by Alice to block Bob from seeing website because she doesn't like its content, that product is censorware.

And if that product capriciously, unfairly, and deliberately blocks innocent Web sites, then it's not very good censorware.

In this case, the "bad" Web site sells software which could be used to spam. Frankly, compared to Nazi propaganda or bomb-making instructions, it's pretty tame. But that's not important. Standing up for speech I agree with is easy, everybody does it. If you want freedom, you have to stand up for speech you disagree with.

At least with programs like CyberPatrol, SurfWatch, and Net Nanny, when overblocking mistakes are pointed out, they are corrected. But as MAPS admits in its press release and evidence files, the intent here is not to block the actual Web sites (after all, people who want to buy the software will find a way to buy it).

No, the intent is to get the ISP in question to play ball. The fact that a thousand innocent Web sites are censored is, as far as I can tell, irrelevant.

I don't see much difference between this and any other censorware. One difference is that few other censorware packages are actually free. Another is that fewer are so obviously wielding their power as a retaliatory weapon.

And, there's also the fact that the RBL is used by a backbone provider, AboveNet, whose CTO also happens to be a co-founder of MAPS. Peacefire had no idea that it was being censored until it heard from confused would-be readers. At least with traditional censorware, if your connection to a website is blocked, you have some idea of why. Peacefire's readers naturally had no idea whether their packets were traveling over AboveNet's network, and only knew that their connections were being rejected.

(I contacted Paul Vixie to ask about AboveNet and how it uses the RBL, but he refused comment, sending me to AboveNet PR, who didn't get back to me by deadline time.)

Vixie claimed in 1998 that "MAPS volunteers always contact the owner of a site before it's blacklisted." I'm guessing none of the 1,500 blocked Web sites were contacted.

But then, MAPS also advises Web providers:

"If you host Web sites, we suggest that you use one IP per domain so that if spam occurs for one Web site, we don't have to blackhole you or your other customers to block access to the spamming site."

That's exactly what Media3 does -- and exactly what MAPS did.

Oh, and one more difference. The RBL is more successful than any other censorware package. According to Upside, 20,000 companies that control 40% of all e-mail accounts (and, quite possibly, Web sites); that's up from what ZDNet said in 1998, 2000 ISPs that control 30% of Internet destinations.

I can't find much to argue with in Joe Hayes's summary:

"They [MAPS] are blocking very good educational sites, nonprofit organizations, in their attempts to get us to adopt their definitions in their entirety. They've made no bones about hurting people and while Media3 maintains a policy of not allowing unsolicited e-mails, we do not see completely eye-to-eye on MAPS's definitions because they become very encompassing and very broad. While they have a good tool, and I commend them for their efforts to contain e-mail abuse, they're a good thing gone bad and they have basically become the abuser."

And here's a heavily abridged list of the sites that cannot be accessed via AboveNet, or any of the other providers who use the RBL -- just a few of the sites on just one blacklisted ClassC:

  • FulfilledLives.com, "the place for women and girls," about spirituality and relationships.
  • DesktopHeaven.com, Windows themes, screensavers, wallpaper.
  • TownOfCary.org, the official website for the town of Cary, North Carolina.
  • StudioZito.com, yet another Web site-designer.
  • Crossalizer.de, a music site which points out (in German) that it's a victim of an anti-spam initiative, and thus has moved to Crossalizer.com.
  • StrikeMore.com, bowling tips and schedules.
  • NewTechWellness.com: "The total balance of wholeness and wellness within the areas of Mind, Body, Family, Society, and Finances in our lives is our goal," OK, whatever.
  • ElaineCoffman.com and DianaPalmer.com -- both are authors of romance novels.
    And finally,
  • CraftersCommunity.com. "If you are looking for a fun and easy recipe to do with the kids, try these deliciously simple Winter Cookie Pops."

Update, something like an hour later: If you're planning to e-mail me or post a comment saying I don't know what I'm talking about because the RBL only blocks mail traffic, please take a moment to read this 1997 interview. Excerpt:

SunWorld: How do you defend your policy of Blackholing Web services that host spammers' Web sites -- even if the spam itself isn't going through their service?

Vixie: This is the most controversial thing we do because it's censorship of something that isn't spam. It's me saying to some Web provider, because you are renting space to this person [a spammer] who is doing something completely legal, I am going to Blackhole your butt.

For more on the Border Gateway Protocol implementation of the RBL, see this page (thanks to jeffg for the link); for a description of how it drops all packets to blackholed sites, see this message.

Also, Bennett Haselton of Peacefire reports, at 10:58 PM EST:

I just telnetted in to www.peacefire.org and was able to do "ping www.above.net" and "ping home.cnet.com" and "ping www.infoworld.com" despite the fact that that traceroute on all of these sites shows that they are hooked up via above.net.

Peacefire's IP address is still on the RBL, so it looks like AboveNet has, for the time being, temporarily stopped blocking their users from accessing sites on the RBL.

This means that either:
(1) AboveNet has realized the errors of their ways, and is trying to correct them.
(2) AboveNet is trying to cover up the fact that they ever censored their users' Internet access, and they are temporarily opening up the gateway so that people on AboveNet will be able to access Peacefire and will think it is all a hoax.

Related Stories

[+] Yes Virginia, ISPs Have Silently Blocked Web Sites 204 comments
Slashdot contributor Bennett Haselton writes "A recurring theme in editorials about Net Neutrality -- broadly defined as the principle that ISPs may not block or degrade access to sites based on their content or ownership (with exceptions for clearly delineated services like parental controls) -- is that it is a "solution in search of a problem", that ISPs in the free world have never actually blocked legal content on purpose. True, the movement is mostly motivated by statements by some ISPs about what they might do in the future, such as slow down customers' access to sites if the sites haven't paid a fast-lane "toll". But there was also an oft-forgotten episode in 2000 when it was revealed that two backbone providers, AboveNet and TeleGlobe, had been blocking users' access to certain Web sites for over a year -- not due to a configuration error, but by the choice of management within those companies. Maybe I'm biased, since one of the Web sites being blocked was mine. But I think this incident is more relevant than ever now -- not just because it shows that prolonged violations of Net Neutrality can happen, but because some of the people who organized or supported AboveNet's Web filtering, are people in fairly influential positions today, including the head of the Internet Systems Consortium, the head of the IRTF's Anti-Spam Research Group, and the operator of Spamhaus. Which begs the question: If they really believe that backbone companies have the right to silently block Web sites, are some of them headed for a rift with Net Neutrality supporters?" Read on for the rest of his story.
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Media3 Sues MAPS Over RBL Listings | Log In/Create an Account | Top | 656 comments (Spill at 50!) | Index Only | Search Discussion
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  • Idiot by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Wednesday December 13 2000, @05:50PM
  • How to remove your site from the block list? by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Wednesday December 13 2000, @06:29PM
  • Slashdot proves they're shoddy/knee-jerk lunatics. by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Wednesday December 13 2000, @08:05PM
  • Sorry, you're a moron by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Thursday December 14 2000, @12:16AM
  • Re:What MAPS is... by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Thursday December 14 2000, @05:05AM
  • Re:A compelling argument... by Anonymous Coward (Score:2) Wednesday December 13 2000, @05:35PM
  • Re:MAPS != censorship. by Anonymous Coward (Score:2) Wednesday December 13 2000, @06:39PM
  • right to censor by Anonymous Coward (Score:2) Wednesday December 13 2000, @10:45PM
  • check max hops by William Aoki (Score:1) Wednesday December 13 2000, @07:45PM
  • Re:Just ignore the spam? by Chris Johnson (Score:2) Wednesday December 13 2000, @10:09PM
  • That's no good at all. by Chris Johnson (Score:2) Thursday December 14 2000, @12:51AM
  • Re:SERVERS CAN STOP spam EASILY!!! by Chris Johnson (Score:2) Thursday December 14 2000, @12:55AM
  • Re:What in god's name are you talking about? by Trepidity (Score:2) Thursday December 14 2000, @01:00AM
  • Re:Exactly by Trepidity (Score:2) Thursday December 14 2000, @01:04AM
  • Re:MAPS != censorship. by cduffy (Score:2) Thursday December 14 2000, @06:09AM
  • Absolutely not. by cduffy (Score:2) Thursday December 21 2000, @10:25AM
  • um, wrong thrice by Tom (Score:1) Thursday December 14 2000, @03:45AM
  • Re:Bullshit by perrin (Score:1) Thursday December 14 2000, @12:10AM
  • Tricky. by pb (Score:2) Wednesday December 13 2000, @08:33PM
  • Re:uhhh by demon (Score:1) Wednesday December 13 2000, @07:16PM
  • This really has gotten out of hand.. by defile (Score:1) Wednesday December 13 2000, @05:37PM
  • MAPS RBL is essential for blocking spam by ikluft (Score:1) Thursday December 14 2000, @04:25PM
  • Re:"Press time"? by The Rizz (Score:1) Wednesday December 13 2000, @06:29PM
  • Innocent victims of *a bad ISP* by Per Abrahamsen (Score:2) Thursday December 14 2000, @05:05AM
  • Irony Alert: DeCSS (Score:5)

    by chrisd (1457) <chrisd@@@dibona...com> on Wednesday December 13 2000, @07:44PM (#560462) Homepage
    I am probably not the only person who found it interesting that maps, by banning an IP because of a company selling software to spam, is the moral equivalent to the MPAA suing and taking down sites that host DeCSS. Do we go after the tools to do "bad things" or do we go after those who do the "bad things".

    Now, spamming software is sick messed up crap, but if we subscribe to maps, then are we as bad as Jack Valenti and his pals in the entertainment industry?

    Chris DiBona
    VA Linux Systems


    --
    Grant Chair, Linux Int.
    Pres, SVLUG

  • More power to em! by jmorris42 (Score:1) Wednesday December 13 2000, @06:00PM
  • Disagreeable Volume vs. Disagreeable Content by Xenophon Fenderson, (Score:1) Thursday December 14 2000, @05:43AM
  • Re:This really has gotten out of hand.. by Mark Pitman (Score:1) Wednesday December 13 2000, @09:23PM
  • Re:Huh??? by Sabalon (Score:1) Wednesday December 13 2000, @06:01PM
  • Re:Not totally correct. by Sabalon (Score:1) Friday December 15 2000, @08:53AM
  • Is the RBL really being used for HTTP? by copito (Score:2) Wednesday December 13 2000, @05:39PM
  • by Acheron (2182) on Wednesday December 13 2000, @08:39PM (#560469)

    There are three ways that RBL may be used, listed at this address:

    http://mail-abuse.org/rbl/usage.html [mail-abuse.org]

    ONLY ONE OF THE USAGE METHODS results in blackholing all ip traffic, that is the Subscription via BGP. This option is only available to larger networks with routers which have an ASN (see whatis.com [techtarget.com] if you don't know what an ASN is.)

    I know of very very few networks which use RBL in this manner. There must be a few, but it seems like a pain in the ass, and there are negative effects of doing it, as indicated on the RBL description of the service.

    Anyone choosing to implement such an esoteric blackholing system for all ip traffic from RBL-listed hosts is likely FULLY AWARE that they will be dropping some hosts, and must consider that an acceptable risk. If you are a client of such an organization, and don't buy into that, then leave. My guess would be that most that have successful implementations of BGP RBL subscription had buy-in from their clients before they set it up.

    My guess is that 95% or more of RBL subscribers use the "Direct usage via DNS lookup by mailserver" method of applying RBL blocking. This method has ZERO IMPACT on http, ftp, dns, ICMP, or any other type of traffic other than SMTP.

    This Slashdot article was written by someone who does not understand the nature of the Internet and the RBL on a detailed level, and who is obviously dipping into conspiracy theories a bit... his little diatribe on above.net sounds like the manifesto of a lunatic. To the author: Get over it, sir. You don't understand the technology, and you don't understand the decisions made by ISPs who implement the RBL. I wish you well in your career, but this isn't going to be the ground-breaking story you thought it was. Feel free to write me if you'd like to speak to me further.

    Sincerely,
    ~Acheron

  • Re:Is the RBL really being used for HTTP? by sjanes71 (Score:1) Thursday December 14 2000, @06:14AM
  • Re:RBL Usage info - READ THIS by sjanes71 (Score:2) Thursday December 14 2000, @06:07AM
  • Re:MAPS != censorship. by Amphigory (Score:2) Wednesday December 13 2000, @10:14PM
  • Why the Hell Not? by Amphigory (Score:2) Wednesday December 13 2000, @10:22PM
  • Re:There are no innocent victims by David Jao (Score:1) Thursday December 14 2000, @01:05AM
  • Re:The problem is the innocent victims by David Jao (Score:1) Thursday December 14 2000, @06:56PM
  • drawbacks of negative feedback by David Jao (Score:2) Wednesday December 13 2000, @06:17PM
  • by David Jao (2759) <djao@dominia.org> on Wednesday December 13 2000, @05:59PM (#560477) Homepage
    Did you read the article by any chance? The problem being pointed out is that organizations such as Peacefire, who do not spam or harbor spammers or support spammers, are being blocked by the RBL, not for anything they did, but merely for being on the same netblock as the spammer websites.

    Such a gaffe might be understandable if the IP addresses in question were dynamic, but they're not. They're static. There is no need for MAPS to list peacefire.org in the RBL.

  • Re:Huh??? (Score:5)

    by jeffg (2966) on Wednesday December 13 2000, @06:50PM (#560478)

    There are many forms of the MAPS RBL subscription.

    One form that appeals to some network providers is the MAPS RBL Subscription via Multihop eBGP4 [mail-abuse.org] . This subscription option involves configuration within border routers of a subscribing network provider. Any traffic that passes through a router configured to peer with the MAPS RBL feed will null-route packets destined for any host or network listed in the MAPS RBL. This includes ALL internet protocol traffic -- not just mail.

    If a network or host is listed in the MAPS RBL, and a router between you and that host or network is configured to use the MAPS RBL BGP feed, you will be unable to browse a website located there, you will be unable to ftp to them, and yes, you will be unable to send them mail. And they will be unable to send you mail, or browse your web site. Again, any traffic passing through a router configured in this way that is destined for an IP in the MAPS RBL will be null-routed -- for all intents and purposes, dropped on the floor.

    Asymmetric routing and inadequate coverage on the border can be a noted hole, but in cases such as these, the MAPS RBL BGP feed isn't really working anyways.

  • This isn't right by Bruce Perens (Score:1) Wednesday December 13 2000, @05:27PM
  • Re:That was the old system by Bruce Perens (Score:1) Wednesday December 13 2000, @05:34PM
  • Re:Look again by Bruce Perens (Score:1) Wednesday December 13 2000, @05:44PM
  • Re:That doesn't prove anything by Bruce Perens (Score:1) Wednesday December 13 2000, @05:57PM
  • Moderate down, I'm wrong. by Bruce Perens (Score:1) Wednesday December 13 2000, @06:10PM
  • Re:Moderate UP, he's right! - Proof by Bruce Perens (Score:1) Wednesday December 13 2000, @06:45PM
  • Re:Exactly by Bruce Perens (Score:1) Wednesday December 13 2000, @06:49PM
  • Re:not the real Bruce Perens by Bruce Perens (Score:1) Wednesday December 13 2000, @07:44PM
  • Re:Exactly by Bruce Perens (Score:1) Wednesday December 13 2000, @07:46PM
  • Re:Mill's tries to be an absolute by Bruce Perens (Score:1) Wednesday December 13 2000, @08:29PM
  • Re:services like this by Bruce Perens (Score:2) Wednesday December 13 2000, @05:32PM
  • Re:A compelling argument... by Bruce Perens (Score:2) Wednesday December 13 2000, @05:37PM
  • Re:Exactly by Bruce Perens (Score:2) Wednesday December 13 2000, @05:48PM
  • Re:services like this by Bruce Perens (Score:2) Wednesday December 13 2000, @05:53PM
  • Re:RBL - What a hosed concept by Bruce Perens (Score:2) Wednesday December 13 2000, @05:55PM
  • Oops. Big oops. by Bruce Perens (Score:2) Wednesday December 13 2000, @06:08PM
  • Re:No, you don't have the right by Bruce Perens (Score:2) Wednesday December 13 2000, @06:14PM
  • Re:Exactly by Bruce Perens (Score:2) Wednesday December 13 2000, @06:17PM
  • Re:That violates John Stuart Mill's liberalism max by Bruce Perens (Score:2) Wednesday December 13 2000, @07:17PM
  • Re:Exactly (Score:3)

    by Bruce Perens (3872) <bruce@pMONETerens.com minus painter> on Wednesday December 13 2000, @05:29PM (#560498) Homepage Journal
    And then, you can turn the RBL off. Victims of Censorware can't turn it off because they aren't allowed to do so.

    Bruce

  • by Bruce Perens (3872) <bruce@pMONETerens.com minus painter> on Wednesday December 13 2000, @05:43PM (#560499) Homepage Journal
    traceroute to MediaMasters.com (204.101.215.149), 30 hops max, 38 byte packets
    1 dnai-com.perens.com (216.15.108.185) 21.416 ms 0.832 ms 0.703 ms
    2 dnai-216-15-96-1.cust.dnai.com (216.15.96.1) 22.975 ms 12.134 ms 16.915 ms
    3 fe3-0-br-1.sjc.dnai.com (207.181.193.1) 22.722 ms 7.364 ms 7.759 ms
    4 main2-249-152.sjc.above.net (209.249.152.3) 20.723 ms 9.060 ms 7.091 ms
    5 core5-main2-oc3.sjc.above.net (216.200.0.205) 23.190 ms 7.470 ms 7.776 ms 6 core1-core5-oc48.sjc2.above.net (216.200.0.178) 23.403 ms 7.579 ms 7.755 ms
    7 ord-sjc-oc12.ord.above.net (207.126.96.117) 67.590 ms 67.780 ms 68.573 ms 8 POS12-0-0.GW2.CHI6.ALTER.NET (157.130.111.89) 70.829 ms 69.470 ms 69.189 ms
    9 112.ATM3-0.XR1.CHI6.ALTER.NET (146.188.208.186) 69.099 ms 67.905 ms 69.813 ms
    10 291.ATM2-0.TR1.CHI4.ALTER.NET (146.188.208.250) 94.485 ms 95.112 ms 93.882 ms
    11 106.ATM7-0.TR1.TOR2.ALTER.NET (146.188.142.74) 95.481 ms 102.600 ms 99.372 ms
    12 299.ATM7-0.XR1.TOR3.ALTER.NET (152.63.129.149) 103.557 ms 98.535 ms 98.082 ms
    13 190.ATM7-0.GW1.TOR3.ALTER.NET (152.63.129.233) 98.190 ms 100.049 ms 98.933 ms
    14 205.150.221.230 (205.150.221.230) 114.641 ms 100.628 ms 103.484 ms
    15 mediamasters (204.101.215.149) 102.729 ms 101.457 ms 101.752 ms

    So, it's not happening here.

  • OK, I'm a dunce. (Score:3)

    by Bruce Perens (3872) <bruce@pMONETerens.com minus painter> on Wednesday December 13 2000, @06:06PM (#560500) Homepage Journal
    Bruce perens is human. I typed mediamasters instead of marketingmasters. I am getting to the marketingmasters class C through alter.net rather than above.net .

    Bruce

  • by Bruce Perens (3872) <bruce@pMONETerens.com minus painter> on Wednesday December 13 2000, @07:21PM (#560501) Homepage Journal
    Slashdot is so funny. I get moderated to +4 for admitting I'm a dunce :-)

    Thanks

    Bruce

  • I have to agree. (Score:5)

    by Bruce Perens (3872) <bruce@pMONETerens.com minus painter> on Wednesday December 13 2000, @07:06PM (#560502) Homepage Journal
    Signal-to-noise is a precious commodity. Of course, spam degrades it. If spammers ran rampant (more than they do today), I'd not be able to have this [perens.com], an address that anybody in the world can use to reach me, even when I've never heard of you.

    It happens that if you write me and I'm not at home, I get your mail via Palm VII wirelessly. Whoever you are. Even if I've never heard of you. And sometimes, that matters to people.

    Spam really is a problem on the Palm, because it takes time to download it, there's only 2MB RAM so there's no space for it, and so on.

    So, I want to filter spam, and I want to deter spammers because deterrence is more effective than a filter. The RBL has been a positive force for me, it's kept the S/N to the point that I can read your mail.

    Thanks

    Bruce

  • Re:Why should RBL block HTTP? by Harik (Score:1) Wednesday December 13 2000, @11:23PM
  • Re:can MAPS/ORBS be advisory to users? by Howie (Score:2) Thursday December 14 2000, @04:47AM
  • Re:"Press time"? by jamiemccarthy (Score:1) Wednesday December 13 2000, @07:01PM
  • Re:Moaning ninny USian teens by jamiemccarthy (Score:1) Thursday December 14 2000, @04:05AM
  • Re:Good or bad, it's not censorware by jamiemccarthy (Score:1) Thursday December 14 2000, @04:14AM
  • by jamiemccarthy (4847) on Thursday December 14 2000, @03:35AM (#560508) Homepage Journal
    "Just a correction, according to spamhaus media3 is hosting not 1 but 21 spam sites, the largest on the list, and considering media3 is a grand total of a few class C networks, thats a pretty high percentage of their customers being spammers."

    Just some corrections of your correction. :)

    1. The Spamhaus list is here [spamhaus.org].

    2. Not a single one of the IP numbers listed there sends spam. Let me repeat that: you could drop every one of those IP numbers off your network and it would not stop a single piece of spam from reaching you. Those are websites. Spamhaus and MAPS don't like ths products those websites are selling and that is why they (and over a thousand other websites) are blocked.

    3. Media3 has 42 Class C blocks, which means that 0.2% of their IP numbers house websites which sell spam-friendly software (but, again, those IP numbers are not sending spam). I would not say 0.2% is a "high percentage."

    The situation is analogous to a censorware company blackmailing a service provider into removing Holocaust-denial material, by blocking thousands of innocent websites. Now, I don't like Holocaust denial [holocaust-history.org], but standing up for free speech means standing up for speech I don't believe in.

    This situation is no different (except that, on my scale of evil, spammers aren't even close to those who want to rehabilitate Hitler).

    Jamie McCarthy

  • services like this by Al Wold (Score:1) Wednesday December 13 2000, @05:27PM
  • Mill's *is* an absolute, but not how you think by Old Man Kensey (Score:1) Thursday December 14 2000, @06:29AM
  • Re:Neural Net Spam Filtering! by Kiwi (Score:2) Thursday December 14 2000, @09:56AM
  • Re:MAPS != censorship. by dwdyer (Score:2) Wednesday December 13 2000, @09:24PM
  • Re:Fuck off, Commie Pinko by Darchmare (Score:2) Wednesday December 13 2000, @06:18PM
  • Re:RBL is for Mail-Abuse you Fools!! by Darchmare (Score:2) Wednesday December 13 2000, @06:40PM
  • Re:Fuck off, Commie Pinko by Darchmare (Score:2) Wednesday December 13 2000, @09:23PM
  • Re:More power to em! by buysse (Score:1) Wednesday December 13 2000, @09:21PM
  • Re:RBL Usage info - READ THIS by buysse (Score:2) Wednesday December 13 2000, @09:29PM
  • Good or bad, it's not censorware by jaffray (Score:1) Wednesday December 13 2000, @11:41PM
  • Re:Good or bad, it's not censorware by jaffray (Score:1) Thursday December 14 2000, @07:34AM
  • Web Sites? by cotcomsol (Score:1) Thursday December 14 2000, @07:32AM
  • Exactly by enterfornone (Score:1) Wednesday December 13 2000, @05:27PM
  • The problem isn't the RBL by enterfornone (Score:1) Wednesday December 13 2000, @07:10PM
  • Most ISPs will not tell you they are using MAPS. Even if they did, there are still enough ISPs using MAPS to cause problems if MAPS decide to block someone unfairly.
  • Re:Horay! by Nermal (Score:1) Thursday December 14 2000, @10:51AM
  • Re:Fuck off, Commie Pinko by Jonathan C. Patschke (Score:1) Wednesday December 13 2000, @07:50PM
  • Re:Fuck off, Commie Pinko by Jonathan C. Patschke (Score:1) Thursday December 14 2000, @01:19AM
  • Re:"Press time"? by waldoj (Score:2) Wednesday December 13 2000, @05:46PM
  • Re:Huh??? by waldoj (Score:2) Wednesday December 13 2000, @05:49PM
  • Argh... by Pierre Phaneuf (Score:1) Thursday December 14 2000, @04:37AM
  • Re:Irony Alert: DeCSS by fidros (Score:1) Wednesday December 13 2000, @09:34PM
  • Re:Is the RBL really being used for HTTP? by grahamm (Score:1) Wednesday December 13 2000, @11:51PM
  • Re:So what do you propose? by grahamm (Score:1) Thursday December 14 2000, @12:54AM
  • Re:A Better Analogy by grahamm (Score:1) Thursday December 14 2000, @02:38AM
  • Re:Sounds like the role of the RBL has expanded.. by scrytch (Score:2) Saturday December 16 2000, @02:17PM
  • ? stay of the inet if you don't like censorware? by Barbarian (Score:2) Wednesday December 13 2000, @10:36PM
  • Re:Huh??? by Barbarian (Score:2) Wednesday December 13 2000, @10:41PM
  • get YOUR facts straight by Barbarian (Score:2) Wednesday December 13 2000, @10:47PM
  • burn the witch! by Barbarian (Score:2) Thursday December 14 2000, @01:54AM
  • Huh??? by PD (Score:1) Wednesday December 13 2000, @05:40PM
  • Jamie, get a grip by consumer (Score:1) Wednesday December 13 2000, @05:43PM
  • Re:This is exactly what we want them to do. by Cederic (Score:1) Thursday December 14 2000, @01:46AM
  • Re:The RBL is supposed to be narrow by /dev/kev (Score:1) Wednesday December 13 2000, @09:10PM
  • Re:Thats not what its for... by /dev/kev (Score:1) Wednesday December 13 2000, @09:12PM
  • Re:Irony Alert: DeCSS by /dev/kev (Score:2) Wednesday December 13 2000, @09:01PM
  • Re:Sorry, Jamie, you are way off base by /dev/kev (Score:2) Thursday December 14 2000, @03:26AM
  • by /dev/kev (9760) on Wednesday December 13 2000, @08:21PM (#560546) Homepage
    So, what do you do to get Media3 to close down the spammer?

    You don't need to. Just block the spammer's website. This still cuts off the money - the spammer will get less, since they've been RBL'd, and if the spammer goes elsewhere, then the ISP loses their money - but not at the (unnecessary) expense of other customers. Repeat the process with wherever the spammer goes next.

    That's how MAPS should work, by blocking the bad stuff so that RBL users just don't see it. There isn't any need to punish innocent sites who happen to be on the same class C. MAPS should concentrate on blocking spammers and their sites, not trying to twist ISPs arms.

    If MAPS successfully got Media3 to shut down the spammer's site, then MAPS WOULD be dealing in censorship, wouldn't they? They'd no longer be this optional advisory guide you could use, rather, they'd be going around getting websites they don't like shut down. If that's not censorship, I don't know what is.

    MAPS seems to want to have it both ways - to the public: "Oh, we're not censoring anyone", but to M3: "Shut this site down now, or we'll punish you by blocking lots of your sites". I'm sorry, but to me, that's just terrible.
  • Spam Filtering Has *ALWAYS* Been Censorware by AviN (Score:1) Wednesday December 13 2000, @06:18PM
  • censor v's filter by Kris_J (Score:2) Wednesday December 13 2000, @11:01PM
  • Re:Mill's tries to be an absolute by DavidTC (Score:1) Wednesday December 13 2000, @09:44PM
  • Re:OK, I'm a dunce. by DavidTC (Score:1) Wednesday December 13 2000, @09:48PM
  • Re:censorware. by DavidTC (Score:1) Wednesday December 13 2000, @10:06PM
  • Re:Is the RBL really being used for HTTP? by DavidTC (Score:2) Wednesday December 13 2000, @10:28PM
  • Re:What in god's name are you talking about? by Dg93 (Score:1) Wednesday December 13 2000, @08:26PM
  • Re:The problem isn't the RBL by fb (Score:1) Wednesday December 13 2000, @10:08PM
  • Re:The problem isn't the RBL by fb (Score:1) Thursday December 14 2000, @02:48AM
  • Security Focus Listservs saw this comming by LWolenczak (Score:1) Wednesday December 13 2000, @05:44PM
  • Re:A Better Analogy by CodeMonky (Score:1) Thursday December 14 2000, @03:53AM
  • Re:Irony Alert: DeCSS by Omnifarious (Score:1) Thursday December 14 2000, @01:42AM
  • Re:jamie has a point. by Omnifarious (Score:1) Thursday December 14 2000, @11:05AM
  • jamie has a point. (Score:4)

    by Omnifarious (11933) on Wednesday December 13 2000, @06:29PM (#560560) Homepage Journal

    Arguments about whether or not RBL is a censor because it doesn't wield the power of a government are sort of missing the point. The point is if it provides a useful list. Censorware is censorware because it provides a very unuseful list. The fact that schools and libraries use it is almost irelevant to its name.

    From what jamie has said, it sounds like RBL isn't so much trying to block spam as trying to apply political pressure to get an ISP to do what it wants.

    Essentially, they're using the fact that hundreds of ISPs suscribe to them and trust them to help them block spam as a club to beat other ISPs into doing what they want. That doesn't seem like a terribly wholesome thing to do to me. I don't want my subscription to be used that way. I simply want them to tell me what sites send spam.

  • Spam is censorship by Buddy (Score:1) Thursday December 14 2000, @04:27AM
  • Re:Sorry, Jamie, you are way off base by Buddy (Score:1) Thursday December 14 2000, @05:12AM
  • MAPS' list _is_ Free Speech by Buddy (Score:1) Thursday December 14 2000, @10:52AM
  • Here's a first by xrayspx (Score:1) Wednesday December 13 2000, @06:14PM
  • Re:services like this by um... Lucas (Score:1) Wednesday December 13 2000, @06:01PM
  • Re:Exactly by um... Lucas (Score:1) Wednesday December 13 2000, @08:05PM
  • Re:Mill's tries to be an absolute by um... Lucas (Score:1) Wednesday December 13 2000, @09:03PM
  • Re:Exactly by um... Lucas (Score:2) Wednesday December 13 2000, @05:40PM
  • Re:services like this by um... Lucas (Score:2) Wednesday December 13 2000, @05:42PM
  • Re:Exactly by um... Lucas (Score:2) Wednesday December 13 2000, @05:57PM
  • MAPS RBL blocks MAIL, not the net! by TA (Score:1) Thursday December 14 2000, @02:08AM
  • Re:Idiot by TA (Score:1) Thursday December 14 2000, @07:11AM
  • Bad experience with MAPS at our ISP by jking (Score:1) Wednesday December 13 2000, @08:14PM
  • There are no innocent victims by Sloppy (Score:1) Wednesday December 13 2000, @09:08PM
  • by Sloppy (14984) on Wednesday December 13 2000, @08:53PM (#560575) Homepage Journal

    This is the difference between locking up the kiddy pornographer and locking up the people that made the high quality photographic paper and the ink used to create the images!

    No. There's one little flaw in your analogy, but it's important.

    It's not like locking up the people who made the photographic paper. It's like choosing to not do business with the people who made the photographic paper, and telling them that you will remove your boycott if they stop selling photographic paper to the kiddy pornographer.

    Nobody's rights are being infringed. Nobody is having force used against them. There's a huge difference between locking someone up and boycotting them.


    ---
  • Re:Horay! by Wiseleo (Score:1) Thursday December 14 2000, @11:46AM
  • Re:Crime? by Wiseleo (Score:1) Thursday December 14 2000, @02:30PM
  • Re:Have you looked at the site? by Nater (Score:1) Wednesday December 13 2000, @10:11PM
  • Re:MAPS != censorship. by Nater (Score:1) Wednesday December 13 2000, @10:36PM
  • Re:Have you looked at the site? by Nater (Score:1) Thursday December 14 2000, @12:03AM
  • Re:An old and silly argument by Nater (Score:1) Thursday December 14 2000, @05:20AM
  • Re:MAPS = DOS by Todd Knarr (Score:1) Thursday December 14 2000, @05:34AM
  • Re:MAPS = DOS by Todd Knarr (Score:1) Thursday December 14 2000, @10:06AM
  • Moaning ninny USian teens by Taurine (Score:1) Wednesday December 13 2000, @11:43PM
  • Re:You've totally missed the point... by The Vorlon (Score:1) Thursday December 14 2000, @07:43AM
  • Re:Irony Alert: DeCSS by The Vorlon (Score:1) Thursday December 14 2000, @11:11AM
  • Re:You've totally missed the point... by seebs (Score:2) Thursday December 14 2000, @11:37AM
  • by seebs (15766) on Wednesday December 13 2000, @08:18PM (#560588) Homepage
    The problems with censorware are: 1. Inaccurate or undocumented listings. 2. Listings for things other than those said. The RBL has neither of these problems. Media3 is actively and knowingly supporting the people who flood your mailbox with all the crap we call "spam". Does blocking Media3's sites, in many cases at the IP level, result in you getting less spam? Today? No. Today, it just means those sites don't get as much traffic. Tomorrow? Sooner or later, Media3 will have to decide whether it wants to be on the network where spammers do business, or on the network where RBL subscribers do business. If they pick the spammer network, they will eventually be totally removed from the network, as they find their way into more and more blacklists. If they decide they want the other network, they will stop supporting spammers and people who sell spamware. With no way to sell their products, the spamware vendors will stop sending you ads for them. People will stop *buying* the products, because there will be no way to buy them. You will get less spam. It's an educational tool. Media3 has the option of being on the network where you host spammer pages, or on the network that RBL subscribers see. They have made their choice. Your list of sites "also affected" misses the point entirely. Those people are paying Media3, and as long as Media3 makes money, Media3 has no real reason to care whether or not hosting spammer sites is damaging to the rest of the network. If your hosting company is supporting spammers, you will be fucked. Don't buy hosting from companies that are unwilling to terminate spammer websites. The RBL isn't about stopping spam *today*. It's about encouraging the policies that we *absolutely need* if we are to have less spam *tomorrow*. Thanks to the RBL, a number of very large networks have put in strong, effective, anti-spam policies. Every day, you don't get dozens of spams that would once have been sent via netcom. Every day, hundreds of spams that would have advertised sites hosted by companies with a policy just like the Media3 policy *aren't* sent, because those sites got taken down, because the policies got fixed. Media3 is wrong. MAPS is right. Media3 is trying to support the theory that, as long as the actual spam is relay-raped or sent via throwaway dialup accounts, it's not their problem where the page is hosted. MAPS is educating them. As soon as Media3 fixes its policy to unequivocally prohibit the hosting of spamware sites, address list sites, and sites advertised in spam, and starts enforcing that policy, everyone is happy.
  • Re:This is exactly what we want them to do. by Skapare (Score:2) Wednesday December 13 2000, @11:35PM
  • Re:MAPS != censorship. by Skapare (Score:2) Wednesday December 13 2000, @11:43PM
  • Re:Power, unchecked, corrupting as usual by Skapare (Score:2) Thursday December 14 2000, @12:16AM
  • Re:Screw Vixie and his goon friends at Above.net by Skapare (Score:2) Thursday December 14 2000, @12:33AM
  • Re:Irony Alert: DeCSS by Skapare (Score:2) Thursday December 14 2000, @12:43AM
  • by Skapare (16644) on Thursday December 14 2000, @01:01AM (#560594) Homepage

    You can use RBL w/o an ASN. You just have to run BGP4 and peer with the RBL eBGP4 server and let it route to your black hole address. You then default route everything else out your single backbone connection. No other BGP peering is needed. Since you're not announcing routes (and RBL certainly isn't taking them) you can use a reserved ASN to configure your router.

  • Re:A Better Analogy by Felinoid (Score:1) Thursday December 14 2000, @01:30AM
  • Re:A Better Analogy by Felinoid (Score:1) Thursday December 14 2000, @01:36AM
  • Re:A Better Analogy by Felinoid (Score:1) Thursday December 14 2000, @01:42AM
  • Pot kettle black by Felinoid (Score:1) Thursday December 14 2000, @02:30AM
  • Re:Screw Vixie and his goon friends at Above.net by Felinoid (Score:1) Thursday December 14 2000, @02:39AM
  • Re:You've totally missed the point... by Felinoid (Score:1) Thursday December 14 2000, @03:27AM
  • Re:Horay! by Felinoid (Score:1) Tuesday December 19 2000, @03:28AM
  • Re:A Better Analogy by Felinoid (Score:1) Monday December 25 2000, @11:30AM
  • Re:My objection to the MAPS RBL is over by Felinoid (Score:1) Monday December 25 2000, @01:13PM
  • My objection to the MAPS RBL is over by Felinoid (Score:2) Thursday December 14 2000, @02:09AM
  • by Lumpish Scholar (17107) on Wednesday December 13 2000, @09:24PM (#560605) Homepage Journal
    Can an ISP, instead of filtering mail from "bad" sites, add identifying header lines to messages from such hosts? That way, users could add fiters to block such messages, but have filters with a higher precedence to allow mail from friends and family. (I know this requires a fair level of expertise. Also not clear how you could set it up so users wouldn't even have to download spam.)
  • Re:Huh? by boots@work (Score:1) Wednesday December 13 2000, @05:52PM
  • Re:You can't fool all the people... by Fishy (Score:1) Thursday December 14 2000, @02:38AM
  • Re:So? by Adam J. Richter (Score:1) Thursday December 14 2000, @07:50PM
  • Re:So? by Adam J. Richter (Score:1) Thursday December 14 2000, @09:38PM
  • Re:So? by Adam J. Richter (Score:1) Sunday December 17 2000, @11:45AM
  • Re:So? by Adam J. Richter (Score:1) Tuesday December 19 2000, @05:04AM
  • Re:So? by Adam J. Richter (Score:1) Tuesday December 19 2000, @05:30AM
  • Above.net IS STILL not routing to ORBS by Adam J. Richter (Score:2) Wednesday December 13 2000, @11:49PM
  • Re:Fuck off, Commie Pinko by SpacePunk (Score:1) Thursday December 14 2000, @04:56AM
  • Re:A compelling argument... by Wntrmute (Score:1) Thursday December 14 2000, @07:59AM
  • Try *reading* the article... by Wntrmute (Score:1) Thursday December 14 2000, @08:11AM
  • Armchair QBing makes me sick. by augustz (Score:1) Wednesday December 13 2000, @05:32PM
  • MAPS has the right spirit. by augustz (Score:1) Wednesday December 13 2000, @05:41PM
  • Wannabe Actavisits and Bad Facts by augustz (Score:1) Wednesday December 13 2000, @05:45PM
  • To Contribute to MAPS Legal Defense Fund by augustz (Score:1) Wednesday December 13 2000, @06:00PM
  • Proof that Abovenet does not block: by augustz (Score:1) Wednesday December 13 2000, @06:12PM
  • Moderate UP, he's right! - Proof by augustz (Score:1) Wednesday December 13 2000, @06:18PM
  • Re:Sorry, Jamie, you are way off base by augustz (Score:1) Wednesday December 13 2000, @06:31PM
  • Re:MAPS has the right spirit. by augustz (Score:1) Thursday December 14 2000, @02:02AM
  • Spam: A Receiver Decision by Codeine (Score:1) Wednesday December 13 2000, @11:11PM
  • Re:Sorry, Jamie, you are way off base by The Asmodeus (Score:1) Wednesday December 13 2000, @07:13PM
  • Re:A Better Analogy by winnetou (Score:1) Thursday December 14 2000, @01:59AM
  • Re:Sorry, Jamie, you are way off base by winnetou (Score:1) Thursday December 14 2000, @02:20AM
  • Re:Irony Alert: DeCSS by winnetou (Score:1) Thursday December 14 2000, @02:59AM
  • Re:You can't fool all the people... by winnetou (Score:1) Thursday December 14 2000, @03:20AM
  • Re:Huh??? by winnetou (Score:1) Thursday December 14 2000, @03:50AM
  • Re:Additional data by Black Parrot (Score:1) Wednesday December 13 2000, @09:50PM
  • Re:OK, I'm a dunce. by Black Parrot (Score:1) Wednesday December 13 2000, @09:53PM
  • Re:Irony Alert: DeCSS by HugoRune (Score:1) Thursday December 14 2000, @12:17AM
  • Most odd - why the /24? by kieran (Score:1) Thursday December 14 2000, @04:57AM
  • A regex that matches 90% of spam I receive by Fiery (Score:1) Thursday December 14 2000, @04:13AM
  • by adolf (21054) <adolf@phreaker.net> on Wednesday December 13 2000, @09:29PM (#560637)
    Spam is bad, to some people. To some others, it is ok. And still others appreciate it.

    Pornography is bad, to some people. To some others, it is ok. And still others appreciate it.

    DeCSS is bad, to some people. To some others, it is ok. And still others appreciate it.

    We here at slashdot tend to view a given subject only from the perspective which best serves our own interests. We are as selfish, prejudice, maliciously reactionary, and sublimely manipulative as any of the MPAA, the spamware folks, or the extremist portion of the Christian Right.

    Rather than attempt to remain reasonable and retain even a hint of impartiality, we react viciously to anything deemed to be infringing upon on our rights, with absolute disregard to the rights of any others who might be in the way.

    We do this as we sit high upon our assumed intellectual high horse/flimsy house of cards, shouting banters about freedom, goodness, and The Right Thing To Do; cries which typically fall upon deaf ears.

    Witness our views on DeCSS, Censorware, Spamware, MP3 encoders, MP3s themselves, the iOpener, or TiVo's 'exploitation' of the Linux kernel, and try to visualize the other parties' justification (which, in these cases, is -always- legitimate) for whatever it is that they have done to offend the horrid, arrogant, nonsensical beast that is slashdot. In other words, put yourself in their shoes.

    Those who are unwilling to do so are simply afraid of finding that said shoe fits their own foot perfectly, and that they'd hence not be able to remove it from their mouth. This is an obviously unacceptable outcome, given the clear superiority of the average slashdot user (let alone the top 5 percent).

    With such bigotry abounding en masse, it's no wonder they can't hear us.

    Choose your enemies carefully, because that is who you will become. --Lao Tzu
  • Re:censorware. by matth (Score:1) Thursday December 14 2000, @04:29AM
  • censorware. (Score:4)

    by matth (22742) on Wednesday December 13 2000, @05:30PM (#560639) Homepage
    I personally feel that MAPS, ORBs are more trouble then they are worth. I used to work for an isp which used orbs and it was really truely nothing more then a headache for the Tech people. People woudl call in wondering why they were not able to get e-mail from someone, or why someone could not get e-mail from them. And most of the time it was ORBS. Another example is that open mail relays are blocked. My own mail server was blocked by ORBS one day. it was fine.. the next day blocked. Never (except for perhaps a few minutes here and there) had it been an open relay, yet orbs had blocked it. When I requested they take it off, they promptly did, but again, there was no reason for it to be put up there!

  • Re:A compelling argument... by Tripster (Score:2) Thursday December 14 2000, @10:07AM
  • Email, now page viewing by searcher (Score:1) Wednesday December 13 2000, @05:36PM
  • Re:MAPS is in the right by searcher (Score:1) Wednesday December 13 2000, @05:56PM
  • Re:That doesn't prove anything by BlueLines (Score:2) Wednesday December 13 2000, @05:59PM
  • Re:Oops. Big oops. by BlueLines (Score:2) Wednesday December 13 2000, @07:30PM
  • Re:MAPS != censorship. by lytles (Score:1) Wednesday December 13 2000, @07:28PM
  • Re: Above net do not block them, only ORBS... by @madeus (Score:1) Wednesday December 13 2000, @11:58PM
  • Re:We're a victim too.... by Menthos (Score:1) Thursday December 14 2000, @01:25AM
  • Re:This is exactly what we want them to do. by mwa (Score:1) Thursday December 14 2000, @05:53AM
  • Re:Horay! by jpayne (Score:1) Wednesday December 13 2000, @08:42PM
  • Re:Horay! by jpayne (Score:1) Wednesday December 13 2000, @08:45PM
  • Re:Horay! by jpayne (Score:1) Thursday December 14 2000, @09:02AM
  • Re:Horay! by jpayne (Score:2) Wednesday December 13 2000, @07:33PM
  • Re:This is journalism? by gmhowell (Score:2) Wednesday December 13 2000, @05:55PM
  • >Nazis vs. Jews

    And, in fine Usenet fashion, the discussion is now over!

  • BulkIsp.com by Voivod (Score:1) Wednesday December 13 2000, @11:26PM
  • Re:This is exactly what we want them to do. by ibbey (Score:2) Wednesday December 13 2000, @06:22PM
  • Re:Many use RBL to create black-hole routes! by mistered (Score:1) Wednesday December 13 2000, @06:48PM
  • Re:The problem is the innocent victims by mistered (Score:1) Wednesday December 13 2000, @06:52PM
  • Re:Huh??? by halbritt (Score:1) Wednesday December 13 2000, @08:46PM
  • Re:You're way off base by Kvan (Score:1) Thursday December 14 2000, @05:11AM
  • by Vryl (31994) on Wednesday December 13 2000, @08:47PM (#560661) Journal
    How, then, do we apply this strategic analysis concept to our enemy du jour: the Spammer?

    First, we must translate the Five Spheres (or Rings) of the enemy system into modern Net.War counterparts:

    • Sphere 5: Fielded forces-- throwaway AOL accounts, hired consultants, dedicated spam domains
    • Sphere 4: Population-- Spam-related customers, support employees (secretaries, etc.)
    • Sphere 3: Infrastructure-- Primary non-rogue ISPs, Websites, ftp sites, cgi scripts, mail relays, reputation
    • Sphere 2: System Essentials-- Money, bandwidth, telco access, computers
    • Sphere 1: Leadership-- the SpamBoy himself, his partners and business associates
    By alliances, we mean those reciprocal relationships the spammer has formed with: news media (Cyber-Clueless First Amendment activist newbie journalists, for example)
    • other spammers
    • ISPs, whether rogue or non-rogue
    • hacker consultants
    • fringe associates (Meowers, Kook Cabal)
    • banks, business organizations, and other sources of economic power
    • politicians
    We must then examine our assumptions. If our Spammer runs his own ISP, then attacking an AOL account he controls (by complaining to abuse@aol.com) will be of negative value-- a waste of our time and resources. If his ancillary server is somehow "taken down", but his primary SpamServers keep pumping out ECP spam via open NNTP ports worldwide, what will we have gained? If he is (like Gr*bor or our own deeply psychologically troubled Doktor Funway) only marginally rational, abuse and punishment that would persuade a reasonable Yeti to leave the field of battle may only enrage the Bull(shitter) like the pricking of a picador. Finally, if we do not have the necessary intelligence to pinpoint our enemy and her crucial Strategic systems exactly, our efforts will either be wasted entirely, or increased by orders of magnitude over what they could have been with accurate and timely information. In our final strategic translation matrix, we shall endeavor to identify what we mean by a Spammer's Political, Economic and Military powers; as well as the proper role of the semi-tautological Net.War attribute of Information.
    • Political power: news media (online and traditional), lawmakers, friends and acquaintances, usenet Kooks
    • Economic power: cold hard cash earned both legitimately and by Spam; frivolous lawsuits (to tie up opponents' assets/time)
    • Military power: Net.war capabilities of spammer's own systems (mail bombs, Usenet binary bombs); hired gun hackers; open NNTP and mail servers ripe for exploitation
    • Information: Positive and Negative--> Positive: Spammer's ability to gather intel on foes; ability to adapt to changing laws, standards, and software affecting/enabling internet communication; ability to slander and defame enemies and thus provoke them to rash deeds;
    • Negative: the ability to cloak himself in anonymity, pseudonymity, and false faux-open identities, thus denying his enemies that first prerequisite of strategic analysis: identification.
    Freely stolen from: http://www.radix.net/~revjack/snotwad/snotwad3.htm [radix.net]
  • Re:This is exactly what we want them to do. by rking (Score:1) Sunday December 17 2000, @02:16AM
  • Re:This is exactly what we want them to do. by rking (Score:1) Sunday December 17 2000, @03:32AM
  • by crazy_clyde (32777) on Wednesday December 13 2000, @10:09PM (#560664)
    The idea that a tool can ONLY do "bad things" is absurd. A tool is a means to an end. AN END. Not a specific intentioned "good" or "bad" end, just AN END. This means the tool has no say in what it actually does, nor the moral consequences of such an act. The tool can only influence how well it performs at that act.

    It's NOT ok to "go after" tools, because it doesn't solve anything. If someone wants to do something, they're going to do it. You can make it difficult by trying to remove a tool that makes that end easy, but two things happen:
    1) A new tool takes it's place.
    2) The general populace stays ignorant of why the end is "bad". All they learn is that the tool that does it is bad, which we've already pointed out to be wrong.
  • Re:MAPS != censorship. by itachi (Score:1) Thursday December 14 2000, @03:17PM
  • Re:MAPS != censorship. by itachi (Score:1) Monday December 18 2000, @10:39AM
  • Re:MAPS != censorship. by itachi (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @11:50AM
  • by itachi (33131) <mwegnerNO@SPAMcs.oberlin.edu> on Wednesday December 13 2000, @06:40PM (#560668) Homepage
    Censorship is something that can only be conducted by the government. Private organizations such as ISP's or MAPS can choose to carry or not carry whatever they like.

    It's not quite that simple, though. Common carriers, although private organizations, don't have the choice to carry or not carry based on content. Now a local dialup provider is hardly a common carrier, but I would say that a tier one provider really should be a common carrier. After all, a local dialup in Peoria can't reach Bangladesh without crossing some backbone provider's network.

    itachi
  • [OT] Bible reference by Pont (Score:1) Thursday December 14 2000, @10:16AM
  • Re:A Better Analogy by segmond (Score:2) Thursday December 14 2000, @08:00AM
  • unwelcomed opensource tools? by segmond (Score:2) Thursday December 14 2000, @08:10AM
  • Re:Software DESIGNED to spam by X-Nc (Score:1) Wednesday December 13 2000, @08:47PM
  • Re:Bullshit by tiny69 (Score:1) Thursday December 14 2000, @03:52AM
  • Re:Bullshit by tiny69 (Score:2) Thursday December 14 2000, @03:00AM
  • Re:Exactly by gimpboy (Score:1) Wednesday December 13 2000, @05:39PM
  • Re:Exactly by tbo (Score:2) Wednesday December 13 2000, @05:49PM
  • "I reserve the right to refuse service" by Grand Facade (Score:1) Thursday December 14 2000, @08:21AM
  • Re:Irony Alert: DeCSS by travisd (Score:1) Thursday December 14 2000, @08:01AM
  • Re:Neural Net Spam Filtering! by look (Score:1) Thursday December 14 2000, @06:19AM
  • Re:Fuck off, Commie Pinko by Zurk (Score:1) Wednesday December 13 2000, @06:55PM
  • Re:So you check up on it.. by Zurk (Score:1) Wednesday December 13 2000, @07:15PM
  • Re:So you check up on it.. by Zurk (Score:1) Thursday December 14 2000, @03:07PM
  • Re:The problem is the innocent victims by Tower (Score:1) Thursday December 14 2000, @04:47AM
  • Re:This isn't right by Craig Davison (Score:1) Wednesday December 13 2000, @05:38PM
  • I definately do not agree - (pro-MAPS) by congiman (Score:1) Wednesday December 13 2000, @08:27PM
  • Re:Fuck off, Commie Pinko by leighjames (Score:1) Thursday December 14 2000, @07:46AM
  • Re:services like this by Greg@RageNet (Score:2) Wednesday December 13 2000, @05:56PM
  • Re:MAPS != censorship. by Greg@RageNet (Score:2) Wednesday December 13 2000, @08:34PM
  • Re: MAPS == censorship. by Greg@RageNet (Score:2) Thursday December 14 2000, @08:08AM
  • Re:I definately do not agree - (pro-MAPS) by Greg@RageNet (Score:2) Thursday December 14 2000, @09:59AM
  • by Greg@RageNet (39860) on Wednesday December 13 2000, @05:46PM (#560691) Homepage
    Censorship is something that can only be conducted by the government. Private organizations such as ISP's or MAPS can choose to carry or not carry whatever they like. The difference is of course that everyone 'owns' and funds the government which therefore has no right to moral or policical content it makes available. However private individuals have full discression over their own property and how they choose to utilize it.

    If a government library refuses to cary 'Hucklberry fin' because of it's content then that's censorship. However private organizations should not be forced to carry or not carry a given item. You cannot compel me to carry a