CDDB Joins The Bad Patent Club

An Anonymous Coward writes: "Today I received a very ominous package from GraceNote, owners of CDDB. Already infamous for turning a wonderful open project into a quagmire of heavy contracts, licensing fees, forced user registration and anti-competition clauses, the package from GraceNote contained one thing: copies of their patents, freshly awarded. "Don't even think about using FreeDB", the packaged seemed to silently imply, "because we own the patents, period." That patent? "Method and system for finding approximate matches in a database." Ouch. Thanks, USPTO." Scary: I use freedb constantly. I'd hate to lose it.

Isn't CDDB GPL?

CDDB was originally GPL right? And FreeDB still uses the original GPL code before CDDB changed their licence. The GPL states that if patents are granted they must be freely licenced. It would be interesting to see a court test this one out.

Once again: READ THE PATENT

The idea is based of CDDB, but it's NOT the CDDB database directly. The patent describes actions that a browser can take in synch with musical content that is played from a CD player. So, for example, the streaming of music lyrics to a Java applet, the synching of a music video to the music from the CD, or actions in a chat room. Yes, the idea of retrieving the CDDB database entry for a file from this could be covered, but the claims don't appear to do this. (And as others pointed out, they really have no way to defend this aspect in court). The title is very poor, as the patent's more focused on how to time and synch with musical playback, as opposed to fuzzy searching.

Sure.

Ever heard of the EFF?

Pro Bono?

Better me than them; I don't have much to lose...
---
pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate [ncsu.edu].

US patent system

What you describe is certainly what the American patent system has come to, but it was not the intention. The patent office, until recently, researched the claims in a patent with considerable care and accuracy. In principle they still have duty to do so, and frequently reject the initial patent application with examples of possible prior art, usually from other patents. Whats changed is that patent exmaminers are now encouraged, by the way they are payed to pass everything, and the patent office has poor records of the existing prior art for many fields in which they are issuing patents, especially softwate and business models.

I'd tend to agree that civil servants are not the appropriate people to determine obiousness or novelty, but, due to the great expense of challenging a patent, nor are the courts. The existing system allows patent holders to exploit their competitors for licensing fees as long as these remain below the expenditure needed to challenge the patent.

If you're going to have a patent system, and especially if you're going to allow patents in so many fields, wouldn't the appropriate thing to do be to allow challenges by interested parties during the examination process, as most European patent offices do ?

Re:Why is this scary?

See, the thing here, if you acutally follow the link for the patent, is that the slashdot story is slightly misleading as to the severity of this. Here is the patent summary...

Entertainment content complementary to a musical recording is delivered to a user's computer by means of a computer network link. The user employs a browser to access the computer network. A plug-in for the browser is able to control an audio CD or other device for playing the musical recording. A script stored on the remote computer accessed over the network is downloaded. The script synchronizes the delivery of the complementary entertainment content with the play of the musical recording.

That has nothing to do with every other database on the planet...that would be ludicrous. This is actually something that they more or less "invented" and can patent it. As for the prior license stuff, I dont pretend to know squat about that. But have no fear that this patent is trying to stop all database searches or anything like that. That would just be obnoxious and overturned in two seconds...But then again I may just be talking out of my ass. I have a habit of that.

Annoying, but probably not as bad as you think.

This patent doesn't actually read like its gonna hurt too much. I mean, I could be completely mistaken, and (oh god... about to use my first /.ism) IANAL (that hurt), but it seems straightforward enough.

Here is the abstract:
Entertainment content complementary to a musical recording is delivered to a user's computer by means of a computer network link. The user employs a browser to access the computer network. A plug-in for the browser is able to control an audio CD or other device for playing the musical recording. A script stored on the remote computer accessed over the network is downloaded.
The script synchronizes the delivery of the complementary entertainment content with the play of the musical recording.

All this does is cover the use of the browser to run an embedded plugin which grabs information from a database to show data related to the cd (or music recording). The only way this would be really bad is if they tried to claim control over non-physical recordings as well. (mp3s vs cd's)

In any case, unless your freedb access is done via a plugin in your browser, we seem to be ok.

Refused rocks

p.s. don't bother making (Funny +5) comments like "I'm going to patent breathing or whatever" We've heard it before.

Don't worry -- I patented that.

Re:Isn't CDDB GPL?

To quote,

"As I understand, the owner of a work can change the copyright/liscencing however he pleases. FreeDB can use all of its orginal code as long as the authors consent... This is why the FSF encourages people hand over ownership of programs to them..."

Then you misunderstand. IANAL, but i know my licensing, and the way the GPL works is that if i produce something and then GPL it and distribute it, then later take the program, which i do have the intellectual property rights to, and make it closed-source, pay software, then it's my right to do that. HOWEVER, what i do not have a right to do is change the licence of all the previously distributed copies. Those are forever under the GPL and my be modified without my consent or aproval.

AFAIK, the FSF does NOT ask that people turn over ownership of programs to them, as it would only be a hastle as far as i can see.

I have to wonder if the original message was intentionally spreading FUD, or if it was just FUD from ignorance... I think i'll contemplate this over a game of Tetrinet.

-benc

Re:Curious

Couple of problems. Since the original developers licensed the program that had cddb code in it under a fairly free license, doesn't that mean, that they can't later revert it?

I'm not sure what you are saying here. I think you may be confusing copyright and patent law. Or you may be raising a very interesting question regarding the operaton of the doctrines of waiver, estoppel, and/or an implied in fact or implied in law patent license.

Assume you invent something. The invention is embodied in software. First, you have a copyright on the writing -- i.e., the code. You then -- as and only as a matter of copyright law -- grant a license to others to copy and modify the code. It could be the GPL, BDS license, whatever.

Further assume that -- perhaps unknown to everyone -- you apply for a patent on your invention. The patent is awarded. Does the fact that -- again as and only as a matter of copyright law -- you licnesed others to copy and modify your code effect the validity of your patent? No.

However, the fact you licensed others to copy and use your code may effect the enforceability of your patent -- at least against your copright licensees. A court may say that you have waived any right to obtain damages against such copyright licensee. A court may find you are estopped from obtaining any damges from them for past use. (I would certainly hope, and expect so.) Whether it would prevent you from obtaining injuctive relief regarding future use is an interesting question. A court may find that you have waived such relief, are estopped from seeking such relief, and/or that you granted an implied in law or implied in fact patent license when you granted the copyright license. Again, an interesting issue.

Second, the actual database itself is composed of submissions. Unless, I explicitly disclaim ownership of the submitted data, how can cddb claim to own it? As far as I know, you need to explicitly give away rights.

They don't claim to own the information. They don't claim to have a copyright on the information. They don't, as far as I know, even claim to have a copyright on any particular database. They are claiming a patent on a method of operating, utilizing or making a database. Again, it is important not to confuse patent law with copyrhight law.

Re:"Method and system for finding approximate ...

Sorry, that's ridiculous. How can you raise ire about a patent title when the abstract describes what's actually in the patent? There is nothing in the actual patent text which has anything to do with SQL LIKE queries, which is what RDBMS vendors would be "in an uproar about." You didn't read the patent, you rushed to post something that you thought was pithy, and now you're trying to defend your uninformed posting with an unbelievably spurious argument. I didn't have to "read into" anything; I merely "read" what you posted.

The title and abstract describe what you perceive to be "two utterly different things" because you are coming after this from a semi-technical perspective. To the patent lawyers, "approximate match" may mean "related match" (i.e. a music video of a given CD, as described in the abstract), or any number of other things which do not necessarily coincide with what "approximate database match" means to you.

Language exists to provide a conduit for sharing ideas between people who have a shared world of discourse. The patent was written for patent lawyers (who have their own world of discourse unrelated to yours), not for you. That's why you seem to think that the patent title and abstract are describing different things.


~wog

Some reading might help....

Just reading through some of the comments here made laugh and laugh and laugh. Why? Everyone seems to jumping up and down about something that they haven't read properly, or only skimmed the abstract. This is just how over reactionary some /. readers are.

So lets give this some context. Firstly, the patent is for operating over HTTP or protocols to supplant or improve HTTP (section 1 of the aforementioned patent), so for all those that suggested prior art in the form of local copies, or it preventing local copies, ba-baam. Wrong answer.

As for relational databases and fuzzy matching. Wrong again.

The patent covers ways to identify unique identifiers for CDs based on the lengths of the tracks on the cds, and method for retrieving information from a network (preferably the web), based on this information. Another section of the patent is to distribute music to all users of an IRC chatroom at the same time.

So, the prior art that we are instead looking for is firstly, where there is a database containing the tracks, length, and so on, which can be identified by a unique identifier based on the time of the recordings. The last part, the unique identifiers based on the time would be the hardest part. But perhaps a music company somewhere around the world had already implemented something like this on an internal network, or a radio station with a huge cd library.... The second part of the prior art one would be wanting is something related to chat rooms, and trying to send this music to everyone at the same time. Something I know nothing about so I will leave it to someone else to think about this.

Curious

Couple of problems. Since the original developers licensed the program that had cddb code in it under a fairly free license, doesn't that mean, that they can't later revert it?
Second, the actual database itself is composed of submissions. Unless, I explicitly disclaim ownership of the submitted data, how can cddb claim to own it? As far as I know, you need to explicitly give away rights, they cannot be taken. Also, none of the CDDB programs have any sort of EULA about this?
I don't claim to be a lawyer (sorry, IANAL sounds weird) but this doesn't seem like it holds a lot of water.

p.s. don't bother making (Funny +5) comments like "I'm going to patent breathing or whatever" We've heard it before.

Donate to EFF

This insanity has got to stop, and it falls on us geeks to do something [eff.org].

Your average citizen doesn't realize how software patents affect them (and will affect them). All they see is higher prices and less innovation, but they don't know why.

Write to your elected representatives, to industry leaders, and to news organizations. We need to make people aware of how patents are stifling innovation instead of rewarding it. If you're too lazy to do any of that, please please please at least join EFF [eff.org]. They even have student rates.

Solution

Put the sites outside of the United States and Japan. In any other country that does not accept Software Patents.

There-fore use the Power of the NET.

Canada or Mexico sound like good starting points. Else only the people in Software Patent Free Countries are free to use it.

Anonymous Coward

Re:Why is this scary?

Read the damn patent.

Don't just read the abstract. CDDB claims 19 components comprise its patent, none of which extend on CDDB.

The USPTO has Full text available at this location [164.195.100.11].

Basicly the patent claims a centralised database, accessible over phone lines, of information pertaining to audio recordings, accessible through the generation of a unique key based on the lengths of tracks on that recording medium. While the patent article explains in great detail how this could be synchronized with a web browser or IRC client, the claims describe a far more generic patent that could concievably conflict with FreeDB.

Re:Donate to EFF

The average slashdot reader does not understand how patent applications work. Perhaps they look into http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/doc/general/i ndex.html to see how the system works. While may software patents, perhaps including this one, are bad, not all of them are.

The patent office is not in a position to judge right or wrong, all they can do is assure that patents are filled corrently, and that everything checks out. The court is responsible for making decisions on who is right. This is in the American system for a reason, you wouldn't want the FBI to be able to sentence criminals.

The best thing that could be done would be to shorten the terms for which software patants are valid. This would allow for protection of design, without hurting innovation.

Join the EFF is you want, but please look further into the issue than slashdot.

And moderators, just because you don't agree, doesn't mean that you should moderate this down.

stop whining and do something about it.

like it or not, patents have evolved into a corporate weapon, under the current model, how can anyone fault cddb, or amazon for patenting anything they can.

If you are sick of this model, then why not send your congressmen a letter (a *real* letter, one you wrote on paper!). Until the laws regarding copyright are changed, we are just going to see more of these patents rewarded.

Re:Why is this scary?

Let them try.

Could you pay the legal fees to stop them?

TWW

Here are the patents in question

Haven't seen links posted yet, so here they are

http://www.delphion.com/details?pn=US05987525__
http://www.delphion.com/details?pn=US06154773__
http://www.delphion.com/details?pn=US06061680__

1998 statements by cddb authors

The following are excerpts of a cddb howto from an early 1998 document by the authors of cddb, found at http://mp3.musichall.cz/download/source/informatio n/cddb.howto [musichall.cz]. Its neat what you can find with google. It seems to raise license issues.

The CDDB data format and the CDDB servers are designed to be open, and are now used by many other client application software requiring CD information. The list of CDDB-capable applications is growing rapidly and a current list of these applications is available via the CDDB web site: http://www.cddb.com/

The xmcd package and the CDDB server software are both released as free software under the GNU General Public License, and we would like to foster the concept of free software. Moreover, the public CDDB servers all run on sites that have graciously volunteered their disk space, computing and network resources, not to mention occasional maintenance and support chores, all for free.

Given this, we provide full assistance to freeware authors who desire to incorporate the use of CDDB into their software. In addition, shareware programs are also supported, because it is our understanding that shareware authors, like freeware authors, usually develop their software because they enjoy doing so, and they rarely make significant enough money from their shareware programs. Users of CDDB-capable freeware and shareware applicationa may use the public CDDB servers for free.

Commercial uses of CDDB data and/or servers are subject to negotiations with the CDDB Project. Write to us at [e-mail] for information.

The xmcd and CDDB server software are both released to the public with full source code. You may inspect the source to see how it works. but please be aware that the source code to both of these packages are released under the terms of the GNU General Public License. The full text of the GNU GPL is in the COPYING file in each of these packages.

Re:Refused rocks

Yeah, well I patented screwing your mom. But it got revoked for "prior art."

Vague, but sounds enforcable

Yes, the USPTO is clueless. But it sounds like the patent (filed July 1999, granted May 2000) applies to a wide variety of applications that link metadata to content on the Internet.

The patent description is actually more specific than some of the drivel the USPTO has granted (like one-click shopping). It clearly applies to multimedia content (e.g., music), and linking "complementary entertainment content" (e.g., most anything including ads, metadata, external links, etc.).

Yes, boys and girls: they've applied for international patents as well under the EU and WIPO. So, don't plan on getting relief from moving offshore. Although a naive (aka reasonable) point of view would think it's more expensive to pursue non-US infringers by US patent owners, in fact WIPO makes it (a) cheap; (b) biased; and (c) fast.

• Greg